Faith

Obama’s Lawyers Seek to Remove Employment Exceptions for Religious Organizations

Exceptions for Religious Organizations Targeted by Obama Justice Dept.The United States Department of Justice is about to create a great deal of controversy.

Officials are planning to ask the Supreme Court to throw out long-standing legal precedent that protects religious organizations from governmental regulations and intrusions.

Lawyers will present their oral arguments to the Supreme Court on Wednesday in “Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.“ Religion News Service has dubbed this case ”one of the most important church-state cases in years,” thus this move by the Justice Department will surely be highly debated.

The case surrounds Cheryl Perich, who taught both religion and a secular subject at the Hoasanna-Tabor school in Michigan until 2004. It was during that year that she was diagnosed with a sleep disorder, which required that she take a few months off of work. The Lutheran congregation hired another teacher to serve as her replacement and they asked Perich to resign.

At this point, a doctor had given her permission to return to work. But considering the woman‘s illness and the church’s attempt to replace her, she ended up threatening to launch a lawsuit and the congregation subsequently voted to let her go. After she was replaced, Perich did inevitably sue the school under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

The church‘s argument was that her job wasn’t covered under employment law, seeing as the position was at a religious institution, which is shielded from traditional federal employment regulations. Although she lost the first court battle in 2004, the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (Cincinnati) subsequently ruled in her favor. Religion News Service sets up the questions surrounding the legal debate:

The question before the justices concerns the “ministerial exception,” a 40-year-old legal doctrine that protects churches and other religious institutions from government interference in their employment decisions.

Few would dispute that a religious congregation should be unfettered when it chooses to hire or fire clergy. But what about other church employees?

The government appears poised to side with Perich. In a legal brief, which was already submitted to the Supreme Court, the Obama administration seeks an elimination of the ministerial exemption. The document, which was written by Solicitor General Donald Verilli and Thomas Perez (head of the civil rights division), says, ”The Establishment Clause … provides no support for a categorical ministerial exception that would bar adjudication of this case.”

Exceptions for Religious Organizations Targeted by Obama Justice Dept.Interestingly, the administration argues that even if the court does, indeed, reaffirm the exception, it should not apply to teachers in religious schools. “Plaintiffs in that category should be able to proceed with their claims, subject to careful trial management by the district courts and appropriate sensitivity to [church-state] entanglement concerns,” the brief reads.

University of Notre Dame law professor Richard Garnett says that the Justice Department’s stance “is going against what almost every court has decided … it has has taken an outlier position.”

According to The Daily Caller, Barry Lynn, who is the head of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said, “It does seem to do that…it is quite unusual because this administration has not been good on … church-state issues.”

In the end, this could potentially have a great deal of impact on the president’s support among members of the faith community.

(H/T: The Daily Caller)

Comments (231)

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  • Zorba53
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:38am

    ~nudge~ nudge

    Report Post »  
    • Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:08am

      We are past nudge, going fully into shove and soon will be at shoot.

      Report Post » Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}  
    • BetterDays
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:19am

      @snow
      Your correct Bill, that’s where this is going. On a side note I read a story on how farmers in Hondourous were KI.ll.Ed so green energy companies can move in. When asked about the KI.ll.Inge the UN shrugged and said that the planet must be protected.
      I wish the Lord would just hear the ” let’s roll ” from the Father, how much more inequity can there be that’s needed to fill that cup?

      Report Post »  
    • CottonMPG
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:34am

      Although I DO believe religious institutions should be exempt from all employment opportunity regulations, I see the decision of the school to fire this person as foolish since it has opened up the whole religious community to possibly losing all our rights under the most anti-Christian administration in history. So far nearly all the people in authority do not care a whit about original intent. Ever since the rule of law was replaced by the concept of precedent once something is decided on it’s VERY difficult to get it overturned…..at least when it should be.

      Report Post » CottonMPG  
    • DanWesson455
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:35am

      YOU CAN’T HAVE GOD INS A PUBLIC CLASSROOM BUT!!!! We can have Government in a Religous one. We are your God, Your God is not? We (Gov.) win, you lose. Isn’t it amazing that everything only works one way? There is not “Private” life, institutions. There is only payback and this one is for the Teachers Union who hates secular education. They do not have a in there, yet!

      Report Post » DanWesson455  
    • MidWestMom
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 11:30am

      One step closer to dictating what can be said in a sermon & how churches and their members worship. In other words, a government religion. Another in a long list of blatant violations of the Constitution.

      Report Post »  
    • Better Dead Than Red
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:01pm

      Maybe you idiots should read the article before commenting. This woman sued the church- she demanded the courts step in.

      Report Post » Better Dead Than Red  
    • selloursouls
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:22pm

      @ Better dead than red, uh did you read the article? Everyone posting appears to know the lady sued and wanted the courts involved, it’s the involvement of the Obama Administration we have a problem with. Maybe instead of calling everyone else idiots maybe you should hold your tongue and practice more reading comprehension. The point of this article is to inform us that the Obama administration is getting involved in a church/state case that has potential to have a profound impact on the policies of religions in regards to employment.

      Report Post » selloursouls  
    • encinom
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:49pm

      The Justice Dept. is standing up for ADA, lets look at the facts, this is not a Church vs. State issue. the woman at issue was hired to teach secular as well as religious instruction. No one is arguing the right of the Church to select its ministers, this lady was not a minister. If this was anyother private school or private employer the action of the Church would be a violation of ADA. If this was a Church run hospital and a doctor or nurse was terminated for the same reasons given, this would be a violation of ADA.

      Lets change the facts slightly, same teacher, teaching same subject in same school, instead of illness, she is in the army reserves and is called of to Afghanistan, are you willing to argue that the church can fire her also (federal law, enacted under W. protects returning reservist’s jobs).

      Report Post »  
    • Solzhenitsin
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 1:13pm

      They’re just being good Trotskyites: “God is the state and the state is God.”

      Report Post »  
    • NHwinter
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 1:47pm

      If they take this away from Church institutions then it is time to take away the union priviledges which include – exempt from prosecution for union violence, exempt from anti-monopoly laws, government funding for unionism, etc. Every day this administration does something to further the transformation of America to a Marxist/Progressive country. Who can stop this before 2012? Why has no one started impeachment? We will not last till 2012.

      Report Post » NHwinter  
    • techengineer11
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 2:13pm

      All I can say is WOW!

      However, as I’ve stated many times on this site we all need to understand exactly what/who the Obama administration is. It’s basically the same as the former Clinton admin and we need to take a close look at who the real powerbrokers in the two administrations are… Such as Emmanuel, Axelrod, Jarret, Summers, Geitner, Bernanke, Panetta, etc And ask what do they all have in common?

      Unfortunately we are at War America. The only problem is there are far too many Conservatives who are so gullible and trusting that they don’t even recognize it… Turn that damn Zionist run FOX News off and begin to read, study and speak with people who undersand what has happened to our country and what they have planned for us… The hour is late!

      Report Post » techengineer11  
    • DanWesson455
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 2:22pm

      @Better Dead Than Red: Maybe you should look in the mirror, idiot. It is Evangelical Lutheran Church and School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission!! A Church vs. a Government enitity? Got a clue yet? D U M M Y is that in a size 1 or 1 1/2?

      Report Post » DanWesson455  
    • Anonymous T. Irrelevant
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 2:54pm

      When did the F did a “sleeping disorder” become a disability? It’s getting to the point where a hang nail will be considered a disability for people to receive benefits for.

      Report Post » Anonymous T. Irrelevant  
    • Itchee Dryback
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 3:26pm

      They have the schools…they want the churches. When they get 1 more SCOTUS seat they win.

      Report Post »  
    • Itchee Dryback
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 3:34pm

      techengineer11
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 2:13pm
      ______________________________________________

      That made zero sense.

      Report Post »  
    • techengineer11
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 3:52pm

      Itchee Dryback

      I prefer not to spell it out because I want people to see it for themsleves but it makes sense when you realize that we are living under a Jewish Apartheid.

      Report Post » techengineer11  
    • Islesfordian
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 3:56pm

      “this lady was not a minister. ”

      Encinom, teaching is an aspect of the church’s ministry from the beginning. Thus she was in a minissterial position even if it wasn’t an ordained one. I, as a layman, have often served as a lay minister in church education. The State has no business deciding what positions are religious and what aren’t within a church. To do that the State would have to ESTABLISH an official ecclesiology in order to judge between ministerial and non-ministerial. Such establishment is explicitly prohibited.

      Report Post » Islesfordian  
    • encinom
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 5:20pm

      @Islesfordian
      If you read the article she was hired to teach secular subjects. Teaching Math and Science is not teach religion. Were are sole duty to teach and minister the bigle, I would agree with you, but this is nothing more than the church looking for a loop hole to get around labor laws.

      Report Post »  
    • Islesfordian
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 5:51pm

      “who taught both religion and a secular subject ”

      You noted this yourself Encinom. And now you‘re going to mention just the Math and Science and pretend the religion wasn’t part of her teaching? She was a teacher of religion who also taught Math and Science. That makes her position a religious one.

      Besides, when it comes to the church nothing is purely secualr, as religious witness is an integral component of its teaching. Teachers are role models and in a religious school that means that, whatever subject they are teaching, they are still expected to teach through example the principles of faith. thus, even a simple math teacher is a minister of the gospel in the totality of his witness to the students.

      For the state to try to discern and prclaim purely seculart jobs within the church is to claim the powe and authority to define what a church should and shouldn’t do.

      Report Post » Islesfordian  
    • RabidPatriot
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 8:56pm

      Secular government will use any excuse to interject itself in Christian churches. On the flip side, this church’s lack of empathy and lack of Christian like ideals may allow this administration to dictate its rule over all churches. They could have just hired a temp.

      Report Post » RabidPatriot  
    • CottonMPG
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:49pm

      It saddens me to read the ignorant comments some have expressed here. Of course as a teacher in a church school teaches “secular” subjects!! Examples given: math, spelling, grammar, etc.. All church schools teach secular subjects. Would anyone send their child to a school that only taught religious subjects? That does NOT mean the church that runs the school should be subjected to government meddling in their choice of employees!!! If they get away with this next will be forcing similar schools to hire a certain percentage of blacks or Asians and requiring them to hire homosexuals. As for tax exemptions, the religious organizations were always tax exempt. The requirement to file requesting exemption came later. The IRS is the way the government bullies organizations into doing what they want and not doing things they don’t want. Very smart really. We need to get rid of the income tax then we wouldn’t have to deal with them extorting us. We’ll still have property tax and sales tax. They can raise those some to make up the difference.

      Report Post » CottonMPG  
    • encinom
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:41pm

      @CottonMPG

      Part of the 1st Amendment is the Establishment Clause, were by the goverment will not provide any favor to religion. We are in agreement about the ministers, nuns, preachers, etc., but why should a church be exempt from worker rules for its secular employees, the accountants, janitors an teachers, while other tax exempt organizations must follow the rules.

      The Church does not need a loop-hole to allow it to discriminate against any protected class for secular duties.

      Report Post »  
    • Chr1st14n
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 12:19am

      @TECHENGINEER11

      loon.

      Report Post » Chr1st14n  
    • Pigpen
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 5:41am

      Hey what is really FUNNY is that the US Congress is EXEMPT from both the Disabilities Act and the Civil Rights Act! Why is it that NO ONE, not even theBlaze seems to cover the little fact that your Senator or Congressman can turn down your job application based on race, age, ethnicity, or religious persuasion, or if gimpy here in this article had worked for either a Senator or Congressman, she could have been dismissed by them summarily and without recourse. THEY CAN INSIDER TRADE TOO! Yes, it is perfectly legal for Congressman and Senators to trade stocks based upon their considerable insider information. Bet you didn’t know that? Hey Blaze, why not cover the perks and exemptions from the laws the rest of us have to follow that the Senate and Congress enjoy. Bet it would be a REAL eye-opener!

      Report Post » Pigpen  
    • Ruler4You
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 8:14am

      One of the final steps to a fully socialist transitional (to communist) government is to eliminate the religious moral ties that exist between the greater population demographic and the body politik. And the first steps in achieving that ultimate goal is to remove any paradoxical “special” recognition from within government that interferes with that philosophy.

      Report Post » Ruler4You  
    • greengoose
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 8:49am

      They can do anything that their P pickin little hearts desire, They will receive their just reward for this as my Saviors words say; “And Upont This Rock I (JESUS-{ALMIGHTY GOD} I Will Build My Church And The Gates of Hell Will Not Prevail against it. Hear this all of you Critics, do you believe that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west? You can cout on God’s faithfullnes in protecting his people, How stupid is a person to dig his own grave by stupid actions alone, You can’t get wisdom at Harvard university, only a one way ticket to the lake of fire..

      Report Post »  
    • beekeeper
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 9:53am

      @ENCINOM – Let’s review the facts, as outlined above:

      1) Woman has medical issue, which requires extended rest.
      2) She takes a leave of absence from her job
      3) Employer hires a replacement and ASKS the original teacher to resign.
      4) Doctor clears teacher to return to work.
      5) Teacher threatens to sue/take school to court.
      6) In reaction to teacher’s threat of legal action, school decided to let her go (fire her).
      7) Teacher files court case, despite “miniterial exemption”, a 40 year-old legal protection afforded to churches.

      She was fired, not for her disease, but for being a litigous pain the butt – as far as I know, that condition (litigous pain-in-the-butt) is NOT covered under ADA.

      Report Post » beekeeper  
    • encinom
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 10:44am

      @beekeeper
      Actually, according to your facts, see was fired when they didn’t perserve her job when she returned (a violation under ADA) and than the Church retailated when she dare assert her rights under the law.

      Report Post »  
    • Islesfordian
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 1:00pm

      “Part of the 1st Amendment is the Establishment Clause, were by the goverment will not provide any favor to religion.”

      That’s not what ESTABLISHMENT means, encinom. It says means that no PARTICULAR religion will be favored to the detriment of any other, or to no religion. No religious tests or qualifications for State privileges or rights are allowed.

      the Separation of Church and State is the doctrine that claims the no establishment clause can only be maintained if the State stays out of Church business, part of that business being deciding what constitutes church business. It’s a WALL of separation against te State. Walls mean KEEP OUT

      And SCOTUS has just signalled that that is exactly how they read the law. Even the 9th Circuit says you’re wrong.

      Report Post » Islesfordian  
    • dianeehs
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 4:24pm

      As AZGOLDGUNS said about the churches: The British burnt Americans who were meeting in their churches during the Revolution. Did anyone think it wouldn’t be repeated by the Left in their revolution? Al Jazeera says that they have built the ovens to rid the Earth of the Jews. Re-run of the Holocaust. History repeats itself. History repeats itself…..

      Report Post » dianeehs  
    • HeyLanny
      Posted on October 6, 2011 at 9:31am

      I agree with the nudge, shove and shoot sequence taking place. And when you begin to see these things know that they will come as a flood.

      Report Post » HeyLanny  
  • dsm
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:37am

    If the government is allowed to have any say on anything that goes on in churches, IT IS OVER!!!!!!!!

    Report Post »  
    • BetterDays
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:27am

      @DSM,
      Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but the FEDERAL government has been meddling with sermon topics and more since church’s started getting tax breaks. More so now, because of the office of faith based initiatives begun under Bush, and out of control under Obamas office.
      We’ve had a defacto State church, but not an “only church”, or the last church available thing, yet.
      I guess church’s set themselves up for that, trusting man ( tax breaks ) instead of GOD, dependence upon GOD’s abundant good favor to pay the tax bill in full. GOD has never liked luke warm faith.

      Report Post »  
    • JGraham III
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:52am

      I have been telling the pastor of my church for some time now that the time to surrender the 501c3 is far past and it may be time to ‘go underground’ as it were. Persecution is coming just as sure as Jesus Christ’s return is. It is only a matter of time before the Obama Admin et al start to tax church property and collections as well as giving certificates of “approval” to pastors and priests so that they toe the gov’t line. This is what the Church under communism looks like; only the approved world church will be allowed to function and only to “show” the world that there is still separation of church and state…no gospel of Jesus Christ, only “social justice”. They fear Jesus Christ and His name spoken on the lips of believers.
      There is hope however! The First Century Church thrived under brutal persecution from the Roman Empire and others because they had a message of hope and healing. So will the 21st Century Church if they return to their 1st Century roots. Because the early Church met in the homes of believers and weren’t sitting ducks (like most churches today) the persecutors had a harder time finding them. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

      Report Post »  
    • Bullhorn Guy
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 11:36am

      JGraham, the church is already thriving under brutal persecution…just not the American church. China, India, N. Korea, Iran. Those are all places where people place their faith in Christ at the risk of their own lives. We don’t know anything about that in this country yet, but we will.

      Report Post » Bullhorn Guy  
    • Bearfoot
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 1:54pm

      Bullhorn Guy,

      Also in S. Korea and Russia. We are living in very serious and dangerous times.

      http://www.jw-media.org/index.html

      Report Post » Bearfoot  
    • encinom
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 2:00pm

      The Churches have been abusing this exception, not to protect the hiring of ministers, but to strip their secular workers, like teachers, of the job protection others in the private sector enjoy.

      Report Post »  
    • Islesfordian
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 8:16pm

      Your logic is so mind numbingly backward, Encinom. You can’t “srtip” people of that which they never had. It is the government which is trying to establish private sector job protection for religious institutions. And who gets to say who are religious and who are “secular” workers in a religious institution? The government stayed out of this in the first place because it recognized it didn’t have the authority to intrude into the workings of church organizations. if it decides it has the authority to declare church schools as being not part of the church it has effectively nullified the wall of separation.

      Report Post » Islesfordian  
    • encinom
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 12:37pm

      @Islesfordian
      Teaching math, science, english or any other secular subject is not central to the mision of a Church (worship of some sky father). The Churchis nothing more than another tax-exempt organization and give it a pass on employment laws that are not mission critical is a violation of the establishment clause.

      Report Post »  
  • wifezilla
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:30am

    Seeing how some of the religous organization in my area treat people (low wages, no benefits, long hours and no overtime) I am having a hard time getting upset about this.

    Report Post » wifezilla  
    • Locked
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:46am

      While it’s unfortunate that that happens (and that the woman who brought the suit was thrown under the bus by her church-based employer), I still don’t think it justifies voiding the ministerial exception. Lower courts have ruled that the Establishment Clause covers the exception; I expect the Supreme Court will agree with that precedent.

      Report Post »  
    • JRook
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:52am

      If it is a question of the ADA and a religious school, not a church. I would say the employment discrimination law would represent a reasonable refinement of the church exception. But of course this is part of a much wider conspiracy against Christianity. Frankly, you would think a church organization would have more empathy than they are showing, so perhaps they are an example of why the exception needs to be limited.

      Report Post »  
    • Gonzo
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:59am

      and are these poor people in your area forced to work there or do they choose to work there? Benefits are given to attract employees not some “human right”. Maybe the people that work there are doing it out of a sense of duty to the church. Maybe if they started paying the benefits you seem to think are basic, half the work force would have to be let go. Then of course those institutions would again be considered evil in your sight.

      Report Post » Gonzo  
    • BSdetector
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:13am

      @wifezilla Oh no, a charity that doesn’t pay people top wages and asks them to “donate” time to their cause? What human-rights a travesty!

      Report Post » BSdetector  
    • Liberalismsamentaldisorder
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:42am

      Then don’t go to work there. See? Simple. It’s called freedom. They’re a poor place to work? So nobody then works for them, so they have to offer better treatment. That’s called The Free Market.

      Report Post »  
    • sWampy
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 11:06am

      Man our churches work different, the average family income in our church is around $30k, the pastor makes over $100k, gets a house, car, gas, insurance, 100% of social security paid, all utilities paid. All the others get paid way above average, heck, even the secretary and janitors get full rides at the local baptist college included.

      Report Post »  
    • mzk1
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 11:38am

      This could really kill the Jewish schools. Requiring homosexual teachers, or even heterosexual ones (my all male high school did not hire female teachers), teachers of another religion for religious subjects, co-ed schools… We are already on the margin, with kids being forced out of the system for lack of money, and since we don’t missionize, we do not take in non-Jewish students, and many schools make religious demands of the students.

      Report Post »  
    • Justathinkin
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:23pm

      @Wifezilla

      I had this wonderful response all typed out for you, but then I realized that it wouldn’t change the fact that you have no respect for the Works that a church does. That no amount of information or thoughtfully written responses were going to enlighten you to the fact that churches are good places full of good people doing good things. I pray that someday your heart gets softened and your mind opened to the Message, that one day you will truly see the Glory and Grace of the Lord in you and your life.

      Report Post »  
    • Walkabout
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:29pm

      I remember someone looking for work with a graduate degree. A local charity run by a church only paid 14K per year. They ended up working for a local community college. No BENEFITS. Higher EDUCATION HR was very scrupulous in making sure that they were part time & never worked more than 30 hours. But there is always a way. They are working full time for much more money & it isn’t for a community college that is EEOC (oh so) perfect (ya right).

      Report Post »  
    • dr emil shuffhausen
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:34pm

      It‘s a person’s choice to work for low wages, long hours, etc. They can go work somewhere else, right?
      If it’s a poorly run organization then low wages will probably be the norm and morale will be low. If the message is good and people flock to it, their should be more money available to pay people a better wage assuming the organization wants to grow and attract the best and brightest. But it’s still a choice to work there.

      Report Post » dr emil shuffhausen  
    • Solzhenitsin
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 1:28pm

      Swampy, your church sounds the opposite of mine. The pastor makes about as much as my spouse and I do together (under $35,000) and the secretary gets about $200/mo (only 5 hrs a week- her second job). I believe the janitor makes a little more, but it’s a second job for him too.

      80% of all American pastorates are to congregations of 200 or less and most of them can’t afford to pay over $50K yearly. Our church can barely keep up with maintainance projects after payroll and other operating expenses are met.

      Report Post »  
    • Midwestgirl1116
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 1:30pm

      It is called ‘The Free’ Market’ Wifezilla. If they don’t like the wages, overtime etc–than they should leave. DUH!!!

      Report Post »  
    • audiemurphy
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 3:23pm

      @Encinom
      So if a religious institution or church hires a teacher , janitor, whatever and bases the hiring on his or her availability and moral standards and then that employee is not meeting those requirements at
      some point and is let go from their employment, you believe the government should now
      be able to dictate the law to that church?
      Go live in a communist country or dictatorship you simpleminded fool!

      Report Post » audiemurphy  
    • Rabidconservative
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 3:58pm

      What this will open up and in my opinion the intent is forced hiring of homosexuals into the faith community.

      Report Post » Rabidconservative  
    • encinom
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 5:24pm

      audiemurphy
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 3:23pm
      @Encinom
      So if a religious institution or church hires a teacher , janitor, whatever and bases the hiring on his or her availability and moral standards and then that employee is not meeting those requirements at
      some point and is let go from their employment, you believe the government should now
      be able to dictate the law to that church?
      Go live in a communist country or dictatorship you simpleminded fool!
      ____________________________________
      I want the Church to treat those it hires for secular roles as any employer would. There is no prohibition against hiring someone based on morals, there are base on gender, marraige/childern, veteran and active duty status, disability, age (the Federal government does not yet reconize sexual orientation, while several states do).

      Report Post »  
  • GEW
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:30am

    You have to eliminate the “true believers truth system” to eliminate them. Christian are under attack all over the world. American Christians are the last line of defense against this evil. This action taken is not just going to address the employees, it will be used to control the hiring, voice and doctrine of Christian churches.

    Report Post » GEW  
  • kickagrandma
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:29am

    NO!
    My answer is
    NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
    NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

    obamamust GO!

    NOW! We cannot wait for 2012, folks. We are out of time.

    Stay the course. PRAY. Then, STAND IN JESUS’ NAME. No other name matters.

    Report Post »  
    • CS_GUY
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:09am

      Amen!

      Report Post »  
    • BetterDays
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:39am

      HI Gma,
      Sorry dear, but there is not enough honor or integrity in DC to forestall the inevitable decline of America. I’ve spent days in prayer over this, the insipid protesters on Wall Street, and the “ top down” response they’ve had planned for years, it is going to get much, much, much, less free in America very soon. I felt that if righteous men in congress would only START impeachment proceedings, that action would prevent Obama from doing anything by executive order, and give us time to last him out. But there seems to be no righteous men, only Ron Paul, and one man does not an impeachment garner. That and the peace that I have inside over what’s coming, a peace that passes all understanding, a peace that says ” be still and know that I AM Lord. “.
      I’m like goji suspect, I really LOVE my country, and countrymen ( even the ones that desperately don’t deserve it ) and don’t want this NOW, but trying to move a mountain in faith only works when the Father wants that mountain to move, this mountain is unmoving. I need to accept that, and just prepare spiritually as best I can, the physical stuff I’m trusting in GOD for.
      May GODs abundant good favor bless you exceeding abundantly, filled up, shaken, tamped down, refilled running over.

      Report Post »  
    • mr molotov cocktail
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:30pm

      take the church out of big business then! its a zero some game
      churchs are involved in-it tax them

      Report Post » mr molotov cocktail  
    • Solzhenitsin
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 1:36pm

      Molotov, churches aren’t in “big business”, and the establishment clause is the foundation of their tax exempt status. The foundational principle of “no taxation without representation” holds that if they pay taxes, they must be represented in government. That would violate the establishment clause since representation would make the majority religion the defacto state church.

      Report Post »  
  • LMW
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:28am

    If this is successful then that means the walls are down and they would have to hire pedifiles,rapests,robbers and other people who you can’t discriminate against. A church should be able to hire who they think best fits their interests not the Governments.“Please my Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. Our souls are being tormitted as was said so hold true my children for soon the sun will shine again.

    Report Post »  
    • Windwalker
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:34am

      That is exactly where this will lead. Sooner or later, they will apply this to hiring homosexuals, transexuals, etc….then they will dictate the curriculum. It is a Pandora’s box.

      Report Post »  
    • jay1975
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:41pm

      I thought the Catholic church was full of those already.

      Report Post »  
    • Solzhenitsin
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 1:42pm

      No reason to force them on the rest of us, Jay.

      Report Post »  
  • NOMOBIGDRAMANOBAMA
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:28am

    Eric Holder is attempting a BHO! Or a Bill Clinton. He has to get people focused somewhere other than on the Solenda scandal, the Fast and Furious scandal and the Light Squared scandal. He will therefore attempt to reverse his position on the separation of church and state issue hoping people like you and me will fall for his BS. Yes, he is in bed with the unions and so is his boss, but he can’t have it both ways. On the one hand there is separation but on the other only when it is politically expedient. Not so Eric! You are a dirtbag of the first water and nothing you do or say will fix your stupidity,

    Report Post »  
    • Walkabout
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:33pm

      Which is why we need a score sheet & be able to send emails to Congress people in several or a few score of problems regularly. We have to agitate. Send letters to the editor. We have to organize.

      If they have are attempting to change a few score of things (policies/laws/court rulings), then we have to do the same.

      If we do that, then they can’t use one item as a decoy & change several other laws out of sight (news media) & out of mind..

      Report Post »  
  • Harpotoo
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:25am

    If there is separation of church & state if you are an employee of the church you work under church rules not state rules. This is a free country, if you don’t like working for the Church, QUIT & go elsewhere.

    Report Post » Harpotoo  
  • AZGodGoldGuns
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:25am

    Can you say, “Unions in Private Schools” and the government telling private schools what they can and can not teach. This is just the beginning.

    Report Post »  
  • jakartaman
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:24am

    Barry had best be careful – when the Republicans take complete control of congress and the WH. You can bet there will be investigations of this criminal administration.
    They will also undue every thing this socialist has done to this country over his reign.

    Report Post »  
    • NOMOBIGDRAMANOBAMA
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:30am

      We better vet the candidates completely to make certain that they REALLY WILL overturn all of BHO’s rules, regs and laws or we could end up stuck with them and another BHO in sheep’s clothing.

      Report Post »  
    • BetterDays
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:43am

      Pray in Ernest that we get another election, pray without ceasing.

      Report Post »  
    • iblvingd
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:14pm

      We ought to discuss what we know about the candidates. Perry for one is Aligned with the Bilderbergers attended a convention in Istanbul Turkey 2007 and as governor has furthered the agenda of Agenda 21. So he is BHO’s white clone.

       
  • Tovia
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:23am

    Guess separation of Church and State only works one way! Opposite from the way the framers of the constitution intended!

    Report Post » Tovia  
  • papabear27
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:23am

    Ladies and Gentlemen – Imagine just how much the UNEMPLOYMENT rate will SKYROCKET to more than 50% when these idiots in our Justice Department start counting all of the teachers in Christians schools who DO NOT belong to unions are FIRED or “voted out” by their congregations. I really thought that the President and his “team” of czars wanted in the unemployment rate to go down and not up! Silly me, how could I have been so wrong (sarcasm emphasized)

    Report Post »  
  • Jack of Hearts
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:21am

    Laws should apply equally to all employees. Do you really want Federal or state Laws that can’t be enforced against Islamic organisations? As the article states, we’re not talking about clergy but about other employees. You can’t “opt out” of laws you don’t like – attractive though that option might be – on the grounds of religion. In medieval times there used to be a law of “sanctuary”. If you’d committed a crime (even murder) you could take refuge in a church and the civil authorities couldn’t touch you. Is anyone suggesting we go back to those days? Is the church above the law?

    Report Post » Jack of Hearts  
    • Windwalker
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:31am

      Frankly, we are already in “those days” . Aliens, who are in this country illegally, are finding refuge in more than one denomination of church in the U.S. as I write this post. Most likely not murderers or bank robbers, but breaking the law just the same.

      Report Post »  
    • Locked
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:55am

      “Is the church above the law?”

      Obviously not, but the church is protected by the law. The law up to this point has been interpreted to mean that churches can hire whom they want… and fire them for any reason. Lower courts have ruled this interpretation of the establishment clause; now it’s up to the Supreme Court to decide as the final arbiter. I expect they will agree with all the prior courts, as court precedent is often used to back up their decisions.

      And frankly, I’m fine with it. I don’t need nor want the government involved in my faith; and yes, faith affects more than just the clergy. It affects the religious schools children attend, the workers at their churches… church, a faith, is more than just the priest, pastor, rabbi, or imam.

      Report Post »  
    • Jack of Hearts
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 11:32am

      @ Locked
      OK, so you’re fine with my plan to set up the Church of Jack and employ 7 year olds to manufacture asbestos fireworks at 10c an hour? They will have to work 20 hour days or I’ll fire them. No tax payable of course I’m a church.

      Report Post » Jack of Hearts  
    • Locked
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 11:51am

      Child labor is not part of the exemption. You might want to choose something that actually falls within the scope before making an outlandish example ;-)

      Good luck on your Church of Jack though.

      Report Post »  
    • Jack of Hearts
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:18pm

      So why isn’t child labor part of the exemption? I shall draft my business plan accordingly. The point I was making – and which you’ve confirmed is that there ARE justified areas where Federal law applies. The only discussion here is about the extent of civil government control. Thanks for helping me make the point.

      Report Post » Jack of Hearts  
    • selloursouls
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:41pm

      The problem with your business-to-be is that you expect parents to have their kids apply. I really don’t care who you hire, but I doubt anyone would be willing today to have their children work in your hypothetical plant. Child labor laws were employed to prevent parents from having their kids work. When all in the household are working that means more money coming in to support the family. Personally, if part of your business practice was hiring children, I really wouldn’t care, because no one is forced to have their children work for you.

      I worked on a dairy farm when I was fourteen for $2.00 an hour and worked 55-60 hour weeks and sometimes 70 hours, no overtime,no benefits, and I paid taxes and everything. Guess what farms are exempt from child labor laws so your argument is specious.

      Report Post » selloursouls  
    • Locked
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 1:24pm

      @Jack
      “So why isn’t child labor part of the exemption? I shall draft my business plan accordingly. The point I was making – and which you’ve confirmed is that there ARE justified areas where Federal law applies.”

      No kidding. Who said anything about it not applying at all? There‘s a reason it’s an exception, not a blanket rule. The exception (I mistakenly said exemption before) allows religious groups to exercise their preference according to their religion and requires employees to conform to the religion.

      If your church of Jack is all about child labor and asbestos, best of luck getting it accepted by the government in the first place. As I said before, the law protects religions; and the current law has so far been interpreted to allow non-clergy employees to be discriminated against based on their religion and values.

      Report Post »  
    • Solzhenitsin
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 1:49pm

      There are very tight rules and regulations that encapsulate churches, probably so every Tom, Dick , Harry and Jack can‘t go around setting up bogus ’churches’ to avoid taxes. A church has to be very careful if it rents its building to another religious group; both groups MUST have tax- exempt numbers and status. If one of them has accidently let their status expire they can both end up taxed even though the nature of their organizations have not changed

      Report Post »  
    • encinom
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 10:45pm

      @Locked

      The problem that this case makes evident is that the Church has used the establishment clause as a loop-hole with regards to labor rights for secular workers. This has allowed the Churhc to ignore anti-discrimination laws when hiring secular staff. By secular I mean those whose duty is not to preach the bible, like a math or science teacher or a janitor.

      Report Post »  
  • proudfather2
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:21am

    Most Libidiots want to cry “SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE” when it is trying to get God out of something, well that door swings both ways. 1st of all SOCS does not even appear in the constitution it was in a letter written by jefferson to a widow who was worried about the goverment running the church! with that said if we are going to hold on to that idea then the goverment needs to get out of the way and let the “seperation” keep them out of this churches business!

    Report Post » proudfather2  
    • GENEPAGLIARI
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:30am

      A men!

      Report Post »  
    • bikerr
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 11:53am

      Stop clouding the issue with facts. These people are liberals, they don’t need no stinking facts!

      Report Post »  
  • Harpotoo
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:21am

    Will the SCOTUS approve COMMUNISM cause isn’t that what this is? Government controlled Churches and Temples just like in China?

    Report Post » Harpotoo  
  • MARCH4HIM
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:20am

    So if you hire sombody of same faith and they change their belief, under this new law they want to pass ..If .said person was let go ..theycould file lawsuit under discrimination…well their goes the neiborhood….

    Report Post » MARCH4HIM  
  • Locked
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:10am

    To start:
    “University of Notre Same law professor Richard Garnett”

    Pretty sure that should be Notre Dame, not Same ;-)

    But I agree with the professor; it seems to go against what lower courts have ruled. I expect the Supreme Court will rule based on precedent and not in favor of the woman. Unfortunately it kinda bites for her; her employer threw her under the bus and she has no legal recourse. Oh well, probably better to not work for a religious organization next time!

    Report Post »  
    • IntransigentMind
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:21am

      Obama‘s war on America won’t end until he’s gone from office.

      Report Post »  
    • nanalynn
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:33am

      Are you sure it’s not, ‘Notre Shame’? That university is suppose to be representative of religious beliefs and yet they invited a person KNOWN to support INFANTICIDE, [murdering a baby within 24 hours of their birth], to give an address to their students. At the very least, the difference between GOOD and EVIL should be clear. Who’s the person that suppoorts and believes in the murder of viable infants within 24 hours of their birth? b. hussein obama. Why not do your own research and confirm FACTS before you throw your opinions out there? Thank you.

      Report Post »  
    • Locked
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:43am

      … seriously, what the heck are you going on about? I’m pretty sure Hallowell spelled the name incorrectly (Same instead of Dame).

      For the rest of your rant, seek help, you’re likely a danger to yourself. It‘s like you think I’m arguing that Notre Dame is awesome instead of the spelling of its name.

      Report Post »  
    • Solzhenitsin
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 2:03pm

      How is this different than any other private employer who hires “at will” and whose contract reserves the right to fire for any or no reason?

      Report Post »  
    • Locked
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 2:20pm

      She fell under the scope of the Americans with Disability legislation, which is federal legislation that would trump a state’s “at will” employment system.

      Report Post »  
  • Harold B
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:09am

    Encroach and control. It is very necessary for the government to eliminate Christianity and Christian ideas from the market place of ideas in America.. Our government is bringing in millions of Islamic (jihadists) immigrants for social engineering to divide and overtake the church. Write your favotite liberal Judge and tell her to use all the powers of the court to eliminate Christianity from America it is the courts job because Congress is forbidden to do it by our Constitution

    Report Post »  
    • Gonzo
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:17am

      Government IS their church and god.

      Report Post » Gonzo  
  • ColoradoMaverick
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:09am

    The Obama administration is doubling down on their efforts to ruin America. They know that the chances of being re-elected diminish with each passing day and they intend to rape a pillage our country until they are forced out of office.

    Report Post » ColoradoMaverick  
    • GENEPAGLIARI
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:12am

      Let’ turn owe bama into go bama. Impeach today!

      Report Post »  
    • vennoye
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:31am

      Just another nudge down the road they want to go!! Good grief people, if they can’t make us mad enough to get civil disobedience out in the streets, how are they ever gonna have things bad enough to postpone the elections!

      Report Post » vennoye  
  • Welcome Black Carter
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:08am

    “In the end, this could potentially have a great deal of impact on the president’s support among members of the faith community.”

    Really? I think his actions speak much louder than his words.

    Report Post » Welcome Black Carter  
  • Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:08am

    This is one more assault on the church and those who refuse to go along with the Social Justice sets of garbage from the administration; soon enough, the next step will be the Fed’s telling us how to worship and when and where, it will be made compulsery for all who worship to register with the state, and at the first sign of any dissent from the state messages approved of…its the wall.

    Report Post » Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}  
    • Gonzo
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:28am

      If you tithe by check, they already know when and where you worship. Thank the Dodd Financial Reform bill and the Democrats.

      Report Post » Gonzo  
  • GENEPAGLIARI
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:08am

    We must keep government out of the churches. It is absolutely constitutional to do this. That is the separation of church and state that Jefferson referred to, not the perverted version that we are being force-fed today. Separation of church and state is not in the Constitution.

    Report Post »  
    • mr molotov cocktail
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:29pm

      and then church should stay out of big business-
      and i am telling you churchs are into big-business-
      why should it be one set of rules for everyone else! and another for fake christians!

      Report Post » mr molotov cocktail  
    • Solzhenitsin
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 2:13pm

      Molotov- wrong again, but then that’s not surprising. This is a nation of laws, you don’t get to pick a group and persecute them because you feel like it.

      Report Post »  
  • JLGunner
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:07am

    Anytime barack and his lawyers get together to do anything, you can be sure that personal freedoms will be lost.

    Report Post » JLGunner  
    • TX_45_ACP
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:22am

      Very true, In fact, each morning that he gets up out of bed, you can be sure that nothing good will come of it.

      Report Post » TX_45_ACP  
  • Gonzo
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:04am

    All good communists know that they need government control of the church before they can fulfill their ultimate objective…elimination of the church.

    Report Post » Gonzo  
    • NOMOBIGDRAMANOBAMA
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:43am

      And the guns! They must disarm the citizens as well.

      Report Post »  
    • Bearfoot
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 2:11pm

      Gonzo,
      You are right about governments wanting to eliminate religions.
      An interesting read is Revelation chapters 17 and 18 concerning “Babylon the Great”.

      Our task is to identify who the players are in this great prophecy which is about to be fulfilled.

      Report Post » Bearfoot  
    • pamela kay
      Posted on October 5, 2011 at 3:52am

      Well said. Wasn’t this lady aware of this when she took the job? How do we know her past work history? Maybe she had a bad record prior to her illness. To allow the government to gain control within our churches will open the door for them to strip us of our faith. Obama can claim to be a Christian but his actions prove otherwise. Will this apply to the Mosques as well?

      Report Post » pamela kay  
  • Marylou7
    Posted on October 4, 2011 at 9:03am

    This administration just wants to rid America of God, the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Report Post » Marylou7  
    • jay1975
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:49pm

      What about the god of Moses, or the god of Mohammed, or the god of thunder, or the god of war etc…? Seems that there have been many gods in man’s history. Why is your god the one true god and not the god of the Jews or that of the Muslims? I know, you think your god is the god of the Jews, but they disagree with you.

      Report Post »  
    • Itchee Dryback
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 3:29pm

      jay1975
      Posted on October 4, 2011 at 12:49pm

      What about the god of Moses, or the god of Mohammed, or the god of thunder, or the god of war etc…? Seems that there have been many gods in man’s history.
      _______________________________________________________________

      The context is not all of mans history.
      Its context is the USA.
      Hope that helps.

      Report Post »  
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