No Hell Below Us: Evangelical Pastor Stirs Theological Turmoil With New Afterlife Arguments
- Posted on March 6, 2011 at 10:31am by
Jonathon M. Seidl
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“All dogs go to Heaven,” the classic kids movie suggests. But do all people, no matter what they do or don’t believe?
That’s the question haunting the evangelical Christian community after a young pastor released a video detailing an upcoming book challenging orthodox views on Heaven and hell — a book some prominent Christian leaders are calling heresy.
The book is Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. Its author, Rob Bell, has a knack for pushing the envelope and is somewhat of a theological rock star among hip evangelicals. With his rectangle, black-rimmed glasses, his widely popular and artfully-crafted NOOMA videos, and his church-wide art shows, he appeals to a younger audience often searching to challenge the faith of its parents and push Christian societal norms. He’s controversial. Love Wins is no exception.
Why? If the title didn’t give it away, the book’s description will.
“[In Love Wins] Bell addresses one of the most controversial issues of faith — the afterlife — arguing that a loving God would never sentence human souls to eternal suffering,” the books publisher, HarperOne, explains. “With searing insight, Bell puts hell on trial, and his message is decidedly optimistic — eternal life doesn’t start when we die; it starts right now. And ultimately, Love Wins.”
It continues: “What if the story of heaven and hell we have been taught is not, in fact, what the Bible teaches? What if what Jesus meant by heaven, hell, and salvation are very different from how we have come to understand them?” [Emphasis theirs]
Accompanying the description is a short, indie-style video Bell has nearly trademarked:
That description and video were enough to ignite a scathing critique of Bell — who pastors the megachurch Mars Hill in Grand Rapids, MI — by prominent Christian blogger Justin Taylor, which set off a firestorm across the evangelical community.
“It is unspeakably sad when those called to be ministers of the Word distort the gospel and deceive the people of God with false doctrine,” Taylor, vice president of Christian publisher Crossway, writes. “It seems that this is not just optimism about the fate of those who haven’t heard the Good News, but … full-blown hell-is-empty-everyone-gets-saved universalism.”
From there, other prominent Christian leaders weighed in. Some did it using three words, such as John Piper’s, “Farewell Rob Bell” tweet. Others launched into more lengthy dissections.
“Time is running out on the Emerging folks,” R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, says in a blog post. Eventually “they appear as nothing more than a mildly updated form of Protestant liberalism.” He even calls the book‘s description and Bell’s video “the sad equivalent of a theological striptease.”
“Emerging,” as Mohler mentions, is the theological camp Bell has championed. It emphasizes the love of Christ and the inclusion of the cross, but rarely emphasizes the judgment of God. The “way” of Jesus is glorified over some of his more unpopular, and challenging, teachings.
Others, while still skeptical, are leery to pass judgment.
“I’m grateful to God that Rob Bell is opening this after-life door,” Scot McKnight, professor of theology at North Park University in Chicago, writes. He says Bell’s questions about the afterlife are the same questions haunting many of his students. “The approach to this generation is not to denounce their questions, which often enough are rooted in a heightened sensitivity to divine justice and compassion, but to probe their questions from the inside and to probe thoughtful and biblically-response resolutions.”
Mark Galli, senior managing editor of Christianity Today, suggests the topic should be debated. But all conclusions must be reserved until the book releases on March 15.
“The issues raised will not go away by dismissing them as irrational or unfounded or malicious,” he writes. He also offers a word of caution: “traditionalists need to marshal arguments and not ad hominems.”
Josh Staton is executive pastor at Trinity Grace Church in New York City, a multi-site church throughout the city traditionally comprised of younger evangelicals like Bell’s. He generally enjoys and respects Bell but also understands Bell can be “provocative” — and he does see some cause for concern regarding the issues raised in Love Wins.
“There’s a lot of universalism going around, especially within the younger generation that doesn’t talk about hell much,” he tells The Blaze. “We have hell on the books but we have a hard time confining anyone there. We think of Hitler, and say, ‘of course he’s in hell.’ But after that it’s hard.”
But Staton also thinks the controversy may not be Bell’s fault alone. “To a certain degree publishers know how to sell books,” he says. “And with all this they’re going to sell a ton of books.” He admits, however, “I was definitely surprised. Looking at the video it does look a little suspect.”
Still, Staton’s “withholding judgment until the book comes out,” and believes “any attention on the fate of those who don’t believe [the gospel] should inspire evangelism.”
Like Staton, respected evangelical scholar Ben Witherington of Asbury Theological Seminary didn’t lash out at Bell. Instead, he chosen to chastise those who have critiqued the pastor before they’ve read the entire book, if at all.
“It seems that there are a ton of Christians out there in cyberspace who are prepared to judge Rob Bell before his book has even been published,” he posts on his blog. “I must say I am hugely disappointed in people like John Piper and Mark Driscoll, who also haven’t read the book yet, and yet are prepared to condemn Rob … .” [Emphasis his]
“Shame on you,” he concludes.
In the end, Witherington’s may be the most important point: the entire “content” of the book is still unclear. It has yet to be released, with many basing their critiques on the publisher’s description and the promotional video (although some such as Taylor have read a few chapters and Galli has read the entire thing). In the end, no one has talked to Bell — he’s refusing requests for comment until the book debuts.
The New York Times did read an advanced copy. And while not an authority on theology, writer Erik Eckhold offers a summary:
[T]he 200-page book is unlikely to assuage Mr. Bell’s critics. In an elliptical style, he throws out probing questions about traditional biblical interpretations, mixing real-life stories with scripture.
Much of the book is a sometimes obscure discussion of the meaning of heaven and hell that tears away at the standard ideas. In his version, heaven is something that begins here on earth, in a life of goodness, and hell seems more a condition than an eternal fate — “the very real consequences we experience when we reject all the good and true and beautiful life that God has for us.”
While sliding close to what critics consider the heresy of “universalism” — that all humans will eventually be saved — he never uses the term.
“Imagine there’s no heaven/It’s easy if you try/No hell below us/Above us only sky,” the classic John Lennon song goes. Come March 15, it might just mirror a new theological persuasion.
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Comments (956)
MrButcher
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:35amAw, the perils of making up beliefs based on no facts….
Glad I don’t have this problem.
Report Post »teahugger
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:04pmIt’s based on faith and truth…and that’s a fact!:)
Report Post »LC LaWedgie
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:31pmActually, Butcher, it takes a lot of study to prove or disprove the facts of the Scriptures. You obviously don’t have that problem, either.
You can take that from a former agnostic.
Report Post »Juniemoon
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:15pmYou do have that problem, the bible is full of facts.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:17pmYou are guilty of what you charge others with. What evidence/fact do you have there is no God? None? I didn’t think so.
Report Post »Robert W
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:47pmMr. Butcher loves articles like this. He gets to have some attention by making idiotic statements. Atheists are like little angry children standing in the corner staring at their feet refusing to look up. Actually there are very few true atheists, the majority of self described atheists just hate the idea of a God. What did lucifer say?..“I will not serve”.
Report Post »jeffile
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 1:26pmNo one can provide scientific evidence of the existence of a thought or a daydream so why is the possibility of life after death such a difficult concept? Sure, one possibly can show a change in brain activity but cannot show definitive proof of an idea or daydream. Most believe in such things because we have all experienced them but what if one could find someone who never daydreamed? How could you convince him such a thing were possible? That person would either believe you are telling the truth through faith or he would say I won’t believe until you provide scientific proof. If one disagrees of a life after death than so be it but kindly refrain from arrogant denunciations of the vast majority who do believe. I can tell you from personal experience that something does exist beyond our reality but that is my “daydream” and I can only ask that others except it on faith. What exists and what or who is there? I don’t believe that can be fully answered. I believe in gravity but no one has yet to fully explain what causes gravity.
Report Post »freedomisasfreedomdoes
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:34amSounds like he believes he knows more than God…. :( He is above God…. pretty arrogant… and self-righteous:(
Report Post »Herman_Cain
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 1:16amHow do YOU know what God’s meaning of his scripture is.
Report Post »Jimbo
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:34amThis is an LDS perspective.
Report Post »http://www.mormon.org
AxshunAce
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:10pm@Jimbo
I did not realize that the Mormon faith actually reflects Christianity. I have always been preached to that Mormons are not a Christian faith… I am glad I found out differently.
Jesus is a huge threat to the evildoers. If Jesus was a true fallacy, Mr Bell and many others like him would not be wasting their time trying to convince us otherwise.
Report Post »Highland
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:40pmNo, Ax, the LDS church is not Christian. Do not be deceived.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:14pmHe hi;
How do you explain the Church’s real name: ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? No Mormon in the name. Wise up and learn before you profess.
Report Post »mere citizen
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 7:48pmThe fact that the church is called ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” does not in itself make it a Christian church. As long as you believe the lost tribes of Israel ended up in North America, and that Joseph Smith just happened to dig up the gold plates that are about Jesus and these lost groups, written down by the Prophet Mormon, where he buried them under a tree in upstate New York.
From a Mormon Web site-Among the many chosen prophets to whom God spoke anciently, there were some in the New World, in Central America, who were descendants from the House of Israel and who knew of the long-prophesied ministry of the Messiah that would occur in Israel. The Book of Mormon is a record written by such prophets in the New World, covering (with one more ancient exception) a time span of 600 B.C. to 400 A.D.
The Book of Mormon, like the Bible, contains a record of God’s dealings with a part of the House of Israel. It contains prophecies of Christ and also reveals how Christ, after His resurrection and ascension into heaven, later ministered to those who had waited for Him in the New World. The Book of Mormon was anciently abridged by a prophet named Mormon and was engraved on gold plates, to preserve the sacred writings for a future time.
Joseph Smith received the divine commission to translate the gold plates through the power of God. The translation was published in 1830 as a volume of scripture, a sacred record. If he were a fraud, the Book of Mormon would be a ridiculous forgery, a silly 500-page witness to the stupidity of the unlearned Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon is offered as the most tangible and easiest test of the mission of Joseph Smith: he was either a forger and a con-man of the worst degree, or a prophet of God. The Church has no foundation at all if the Book of Mormon is anything other than an authentic ancient document and the word of God.
Belief on what occurs in death? t is Mormon belief that after the resurrection people will be assigned to one of three kingdoms, each having a certain degree of glory (so glorious as to be unimaginable to us), based upon their faithfulness and the completion of temple ordinances. The sun, moon, and stars represent the three degrees of glory.
In other words if you follow what Joseph Smith, great prophet that he was and the temple ordinances you get a better place than the run of the mill. No this is not Christianity. It is like Christian Science that repeats Mary Baker Eddy, or Seventh Day Adventists that repeats Ellen G. White. The Adventists grew out of group called the Millerites who prophesied the exact day that Jesus was coming back in 1843. When that didn’t occur William Miller checked his math again and decided he had made an error and it was actually 1844. Most left the group when 1844 didn’t pan out either, the remnent was headed up by Ellen White, eventually the Seventh Day Adventist group would spawn the Jehovah Witnesses.
What do Seventh Day Adventists(Millerites), Christian Science and Mormonism have in common? They all grew up in Western New York, in an area called the burned over district, an area that had repeated very emotional revivals during the Second Great Awakening. The other thing they have in common is a reliance on some sort of prophet over the actual bible. Ask any Christian Scientist what their belief is and they will start out with “Mary Baker Eddy says” Each of these groups are more vested in what Joseph Smith believed, what Mary Baker Eddy believed, what Ellen White believed and what Charles Russell believed, then in what the Bible itself says. What may be of interest as well is that many of these groups, including the Emergent Church that Mr. Bell is a part of, were from homes that initially were Congregational. You know like the old Puritans or the Dutch Reform. The not is Ellen White who was baptisted into the Methodist Episcopal church, that said the early Methodist were Holy Rollers who led the revivals and camp meetings with their circuit riders. That said there was the Orthodox Congregationalists and the Liberal Congregationalists, and guess where these prophets came from? Just like Bell they grow from a liberal protestant background. Smiths grandfather and mother leaned towards universalist views, as does Christian Science. I know, my dad was a Christian Scientist as was his mother.
Report Post »The words of each of these “prophets” are given as much weight by their followers as the Bible is. In some cases more. This does not qualify any of them, including Bells Emerging Church, as a Christian Church. They are religions no doubt, but old New Age Religions using the dressing of a Christian Church. I will also note that Spiritualism also made it appearance in Western New York. The Utopian community of Oneida was also established there, with it’s “complex marriage” theories, basically sex with multiple partners. Guess where Oneida silverware comes from? And it’s founder John Humphrey Noyes was actually licensed as a Congregational minister in 1833 before he decided that God wanted him to have a socialist life while having sex with other mens wives.
My point is that there was something specific in that area of Western New York going on religiously that multiple new religions were founded, only loosing based on anything that could be called Christian. Latter Day Saints was just one of those.
I realize what Glenn Becks Religion is, and while I find him a font of information, I cannot call his religious faith Christianity.
James83940
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 12:58amAnd behold, others he (the devil) flattereth away, AND TELLETH THEM THERE IS NO HELL; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance. 2 Nephi 28:22
Report Post »crazedbanshee
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 1:38pm@ Ax…There are many things taught in OTHER church’s about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that are not true. You should visit a meeting house on Sunday, all visitors are welcome.
@mere citizen…You were hitting it all close to on the nose when you were pulling the information from the LDS website (obviously some paraphrasing going on, the incorrect parts). “In other words if you follow what Joseph Smith, great prophet that he was and the temple ordinances you get a better place than the run of the mill”. This is way off. We believe all people will be judged by Christ and He will determine the glory an individual receives. Joseph Smith is a prophet that taught Christs word.
Lets put our differences aside for the moment and just talk about things that are in the Bible. Lets find out what each other believes about what is in the Bible. I have two scriptures I would like to start out with and find your beliefs. If you truly see me as not being a Christian this is a great opportunity for you to set me straight, I am coming to you with an open sincere heart.
What is your understanding of what Christ was trying to teach us from His prophets in these scriptures? Amos 3:7 and Ephesians 4:11-14 (as I am sure you are well aware I use the KJV of the Bible. I reference scriptures as {Book Chapter: Verse(s) in the chapter}).
I look forward to our discussions.
Report Post »YellowFin
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 2:27ammere citizen,
You come across as an authority on this quick history lesson, but you have failed to give accurate details, and have explained events incompletely which, if given, would be more instructive.
Report Post »Your history is not complete, and as a consequence, of no real value. Perhaps instead of trying to cover too much material, too many events, try to focus on just one aspect or event at a time.
toru66
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:34amDo you really want to know? Simple Jesus spoke pretty descriptively and clearly concerning Heaven & Hell, Christ by his very nature was very exclusive. “I am the Truth, and the Life, and NO ONE comes to the Father BUT through ME.” John 14:6 and the ONLY way to HIM, is through Spiritual REBIRTH, and because I was NOT a believer and was not raised in a believing way. When I received Jesus, my world changed COMPLETELY to say any other thing would be to lie. Being born-again as cliche as it seems or sounds, when YOU are SINCERE it will CHANGE you. It’s awesome, I would never trade the best day prior to my SALVATION for the worst day after salvation. No one can take the trip with you, you and you alone, must take the plunge. I am saved NOT because I am better or good now, has NOTHING to do with that, it’s I have surrendered to Jesus, HIS BLOOD SACRIFICE and HIS MERCY that saves me.
Report Post »MrButcher
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:41amYou make jesus sound like a public union representitive.
“If you want a good afterlife then you gotta pay dues to ME! Or else….”
ugh!
Report Post »ChiefGeorge
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:03pmIts rebellion in the heart that keeps us separated. God only wants you to be in his company and to fulfill his will on this earth not to be separated because of sins unforgiven. Thats up to you, God is showing you the way, but will you continue to dismiss, condemn his words? The perfect and just God who creasted everyhting in the universe cannot look upon the wicked creatures we are until we receive Christ. Free choice he has given us, its free choice that sets you free in Christ. Please make the right one brothers and sisters.
Report Post »conservativedoc
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:41pmThank you Toru66. You are a voice that shines out in the darkness. SO many have lost THE WAY that as a nation we are weakend. Yours is a perspective that unites many Christians in agreement.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:07pmMrButcher;
I didn’t see anything suggesting what you said. In fact Jesus said (render unto trumka, that which is trumka‘s and unto God that which is God’s) it’s not an exact quote.
Report Post »randy
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:33amJust another example of the left wanting to re-write everything to suit their needs.
Report Post »This guy is a wacko. And probably elated that Obama and Holder will not enforce the gay marriage laws.
He’s on his way to (H-E- Double Hockey sticks) :)
hopnmad
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:39amIf their end goal is to re-invent Christianity and they will loose.
Report Post »spartansmelser
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:33amthis guy does not know what he is talking about Jesus does not save us from God he saves us from our sin
Report Post »Stoic one
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:32amI do not think i even need to read this guy’s book.
Report Post »excelizen (a goal, not a title!)
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:31amAnother example of the nearing end… Doesn’t the Bible speak of these sorts of false teachings being on the rise in the end days… Lets hope his flock chooses a different sheppard and soon.
Report Post »ChiefGeorge
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:56amYes another false prophet if you will. Another stumbler and misleader because he has some revelation of the mind and not through the spirit which is the medium God places his word to us from the Holy Spirit. Satan speaks to the mind, God speaks to the heart. Satan trys to speak to our hearts through manipulating our minds to think and believe in things that make us activists for causes of this world thus stirring an emotional response but one not based on any spiritual truth. He‘s good at this and everything you’ve ever learned in this world has been used to stir these emotions to get you to act against Gods will and purpose. Listen only to the Holy Spirit, but you cannot hear his voice in full until you have first repented and received Christ and then this same spirit reveals much much more. Once this change takes place you are a new creature in the sight of God who see’s not a sinner but his son Christ in you. Beware of false prophets their numbers are increasing dramatically and will continue as our situation in this life begins to fall apart.
Report Post »ginsberg
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:18pmClassic christian argument chief. When confronted by facts and knowledge claim that knowledge is of the devil. This is an old practice the church has always tried to repress knowledge in order to maintain power. The book this man wrote contains a serious question…why would a god send people to hell who have never even heard about how to “correctly” become saved?
Report Post »Dale
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:11pmcounterpoise;
What FACTS do you allude to. No, God would not send anyone to Hell – each individual chooses a path and where it leads.
Report Post »TakeBackAmerica
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:35pmGINSBURG:
How do you know God does not give everyone a chance to find out how to ‘correctly’ become saved? Are you in everyone’s mind every single moment? Therefore, you cannot say God doesn’t give everyone a chance!
Report Post »ChiefGeorge
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 12:08amI like the Classics, I think I’ll stick with them instead of your new age mystic crapola.
Report Post »enidnative
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:31amIF there is no Hell, as Mr. Bell allegedly posits, then there was no need for a Saviour. Jesus Christ did not need to come to Earth as a man, teach us how to be reconciled with the Father, or die on the cross and rise again to pay for our sins. Wow! That’s some premise. If true, then Mr. Bell is charging that Christianity is a hoax. I can’t wait to hear his explanation. Fortunately, I am a sinner who believes in God the Father, in Jesus Christ as His Son, and in a literal Heaven and Hell. Universalism may buy you a sizable following, but not an “attaboy!” from the Creator.
Report Post »teachermitch32
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:52amAmen! His pronouncements negate the need for the Cross. they negate the need for reconciliation. They negate many of Jesus teachings…..“no man comes to the Father except through me”….”unless one be born again, he cannot enter into Heaven”….“for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”….oh, there are just too many to go on.
May I encourage all Blazers who are reading his book to take time comparing it with His book. Only then will you be enlightened.
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 5:18pmEnidnative,
“IF there is no Hell, as Mr. Bell allegedly posits, then there was no need for a Saviour. ”
Why do so many insist that our Creator wants to burn people in Hell?
I ask this of those who want to think, what is the penalty attached to sin? Isn’t it death? That is what God told Adam and Eve. He told them If you sin, you will positively die. He did not tell them they would burn in a hell.
In Romans 6:7 it indicates we are acquitted of our sin when we die, it is then that we pay for our sins just like Adam did.
At Romans 6:23 it says “The wages sin pays is death”
So, if we die, why the need for further punishment other than what God told Adam and Eve?
Our salvation comes when we are resurrected from the grave (hell) into God’s Kingdom.
Report Post »Jimbo
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:31amHe is right in a lot of ways. There is a hell for those who in the presents of God turn against him. For all on this earth it is a life learning experience. Your rewards are determined by your action here on earth but your glory will be in heaven. Eternal life and living for eternity are two different things.God loves his children and to have “Eternal life and progression” you have to obey his commandments. This guy is on the right track but still doesn’t get the big picture. Anyway debate is a good thing. He is entitled to his view. As long as he doesn’t say that Satan is not real, he is and he wants to destroy the family, this country and all that is good. Evil is real, and so is the love of God and his son Jesus Christ.
Report Post »Silverwolf00
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:10pmJudging by what‘s happening today I’d say Satan has the stage….. Just check out the evil that resides in the hearts of man….. Look around you drop to your knees and pray…..
Report Post »GEW
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:30amGod is Love. I was taught. Lets read the book first, and make some informed arguments pro or con then.
Report Post »hopnmad
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:37amIf you’re going to read his book then you might want to read the Bible along with it..ya know, so you can refer to the truth every now and then..
Report Post »thorenshammer
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:41amGod is also JUST… Which is why we need the salvation of Christ. Because love and good works alone just won’t cut it…
Report Post »lorihap
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:29pm@ Gew
God is love and He loves us enough to give us His word so that we might know the truth – any pros or cons that might be found in that book can’t possible outweigh the truth.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 8:46am“Because love and good works alone just won’t cut it…”
I would strenously contest this statement. “If I have faith to move mountains but have not love, I am nothing” 1 Cor. 13:2
What God wants above all is love and good works. The problem is how to attain them when you are under the bondage of sin and when your record of good works is so pittifully thin. Without the power of Christ our “good works” and “love” don’t measure up to what God desires.
Report Post »caitlynsdad
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 8:50amSince Jesus warns people about Hell quite a lot, it would appear Rob Bell needs to read the Bible first, too. Otherwise, he’s in the awkward position of saying that Jesus was either (a) misinformed, (b) a liar. Which is it, Pastor Bell? At any rate, if there is no Hell, and a loving God would never sentence me to eternal punishment, isn’t that just an excuse for me to do whatever I want?
Report Post »hikinggussie
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:29amGood to search things out, but Rob Bell is going against thousands of Bible scholars before him – there’s nothing new under the sun, Rob. Make sure you’re really studying the Bible, and not just your own wishes.
Report Post »Catharsis
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:28amThis Pastor is wrong. There is no heaven or hell – no gods or angels; they don’t exist. When you die you cease to exist. This is our only life, live it well and get over your poor sense of entitlement to a magical life hereafter.
Report Post »LadyLibertykicksASS
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:36amBelieve what you like…..When you’re taking your last breath, you’ll be praying that God will forgive you…I’ve seen it with my own eyes!
Report Post »MrButcher
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:37amThat is what the evidence suggests.
Why does it scare so many?
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:44am@CATHARSIS
I have two problems with your postings and I will say them out loud and up front.
1. I do NOT like your desecration of our flag. Please find another avatar or whatever it is called.
2. You are so wrong on spiritual matters. Please, get yourself a HOLY BIBLE, whichever translation best suits you and read it. Study it. Ask GOD to reveal HIMSELF to you, really, absolutely and totally.
I think you will be surprised at who you really are.
Report Post »RLTW
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:59amIf God doesn’t exist, why are you so confrontational towards him?
Report Post »burnteye86
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:02pmSo, what do the 13 stripes represent?
Report Post »Catharsis
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:18pmI’m not confrontational against the non-existent, I’m confronting professed believers who have a profound and mostly negative impact on society. I will confront the unsupportable ignorance that is religion because it stands against reason.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:25pmI had an atheist friend, now deceased, who told me, “If we are right, no problem; if you’re right we are in a lot of trouble”. Believe what you may, and weigh the consequences.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:32pmCatharsis;
“I’m not confrontational against the non-existent, I’m confronting professed believers who have a profound and mostly negative impact on society. I will confront the unsupportable ignorance that is religion because it stands against reason.”
Believers, such as Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson – there is a VERY LONG list. I see you think you are wiser than this group. Tell me how what they did had a negative impact on society, please.
Report Post »Protect us and build roads
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:37pm@kickagrandma: Let the Lord work in Catharsis, don’t let him/her bother you. You stay strong in the Lord.
Report Post »DestinDad
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:45pmAs a follower of Christ, I can say that in the end one of us will be wrong. What you need to ask yourself is who has the most at stake when they ARE proven wrong? For me, the only thing I have at stake is a life that was centered on goodness and love. If you’re wrong……..? Please ask yourself this question.
Report Post »RLTW
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:57pm@CATHARSIS
The problem you have with some aspects of religion are the same problems you should have with statist/communism, any religion that allows itself to be boiled down into a creed is not worthy of the individual spirit of man, mans relationship with God is a personal one an authority who acts as a counterpoise to the mess of the world and its reason.
The fanaticism of the left is far more dangerous than my relationship with God.
Report Post »hillbillyinny
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:59pmIf there is nothing after this life, what was this life for? And how did the complicated mind and bodies we and animals possess come to be out of “pond slime”? I believe we were created (not necessarily in seven says as we humans understand time since God is Spirit and outside of time), and we were created to be in relationship with God. We chose to seperate ourselves. The animals were created for us!
The “voice” (Word) of God came to earth in the form of Jesus in order that we might, “Know the Father” John 14, see especially verse 10, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”
Jesus was the complete sacrifice on the cross, dieing in Pefect Love for all, paying the sin-debt that was forshadowed in the sacrifices in the Temple previously. His sacrifice paid the debt of those who lived before he came, when he was here and on this earth to the end days. Remember God is outside of time, so His idea of “when things connect” is up to Him.
The resurrection was a promise to us that we too, who follow His command (see above) can live with him forever. We don’t know what that will be, but we do know that we will be able to Glorify and Celebrate God’s friendship with us whenever we want to.
Thnk about it.
“Love the Lord you God with all your heart, mind, spirit and soul; and, love your neighbor as yourself.” the ONLY commandment per Jesus (theology wrapped into one statement!). Do this in COMPLETE LOVE, with free will (be freely willing, not complelled), and live for ever in the “shadow” of God
Report Post »ginsberg
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 5:02pmDestindad, you are assuming that non believers cant lead a life based on love. I wont be forced into belief by threat of eternal pain, I wont place my hope in the god of the bible, who is nothing more than an egotistical child. If god ordered you to stone a man to death for picking up sticks on the wrong day, would you do it? Those following this supposedly perfect being have done so before.
Report Post »NancyBee
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 5:27pmJohn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17…For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” There is verse after verse after verse……talking about….. believing in Jesus……not perishing….and everlasting life….look it up…… Oh yeah………John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” 3… And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” CLEAR AS A BELL!
Report Post »DenzlerMedia
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 5:35pmGrandios statements like yours always grab my attention. I don’t think that anyone can claim to know that there is no afterlife. How could anyone possibly know that? I think you have faith that nothing exists after you die…but you don’t “know”. The only people that know are already dead…and they ain‘t tellin’.
If someone could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no God we wouldn’t be having this discussion and churches would be closing down all over the world.
TakeBackAmerica
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:29pmMR. BUTCHER:
The POSSIBILITY of God, heaven and hell is what scares you, because your an unbeliever,
Report Post »Why would anyone be afraaid if nothing exists after death? You wouldn’t know about it anyway! Makes no sense…but in your case, your afraid you might be wrong
caitlynsdad
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 8:44am@TBA
For once, this is something we can agree on. :) Atheists, in my view, don’t really believe that reason and science are on the side of non-belief. If that were true, then why are so many of history’s renowned scientists and thinkers all Christian? In fact, as C.S. Lewis points out, our reason itself comes from God. If you try to get rid of God, then you‘re cutting off the branch you’re sitting on. No. this appeal to “reason” is just a cover–the real reason atheists don‘t believe in God is because then they’d have to deal with their own sin. It’s much easier to cop out.
@ Catharsis–this point you make about “sense of entitlement to a magical life hereafter.” Shows you have no clue what Christians believe. No one is “entitled” to heaven. Heaven is a complete gift. If we all got what we were entitled to, we’d all end up in Hell. In contrast to the point Rob Bell makes, it is not God who “sentence[s] human souls to eternal suffering.” We do that ourselves. Again, as C.S. Lewis says, “There are only two people in the end: Those who say to God, Thy will be done, and those to whom God says, Thy will be done. All who are in Hell choose it.”
Report Post »Insanityrules
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:26amI guess you can believe whatever you want to according to this guy.
That pop up on the side telling me what to read next is a real pain in the ass. I’ll read what I want to read next. There should be a shut off for that stinking thing that continually blocks what I am reading and makes me loose my train of thought to make it go away. Did a bunch of libs hack into this site and put it there? Anyone know how to make it go away?
Report Post »teahugger
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:58ami don’t have the pop-ups you’re refering to…I have a pop-up blocker
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:36pmINSANITYRULES:
If you are using something like Firefox browser to access the Blaze, then yes, I know the specific pop up annoyance you are refering to; see about a pop up blocker with your Internet Provider service, and that should take care of the problem.
Report Post »tiredofdeception
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:38pmTry clicking the little x on the top right of the offensive pop up.
Report Post »fountains
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:24amThe fact that there will be a discussion on heaven and hell may bring many to search for the Truth.
Report Post »I see this controversy as positive.
912828Buckeye
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:07pmInteresting perspective.
Report Post »Hungry_i
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:12pmExactly, FOUNTAINS. My faith isn’t threatened by independent investigation of truth. Why must I accept interpretations of the Word based solely on tradition? Am I less of a believer in the Deity of Christ if I believe He raised Lazarus from tomb of spiritual death, rather than a physical death?
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:24pmFountains, I have to agree with the need for a open and solid discussion upon the matter; let the seeker study out the bible itself…many study aids, such as the Strongs Concordanance and the Naves Topical Bible, can aid the searcher, and I encourage them to look in a open mind, and humble spirit that God can show the word to.
Each of us must make up our own minds on the subject, and will answer according to our own choices we make. Salvation is open for all, the unmerited gift of God, yet each one of us is free to chose it or not to chose it as we deem fit.
I can only ask of seekers on the matter do as the Bareians did with Paul when he taught on the matters of faith – they searched out the teachings he preached in the word itself, to verifty and see for themselves what he said. Do not take anyones word for the final matter, search and study unto your own conclusions.
Report Post »Arminianism
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:46pmHungry,
Just curious, why do you believe that Lazarus wasn’t raised from a physical death? I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m just curious to how you have come to this conclusion. Thanks
Report Post »Hungry_i
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:39pmARMINIANISM, I‘m pointing out that an interpretation of the Word which doesn’t conform to convention doesn’t necessarily mean that it is false. After all, the Jew’s rejection of Christ is based on interpretation the the words in the Bible. While I believe that the divinity of Christ gave him the power to raise Lazarus from a physical death, the greater miracle and proof of His Station is His power to ‘raise’ the spiritual moribund to spiritual life—something He has been doing for thousands of years.
It seems to me that Rob Bell, unfettered by traditional interpretation and in consideration that God has created us to know Him and to love Him now and forever, is questioning whether Heaven and Hell represent nearness or remoteness from Him. No doubt our condition in the next realm reflects how we lived our lives in this one and how we freely responded to His call, but I believe that it is glorious for all of us, but relatively so.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 12:43amHungry_i: “…I believe that it is glorious for all of us, but relatively so.
If you are right, then Jesus was as bad at communicating his message as Obama. Which means he was either a liar or used hyperbole inappropriately. I don’t see how, “And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth“ can be considered ”relatively glorious.”
Report Post »Hungry_i
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 2:39pm@KRYPTONITE
If you are right, then Jesus was as bad at communicating his message as Obama. Which means he was either a liar or used hyperbole inappropriately. I don’t see how, “And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth“ can be considered ”relatively glorious.”
__________________________________________
So, we’ll have teeth in the next life?
Jesus communicated the message perfectly, as He illustrated in words the difference between extremes in the next realm, which cannot be imagined or expressed in this one except through words and concepts we can understand. Our anguish and suffering in the next life will be from our (self-inflicted) remoteness from God, and ascribing physical attributes to depict the ultimate consequence of our sins is rather motivational, wouldn’t you say?
I think that this world is like the womb, where we’re developing our spiritual bodies for use in the next. Unlike the physical womb, we have control over how developed our spiritual bodies become. by acknowledging God’s Word, and living in accordance with that Word. Whatever its condition, whether it is as bright as a sun or as dim as a light bulb, it will be light, which is glorious, but relatively so.
Report Post »thorenshammer
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:23amIt is obvious that this quote-un-quote pastor has not read most of the New Testament, including the book of Revelation OR he doesn’t believe in it. Ether way, he and his followers might be in for a rather unpleasantly HOT surprise upon their deaths…
Report Post »Bluebonnet
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:19pmYes, it caused me to look up passages. What I did check was about “it’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.” This verse always haunted me, but I finally understand that many (like those corrupt ones in D.C.) are getting rich off the fat of our land and it’s people may be the lost ones this verse is talking about. There’s no doubt that there is Hell for those kind of people who never ask for forgiveness.
Report Post »TheBees
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:22amI don‘t know what Bible he’s been reading? My Bible says God doesn’t send you hell, you do it to yourself by not obeying His Word! The Bible says “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;” that’s 2Tim 4:3!9 @12828buckeye, you hit the nail on the head!
Report Post »toru66
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:20amSeriously, all you need to do is read every reference that Jesus gave on Hell, it’s clear, you have to be delusional if you are a believer and think it either doesn‘t exist or it isn’t what Jesus stated…. for people on the sidelines that think their opinion is as powerful as theological/biblical studies, you need not comment, an opinion is NOT a fact.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:00pmIf you are not better now since believing then you are not a doer of the word, just a hearer and you are not a true Christian. Christ is all about doing, repenting and changing the inner man.
Report Post »hopnmad
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:19amIs Gandhi in hell? Will millions of people end up there? It’s good to ask these questions but when you begin to question whether or not something is true..you’re running alongside a cliff. Something‘s gonna give and it’ll probably be you..
Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no man can come to the Father except through Me..” (John 14:6)
If you can’t come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, then you won‘t be going to Heaven if you don’t. That may seem radical to some but it’s the truth. You‘ll either believe it or you won’t.
Report Post »disillusioned lefty
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:01pmJesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no man can come to the Father except through Me..” (John 14:6)
But what if the way of truth and light is the key to salvation and not following a man/deity. Living a life of love and compassion, following his example rather than he himself?
This is why so many of us reject Christianity. The idea that it is some special club, that someone can completely suck but they are “saved”. I have read the bible, I think Paul should be discounted entirely as anything more that philosophical discussion. The rest needs to be evaluated in context. That of Jesus as Jewish and the events of the time. We evaluate it in our context but because so much has already been interpreted and decided and us exposed, creating a context. We may not be understanding it as it is meant to be understood.
Report Post »LC LaWedgie
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:24pmIf you can’t come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, then you won‘t be going to Heaven if you don’t. That may seem radical to some but it’s the truth.
—-
Which is exactly the reason it is no mortal’s decision, Christian or otherwise, who will be given immortality and who will not.
BTW, there never was a “Jesus” — you may want to check the Hebrew alephbet.
Report Post »hopnmad
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:35pm@ Lefty
You have a good point..so why do people who live a good life and don’t believe go to hell? Why is it that people who do bad things are forgiven and go to Heaven? Simple. One refuses to come to the truth that they need to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, the other acknowledges their need for redemption and gladly receives it. It’s a choice that only you can make and that choice will impact where you end up. You need to understand that God is a merciful God and doesn’t desire that any should go to Hell – that is why forgiveness of wrongs is readily available to everyone..not because God is unfair.
Report Post »hopnmad
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:38pm@ LC
God has given man free will – it is a choice. God has presented the truth and it’s your choice not to believe it.
Report Post »redhead2
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:38pmdisillusioned lefty I am sorry that you feel that way. When I came to this country I barely spoke English and definitely did not believe in God. However, He is gracious and put me into someone’s way who was a Christian man. I started reading the Bible and understood every word of it, the meaning of every word was clear. I believe that the Bible was written so that even children can understand. So why read things into it that’s not there? Or, for that matter, why take things out of it that’s there? The Bible is what it is, it’s the truth. Jesus is the only way to be with the Father. There is no other way. Believe me, that was the hardest part for me, to say that I am a sinner and I need God’s forgiveness. We all have pride, we all think we deserve to go to Heaven. Well, we don’t. Also, there is a Heaven and there IS a hell. And if someone asks “how could a loving God send someone to hell?” My answer is, He is not sending anyone to hell. We are all God’s creations. He gives us free will and we can choose to become His children. If people chose not to belong to Him, not to love Him back I say it was their choice to go to hell. Now why would this be God’s fault? Open your mind as a little child and try not to make it complicated. The message of Christianity is the most simple and the most beautiful one. If I may, I would like to suggest a documentary, it’s called “To hell and back”. It’s a very interesting one.
Report Post »http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4861697223337653283# and another one which I really like is called “Father’s Love Letter”. Enjoy. http://www.fathersloveletter.com/video.html :o)
LC LaWedgie
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:32pm“…so why do people who live a good life and don’t believe go to hell?”
—
Apparently reading for comprehension is not one of your strong points, while your Christianity-induced ability to make snap judgment by taking the entirety of Scripture out of context shines like a beacon.
Report Post »hopnmad
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:53pm@ LC
I feel sorry for you..it really takes a miserable, bitter person (such as yourself) to knock what someone believes. You are free to your opinion just don’t share it with me.
Report Post »LC LaWedgie
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 3:02pmHeh – I may be miserable and bitter, but at least I‘m not judging a person’s eternity -
“Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
“Vengeance is mine.”
sayeth who, you?
Report Post »hopnmad
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 3:06pm@ LC
I quoted scripture (John 14:6) so it isn’t my opinion – it’s what God says..if you care to argue more take it up with Him.
Report Post »Automan
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 5:21pmldlawedgie
Report Post »you say “there never was a Jesus” this is a choice you make.
numerous historians would be shocked to find that out, since they actually saw Jesus and wrote of Him point in case Flavius Josephus.
now ignorance (when it is actually stupidity that you choose) is not going to be an excuse when you have heard of Jesus, Immanuel, the Son of God, the Christ, the Angel of God, the Word of God, which ever name you want to call Him by. You have made your choice be willing to live eternity with that choice.
JJ Coolay
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:05pmLC wrote: Which is exactly the reason it is no mortal’s decision, Christian or otherwise, who will be given immortality and who will not.
BTW, there never was a “Jesus” — you may want to check the Hebrew alephbet.
________________________
First of all, we’re all immortal because we have been born with a soul. Our physical body will die but we will not.
Report Post »Secondly, what does the alphabet have to do with the existence of Jesus? I don’t follow your point, but you could try to look up Jeshua. I’m no Hebrew scholar but I think that was his name in the Hebrew language. Regardless, I don’t see what the alphabet has to do with it?
Jesus’ life and death –and resurrection for that matter–are very well documented by MANY eye witnesses.
Chet Hempstead
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 12:31amHow do you know it’s the truth? How do you know that Jesus said it just because it says so in a book that was written at least fifty years after he died? I’m not trying to mock your faith, just pointing out that that’s all it is – faith. There’s no real reason to think that your beliefs are any truer than this clown’s feel good hooey.
Of course, even if he did say it and it is the truth, that doesn’t mean Gandhi is in hell. He was raised as a Christian and even studied for the ministry before forming his own philosophy. You could certainly consider that going through Jesus, though not in the way a fundamentalist would mean it.
Report Post »JJ Coolay
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 10:24amChet, the old testament, which prophesied of Jesus coming, death, resurrection and miracles were all written hundreds of years before his life. So, yes, while the new testament was written after his time on earth, the old testament is what should make people realize the validity of the new testament. It was foretold even before it happened and then it came to pass. Read Isaiah. Written in the 700s BC. It has 395 verses of fulfilled prophesy. There are many verses of unfulfilled prophesy as well, but that is because we have not yet reached the end time.
Report Post »Of course, believing this takes faith. But that’s the whole point of Christianity. Christ wants us to put our trust in Him. But the bible is there to show us He is real.
Jim AZ
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 4:56pm@disillusioned lib:
Report Post »Your reasoning is largely sound. We are instructed “to reason one with another”. Christ instructed us to follow him, “even as ye have seen me do”. Much of Christianity seems to forget that, and focus on the name of the club. I can tell you that the name is correct. The love is what is important. Knowing the plan of God, the role of Christ, and our relationship to them is sustains, enhances, and strengthens a person’s love, character, decisions–When that person seeks to make the most of it.
912828Buckeye
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:11amSo I guess you can do what ever you want to do in this life
Report Post »and there will be no repercussions in the next. I think this guy
is trying to start his own new mega buck church/ following.
Marylou7
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:57amSounds like Oprah’s church to me. Personally I believe in Hell and I don’t want to go there.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:17pmMarylou7;
I hope NOT to see you there.
Report Post »NancyBee
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 5:00pmJohn 6:47-48 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life.”
Report Post »cameronteeples
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 12:37amI think people are missing the point of what this guy is saying. Frankly I have a really hard time believing that most you are better people than Gandhi. No offense. Gandhi did incredible amounts of good, and never tried to sway people from their own personal beliefs. The savior himself said that a bitter tree cannot bring forth good fruit, nor can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. So frankly for people to say that Gandhi in essence is screwed because he didn’t accept Christ in this life is to say that Christ will burn amazing people, but that normal people who are ok, never did much, but accepted Jesus are saved. What a tragic misunderstanding of the savior’s mercy.
There have been way to many people who have lived and died without ever even hearing the word Jesus for that to be the way it is. That’s all this guy is trying to say, and frankly that sounds much more like the loving savior I read about in the scriptures.
Report Post »UrsaMajor
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 6:30amThe last two weeks in church we have been studying Peter II, Chapter 2.
It’s all about how to spot false prophets.
I suggest everybody read, study and pray.
Report Post »seminator
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 12:28am@Cameronteeples
Report Post »Nobody is saying we are better people than Ghandi. what is being said is what Christ himself said. “I am the Way the truth and the Life. NO One comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.” (John 14:6-7a)
You said, ” Gandhi did incredible amounts of good, and never tried to sway people from their own personal beliefs. The savior himself said that a bitter tree cannot bring forth good fruit, nor can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. So frankly for people to say that Gandhi in essence is screwed because he didn’t accept Christ in this life is to say that Christ will burn amazing people, but that normal people who are ok, never did much, but accepted Jesus are saved.”What a tragic misunderstanding of the savior’s mercy.” According to this logic Jesus Christ died in Vain. All throughout the history of the old testament and the Bible God’s promises were conditional. God promised the Israelites that if they would worship him alone he would protect them. He also made their salvation conditional on following his laws. Jesus Christ eased the condemnation of the law by taking on the sins of the world. The only condition to being saved now is that each person believe that He died and rose from the dead to redeem us, confess that we are sinners,repent of our wicked ways (the ways of this corrupt world), and be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. If a person has not had the opportunity to do this, then it is between God and himself. If a person has had the opportunity, but refused to do so, then his/her destination is on their own heads. God does not want anyone to go to Hell, but, if you chose to disregard his commands, or think your works will get you to heaven, then you have only yourself to blame.
Capt_Spalding
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:11amActually it’s a classic John Lennon song… not the Beatles.
Report Post »BizPublisher
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:33amWhich pretty much should put this author’s validity into question given how thouroughly he researches. Sad.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:04pmTrue, but does it matter? NO!
Report Post »Soldier_FORTHERECORD
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:10am… wonder how much he’s making off the book vs. giving to charity.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:15pmHe IS a charity.
Report Post »ImahaIngttta
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:08amEveryone gets a trophy mentality.
Report Post »toru66
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:41amYes you’re right, Jesus called it a Crown!
Report Post »QuantumVerp
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:08amKISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
If you have cultivated and maintained the core of your Being, then when you die you may have the necessary vehicle to continue living on in ‘parallel’ universes or whatever you want to waste time naming it…
Report Post »LOOKING_BOTH_WAYS
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:31amThat’s too Complicated …lol…….I’m joking
Report Post »Showtime
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:53amI believe what I believe.
Report Post »And whatever shall be will be.
QuantumVerp
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:58amTruth is Truth before anyone ‘believes’ it is Truth or even if no one believes it is Truth.
Seek and you shall find. (Truth)
Fill your Soul with Truth or feel your ego with beliefs…
Report Post »Bluebonnet
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:31pmJust another example of the warning that “many will come in my name and deceived us for lack of knowledge.”
Report Post »justbecause
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:42pmPlease direct me on the path of TRUTH, I have followed many paths looking for TRUTH only to be disappointed. It seems that TRUTH has many disguises. The disguise that fools me more than others is, man talking in certain terms about God. When I find such a soul I know we are both on the wrong path. I hope that when I finally find the TRUTH I’m not too dead to enjoy its presence.
Report Post »thegrassroots
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:15pm@ justbecause
Report Post »You’ll find that TRUTH you are looking for in The Bible. And, mere man can be certain about God, because — God Is Certain! John 3:16-17
Old Truckers
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:28pmjustbecause,
Do you really want to find the TRUTH?
Report Post »Pray to your Creator through His Son, Jesus. Ask for His direction and guidance. IF you are sincere, he will show you where the TRUTH is.
He will not guide you to a falsehood if you are a true sheep.
John 10:1-14
Eliasim
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:55pmAnd maybe you will get there in the belly of a whale if you listen to the right people.
Report Post »mill
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 10:20pmAnd exactly how do you do this?
according to every religion if you’re not one of them..you’re dead meat anyway.
Silly people arguing over what they have no idea about.
life actually did start manymanymany years before christianity…
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 12:03pmMill,
Our Creator will not drag you to the Truth. Especially if you have a attitude of defiance or criticism of His righteousness or mockery of His Son, Jesus.
Report Post »John 6:44 and it’s context indicates that if a person really wants to find the truth about God and His Son, he will make make it possible. The True God will draw you to the TRUTH.
I know it to be true!
QuantumVerp
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:04amKISS
If you still have your Soul when you die you may continue living.
Period.
Report Post »jblaze
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:29amThe truth shall set you free!
Report Post »Part 1
http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=7982.6601.0.0
Part 2
http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=8039.6664.0.0
Catharsis
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:34amThe existence of an after life is highly doubtful. Your mind is responsible for who YOU are. Once your heart ceases to beat, you brain also ceases to function, thus you die and all that you were is gone. Nature points to this, and your nonsensical superstitions have no ground to stand on. God is dead.
loadingmyclips
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:35amYes, if you have not destroyed all the good in your soul by the time of death, I believe that you will be rewarded. Only those who have succumbed to worldly ways and lost their goodness, will suffer the pains of “hell.”
Report Post »HardcoreAlexJones
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:38amThere is no death, because there is no life.
This is an illusion.
The only thing that is real is God, and he is Nothing.
Nothing is real.
Satan‘s hell is not man’s hell.
Satan’s hell is in proportion to Satan, and consists of the largest Black Hole in the Universe, where all the pressures of space and the heat of every star in the universe combine in the end of the world.
Man’s hell is in proportion to man, and consists of the center of the Earth, there lies Abbadon/Appolyon (Apollo) who will reemerge from the bottomless pit at the end of the world, who will torture those who don’t have the seal of God on their foreheads, and who will seize Satan and bind him in the bottomless pit for 1000 years, while Jesus Christ rules over the Earth.
In Revelation 20:2 he “laid hold of the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years”.
After that millennia, Satan will be cast into his hell, and condemned man cast into the Lake of Fire, a lava pool that encompasses the New Jerusalem.
NickDeringer
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:41amHere’s the scoop on Rob Bell. Among other things he has serious doubts about the deity of Christ.
http://www.equip.org/hank_speaks_outs/emergent-church
Report Post »HardcoreAlexJones
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:44amLife is based on electricity.
Electricity doesn’t stop when your heart stops. It goes to ground (lowest electrical potential; zero point).
Everything is a extremely high-resolution (Planck Scale) hologram.
Therefor life is an illusion. Death doesn‘t exist because life doesn’t exist.
The only thing that exists is God.
God is Nothing.
This is a virtual reality simulator.
SPOT_OF_TEA
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:52amIt seems like a lot of people living a non Christian lifestyle want to call themselves Christians for some unknown reason.
OneFootRandy
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:53am@Catharsis, Congratulations on proving yourself wrong. If God is dead, that means he was once alive, however, if God was alive, he is alive for God does not live or die as you and I know it.
Report Post »QuantumVerp
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:54am@catharsis
You are not very well studied I see, perhaps if you would read some of the leading physicists of this day you may be able to admit to a fraction of ‘parallel universes’ they are alluding to…
I do not believe in ‘belief’. Belief is used to support the not apparently True leanings of groups…
I know, I go to Heaven regularly :)
Eckankar would be a religion I would pursue if I felt any need to. I’m a Theosophist.
Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:59amIn the matter of life after the death of the body, I will suggest this to anyone interested in the studies of the matter…look through the bible itself on the topic of death, the soul, salvation, and resurrection using a Strongs Concordanance, and a Naves Topical Bible…some of these are availible online as well and can simplify the searches…then decide for yourself.
Take no one elses word as solid proof; research the matters for your own edification and satisfaction.
jbl8199
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:03pmThis guy is no Christian if he believes that. One of the things that the Bible has been VERY clear on is there IS a Hell. In fact it talks about Hell more than it does about Heaven. Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man? He should read his Bible more often.
Report Post »GONESURFING
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:14pmWe will find out sooner or later, but God is love, as stressed in the Bible. However, we can’t be picky about witch scriptures that we believe or not. Have heard this view in the 70s, and Paul in the New Testament does talk about God having the power to redeem ALL things. Also in the New Testament there is talk of rewards and lack of rewards. But better to be safe than sorry. Jesus is the answer.
LostOneironaut
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:14pmhe’s going to hell
Report Post »Ironmaan
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:29pmCatharsis—
Report Post »You attempt to use logic to explain why there is no afterlife ( a poor attempt), and then you use zero logic when you deny a creator and ignore the fact that you exist and thus needed to be created. You are brain dead.
http://guerillatics.com
Bearfoot
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:36pmThe Bible writer Paul offered hope of relief from that “last enemy,” death. He wrote: “Death is to be brought to nothing.“ ”The last enemy to be abolished is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:26, The New English Bible ) Why could Paul be so sure of that? Because he had been taught by one who had been raised from the dead, Jesus Christ. (Acts 9:3-19) That is also why Paul could write: “Since death is through a man [Adam], resurrection of the dead is also through a man [Jesus Christ]. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.”—1 Corinthians 15:21, 22.
“Hell” is an english word and we know what it means in english. But the original words are Hebrew sheol and Greek hades. Sheol and hades both mean the grave or pit. The original words do not suggest a place of fire.
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:48pmHad Adam and Eve been in danger of burning in hell, would not God have warned them about such a punishment? The fact is that he mentioned nothing about suffering after death. How could they suffer? They did not have immortal souls that would survive after death. The Bible makes this very clear: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.”—Ezekiel 18:4
When we die, there is no consciousness. We await the resurrection when it is time for it to occur.
thegrassroots
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:50pmThe day will come, Rob Bell, when you get to explain to Jesus why you and your word over-rides Him and His Word. And, how about all of those folks you’ve deceived by spreading your word instead of His Word? Wouldn’t want to be in your shoes, on that day.
Just keep in mind, Rob — eternal decisions need to be made this side of Eternity. So, as long as there’s breath in your body, you’ve got a chance. No Breath Equals Too Late! For your sake, I hope it works out for ya. All of this to say — What If You’re Wrong?
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:56pmAs the Giver of life, our Creator knows all there is to know about life and death. He tells us in his Word that “the dead . . . are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) That is why Adam and Eve could not suffer in a fiery hell after their death. They simply returned to the dust and ceased to exist. They were “conscious of nothing at all.”
Report Post »LostOneironaut
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 12:57pmSatan’s best trick – convince the world he doesn’t exist.
The following is what I believe so take it as you like. I’m not the type to push my beliefs on others….
God doesnt send people to hell. He gave us freewill. People go to hell because they choose it. Jesus saved us from our sins for those that wish to be saved. He showed us the way to heaven, but in his grace, mercy and love he allowed us the decision to do what we want. If you choose to not believe, then you choose hell. And that is what you will get. Make no mistake God wants to see all his children in heaven, but what kind of dictator would he be if he forced you to be there when you dont want to be.
and as far as science goes….
science is not the enemy of “religion.“ in fact science is getting us closer to finding the ”signature of God” if anything. evolutionists claim we all came from goo. but obviously they are unaware how complex the cell is. the cell is a complicated machine made of parts that could not function if built over time. all the parts had to be there at the same time for it to work.
people live on a perfect earth that was made under perfect conditions in a perfect spot in the galaxy within a perfect universe. not only so we could survive, but also so we can explore his creation.
it is naive for anyone to say when we die our organs no longer function and we just cease to exist. even scientists today are studying m-theory. the theory of parallel universes. is it true? i dont know. BUT its a possibility. It could be that heaven and hell are in different dimensions. Maybe when we die the vibrating membranes in our bodies (which maybe is what the bible refers to as our soul) vanish into these other dimensions (which they are suspected to do by these same major scientists)
and maybe the level they vibrate at depends on whether you go to heaven or hell because maybe they only vibrate the right way when you accept Christ. I dont know thats just another fun theory to explore from the scientific view. or maybe its all purely magical and our souls just do vanish into heaven or hell.
Anyways its obviously more complicated than what these atheist simpletons allow themselves to realize.
Report Post »LostOneironaut
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:01pmmany of you have probably read the book “the shack” by paul young. my parents recommended it to me. however something felt wrong about it so i also read the book “burning down the shack” by a different young. turns out “the shack” also has a hidden universalism to it.
READ “BURNING DOWN THE SHACK” if you want reasons why the devil and hell really do exist.
Report Post »ginsberg
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:08pmonefootrandy, the phrase “god is dead” is an old philosophical saying coined by Nietzsche. It refers to the concept of the Christian god being dead , to oversimplify the matter. Also Nietzsche was fond of wordplay and enjoyed the conundrum the phrase presents.
Report Post »AzDebi
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:11pmIn order to deny that there is a Hell, you have to deny the writings of the Bible…In order to deny the writings of the Bible,.you must deny history…In another 2,000 years people will be proclaiming that Christopher Columbus never lived!
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:15pmFaith Wins, Period.
Bell resembles the serpent who questions Eve about what God said.
EVERYTHING we NEED to KNOW is in the BIBLE. We don’t need someone else book. Yet curiosity gets will get the best of you. Satan works through our peers.
Report Post »LostOneironaut
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:20pm@poverty.sucks
in “burning down the shack” young quotes passages from the bible to prove the existence of hell. so do what you must and read what you must to further educate yourself.
Report Post »Highland
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:34pmJust another in a long line of heretics.
Report Post »kalicopete
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:36pmJBLAZE – Cults don’t have an answer…
Report Post »Dustyluv
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:41pmThis guy is an Evangelist? You gotta be kidding me. As a former Pastor I could make mincemeat out of that short video. The Bibke’s main mssage is NOT about hell, it’s about salvation through Jesus Cjrist alone for the attonement of your sin against God.
Report Post »Make no mistake Mr Bell, there is a hell and yes unless Ghandi accepted Christ as Savior he is indeed there. The good thing about God is that He never gives up on us until we breathe the last brath. So you idiot not believers still have a shot. Just don’t wait to long, a bus may take your sorry a@@ out…
Bearfoot
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:52pmQuantumverp,
re: your first post;
In the Bible, “soul” means the entire person—not something separate from the body. Genesis 2:7 says: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” Adam was not given a soul apart from his body. Rather, Adam himself was a living soul.
Report Post »1TrueOne55
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:02pmThis reminds me of the Heresy trials in the 3rd Century of Athanasius. He was preaching that Jesus was not with God during the Creation but he was of God. They argued for nearly 10+ years on that subject until Constantine the Roman Emperor at the time forced them to make a decision. And we have todays Doctrine on the “HOLY TRINITY”, the “Catholic” church calls it the Nicene Creed. And if you don’t believe it you are not ______, well you can see where that went.
So the Church is not without controversy, especially when it deals with the Afterlife. It is my opinion that eventually ALL Humans will stand before the Throne of God and that Throne is in Heaven, since it is his eternal Kingdom, but not all will have a residence in his Kingdom. But all will have eternal life some in Happiness (Heaven), some in perpetual Agony (Hell, Lake of Fire), but all “Souls/Spirits” will live on forever.
Not every Religion has the complete answer to the afterlife since they all make up the totality of the Human Experience. And that is what God designed when he confused the Tongues/Languages at Babylon after the Flood.
Report Post »P C BE DAMNED
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:07pmThe bible says the wages of sin is death and death is everlasting to those who get these wages. But the GIFT of God is eternal life. These are your choices. Hell also is literally the Grave. Its not hard to discern as other words such as kill is literally defined as thou shalt not MURDER. It explains alot to just do basic study. Then there are those who let the preacher or church tell them what the word of God means. This is where all the confusion comes in. If you don’t study for yourselves you will never know. Either way there are two choices for the great beyond and that is life for those who get on the plan of salvation and those who do not. It is SIMPLE.
Report Post »Cymry
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:17pmWhen I was four years old, I overdosed on my mother’s valium. I remember being in the operating room with the big light and someone behind me putting a mask to my face. My heart stopped for several minutes and I had what is commmonly called a “near death experience”. I (my spirit) went to heaven and I walked and talked with Jesus. There is a Heaven and a hell. If you choose Jesus as Lord and Saviour and confess your sins to Him, you go to Heaven. Die without Jesus and you go to hell. It’s no more complicated than that and it IS an eternal decision. I pray you choose life, that you choose Jesus.
Report Post »leftiesaredangerous
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:28pmI have a suggestion for him and his followers; dress light and take sun block.
Report Post »Remnant
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:29pmTo LostOneironaut,
It looks like we read the same stuff. Interesting, isn’t it?
I am a Bible-believing (not Bible-thumping) Christian, and I realize that this description itself sounds rather wishy-washy. But because there are so many different views and so little “provable” facts, I am content to leave judgement–final and otherwise–to Jesus Christ. He is the Way, and that’s where faith comes in.
Nor do I believe that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. I believe one informs the other. (For those interested, a good book on the matter of faith and reason is Total Truth by Nancy Pearcy.) It is unfortunate that there is such a “divide” between some believers and non-believers–a topic unto itself.
But the bottom line for believers, in my view, is to cooperate with God in the process of being “conformed to the image and character” of Christ.
Report Post »Robert W
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:41pmWolf in sheep’s clothing.
Report Post »Old Truckers
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:43pmSo far, the only guy who is actually trying to teach here is blacktooth. Everyone else is just giving their own opinions based on what they personally believe. Maybe we should actually read the Bible. There is so much confusion!
Report Post »docvet
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:54pmHe’s just trying to answer the concept that most Christians avoid: ” How is that hell is full of the 99.999999999% of all the humans that have lived on this planet and heaven has only a few of the devout Christians haht have lived in the last 2000 years. “Everybody’s crazy but thee and me, and somethimes I’m not so sure about thee”.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 2:59pmSatan desires to have YOU, that’s LOVE, if love is all you need. If love is what Bells selling, Bell loves YOUR MONEY.
Where you place your faith determines weather or not you’re saved.
Report Post »Believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God our creator. Believe what he has taught. Then you’ll believe that he will be victorious in the final analysis. If that faith isn’t present, you’ll be swept along with the world system.
tower7femacamp
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 3:15pmread not least you be read …
Report Post »tower7femacamp
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 3:25pmIs there really a hell ?
Report Post »and if so how many from Goldman Sachs traders will end up there ?
watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 3:33pmRob Bell is part of the heresy that is the emergent church movement !!!! He preaches a gospel other than that of the bible. His gospel is the same deception of Satan in the garden when he questioned Eve about what God said. The Serpent said you shall not surely die for God knows when you eat of the fruit you will be like him. Seems Satan has just repackaged and re-branded.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. Matthew 23
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 2 Corinthians
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! Galatians
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith. 1 Timothy
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20
Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Revelation 22
poverty.sucks
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 3:38pmBells sequel will be, If so many cool peole are going to hell (where ever it is), then it can’t be that bad!
Report Post »Chrono_Sleuth
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 3:47pmI may not be Christian, but let’s look at things this way, we are all responsible for our own salvation, no one else. If this is his viewpoint and his vision of God, let it be. The beauty of Christianity, particularly in modern times is the ability to have different perspectives. Yes, some may be an affliction of evil, such as “collective salvation” however, the thing to remember is this. First and foremost, the divine inspiration and direction of Christianity is Jesus. Before all the theological books that come after him, his word is THE word. His path is THE path.
So perhaps the best thing to do is ask ourselves this: Can we really judge before we really understand the direction he is going in?
Perhaps the second is: How much do we know about the history of Christian beliefs? Much of what mainstream Christians of today believe is rather different from 1,000 years ago, let alone just after the death of Jesus.
Perhaps then a debate on what changed and why? Maybe an open discussion on what Christianity really is. Just because this pastor misses many lessons and many key points and elements from what we see in the video, does not mean his book does not address them.
Just remember, if we cannot question and study and learn of our own faith, and find out what we believe in apart from what a pastor, preacher, priest, reverend, etc. teaches, how can any of us stand before God?
If you’re worried about your children, this is the key element of Judeo-Christian thought. Family is life, family is everything. The first teachers are the parents. If you teach them to think for themselves and work out problems on their own, likely they will choose the right path and listen to their hearts and head before taking any path.
Report Post »jblaze
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 3:57pmKALICOPETE
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 1:36pm
JBLAZE – Cults don’t have an answer…
You could call every religious group on this planet a cult! Look the word up in the dictionary. Prove what is said is Biblically faults! Don’t just make an accusation or faults assumption and run away! That is just what all of Beck’s critics do, even when he shows the proof right before your eyes! PROVE ALL THINGS! Question with Boldness!
Report Post »waggie
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 4:17pmThe Bible is very clear on this issue. Please look up Romans 10:9-11. There are also many, many verses that relate to heaven, telling us that there is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ the Son. Please look it up for yourselves. The Bible also tells us that in the last days there will be many false prophets and those that will try to deceive us. I believe Mr. Bell is one of those people. It isn’t by what we do that will get us there, it’s by what Christ already did. He paid the price for us already, all we have to do is ask for forgiveness. I urge you all to look it up.
Report Post »bluegoldnationdotcom
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 4:20pmSomehow this chump trumps the Bible? What a joke. No human knows the mind of God and it is supreme audacity to use your own moral relativism behind the pulpit to promote false doctrine.
Report Post »bluegoldnationdotcom
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 4:22pmAlso this video has 819 views, for what reason exactly does the blaze find it necessary to give this jerk a bigger platform?
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 4:32pm@ BLUEGOLD………..even though this clip may have only 800 or so views this movement and teaching is growing very quickly within what is known as the emrgent church. It is a heretical movement that is essentially moral and theological relativism (humanism) dressed up to look like Christianity !!! It is very dangerous and a rapidly growing movement. Now is it Blaze worthy I don’t know, but it is no small idea in America currently and that alone may make it important to discuss.
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 4:40pm@BlueGold Mormons get away with it all the time. They advise their members no tobacco, caffeine, alcohol Ect… Yet they have no problem pushing those products on others for the greed of money.
poverty.sucks
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 4:42pmLove of Money
Report Post »bluegoldnationdotcom
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 4:44pm@WATCHTHEOTHERHAND
I understand where you are coming from but I don’t agree. He is being given a bigger audience by his promotion here. It is like when Christians go out and boycott movies or books. All that it ends up doing is giving the movie or book more exposure.
Any publicity is good publicity for someone like this who is looking to sell books or a message. This guy is a hack and he should be ignored.
Report Post »godlovinmom
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 4:50pmoh no.. here we go again…when you start following a man’s idea…your problems start…read God’s word yourself and pray for wisdom…Love seeing so many believers! :0)
Report Post »veruca salt
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 5:05pmHokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good blaster at your side. -Han Solo
Report Post »Norden
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 5:08pm@ Catharsis
That’s kind of begging the question, isn’t it?
Report Post »Automan
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 5:09pmdustyluv
Report Post »well put and I did not come to God out of fear of Hell (although i knew of its teaching) I came because he called and was gracious enough to allow me and my family to fall under His leadership.
read the book “A shepherd looks at Psalm 23” it is amazing how difficult the Christian life can be sometimes, but how peaceful it is at all times when you have a loving God for a leader or shepherd.
CrazyJ
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 6:19pmJesus taught about hell, quite a bit in fact. This pastor is is creating his own false gospel, period.
Report Post »QuantumVerp
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 6:20pm@JBLAZE
I went to your links and haven’t watched the hour total of videos. Probably won’t. The site seems to be a religious ‘againstism’ site. I don’t practive any isms, much less religious againstisms. Get it?
GOT IT!
Free your self from resolution to any group and/or group mores. Be low. Look up from your station at groups! Honor them, but with caution. Realize they are always so big and they grow bigger or die, so they will end up stepping on you and squishing you like the bug you will become, or withering away to meaninglessness, with all your Soul’s investment in them gone, like any bad investment…
Report Post »DTOM_Jericho
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 6:33pmLet me make it clear to all you Greek mythology believing christians. There is no eternal torment. There is no immortal soul. Please provide the words “immortal soul” anywhere in Scripture. Scripture is clear that you “sleep” in the grave. I’m not going to go into the hole Hebrew word sheol vs the Greek hades. Quite frankly you should be doing your own research and this comment system sux especially on mobile. Just think about what you are saying about God… if maybe you were a good guy but didn’t believe in him, you get no mercy and endless torture the same as hitler! And to top it of, the number 1 offender of all time gets his own kingdom to rule and torment? My God is a merciful and I will not worship your sadistic pagan “god”
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 6:47pm@LOSTONEIRONAUT You said “evolutionists claim we all came from goo. but obviously they are unaware how complex the cell is.” Have you been living under a rock? How did you come to the conclusion that an “evolutionist” doesn’t know anything about a cell.
Report Post »“Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” – Theodosius Dobzhansky
There’s a whole field of evolutionary science focused on the molecular and cellular changes that link species… I’m a molecular biologist and I have seen this evidence personally… I have seen human genes spliced into yeast genomes that maintain function, whereas other genes are incompatible showing what is evolutionarily conserved and what genes have evolved towards the specific nature of our species… some genes are almost interchangeable in all species since we come from a common ancestor!
mill
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 6:59pmWELL!!! we won’t know until we get there..\
Report Post »dr_funk
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 7:00pmIf everyone goes to heaven, then why did God send his only son Jesus Christ to save us?
If you do not accept Christ as your savior, then you are judged by your sins alone, and will therefore go to hell.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 7:08pmDTOM………is obviously ignorant of the original language and what Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John taught concerning the eternality of the human soul. He is obviously, in a condescending way toward others, showing his ignorance of what the meaning of the lake of fire and the second death is that scripture refers to. He is also not obviously aware of the teaching of Jesus on the Jerusalem dump of Gehenna and what this meant to Hebrews of that day. He also is not aware of the teaching of Christ that we are to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell. He is also unaware of the parable Jesus taught on Lazarus and the rich ruler about his final destiny. Hell in the sense of Sheol does mean the common grave , however, you fail to know the meaning of the second death or the Lake of fire my friend. You also attack the character of God when you assault his Justice by suggesting there is no eternal hell (American connotation). If there is no eternal hell then there is no eternal heaven it is as simple is that, you cannot teach one exists and the other doesn’t and remain exegetically precise in your scripture meanings without compromising their original intent. Yours is also not the historical position going back to the earliest church fathers.
http://www.bible.ca/H-hell.htm
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 7:35pm@ CESIUM…………You have stated a logically inconclusive statement about the presence of vestigial genes and species specific genes. You stated………….” I have seen human genes spliced into yeast genomes that maintain function, whereas other genes are incompatible showing what is evolutionarily conserved and what genes have evolved towards the specific nature of our species… some genes are almost interchangeable in all species since we come from a common ancestor! ” Common form does NOT suffice to deduce common ancestor, this is logically inconclusive. In fact we would be silly to suppose that the general formula for life (DNA) would be dramatically altered for every life form. As a physician I studied molecular biology as well and was involved in numerous research and teaching areas for years so I think I can intelligibly converse with you on that topic. Your is an assumption at best but not proven science by any means. Of course all life shares a good deal of similar genes because all life shares a lot of similar proteins for life’s activities on a cellular level. But if you want me to least the vast differences between the genes of yeast and of humans it would take a long list. The fact that we use recombinant DNA to have other organisms produce human substances no more proves they are our ancestors than using a generic car part in a Ford and claiming the car part came first !!!!!!!
Report Post »avenger
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 7:38pmwhatever..nobody has a clue…nice promo for his book…
Report Post »JJ Coolay
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 7:45pmThis is pretty simple really: You don’t put your faith in men.
Report Post »rochrealtor
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:18pmOur souls, we have no control over. [Our soul] is impermeable and established. It is a seed God implants into every human, a road map to teach us how to love, his greatest gift
Report Post »True2thereplublic
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:25pm2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
If i where in this Church i would run for the doors……
Report Post »GODSAMERICA
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:43pmThis is ridiculous, anyone that wants to try and make Christianity “user friendly” is only trying to pass this crap off as truth, while the truth is that he is doing this only to make money off of suckers that are looking for an easy don’t have to do nothing to get into Heaven theology.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:57pmHere’s a thought: when the spirit of God moved upon the face of the great deep upon the earth that was without form and void, what if that was hell when it was void?
Report Post »Atheist
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 8:59pmWatching Christians argue among themselves is like watching a group of 5th graders argue about Pokemon. It is all made-up BS that they take way too seriously.
Report Post »Taquoshi
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 9:10pmto : NickDeringer Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:41am
Here’s the scoop on Rob Bell. Among other things he has serious doubts about the deity of Christ.
***************************
Thank you, Nick. Why am I not surprise? I knew something was off kilter the moment I read the book title.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 9:12pmThe funny thing is that many people are in hell right now, and they don’t even know it. They want this and that and can not acquire it, and to make matters worse they want to steal it or have the government take it. They drip with envy and are personally tormented every time they see someone else with something better than they have. They never learn by strengthening their won rod in each life they live, and they live again and again wanting what they can’t have. These people are dead inside and know it not. Then also when the earth becomes like hell once again as it becomes without form and void, those whom are alive will beg to not see the light and long to be dead spiritually as those whom drip with envy. My point is earth is as heaven or it can be hell depending on whether you understand the light or not, and when you are spiritually dead and always eating only dust, you will always burn for that which others have. Finally in the last days when God is done with the earth, all the dust will end up in the sun when it supernovas.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 9:14pmAnd I think Bell is putting a new spin on Religious Social Justice.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 9:21pm@ Atheist………..The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 53. Christians are not arguing among themselves but rather exposing heretical teachings that are trying to masquerade around as Christianity. Believe me atheism is every bit as much of a religion and faith as anything else in the world and often just as fundamentalist and intolerant as you would claim of religion !!!!! Your god is humanism, you worship moral relativism, your doctrines are the “sacred” isms and your priests are the nihilistic bullhorns that preach from their various pulpits. Your evangelism is very prominent on college campuses and the “elites” of society. Your attempts at discipleship are obvious as you spread your “non-gospel” supposing your are benefiting those who would foolishly give ear to what you would espouse. Your religion is nothing new but is as old as humanity !!!!!
Report Post »Puppy
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 9:32pmCatharthis: It seems to me that you have never experienced the “supernatural” or the love of God; that can be the only reason you can make such a statement. I speak from experience and I know what is in my heart, “Love wins”.
Report Post »thepatriotdave
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 9:58pmThis guy needs to buy one of my all-time favorite bumper-stickers. It says…. “If you are living as if there is no Hell, you had better be right.”
http://www.americasteapartynews.com
Report Post »White Devil
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 10:02pmI listened to two Rob Bell sermons on his website. One said there is NO hell and the other said you don’t need to be born again. Bell says that you are already born again and you just don’t know it. When you realize it your life gets better but he says all are born again and just need to come to the realization of it. This guy is scary wrong.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 10:09pmDTOM_Jericho
… if maybe you were a good guy but didn’t believe in him, you get no mercy and endless torture the same as hitler!
You can believe what you want, but you show a lack of understanding of the nature of sin, as the Bible explains it. Our “goodness” is like filthy rags to God. We can‘t really understand God’s holiness unless we humble ourselves. Once you do, he will give you conviction of sin. Unless you have experienced conviction of sin at some point in your life, you are not truly saved. When you do, you realize that you need salvation and that God provided it for you through his very own Son. Every time my faith falters, God reminds me of the cross. I cannot argue with a God who gave his all so that I could live in his presence.
—-
“And to top it of, the number 1 offender of all time gets his own kingdom to rule and torment?”
Again, you are misinformed. If you look at things from God’s perspective, i.e., eternity, Satan’s kingdom is very short-lived. Satan will be cast in the lake of fire, so he doesn’t get to torment people forever. Also, hell (not the lake of fire) was created for Satan and his angels. Human beings who go there do so of their own free will. Satan is a fallen cherub and his demons are fallen angels, so they are far more powerful than human beings. Therefore, people who end up in hell are at their mercy (humanly speaking, it is similar to what happens in prisons).
Who do you worship, DTom?
Report Post »TruthLover
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 10:44pmWell, I’m no fan of Rob Bell, but it seems pretty premature to freak out about a book nobody’s read. Good marketing strategy though.
Report Post »jackrorabbit
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:10pmHello, Pastor are you listening? READ YOUR BIBLE!!! It is all there. If you want to preach “everyone is saved” no matter what, then leave the Christian Church, and go to the Unitarian church. Christ said there is a Hell. He also said narrow is the way and FEW that will find it. He isn’t condemning anyone, since He also said that God wants everyone to come to Him like a child, however, they get to make that CHOICE for themselves. Called free will, I know it is a radical concept, ya know, responsible for your own decisions and all.
Report Post »WOW, if this isn’t someone teaching for “itching ears”, one more thing to add to the End Times theory.
Awakened One
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:31pmI like this guy. He is a breath of fresh air for the Christian church. If you hold truth first and foremost, before scripture, before beliefs in God, before anything; you will find God and the scripture, if it is indeed truth. However, if you believe a version of God or scripture that is not truth, you will be trapped in dogma. By the statements I’ve read here, I suspect that most of you are trapped. SEEK TRUTH and TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:42pmCesium: “…some genes are almost interchangeable in all species…”
Report Post »—
…and you are almost logical.
jackrorabbit
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:49pm@JZ
Report Post »Actually, the Bible states the the love of money is the root for all kinds of evil, so not so sure about your premise. Second, it states GIVE and it shall be given unto you, pressed down shaken together and running over, so without a giving heart, you can still make lots of money, but you wont be happy. Third, Christ said “The poor will be with you always”. Now perhaps that is to test our hearts as Christians to give to those less fortunate than us. Don’t know just a guess. Fourth, as for having all our needs met in Heaven, true, because we are then a transformed spirit that requires no food, no drink, no clothing, and there are already many mansions(rooms) already prepared for us. Since God is a loving Father, He provides for us.
Don’t fall into the trap laid by Satan that money is the answer and God made it that way. God gave us Eden, and man fell, so we were cursed as was the land, to toil and to eventually die. If we do not toil, then we do not eat. We are living in a world that was not intended. Satan led Eve away, she led Adam astray, and now we get to deal with the problem set up from their disobedience. Is that fair? Well, it may not seem that way, but since we are living in a world of Sin, cursed by God, then we have no choice but to toil for our daily bread. Will God intervene for us from time to time? Most certainly, I have had that happen many times. However, to attempt to compare the corrupted and faulty world that we live in, to the uncorrupted and perfect world that God intended, and that Heaven provides will only leave you bitter and angry, and could lead to coveting(no. 10 on the “Big List of Don’ts).
doubleplayman
Posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:52pmRomans 1:18-25
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Report Post »Awakened One
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 12:19amIn Mathew 7:20 (or there abouts) it’s said that you will know them by their fruits. So lets see, Bell says Love wins. That seems like some pretty tasty fruit. Then there are those posting here who have the audacity to say he’s going to hell. That’s a pretty curious condemnation and rather telling fruit as well. I wonder – who would God approve of more? Someone pointing to the value of love, or someone pointing to hell. It seems that love does indeed win.
Report Post »Large Eagle
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 12:28amTry mixing real Scriptures with everyday life
Report Post »Large Eagle
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 1:28amNot to be confused with the Mars Hill Church – Those being the blood bought children of God, saved though His Son Jesus Christ. Thank you Pastor Jamie Munson
From Rob Bell’s Mars Hill site (no church indicated – Go figure)
The word theology comes from two Greek words: “theos”, meaning “God”, and “logos”, meaning “word”. So theology is words about God
I think you missed it Rob – Theos -first – logos – second GOD’S WORD – not the pathetic attemopt we humans make in understanding them or their order.
You pour lost sheep – Like me just ask Jesus into to your heart and you will find that he is LOVE and you are right about one thing – HE always wins.
Report Post »Constitutional Citizen
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 1:34amPlease download and read the linked .pdf book that answers such questions… what follows is the beginning of a Biblical prophecy leading to the end of the world as we know it.
The scenario moves from way out in space to the depths of good and evil in the human soul. It is a True story, the instruction manual for survival.
Mankind hoarding weapons and/or building bomb-shelters are not the preparations required for what is to come in this world. This, “The Way Home” is the ONLY Survival Plan that works. If you like a book with a mission and want to survive, then read on. . .
http://www.jahtruth.net/twh.pdf
Report Post »Rikster
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 1:46amBearfoot…
Report Post »By the responses that I saw, or didn’t see……seems like everyone was a notathome, eh?? : )
ozz
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 1:47amThe Bible clearly states few will make it to heaven. This man is no christian. He is a false prophet.
Report Post »UPSETVET
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 6:06amThe late John Lennon of the Beatles fame wrote and sang a song that says,” Imagine there’s no heaven, it’s easy if you try, no hell below us, above only sky ” Well, who do you choose to believe, John Lennon who doesn‘t think there’s a heaven or hell, or Jesus Christ that’s an Authority on both places. I think I’ll stick with Jesus Christ.
Rob Bell is neither an evengelical or pastor. He’s just another unbeliever in a very old and long line of unbelievers. He doesn’t believe the Holy Scriptures so why would anyone give a hoot about what he says about any spiritual subject ?
The Bible teaches that both Heaven and Hell are real places and will be the final destiny of those who believe ( Heaven ) and those who refuse to believe (Hell ). Jesus taught about the existence of both Hell and Heaven, but had a lot more to say about Hell than about Heaven.
” God is LOVE and wouldn’;t send anybody to such a place as Hell “. Well God is LOVE but He’s also JUST. Think about it, is it JUST or even LOGICAL to imagine the bad and the good spending eternity together in an unknown place ? I don‘t think so because the Bible clearly teaches there’s a Heaven for the righteous and a Hell for the unrighteous.
I believe the Bible that is true and unchangeable. On the other hand, who is Ron Bell, that he can dispute God’s Word ? He‘s the devil’s disciple and not a disciple of Jesus Christ. Many before him have tried to do the same and at this very moment they are in Hell and they know that there is a Hell and once a person is in it, theres no escape from it. Hell is real and it’s really a terible place.
In the story that Jesus told in Luke 16 :19-31 about a begger and a richman dying, the begger went to HEAVEN but the richman went to HELL. In verse 24 the richman cries out, “…I am tormented in this flame “. That sounds pretty real to me. That sounds pretty terrible to me.
If ther’s no Heaven or Hell, then there’s no God. Believe what you want to believe. I choose to believe the Bible and not “wackos” like Ron Bell. Don’t buy his book, it’s a waste of your time and money. Read the Bible if you want to know the truth.
poverty.sucks
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 7:17am@AWAKENED Bell would LOVE you to buy his book to pay his Mega Bills that his Mega Church can no longer sustain. Bell fails to represent Truth. Therefore he’s appealing to the non-believers who enjoy thinking Christians are wrong.
Report Post »Alaredneck
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 8:52amPerfectly stated.
Report Post »Sinista MACE
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 10:16amSatan will be bound in this world and destroyed forever in the bottomless pit of the largest black hole in the universe, because of his desire to see man perish, and his corruption of man through copulation with humans and the teaching of perverse sexual ways and the art of war, the use of technology for destructive means, the blows of death, the killing of babies in the womb, and all of the most disgusting ways from eating bloody flesh to homosexuality and beastiality, the man who cannot let go of his fleshly desire TAUGHT BY SATAN will likewise be bound to this world as it is destroyed, and will therefor perish with the material world, and not encounter the heaven of God, which doesn’t exist in this material dimension.
Report Post »Faith in God
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 10:25amEverythingbelongs to God…buy the truth and sell it not. Acts 2:38 is the only way.
Report Post »Sinista MACE
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 10:26amThe New Jerusalem will descend from heaven and land on the earth.
It’s a giant spaceship-city that is orbiting the sun right now.
It looks like a giant crystal cube.
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/63316/another_huge_cube_on_soho_27_dec_2010/
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:32amRikster, Your comment;
“Bearfoot…
By the responses that I saw, or didn’t see……seems like everyone was a notathome, eh?? : )”
They are home, but hiding. : )
Report Post »ddchopper
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:36amInteresting discussion about a book that has not been released yet. Maybe everyone should read the book, and then decide if Rod should be condemned to hell. Or is that God’s job?
Report Post »Charles
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 12:53pmI agree with the Catharsis post. Elaborating, the Jews, Christians, Muslims and Mormons have all tried to one up each other by saying their writings are True. They should be examined the way we look at UFO’s: They may or may not exist, get proof. We do not know. We definately should not let this stuff continue to get us all killed in the name of make believe. The mormons with their multiple wives and Gold tables provided by God. Really? This is all David Koresh and Jim Jones stuff, all of it.
If the Jews want a piece of land, we should give them some other worthless piece of Earth, like the Sudan or Somalia, they can take their rock there and beat their heads silly.
Yes, John Lennon was very correct.
Report Post »iluv2surf2
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 1:34pmNo Hell, I say Hell No. The reality of Hell is as real as your very existance. Its one of two eternal paths your soul takes. Death and Hell are virtually the same. The soul that sins shall die. Connect the dots…
Report Post »recoveredcatholic
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 1:57pmH_ll’s Bells!! How can the churches control their flocks without the fear and guilt driven belief in eternity in flames for non-conformists? God is love.
Report Post »jakartaman
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 2:19pm@lostone
Report Post »I have been a amateur student of the m-theory also.
It has convinced me that humanity has not put its big toe over the threshold
of Knowledge. You have the vibration thing down – a book written over 100 years ago talks about a spirt telling a medium that the reason we cannot see them is because the vibrate too fast!
LostOneironaut
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 2:30pm@ jakartaman
very interesting indeed
Report Post »iamanatheist
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 5:11pmI am a scientist. As such, in the issuance of my trade, i require physical evidence for the support of any theory. I challenge all of you christians here to provide me with one…. just ONE… shred of evidence of the existence of any God-like deity, that can be measured, repeated, and evaluated, and i will fall down on my knees in an instant and devote the rest of my life to him/her.
And resorting to the whole knowing-him-in-your-heart adage will not work…. in my youth i was a born-again christian for a number of years, laying-on of hands and speaking in tongues, and all that.
And don’t bother quoting scripture at me. I have your bible many times over and probably know it better than you.
Just show me some proof that your God exists and I will believe.
I and others on this site await your rational and objective reply.
Report Post »iamanatheist
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 5:14pmsorry… have *read* your bible….
Report Post »UPSETVET
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 5:17pmRon Bell will wake up in Hell surrounded by Muslim terrorist who were told if they blew themselves and others up they’d go to paradise where several virgins would be waiting for them. Some religions say ” There ain’t no hell “, but we Baptist say, ” The hell there ain’t “. Ha
What’s so disturbing about this guys book is some people will actually buy it, read it and believe it. He is just another “wacko” trying to be his on god, but it never has worked for others and it won’t work for him.
Report Post »LostOneironaut
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 5:26pm@IAMANATHEIST
its called faith for a reason.
and personally i cant imagine living a life without faith in anything. not only is it depressing but its not very good insurance…just incase
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 5:45pmiamanatheist
I am a scientist. As such, in the issuance of my trade, i require physical evidence for the support of any theory. I challenge all of you christians here to provide me with one…. just ONE… shred of evidence of the existence of any God-like deity, that can be measured, repeated, and evaluated, and i will fall down on my knees in an instant and devote the rest of my life to him/her.
You, sir are too arrogant to be taught anything. Where do you get your self assuming brags? Thinking you are so intelligent and superior when you are actually poor and pitiful. You deny what is obvious in all the creation that surrounds you, the wonderful design of your own body, you think it was an accident. No designer there? Your single finger has more design engineered into it than is comprehensible. Maybe it’s time for you to show some humility, your not as smart as you think.
Report Post »Don’t worry, no scripture for you, I will not insult your wonderful intelligence with that.
watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 6:54pm@ IAMANATHEIST ………….show me one single shred of provable evidence of the big bang ???? You can’t and I have the quotes from the scientists that no more about than you I am sure that concede that very point. So you maybe a scientist, but you still operate on faith in way way or another regarding something you CANNOT prove any more than we can prove or disprove God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »HomerZ
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 8:27pmThe Gist of our Bible Study last night…
1) Why does our sect of Christianity elevate (I say elevate because the Bible seems to teach both) the idea that only some “elect” people go to heaven and the rest are going to be separated from God forever (meaning forever with no possibility of repentance and reconciliation) see passages below.
2) How could any of us be in bliss in heaven knowing that many or most of those whom we know and love are not only lost forever, but are being tormented forever?
3) Which picture of God and Jesus is more fitting to the life of Jesus and the Love, Humility and Forgiveness he demonstrated – Eternal (again meaning forever with no possibility of repentance and reconciliation) torment for a finite # of sins (even if it is 101000 sins it is still a finite #) or the eventual reconciliation of all created persons?
4) If Jesus did not condemn the Samaritans for rejecting the Gospel (and Jesus) right from the Apostles mouth, why should we think all are condemned forever for rejecting Christ
5) It seems to me if we accept the idea of hell forever, then we accept the following:
a. God does not desire all people to be saved “God desires that all people should be saved” 1 Tim 2:4
Report Post »b. God and Jesus do not have the power to save all created persons “The Father has put all things under his power John 13:3; “with God nothing is impossible” Luke 1: 37; “Love never fails” 1Cor 13:8; “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted Job 42:2 “The Lord will NOT cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.” (Lam. 3:31, 32)
c. God is seemingly schizophrenic
All of these following passages are taken out of context, but nonetheless it seems to me that the idea of the eventual restoration of all things is shown throughout the Bible:
“It shall come to pass the saying that is written: `death is swallowed up in victory. Oh, Death, where is your sting Oh, Hell where is your victory.’ The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 15:54-58)
“Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam ALL died, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)
“Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL MEN.” (Rom. 5:18)
Jesus commanded us to be like Himself and His Father: “Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44, 45)
“The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.” (1 John 4:14)
Jesus is “the Christ, the Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our savior; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)
Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
Jesus “did not come to judge the world but to save the WORLD.” (John 12:47)
“Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for EVERYONE.” (Heb. 2:9)
“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
“At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:10:11)
“God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation.” (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)
In Jesus Christ is “the restoration of ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:21)
The Gospel is “good tidings of great joy will be to ALL people.” (Luke 2:10)
God appointed Jesus “heir of ALL THINGS, and through whom He made the universe.” (Heb. 1:2)
The Father “has given ALL THINGS into Jesus’ hands.” (John 13:3)
Jesus “was the true light which gives light to EVERY MAN who come into the world.” (John 1:9)
Jesus is “able even to subdue ALL THINGS to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)
Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)
“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)
“God was Christ reconciling THE WORLD to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:19, 20)
“The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the WORLD.” (John 6:33)
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MANKIND unto Myself.” (John 12:32)
“Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Rom. 8:20, 21)
“The Father loves the Son and has given ALL THINGS into His hands.” (John 3:35)
Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the first born over ALL CREATION. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Co. 1:15, 16)
“ALL shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)
“The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN.” (Titus 2:11)
We are not to “repay evil for evil.” (Rom. 12:17)
“If anyone’s work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)
“Of Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)
“Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for ALL, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)
“The head of EVERY man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor. 11:3)
“Mercy shall TRIUMPH OVER judgment.” (James 2:13)
“Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)
“EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)
“God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning EVERY MAN and teaching EVERY MAN in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)
“ALL nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Psalm 86:9)
God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34)
God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of EVERY living thing.” (Psalm 145:16)
God is “gracious in ALL His works.” (Psalm 145:17)
“Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. ALL the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Psalm 66:3, 4)
“Through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed, because His compassions FAIL NOT. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness.” (Lam. 3:21-24)
“The Lord will NOT cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.” (Lam. 3:31, 32)
“For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made.” (Isaiah 57:16)
“There is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; There is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord ALL the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.” (Isaiah 45:21-25)
Of those who crucified Him Jesus asked: “Father forgive them; for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)
When John and James wanted to call fire down on the Samaritans’ heads because they did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, who did Jesus condemn, His disciples or the Samaritans for not believing the gospel directly from the apostles’ own mouth “But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And they went on to another village.” (Luke 9:55, 56)
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
iamanatheist
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 8:30pmNice tries, guys, still no proof. I am asking for your assistance here, the eternal fate of my soul rests upon your objective evidence. And as good True Christians, you *are* supposed to be concerned about my salvation, aren’t you?
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 8:59pm@ HOMERZ……your exegesis is horrible and incorrect you have taken things out of their contextual background and ascribed meanings to them that the original hearers and speakers never would have conveyed or understood. However, I don’t hold out much hope that you would ever research any of those verses for yourself and what their original textual meanings were !!!!!!
@ IAMANATHEIST……… I asked you a simple question when you answer my question and honestly admit your beliefs are ultimately based in faith as well and are not proven by science then we can talk !!!!
“Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory of the universe in the history of Western civilization.
Report Post »It rests, however, on many untested, and in some cases untestable, assumptions. Indeed, big bang cosmology has become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective truth.”
G. Burbidge,
1992. Why only one big bang? Scientific American, 266(2):96
jhaydeng
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 9:15pmIt‘s amazing how man’s own theories on life and faith evolve. The learned man decides that he has all the answers to life despite having concrete proof, but yet denies faith and the existance of something it can’t see! I believe we were put here by God! Anybody else?
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 9:18pmEinstein ultimately gave grudging acceptance to what he called “the necessity for a beginning” and eventually to “the presence of a superior reasoning power.” But he never did accept the reality of a personal God.
I want to quote from a book that I don’t recommend. It is by a brilliant physicist, Leon Lederman, a Nobel Prize winner. It is called The God Particle and although the title sounds very appealing, the good information is all in the first paragraph. The rest of it is just a case for the building of the SSC, the Super Conducting-Super Collider, which we now know is not going to be built. Therefore the book is a bit of a Rip Van-Winkle sort of experience! But the first paragraph is wonderful; it’s a great summary of what I have said so far:
In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings–none, zero. We don’t know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up–we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning.
“The big bang is essentially a creationist philosophy. It is creationist both because it opens the door to a supernatural origin of the universe itself, and because it basically says the universe seems absurd. We are asked to believe in it because the experts say it’s true.”
So says Eric J. Lerner, president of Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, Inc., in New Jersey. In addition to plasma physics, Lerner has written and done extensive research in the fields of cosmology and astrophysics. It is on the subject of cosmology that Vision contributor Dan Cloer recently interviewed him.
Some have considered the “Big Bang” a “big dud.“ I had stopped demeaning the term ”Big Bang” after hearing a presentation by a scientist who subscribed to the concept of intelligent design . That presentation and one more recently I draw upon for the following assertion, assuming a “Big Bang” occurred.
Where as: There are as much complexity in the simplicity of a single cell as that of the whole of New York City.
Where as: The possibilities of all the necessary components being assembled in proper proportions and temperatures to create a living cell is astronomical.
Where as: The possibilities of all necessary components to maintain the life of a single living cell is astronomical.
Where as: In the chaos of an explosion the possibility of anything of any order being created, beyond simple shapes of inert matter, is nearly impossible.
Where as: The order of complexity of the universe, earth, life, animal, mineral, or vegetable leads to a logical conclusion of intelligent design.
Where as: Man has not come close to creating a non-creation model to prove any of his ad-hoc assumptions.
Where as: To believe that such an event, as life created in a “big bang,” is possible requires a faith in a belief of unsubstantiated conjecture or a faith in a design of intelligent engineering.
I therefore Conclude: For the “Big Bang” to have occurred, creating life, it would require an intelligence to set all necessary components in proper order to allow man to come into existence to then question the one who gave him life. It takes less faith to believe God created the heavens, earth and man then it does to believe that any form of living order came into being by happenstance.
http://www.seekerworld.com/bible/proofs.html just one resource for you if your serious
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 9:25pm@ HOMERZ……………Explain the meaning of the following contextual verse !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Report Post »iamanatheist
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 10:01pm@ LostOneironaut: it is also called Blind Faith for a reason. Without objective provable evidence that God exists all of your religious machinations are for naught. Show me any evidence that any God exists and i will believe in a heartbeat.
@ Bearfoot: “You, sir are too arrogant to be taught anything. Where do you get your self assuming brags?” As a scientist, i have an infinitely open mind, and can be taught anything. And how exactly was i “arrogantly bragging” when all i did was relate my profession?
“Thinking you are so intelligent and superior when you are actually poor and pitiful.” I never claimed to be superior or intelligent in any way, i merely posed a question and challenge to all the Christians here, which have so far not been forthcoming. And while you have every right to pity my disbelief in God, i do not think that you have access to my bank accounts.
“You deny what is obvious in all the creation that surrounds you, the wonderful design of your own body, you think it was an accident. No designer there? Your single finger has more design engineered into it than is comprehensible.” Umm, there is this minor little theory called evolution that does a more than fine job of explaining how all of this came to be.
“Maybe it’s time for you to show some humility, your not as smart as you think.” I will readily concede the latter point, Sir, but not the former. Give me one example in my post where i displayed one modicum of hubris.
“Don’t worry, no scripture for you, I will not insult your wonderful intelligence with that.” I thank you for that, Sir….
@watchtheotherhand: “…any more than we can prove or disprove God” So you tacitly admit that you cannot provide me with any objective evidence of the existence of your God?
This is my problem with all religions: if people spent only 1% of their time, energy, and resources on bettering themselves and those around them that they currently expend on the empty promises of religion we would not have nearly as many problems that we are currently facing.
God is a farce. Satan is a farce. Heaven is a farce. Hell is a farce.
Prove to me otherwise, Christians, and i will believe in a moment. Your evidence must be able to be measured, replicated, and objectively evaluated by a capable third party.
I and some others here again patiently await your hopefully robust reply.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 10:17pm@ IAMANATHEIST…………..Nice avoidance and dodge of what I stated !!!! You have sincerely displayed your dis-ingenuousness. Not answering one thing of what I challenged you with. And the proof of God‘s existence is Jesus Christ but of course you will not accept that because your problem isn’t with proof but being accountable to a holy God. Your bitterness is quite obvious and betrays any real sense of objectivity. If faith was your problem then you would struggle with the concept of the Big Bang. You have demonstrated both your logically inconsistency and your prejudice in just a couple of posts !!! Your hardness of heart and pride have blinded you to many things, most of all to the minuscule knowledge we as humanity possess on the universe we live in.
He who knows not and knows not he knows not: he is a fool.
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 1 Corinthians
Report Post »iamanatheist
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 10:39pmwatchtheotherhand, i was merely posing a simple question seeking a straightforward answer. I am under no rhetorical obligation to answer your question about the Big Bang as a prerequisite for you to answer mine. I asked first. If you have no satisfactory answer, just say so. If you have one, please provide me with it so that i may avoid eternal damnation in hell.
That being said, i will address your query. I wish that i could tutor you in the subtle complex intricacies of the proven theory of Quantum Electrodynamics, but let me try to boil it down here for you. Stuff comes from nowhere. A “vacuum state” is anything but empty space; a vacuum creates particles and their antiparticles continuously, nearly all off which self-annihilate (a notable exception being particles close to the event horizon of a black hole, otherwise known as Hawking Radiation).
This characteristic of quantum theory has been repeatedly experimentally observed for many years in what is known as the Casimir effect (Wiki it for more explanation, i am not going to go into more details here. Do your own homework, as your buddy Glenn Beck is wont to say.). The essential point is that something can come from nothing. Voila, you have a Universe. No God or Satan or Heaven or Hell needed. No faith needed. Just pure, unadulterated, observable, and repeatable glorious physics.
Now that i have responded to your query, would you be so kind as to grace my puny mind with your pure, unadulterated, observable, and repeatable evidence for the existence of God?
I offer you my many thanks in advance, Kind Sir.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 10:59pmYou can give me your supposed scientific “facts” However the men you would emulate Hawkings, his colleague, Einstein, and many other of physics brightest minds have all admitted that the Big Bang is more of a field of philosophy than hard science. You can do your own research. I have already answered your questions. And since you will not investigate the evidence that exists that points to a literal Jesus or Creator then I cannot convince you of what you have already determined does not exist.
1.. The cosmological argument: the effect of the universe’s existence must have a suitable cause. 2.. The teleological argument: the design of the universe implies a purpose or direction behind it. 3.. The rational argument: the operation of the universe, according to order and natural law, implies a mind behind it. 4.. The ontological argument: man’s ideas of God (his God-consciousness) implies a God who imprinted such a consciousness. 5.. The moral argument: man’s built-in sense of right and wrong can be accounted for only by an innate awareness of a code of law–an awareness implanted by a higher being. The Big Bang The idea that the universe had a specific time of origin has been philosophically resisted by some very distinguished scientists. We could begin with Arthur Eddington, who experimentally confirmed Einstein’s general theory of relativity in 1919. He stated a dozen years later: “Philosophically, the notion of a beginning to the present order is repugnant to me and I should like to find a genuine loophole.” He later said, “We must allow evolution an infinite amount of time to get started.” Albert Einstein’s reaction to the consequences of his own general theory of relativity appear to acknowledge the threat of an encounter with God. Through the equations of general relativity, we can trace the origin of the universe backward in time to some sort of a beginning. However, before publishing his cosmological inferences, Einstein introduced a cosmological constant, a “fudge factor,” to yield a static model for the universe. Einstein later considered this to be the greatest blunder of his scientific career.
Einstein ultimately gave grudging acceptance to what he called “the necessity for a beginning” and eventually to “the presence of a superior reasoning power.” But he never did accept the reality of a personal God.
Why such resistance to the idea of a definite beginning of the universe? It goes right back to that first argument, the cosmological argument: (a) Everything that begins to exist must have a cause; (b) If the universe began to exist, then (c) the universe must have a cause. You can see the direction in which this argument is flowing–a direction of discomfort to some physicists.
Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist, has written very persuasively on this topic. He again brings us into the philosophical implications. Ross says that, by definition,
Time is that dimension in which cause and effect phenomena take place. . . . If time’s beginning is concurrent with the beginning of the universe, as the space-time theorem says, then the cause of the universe must be some entity operating in a time dimension completely independent of and pre-existent to the time dimension of the cosmos. This conclusion is powerfully important to our understanding of who God is and who or what God isn’t. It tells us that the creator is transcendent, operating beyond the dimensional limits of the universe. It tells us that God is not the universe itself, nor is God contained within the universe. These are two very popular views, which brings us to something very significant metaphysically or philosophically. If the big bang theory is true, then we can conclude God is not the same as the universe (a popular view) and God is not con-tained within the universe (another popular view). Stephen Hawking has said, in his writings, “the actual point of creation lies outside the scope of presently known laws of physics,” and a less well-known but very distinguished cosmologist, Professor Alan Guth from MIT, says the “instant of creation remains unexplained.”
Hawking’s first major work was published with Roger Penrose, a physicist very famous in his own right, and George Ellis, during the period 1968-1970. They demonstrated that every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past. This is now known as the “singularity theorem,” and is a tremendously important finding.
Later, working by himself, in 1974, he began to formulate ideas about the quantum evaporation of exploding black holes, the now famous “Hawking radiation.” These are all tremendously important scientific works.
The work most referred to in A Brief History of Time is also the most speculative: the 1984 work with James Hartle, a professor at the University of California at Santa Barbara. Using an elegant vacuum fluctuation model, they were able to provide a mathematical rationalization for the entire universe popping into existence at the beginning of time. This is also called the “universe as a wave function.” I need to emphasize that they were using very simple models. Now, while such mathematical exercises are highly speculative, they may eventually lead us to a deeper understanding of this creation event.
And God A Brief History of Time says a lot about God. God is mentioned in this book from beginning to end. So let us try to put Hawking’s opinions about God in some sort of a context. The context is that Stephen Hawking made up his mind about God long before he became a cosmologist. The principle influence in his early life was his mother, Isabel. Isabel Hawking was a member of the Communist Party in England in the 1930′s, and her son has carried a good bit of that intellectual baggage right through his life.
By the time he was 13, Hawking’s hero was the atheist philosopher and mathematician, Bertrand Russell. At the same age, two of Hawking’s friends became Christians as a result of the 1955 Billy Graham London campaign. According to his 1992 biographers, Hawking stood apart from these encounters with “a certain amused detachment.” There is nothing in A Brief History of Time that deviates in a significant way from the religious views of the 13-year old Stephen Hawking.
Seems your evidence was slighted to begin with and your confidence in the “facts” you have stated seem to stand in opposition to the greatest minds that have ever studied in this area as they all seem to agree as I read them that it is impossible to prove scientifically what you seem to think is iron clad proof. Me smells a stinker in here !!!!!
Report Post »WhiteFang
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:06pmwatchtheotherhand,
Wow, that atheist guy (the scientist) really is arrogant isn’t he?
Report Post »His mind, is like a god’s mind, understanding all things, and looking at us poor unenlightened with contempt. He says he “could tutor you in the subtle complex intricacies of the proven theory of Quantum Electrodynamics, but let me try to boil it down here for you.” Wow, we behold a god! Teach me please all the wonders of your magnificence. Like blacktooth suggested, a little humility would serve the scientist better.
iamanatheist
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:20pm@ watchtheotherhand: “Nice avoidance and dodge of what I stated !!!! You have sincerely displayed your dis-ingenuousness. Not answering one thing of what I challenged you with.” You may not have seen it yet, but i replied to your challenge, although i was under no rhetorical obligation to do so. You have yet to provide ample evidence to *my* query, my response was merely me being gracious to you.
“And the proof of God‘s existence is Jesus Christ but of course you will not accept that because your problem isn’t with proof but being accountable to a holy God.” Sorry, Watch, but the second-hand accounts of the existence of a man that might have lived and died in no way is evidence that a supposedly all-powerful God that single-handedly created the universe exists.
“Your bitterness is quite obvious and betrays any real sense of objectivity.” I am not bitter at all, Watch, i am just merely rational. And quite objective, by the way. Please provide me with some objective evidence that your or any Gods exist.
“If faith was your problem then you would struggle with the concept of the Big Bang.” I do not struggle with the Big Bang in any way, Watch. The observable evidence incontrovertibly points to its validity, as does evolution. What i struggle with is the creation of a wonderful cosmos by some cruel absent landlord called God.
“You have demonstrated both your logically inconsistency and your prejudice in just a couple of posts !!! Your hardness of heart and pride have blinded you to many things, most of all to the minuscule knowledge we as humanity possess on the universe we live in.” I will concede the point that we as humans possess a miniscule amount of knowledge to what here is to learn. But then isn’t that part of what life is all about??!!!
“He who knows not and knows not he knows not: he is a fool.” Actually the quote kinda goes along these lines…
“He who knows not and knows not he knows not: he is a fool – shun him. He who knows not and knows he knows not: he is simple – teach him. He who knows and knows not he knows: he is asleep – wake him. He who knows and knows he knows: he is wise – follow him.”
I know who i am in this hierarchy, Watch…. where do *you* place yourself?
By the way, i am still awaiting your promised reply to my query….
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 1 Corinthians
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:24pm@ IAMANATHEIST………..Prove to me scientifically why a bumble bee can fly? You cannot prove it to me scientifically. You may put forth some theory but you cannot prove it even using the most advanced aeronautical computer models. Yet, the bee flies regardless if you prove it or not. Of course you will say you can see it fly so don’t need the proof to believe it. Yet it does demonstrate very nicely our limited ability to understand even some of the more “simple” things of our animal kingdom. Much less the origins of our universe you speak so confidently on. If you were not familiar with the bee and I explained it to you, you most undoubtedly would exclaim with great confidence that it was impossible for such a creature to take to flight. However, you would be entirely wrong.
Report Post »iamanatheist
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:37pmWatch, your cosmological perorations are beside the point. I answered your question. Can you answer mine?
And saying that a man named Jesus existed two thousand years ago and was written about is a wholly inadequate response.
Give me verifiable and incontrovertible evidence of the existence of your God.
The fate of my soul rests upon your reply. As a good Christian, please do not fail me.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:39pm@ IAMANATHEIST……….You very confidently state that your science is incontrovertible and so is not open to debate or question in any way but I have big news for you it is debated very heavily among the brightest minds about its validity. Your assumptions cannot be used to support your conclusions as fact and make your case open and shut simply because you say this is truth, incontrovertible truth. Realizing this is not the forum for lengthy discussions and that you will not be as intellectually honest as the best and brightest in the field by admitting that the Big Bang (what happened just before a supposed singularity) cannot be proven by science and is philosophical in nature (this placing you’re beliefs in the faith category not science). I don’t think we will be very fruitful in trying to go forward. If you continue to discredit my objections to you simply stating that your science is fact and solid and irrefutable when it most certainly is not proven fact but theories and conjectures then I cannot discuss a topic with an intellectually dishonest person. Have a good day sir and I will pray for your hardness as I was an Atheist at one time myself. I hope you will stop to think about the greater implications of your “scientific” beliefs. Finally, prove to me the existence of love. I want scientific prove not second hand accounts but scientific proof. Yet I think you believe it exists. Unless of course you don’t
Report Post »iamanatheist
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:44pm@Watch… come on now, the bumblebee? You really could do much better, Good Sir….
I still anxiously await your answer to my query, Sir…
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:48pm@ IAMANATHEIST……………..Jesus’ resurrection from the grave was the proof that he was God. Yet you will not investigate the proof at all. Many eyewitnesses that exceed our criminal standard for eyewitness accounts in our justice system that is accepted as proof. Yet because you have already made up your mind because you are bitter with you acknowledge it or not or realize it. Many who could have easily discredited the account had it been a hoax or fraudulent did not. Like Jesus said when he was asked to prove who he was………….39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, Matthew 12
Report Post »iamanatheist
Posted on March 7, 2011 at 11:57pmWatch, your disengagement from the discussion is totally disappointing. Now, without the assistance of your fellow Christians, my eternal soul shall assuredly be consigned to the flames. What kind of Christian are you?
I pass the torch on to all remaining Christians here that Watchtheotherhand has so inappropriately dropped: please provide me with measurable objective physical evidence of the existence of God. I am pleading with all of you. Please be a good Christian and come to my aid in my hour of need. Thank you in advance.
Report Post »Sinista MACE
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 12:07amIAMANATHEIST
I point you to the Vortex Mathematics of Marko Rodin.
I will bring you to God through reason and science.
God does NOT exist.
I repeat, God does NOT exist.
To be or not to be, that is the question.
To exist, is to be.
God is, inherently, non-existent.
He is simultaneously the only thing that exists, and nothing.
God, is nothing.
He is the “hole” that permeates the whole.
God is emptiness, and fullness.
The matter (“mater”, “mother”, “mortar”) cannot exist without the emptiness.
Chesed cannot exist without Geburah.
Dissolve cannot exist without Congeal.
Matter cannot form without the “vacuum expectation value” of a black hole at the center of every object.
This universe is a hologram, on the resolution of Planck Length.
This hologram exists only within the mind of God, who is asleep and awake simultaneously, and the only being with the mental power to manifest tangible objects from nothing (a black hole) within his mind.
The entire Universe exists within the black hole of God’s mind.
All the information of every single 3 dimensional object that will ever cross the event horizon of a black hole is encoded on the 2 dimensional surface of the black hole.
Therefor, the black hole is an all-seeing eye that knows all about all.
The encoded surface information dictates the volume of the interior.
The volume of the interior does not dictate the encoded suface information, therefor the encoder of the 2 dimensional surface information, which is the quantum fluctuation of matter/antimatter annihilations, is the programmer of the the universe, because the entire universe is a unimaginably-sized black hole in the shape of a torus.
The matrix which defines the encoded 2 dimensional surface information is based on the golden ratio, approximately 1.618, which geometrically defines a golden mean spiral. The matrix is constructed using phi-based mathematics, rather than base-10 like we’re taught in school, and can be seen in natural occurences as the signature of God.
Research Marko Rodin’s Vortex Mathematics and you will realize that this vortex math is the basis of the DNA double helix, the Freemason symbols of the square and compass, and that the golden mean vortex is the Signature of God.
Report Post »iamanatheist
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 12:08amWatch, you still don’t get my question and i highly suspect cannot answer it. I do not care anything about some first century‘s prophet’s life. What i am asking for is physical proof of God’s existence. Not the Son, but The Father. What is it about that question is so hard for you to understand?
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 12:58amiamanatheist,
Report Post »I think we are through with you.
Matthew 7:6 gives some sage advice, and I am going to follow it in your case.
iamanatheist
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 4:32am@ bearfoot: i posed a simple question to you all that none of you could answer.
iamanatheist FTW.
There is no such thing as God.
QED.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 8:52amIt is quite obvious to anyone that followed these threads that IAMANATHEIST is dis-ingenuous and has avoided any serious challenge I have posed to him regarding his so-called “scientific” facts. He has demonstrated that he is bias and not interested in facts or the truth but rather in airing his own opinions and arrogance about the conception of all things. His is a mocking attitude and reveals more about his character than he probably realizes. His agenda is also very plain to most any person reading these threads. No doubt he will respond in his usual way of I am just asking a question yet refuses to acknowledge all the areas that he believes in that provide no proof at all. This is a dis-ingenuous person so you may mock me and all I have said and the God and savior I believe in, but all you really do is continue to expose your on foolishness. Matthew 7:3 certainly does apply here. As Jesus’ disciples said, who else has words of life. IAMANATHEIST is masquerading as some quasi-intellectual, yet he had an agenda with his first comment so if he wants to live his life by if I can’t touch it, feel, see it, prove it mantra go right ahead. Thomas was the same way until he put his hands in the nail prints. n It is quite obvious from your dismissal of the evidence of Christ and how you simply dismiss it without commenting or looking at it that you are a ruse and a mocker who is wise in his own eyes. And I always knew what the whole quote was but knew only one line applied to you.
He who knows not and knows not that he knows not. He is a fool !!!!!!!!
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 8:57am@ BEARFOOT…………I think the we were thinking the exact same thing because I almost made the same comment at the same time !!!!!!!!
Report Post »Sinista MACE
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 10:23amIAMANATHEIST
You, and everything around you that exists, is the physical evidence of God.
It is his handiwork.
Tangible objects are formed by intangible holes.
God is intangible. He is the hole that permeates the whole and is simultaneously the whole.
Report Post »Sinista MACE
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 10:33amThe 4 descriptions of God;
Omniscience – the black hole knows all
Omnipresence – the black hole is everywhere at all times, and simultaneously nowhere at all.
Omnipotent – the black hole is ALL POWERFUL.
Omnibenevolence – the black hole is the power of congeal, positive attraction, love, bringing one close. The golden ratio, which defines the vortex, is perfection.
You can never reach the hole (you can never achieve the perfection of God) because you can never reach the “center” of a phi-spiral, and it is simultaneously all around you at all times, and goes right through you and every single object.
There is no such thing as points in reality. A point is a hole with the structure of a vortex. A line is a vortex that is stretched thin and appears as electromagnetic waves.
It is a continuous hole that permeates everything.
Report Post »edcharwest
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 11:37amThis is not the first controversial thing that Rob Bell has put out there. He should quite pretending to be a Christian preacher and admit to being a proponent to Universalism. If what he is saying was true, the whole Bible would be a lie. the bible has survived for centuries and has never been proven to be wrong. If was he says were true, Jesus would be a liar and a nut case. Jesus talked a lot about hell–saying that it was a real place. He also died on the cross to cover our sins so we would not have to go there. But it is up to us to ask for forgiveness and receive Jesus to avoid hell. Now although Rob Bell is a smart man, but this smart man who comes along two thousand years after Jesus was here, who is just another man that cannot understand the justice of God, is rewriting the Bible. Rob, just come out and be truthful and tell people who you really are. tell them you don’t think the Bible is the word of God. Tell them you don’t think people need Jesus in their lives. tell them they can live and do anything they want and that God is going to just wink His eye at them and let them come in. Tell them you think they will be able to see Hitler in heaven, and anyone else who knowingly killed, murdered, raped and live a licentious life. Be a stand up guy and tell people who you are.
Report Post »LostOneironaut
Posted on March 8, 2011 at 12:34pm@IAMATHEIST
why dont you be a man (or woman if thats what you are) and just admit you are here to cause sh*t and you have no intention on listening to anybody. i’m a christian and yes i want others to find Christ. but im not going to waste time on some arrogant pr*ck like yourself. if you really wanted to know truth you would open up that little mind of yours.
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