Pastor Fired After Backing New Rob Bell Book Questioning Hell
- Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:42am by
Jonathon M. Seidl
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Rev Chad Holtz, who was let go after backing Rob Bell's theology in "Love Wins."
DURHAM, N.C. (The Blaze/AP) — When Chad Holtz lost his old belief in hell, he also lost his job.
The pastor of a rural United Methodist church in North Carolina wrote a note on his Facebook page supporting a new book by Rob Bell, a prominent young evangelical pastor and critic of the traditional view of hell as a place of eternal torment for billions of damned souls.
Two days later, Holtz was told complaints from church members prompted his dismissal from Marrow’s Chapel in Henderson.
“I think justice comes and judgment will happen, but I don’t think that means an eternity of torment,” Holtz said. “But I can understand why people in my church aren’t ready to leave that behind. It‘s something I’m still grappling with myself.”
The debate over Bell’s new book “Love Wins” has quickly spread across the evangelical precincts of the Internet, in part because of an eye-catching promotional video posted on YouTube.
Read our original report on Bell’s book.
Bell, the pastor of the 10,000-member Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Mich., lays out the premise of his book while the video cuts away to an artist’s hand mixing oil paints and pastels and applying them to a blank canvas.
He describes going to a Christian art show where one of the pieces featured a quote by Mohandas Gandhi. Someone attached a note saying: “Reality check: He’s in hell.”
“Gandhi’s in hell? He is? And someone knows this for sure?” Bell asks in the video.
In the book, Bell criticizes the belief that a select number of Christians will spend eternity in the bliss of heaven while everyone else is tormented forever in hell.
Rob Bell, author of "Love Wins," questions traditional views of Heaven and hell.
“This is misguided and toxic and ultimately subverts the contagious spread of Jesus’ message of love, peace, forgiveness and joy that our world desperately needs to hear,” he writes in the book.
For many traditional Christians, though, Bell’s new book sounds a lot like the old theological position of universalism – a heresy for many churches, teaching that everyone, regardless of religious belief, will ultimately be saved by God. And that, they argue, dangerously misleads people about the reality of the Christian faith.
“I just felt like on every page he‘s trying to say ’It’s OK,’” said Southern Baptist Seminary President Albert Mohler at a forum last week on Bell’s book held at the Louisville institution. “And there’s a sense in which we desperately want to say that. But the question becomes, on what basis can we say that?”
Watch MSNBC host Martin Bashir grill Bell in an interview.
Bell argues that hell has assumed an outsize importance in Christian teaching, considering the word itself only appears in the New Testament about 12 times, by his count.
“For a 1st-century Jewish rabbi, where you go when you die wasn’t the most pressing question,” Bell told The Associated Press. “The question was how can you enter into the shalom and peace of God right now, this day.”
Bell denies he’s a universalist, and his exact beliefs on what happens to people after death are hard to pin down, but he argues that such speculation distracts people from an urgent point. In his telling, hell is something freely chosen that already exists on earth, in everything from war to abusive relationships.
The near-relish with which some Christians stress the torments of hell, Bell argues, keep many believers needlessly afraid of a loving God, and repel potential Christians who might otherwise be curious about the faith’s teachings.
Bell's book released last week.
“The heart of the Christian story is that God is love,” he said. “But when you hear the word ‘Christian,‘ you don’t necessarily think ‘Oh, sure, those are the people who don‘t stop talking about God’s love.’ Some other things would come to mind.”
About the only thing everyone agrees on is that this is not a new debate in Christianity. It stretches to antiquity, when Christianity was a persecuted sect in the Roman Empire, and the third century theologian Origen developed a theory that contemporary critics charged would mean that everyone, even the devil himself, would ultimately be saved. Church leaders eventually condemned ideas they attributed to Origen, but he has had a lasting influence across the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant traditions.
Those traditions often disagree, even internally, on what awaits souls after death. The Catholic Church, which has a formal process for identifying souls in heaven through canonization, pointedly refrains from saying that anyone is without a doubt in hell. Protestants reject the concept of purgatory, in which sins can be atoned for after death, but disagree on other questions. The lack of consensus is enabled partly by ambiguities in the Bible.
Evangelical opposition to Bell is exemplified in a succinct tweet from prominent evangelical pastor John Piper: “Farewell, Rob Bell.”
Page Brooks, a professor at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, thinks Bell errs in a conception of a loving God that leaves out the divine attributes of justice and holiness.
“It’s love, but it’s a just love,” Brooks said. “God is love, but you have to understand you‘re a sinner and the only way to get around that is through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.”
Making his new belief public is both liberating and a little frightening for Holtz, even though his doubts about traditional doctrines on damnation began long before he heard about Rob Bell’s book.
A married Navy veteran with five children, Holtz spent years trying to reconcile his belief that Jesus Christ’s death on the cross redeemed the entire world with the idea that millions of people – including millions who had never even heard of Jesus – were suffering forever in hell.
“We do these somersaults to justify the monster god we believe in,” he said. “But confronting my own sinfulness, that’s when things started to topple for me. Am I really going to be saved just because I believe something, when all these good people in the world aren’t?”
Holtz plans to move to Tennessee, where he might plant a church.
Gray Southern, United Methodist district superintendent for the part of North Carolina that includes Henderson, declined to discuss Holtz’s departure in detail, but said there was more to it than the online post about Rob Bell’s book.
“That’s between the church and him,” Southern said.
Church members had also been unhappy with Internet posts about subjects like gay marriage and the mix of religion and patriotism, Holtz said, and the hell post was probably the last straw. Holtz and his family plan to move back to Tennessee, where he’ll start a job and maybe plant a church.
“So long as we believe there’s a dividing point in eternity, we’re going to think in terms of us and them,” he said. “But when you believe God has saved everyone, the point is, you’re saved. Live like it.”
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Comments (842)
WSGAC
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:25amI love Bell’s line in his video clip where he sums up what hell lovers truly believe: “Jesus rescues you from God.”
Kind of an odd message. God so loved the world that he sent his Son to rescue you from Himself? Just believe the right things and Jesus will save you from God. Wonderful!
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:36amIt also seems a bit warped! If hell serves to underscore the “justice” of God, what is “just” about sustaining someone eternally in fire and torment? I think we can get the point that God is just without being eternally waterbooarded. Indeed, if God sends one to be eternally waterboarded this suggests something about God.
Others would counter, “God sends no one to hell; they send themsevles there!” Ok, but God must sustain such a person in hell, as his/her existence in hell or anywhere else is contingent upon God’s willing that existence. And if God eternally sustains a person in firey torment, what does this say about God? Is eternal torment truly needed to underscore God’s justice? And at what point does justice morph into sadism?
Report Post »richfromflorida
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:26am@WSGAC, Jesus did come to give you a way to be saved from God’s wrath. Once you have a soul you will exist forever, the only question is where. If you accept Jesus as your offering you are covered by His blood. If not, you stand on your own accord during judgment and you will be found wanting.
Your pondering about what kind of God would send people to hell is a distraction from the real issue at hand.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:59pmIt was pretty evident he was talking about Jesus rescuing people from an understanding of a mean vindictive gonna kill everyone sort of God. He rescued people from a false understanding of God. Since Jesus was prone to reteach the true God often to the people of his time then that concept still stands today with anyone having a backwards understanding about God today. For example, many have no qualms with the idea of THEIR VERSION OF GOD roasting peoples’ bodies in flames for eternity. At least get your damned facts straight before you complain.
Report Post »loveartgirl
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:24pmYou guys do not have a clear understanding at all about what hell means. Hell is probably symbolic and not literal fire and brimstones, but it’s symbolic of something bad enough that Jesus deemed it a good trade to die on a cross to save us from it. Hell is simply the complete absence of God.
CS Lewis says it well in “The Great Divorce” : “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.” And may I add for the sake of this conversation that without Hell, there could be no self-choice…it is simply the alternative to eternity spent with God…which would be truly terrible indeed.
Report Post »dthej
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:24amThis Pastor raises a legitimate question about Hell. Could a loving God who sent his only son to die such a horrific death for the salvation of many also send countless millions to an eternal life of torment? On the surface alone it makes no sense. How many of you who have a wayward child could live in heaven peacefully knowing your child was at that same moment being tortured in Hell?
Report Post »Like so many teachings in the bible you’ll find many interpretations and regardless of how many interpretations there are there can only be one truth, so either there is or will be an eternal place of torment for sinners or there is or won’t be.
If there is such a place then Jesus Christ visited it himself since he died with mankind’s sins yet did he ever make mention of his trip there? What happens at death? Read the scripture, “the dead know not anything.” How can this be if there is a place reserved for torment after death? Now what does the scripture say about Hell? It is called the eternal lake of fire or Hades so comparing scripture to scripture if the dead know not anything and if Hell is fire then this fire must consume or eternally eliminate all sin including those with whom rejected God’s mercy after the 2nd resurrection. The bible clearly says the gift of salvation is eternal life so what is the opposite of eternal life? Eternal death.
God’s justice will not have been eliminated, only those who reject him.
Read your history books, you’ll discover where the torment in hell doctrine originated from, it was the Catholic Church so as to fear the church or more specific to fill it’s coffers.
artman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:53amNot for the salvation of “many”. That was before Paul. With Paul’s gospel it was for the salvation of “all”. For those who chose to accept it. Check out the scriptures as to how things changed with Paul “But now,….). Jesus came to the Jews. It is those small differences in language that shows how different Paul‘s message was from that of Jesus’ and Peter’s.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:29amJesus desceded into Hell (Hades) before the Resurrection and preached to the dead there, 1 Peter 3:18-20. This is not the same place as the Hell of destruction (Gehenna) seen in Revelation.
Report Post »drevalynn
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 3:03pm@ ARTMAN
Report Post »You brought up Paul instructing Timothy:
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Knowingthetruth
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:57pmRead Revelation…the whole book.
Report Post »gravitycheck36
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 11:48pmParadise is where the Souls of the “Righteous Dead” Are Since Christ’s Resurrection. (Eph. 2:8-10; Rev. 1:18; 2 Cor. 12:1-4). Hell is a holding place until judgment day for the abode of the souls of the wicked dead. (Luke 16:19-31). The Lake of Fire is the place for the ones who were in Hell until Judgement Day at The Great White Throne and then casted into The Lake of Fire for all eternity. (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 19:20; Rev. 20:10). They are all separate places made by God.
Report Post »Leadthemtothelight
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:23amJames 1:22-25
Report Post »But don‘t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise you are only fooling yourselves. For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror. You see yourself ,walk away and forget what you look like. But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.
artman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:00amSorry, that’s not according to scripture. If you can “do” your way into heaven we are all doomed. You don’t earn your way into heaven otherwise Jesus giving his life for you was in vain. The book of James is not for you (but we will all gain from reading it). Try Romans through Philemon. THAT is for US. Jesus came to the Jews and through their rejection he came to US. THAT is prophecy. THAT is what scripture says and if you try to put yourself in the place of Israel anyone will be able to nail your hide to wall in any debate. Check out 2Tim 2:15. If we must “rightly divide” scripture then you must admit that scripture can be “wrongly” divided. It took me 30 years to come to believe that. Rightly dividing makes the King James scripture error free and easily debated. Check out a few sights on the web if you are not familiar.
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 1:05amWhat is this about James not being for us? And what about the gospels? WE are part of the kingdom of God Jesus described. One kind of salvation was not offered to the Jews and another to the Gentiles. There is only ONE salvation in Christ.
And KJVOnlyism is risible nonsense lacking historical support and based on hokey conspiracy theories.
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:20am” The fool has said in his heart, There is no God.” – Psalm 53: King James.
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:43amBell is not an atheist, dude. You must have misread the headline…
Report Post »hauschild
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:19amThere are slugs in every profession, it appears.
It just goes to show that not unlike teaching, we see how a lot of losers go for the security of guaranteed employment and a comfortable pension, which both pastors and teachers receive.
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:53amYou call him a “slug” because you disagree with him on one peripheral point of doctrine and then totally attack his character and motives for becoming a pastor. Nice.
Report Post »Run Silent
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:18amThe definition of religion – Humanities feeble attempt at defining Spiritualism!
Report Post »artman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:02amI define it as “man-made faith”.
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:40amThe Bible defines it as caring for widows and orphans.
Report Post »BlazingInSC
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:16amIf Bell accepted the written word of God, then he’d have a little more respect for the point that, according to scripture, accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and saviour is the only way to gain acceptance into heaven. Therefore, if you are a Christian, then yes, you understand that Ghandi is in hell. There is no luke warm ambiguity in the Gospel, it’s black and white. Of course, if you are Hindi, Mulsim, etc — your beliefs are different. Bell should not call himself a Christian evangelical if he teaches concepts that are contrary to what is in the Bible. As for me – it’s all about my own personal beliefs – and is not under the influence of others anyhow, so if Bell wants to teach this – I say go for it. To each his own.
Report Post »Bolo2811
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:15amRead the epistles of Paul to the thessalonians. Paul said (and i’m paraphrasing) :”that the end would not come untill there FIRST COME A FALLING AWAY. And MANY will DEPART from the faith.”
This in laymens terms means that WE can expect to see many heresies and apostates leaving the faith and misleading alot of people on their descent into “outer darkness”. Rob bell and Holtz are just the first two in what undoubtedly will be many more apostates to come.
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:31am@BOLO~~~ True! We are also seeing entire denominations falling away by their accepting (for example) homosexuality and more so by placing homosexuals in positions of leadership within the church itself when GOD is so clear in HIS WORD that this lifestyle is an abomination to HIM. That IS a reality check. Political correctness has become the “god” of this age, and it is a lie spawned in hell!
We will see more and more “falling” away because the road is narrow… We must pray for our family and for our friends and for our churches and their leaders as much as we are praying for AMERICA. May GOD have mercy on us and may HE keep us focused on HIM.
Report Post »artman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:07amIt also says that people will have a form of godliness but deny its power. That looks familiar today doesn’t it?
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:38amSo because two ministers disagree with you on a peripheral doctrinal issue, you take this to mean that they have apostasized from THE faith, embody the spirit of antichrist, and are actually a sign of the coming apocalypse… right. Someone thinks highly of his interpretions.
Report Post »steve5150
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:15amI am not particularly religious but as I understand it Christians have a set group of beliefs outlined in the Bible. If this fellow does not follow and believe those beliefs he does not belong leading that church. And if the members don,t want him leading their church they should throw him out. Don,t know why this should be a controversy.
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:31amThe controversy arises because developing a theology from the biblical texts can be difficult and inevitably leads to disagreements people who sincerely believe the Bible is a divinely authoritative collection of books. Different Christians have different interpretations and often different ideas about which doctrines take priority.
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:14amIF GOD loved us all and we were going to HEAVEN anyway, there would not have been the need for HIS ONLY SON JESUS THE CHRIST to be born of a virgin, lived (rebuked, reviled, abused, unloved, unwanted, etc., etc.), tired, crucified, died and buried for three days then arise…. Come on folks!
The IS a HEAVEN and there is a hell ~~~ for ALL ETERNITY.
JESUS CHRIST IS the only way there. Period.
These two young men and others like them have been deceived and are leading others away from GOD WHOSE ways sometimes seem hard to us. They are! HE is busy with us in this life seeing how much we really love HIM….many of us fall waaaaaaaaaaay short, but we are trying and HE continues to love and to encourage us. Let us be busy encouraging others as well, but in the truth of the BIBLE as it is, not as we wish it were….
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:16am“oops” tired should have been tried, although I bet HE was “tired”!
Report Post »“The” should have been “There”
Sorry I didn’t check spelling before I posted.
jacobstroubles
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:43amThey are far from the only 2 which have and are trying to mis lead others.
Report Post »They’re all about to have the next 7 years to enjoy the fruits of their decisions.
The Door Is About To Open
Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:25amYou’re mistaking universalism for pluralism. As a biblical universalist, I believe what FACILITATES salvation and reconciliation for all people is the cross of Christ. There is nothing inconsistent in that.
Report Post »jfreak13713
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:10amJesus talked about having a discerning spirit and having the ability test every spirit because not all will come from God. As humans we tend to react emotionally to ideas or thoughts that we don‘t have a full understanding of and I believe those that carry the view that there is No Hell or Everyone Is Saved are simply reacting emotionally to the idea of eternity that they don’t quite understand.
Mark Driscoll says “that the scandal isn’t that some will go to hell but that ANY get to go to Heaven”.
The Bible teaches that God has wrote himself in the hearts of every person and displays himself through everything he has created leaving no excuse for any to turn away from him. So the idea some will die and go to hell because they didn‘t even know who Jesus is doesn’t withstand truthful examination. Hell is real and many will go there but not because isn’t the loving God we have all been taught he is but because many will simply decide to reject him for a life of their own. Jesus said that we have the Law and if we want to follow the Law then we will be judged by the Law. So not knowing Jesus will not be what puts you in hell it will be breaking the Law of God “sin” and having no blood to cover your sin “Jesus”.
Rob Bell is a celebrity seeking attention and wealth by portraying himself as different or ENLIGHTNED but he’s really just another used care salesman claiming to be called of God.
Report Post »DCsKiller
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:04amTypo- or Subconscious Truth—-“used care salesman”
GGGGGGGGreat!
Report Post »dthej
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:09amThis Pastor was not calling God a monster, instead he was referring to some no believers idea of who God is based on frivolous teachings. Ask yourself this question, one of which I’m sure he is making, how could a God of love send his only son and endure such a horrific death to save as many who’ll beleive in him also send countless million to a place of eternal torment for not believing in him?
Report Post »How many of you with wayward children would find satisfaction knowing your child is in eternal torment while you enjoy the blissfulness of Heaven?
The bible clearly identifies Hades or the lake of fire and indeed God is a G
truthncharity
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:39amHere’s the flaw in your question. You’re leaving out the fact that God gave us, and we still have, free will. God is no divine dictator…He leaves it up to each man, individually, to decide whether to believe, follow, and obey. So if someone chooses to not believe, it wasn’t God who sent them to “hell”….it was their own unbelief. Hell and torment, wailing and gnashing of teeth are all found outside the light of God. That’s why in the story of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, the rich man could see where Lazarus was but he could not get there….I’d say that is torment and hell…you can see the life-giving light, but you can no longer get there because of your own choices.
Report Post »VISITORNUMBER3
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:48amIf what Rob Bell says is true, then why would God send is Son to be tortured and killed on our behalf?
Until people begin to understand that sin is a condition that separates us from God, we will keep having disagreements like this. The condition of sin results in the commission of sins, it’s not the other way around. And it started with the fall of man in the garden with Adam and Eve.
We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. And until that condition is remedied through the only means available, which is faith in the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ, fellowship with God is broken.
Hell is not some sort of “revenge” God has designed to “get even” with people, but a place for those who reject His love for them through their rejection of His son, Jesus Christ.
God is holy and no sin can exist in His holy presence. The only way to dispell that sinfulness is through the acceptance of and faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for us. No amount of good works, good deeds, good intentions, etc will get you into heaven.
In the same way no matter how much you attempt to refrain from sinning by using your own strength, you still will not get into heaven by using those means. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life.
Report Post »jmanuola
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:24pmyou’re assuming that it is God who is “sending” them there. We have a choice in the matter, you know.
Report Post »teachermitch32
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:11pmDTHEJ,
If I, as a good father (as good as I can be), have a wayward child I would be wise to love them (tough love) by being willing to pack there bags and place them on the front porch. My hope would be that they would eventually come to a place where they would desire to seek the help that they need. If I were not willing to have that as an option I would only be in a place of enablement, enabling them to continue on that wayward path. With that tough love option on the table THEY have some choices to make. Perhaps you can see the wisdom in that. Basically, this is the kind of truely loving Father we have in heaven. He is basically saying, “come on in…hurry…the door is closing….are you going to be with me or not…better hurry….I have made a way….all you have to do is accept it”.
Report Post »marshall1963
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:06amRob Bell in simple terms is a man-child with an appetite for attention and $$$$. With this book he has shown himself to be an intellectual midget and an emotional basket case. Rob Bell will make his money and be gone in a few years. Spend it while you can Rob, because you can’t take it with you.
Report Post »cm2ksa
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:06amJohn 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Many choose justify god’s word based on their own weakness. Salvation is not achieved through works. There is no act created by man to make us worthy of God’s Love and his acceptance into heaven. Just being a “good person” and following the “golden rule” will not get it done. This concept is very hard far many to grasp. Attempting to discredit the alternative is one way some have of coping with their inability to turn away from sin. Heaven may not be a crowded place. Many who do arrive may be surprised to find out who is “not there”. I also don‘t believe we will need to look for Lawrence O’Donnell there either.
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:15amI think you’re confusing universalism with pluralism. Christians universalists believe that ultimately all will be saved in and through Christ. Pluralists are the ones who deny that Jesus is necessary for salvation. Also, universalism has nothing to do with the idea of “meriting” one’s salvation — in fact, universalists tend to be huge proponents of divine grace; it would be quite difficult to hold to both universal reconciliation and the view that salvation can be merited.
Report Post »EndTmesMan
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:01amThe Full-Preterism view that all prophecies including the resurrection of the dead (Israel only) and the second coming of Christ have a similar view as this one of Rob Bell. Hell is actually Hades and Hades was the place for all the dead whether good or bad (Faithful or not faithful). Death and Hades have been cast into the Lake of Fire.
Report Post »GhostOfJefferson
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:22amI think you’re mixing in Greek mythology with Christian belief there.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:22amHades is the Greek term for the abode of the dead, called Sheol in Hebrew. It is the term Jesus used when talking about this place. It is thrown into the lake of fire, Rev. 20:14. The lake of fire is what we often now call Hell, making the English word for Hades apply also to Gehenna and Tartarus, the Greek words used in the NT for the place of destruction.
Report Post »mooseman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:31amIf that’s the case then why was the rich man in Hades and Abraham in heaven???
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:51amBecause it’s a parable. All I can say is that Hades is the word used. It is often synonymous with Death and the grave. When Jesus speaks of judgment and condemnation at the end he uses the word gehenna.
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 5:47pmIslesfordian,
Report Post »I know what you are trying to do here, but is is frustrating isn’t it?
It is hard for people to realize where the word hell comes from.
Jesus spoke of both hell (the grave) and death is to be thrown into the fire. This symbolizes the complete destruction of these two plaques upon mankind.
watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:36pmThe word “hell” is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place.
In Scripture there are three words translated as “hell”:
1.
Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word “sheol” is derived from a root-word meaning “to ask,” “demand;” hence insatiableness (Prov. 30:15,16). It is translated “grave” thirty-one times (Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29,31; 1 Sam. 2:6, etc.). The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule.
In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version [King James Version] this word is translated “hell,” the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are “the congregation of the dead” (Prov. 21:16). It is…
1.
the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps. 9:17; 31:17, etc.)
2.
of the good (Ps. 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.).
Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21,22), with bars (17:16). The dead “go down” to it (Num. 16:30,33; Ezek. 31:15,16,17).
2.
The Greek word Hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1 Pet. 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Matt. 16:18; Rev. 1:18), and it is downward (Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15).
The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise (Luke 23:43). They are also said to be in Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22).
3.
Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 16:24, etc.). (See HINNOM.)
Report Post »BruceB
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:00amGod sure loved the people of Sodom and Gannorah (too lazy to look up the correct spelling).Also the Hiities and a few other tribes.
Report Post »teammommy
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:01amIts Gomorrah. :)
Report Post »HippoNips
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:51amHe sent Angels to save them , their undoing was not leaving a city that was going to be destroyed (disbelief) despite the warning, all to keep at what they wanted to do, not what was good for them
Report Post »JRserious
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:05pmwrong. he sent angels to remove the only good person there, and by Jewish law also his family.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:59amLuke 16:23
Report Post »“the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments”
Hey pastor, if you don’t belive what the Bible tells you, why are you trying to pastor a church that does?
Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:10amThat “hell” is hades, which, with death, will be destroyed at the end.
Report Post »bhodge10
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:23amLuke 16:23 is a parable – definition of a parable is (in modern definitions) “a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle”. Luke 16:23 is a parable.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:27amBelieve what you want boys, you’ll have plenty of company.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:15amGonzo, you are aware that the “Hell” Bell and this pastor are talking about is not Hades, aren’t you? Jesus’ parable was about Hades, which will be cast into the lake of fire, Rev. 20:14.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:09pm@ ISLES…….not trying to be argumentative with you my friend because we have been here this is more for GONZOs benefit………..
There are two texts of Scripture that suggest to me that Hell involves everlasting punishment. Matthew 25:46 sums up the judgment on the “sheep and goats” with the words. “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The same word aionion (eternal) is used to describe the punishment of the wicked and the blessing of the righteous. Whatever we say about the duration of “eternal” life for believers must be said about “eternal” punishment for unbelievers. Since “life” for believers is everlasting (John 10:28), so must be the punishment for unbelievers.
In a second text, Revelation 20:10, John describes those in the “lake of fire” being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” The expression day and night is used in Revelation to express the concept of “forever.” The lake of fire is described in Revelation 19:20 as a place that “burns with brimstone.” In the saddest verse in the Bible, John declares that anyone whose name is not written in the book of life is “thrown into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15).
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:13pm@ GONZO here is more support for your view my friend…………..
The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Hebrews 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the “everlasting life,” the “eternal life” of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express…
1.
the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26)
2.
of Christ (Rev. 1:18)
3.
of the Holy Ghost (Hebrews 9:14)
4.
the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 1:6).
Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: “Fire that shall not be quenched” (Mark 9:45, 46), “fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17), “the worm that never dies,” the “bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1), “the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever” (Rev. 14:10, 11).
The idea that the “second death” (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 9:05amHello WATCH, Grace and peace to you.
I’m really not here to fight this battle over agian. Been there, done that. But I do like to make sure that the arguments don’t continue to get mucked up by the confusion over the identification of what the English word hell is signifying. The German Bibles do this too. Damn that Luther! ;-) Just kidding. But for anyone who continues to worship the KJV as infallible, the use of hell to translate the two different concepts of Hades and Gehenna must rank as a significant error.
I wish we could pick a standard term for what is commonly and mistakenly called hell. The Inferno would be my choice, as that is the standard in many Spanish and French translations. That way we could distinguish between Hades and the Inferno when discussing this. Otherwise the arguments become a hell of a mess.
Cheers
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 10:31am@ ISLES……Hey brother I completely agree with you on your point. I have nothing but goodwill toward you brother and totally agree was not being argumentative or antagonistic toward you just wanted to help GONZO with his thoughts on things. As always in essentials unity, in nonessentials charity, in all things love. God Bless you and always encouraging and insightful to read your posts !!!!!!
Report Post »jobe
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:57amAnother pastor deceived by liberal apostates, May he find his way back to the lord and the bible’s teachings.
Report Post »SlimnRanger
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:38amMay God have mercy on Bell,Holtz and anyother Christain that believs there is no hell,this is an attempt from Satan to mislead the people,trick them into believing they can live their life anyway they choose and still make it to Heaven,the Bible tell us that many will say Lord,Lord but few will enter the gates thereof (Heaven) so i am understanding that verse more and more now,every night i pray for this nation that God will pour his spirit out all over the land, and billions will come to know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour,It is true that God is not willing that any should perrish but all come to repentance, God does not send anyone to hell,we send ourselves there, People please pray and study your Bible and do not be decieved,Satan seeks those whom he may devour,belive in Jesus and live a Holy life acceptable unto him
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:04amConsidering there were many more universalists in the ancient church than there are in the modern church, I would have to contend that liberalism has nothing to do with it. Origen was the most prominent, being Christianity’s first systematic theologian, but there were plenty of other influential figures — for example, the Cappadocian father, Gregory of Nyssa, and the entire Alexandrian theological school through Jerome,
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:56amYeah, I find it more than incredible that the United Methodist Church would fire any pastor for questioning everlasting torment. They aren’t exactly what I would call a conservative church. They are a bit less liberal than The Episcopal Church in which I grew up and which only fires people who won’t accept homosexuality as a blessed gift.
I wonder if this guy has something else going on and is throwing out this smoke to rustle up support in his liberal church.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:16am“The United Methodist Church is an 11-million-strong global church that opens hearts, opens doors and opens minds through active engagement with our world.”
That’s what they say about themselves. The “open minds” is the money quote. That doesn’t sound like a church that would fire someone over questioning hell.
artman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:45amMost people prefer a “church” that will take them from the cradle to the grave and not bother them anytime in between.
Report Post »DianneYMe
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:47amBelieve it or not, there are a few United Methodists out here who are conservative :-) Unfortunately, even in a church with a conservative membership, we get liberal, progressive pastors thrust upon us. I am actually surprised the congregation was able to oust him – we rarely can get rid of bad apples we have had. If the UMC were to oust every pastor who agreed with Rob Bell, we wouldn’t have very many clergy left….(which would be a very good thing IMHO)
Report Post »Conservative New Yorker
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:55amCount my UMC church as being conservative. Love my pastor!
Report Post »Underground Man
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 12:00amThe United Methodist Church is not a liberal or progressive denomination. It tends to be moderately conservative, but diverse and very theologically flexible. I appreciate the idea of a “generous orthodoxy” as opposed to a fundamentalist “believe in everything I do or get tortured in hell forever”-ism, which seems to be so prevalent on these comments. As a biblical universalist myself, I find it odd that the UMC would dismiss him for this reason alone, but perhaps the complaints from hell-traditionalists in the congregation were enough to seal his fate with the denomination. Kind of sad, but I’m glad more Christian who believe in universal reconciliation are coming out of the closet, so to speak. I just hope they do so for solid scriptural and not primarily sentimental reasons.
Report Post »ratingsdown_onethird
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:55amSomeday, people will mature beyond the point where superstition is a part of their lives.
Report Post »jedi.kep
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:11amAnd someday, trolls will realize that it is okay to believe in something.
Report Post »Cryodawn
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:27amAh, But Trolls do belive in something…
Its all about “Me”, Its all about “I”, Its all about “No. 1″…
Report Post »ratingsdown_onethird
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:57amReal classy comments from the hocus pocus crowd, as usual. Science has it over religion hands down. Fact always wins over fiction. There’s no such thing as a virgin birth, in spite of the fact that most religions claim it as the way their “savior” came into being. It’s a myth, like the nonsense in the Koran, the Bible and all religious writings from thousands of years ago up to L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith. The human species needs to consider reality for a change. Deal with it.
Report Post »robin.kevin
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:01amand someday you will “mature” to the point that you realize that you need the Lord in your life. I pray that you find him so your life is not so empty, that you have to criticize those who have found him.
That goes for everyone on here that is criticizing or judging other peoples views. The Lord teaches us not to judge, but rather to teach. Teach your brothers and sisters to simply go to him, and through him they will find forgiveness and happiness. God bless.
Report Post »ratingsdown_onethird
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:12amI’m perfectly happy as I am and do not require forgiveness for anything. A decent, hard-working, generous, kind and well-balanced person has no need for belief in stories that were written thousands of years ago by people who had no understanding of science and why things are the way they are. Thanks all the same, but your delusions are not my burden.
Report Post »NYSTREETKID
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:05amYou are a fool. and a dangerous one at that.To play with politics is one thing. But if you cause one person to lost thier faith. You are a man or woman who could not the deal with God.Want to feel you are smart by leading the “way” to enlightingment of man.God is been able to out last leinn.Moa.Stalin. Hitler,Nero and He will most surely out last you. We dont pay for our sin here. To all of you out there on the blogs. you may feel and believe anything you wish. this is right and needed.but to lead one person to fall from faith is not. There is a law of return in all thing.
Report Post »ProgressiveLiberalMarine
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:25amNeeding faith is not a sign of maturity, respecting others beliefs is however.
Report Post »teachermitch32
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:30pmratingsdown_onethird,
If my “delusions” are not your burden, why so burdened by them then? Perhaps you should chill elsewhere instead of getting that life destroying adrenilin pumped through your body so much.
Report Post »ratingsdown_onethird
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:12pmSince the human species exited in its current form for at least over 100 thousand years, where was “god” for all that time? And why did “god” suddenly decide to reach out to mankind and make his presence known to a the primitive people of the Middle East rather than to the Chinese, who already had writing, literature and a sophiosticated culture? The answer is – There is no hell, no heaven, no spirits and demons and angels. There is no “GOD” either. Mankind created it all just like he created Zeus, Apollo and all the other so-called gods. The human species started out with many many gods, discarded them all and now is down to one. One more to go and we’ll finally have it right.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:00pm@ ROBIN……….Where do you get your idea we are not to judge from the word? It actually teaches the exact opposite. It is hypocrisy that is warned against. You better check the whole context of the verse. We should be patient, gentle, bearing with, full of grace, getting the log out of our eye so that we might take the speck out of our brothers eye. Of course we should not be critical understanding that once we all walked in darkness and there but for the grace of God go I. However, the idea you have espoused can be misunderstood when not clarified about judging..We make judgments all the time about what is right and wrong, good or bad, truth or lies. We also judge peoples actions all the time, stealing, lying, murder, manipulation,and on and on…….
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. We are not to be fault finders. We are to bear with one another. We are to be rich with grace for others. But to say we are not to judge is not what Jesus taught.
MATT 7
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
MATT 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
How can I obey Jesus here if I am not judging people?
or this in REV 2
2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
or Paul when he says this in 1 Co 5
Report Post »12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
florida123
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:55amSorry to tell you but Jesus speaks more times about Hell in the New Testement than he does Heaven. So believe what you will and i hope they are right but darn sure they are dead wrong…………..
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:12amWhere do you get this stat? How is it computed? Jesus mentions heaven far more times than he does hell.
Report Post »bhodge10
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:20amSo does he talk about hades, sheol, gehenna or tartaroo more than heaven. These are the 4 words that the English bible translates into the word hell. They each have a different meaning.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:09amSince sheol and hades are the same thing, Sheol being the Hebrew term for hades, The Bible only shows Jesus mentioning hades, and that he does 5 times. He never mentions tartarus but does mention gehenna 8 times. Jesus mentions heaven over 100 times.
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 5:29pmSo I sit here wanting to respond to all this………
but why should I even bother, I can give scriptures to read, I can quote the scripture, but it does no good.
Most people are so enthralled with there traditions and false stories about ‘hell” , their love of revenge and torture, that it does not matter what the Bible actually says about it. They accuse our loving Creator of wanting to torture people and it is disgusting when we think about it. It does not matter the number of times Jesus says the word sheol or hades or gehenna, what matters is WHAT DID HE MEAN BY USING THE WORDS?
Lets get basic in our understanding, Genesis 2:15-16 says “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”
In all of Jesus‘ statements he never disagreed with God’s statement that they would die. We all know what it is to die, we see it all the time. And by now we know what the original words sheol and hades means…the grave. The idea of a hell-fire is a pagan idea. Research it! Don’t take my word for it. Find out, make sure of what and why you believe a certain thing.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:25pm“The idea of a hell-fire is a pagan idea.”
Not so, Bearfoot. It is right there in Revelation chapter 20:
13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The question is what this hell-fire does. Does it burn forever or just long enough to destroy those thrown into it?
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:46pm@ ISLES……….You and I know where we stand on the time frame (ha ha). But your are exactly right. For someone who wants to espouse doing your research about the concept of a real hell. Perhaps they would want to follow their own advice and do their research about who and how Charles Russel started the JW in the late 1800s and all the false prophesies and flip flops in doctrine they have made. Like a wise man once told me trying to talk to JW was worse than trying to talk to a liberal because they loved their “special” knowledge more than any exegetical tool that is factual and based in truth. Nice sight if your interested on their background and history. You probably already know this though.
http://www.biblebelievers.net/Cults/JWs/kjcjws1.htm
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:48pmOr could the lake of hell fire be symbolic, just like death riding on a pale horse, in the same book of revelations. Or do you, ISLESFORDIAN, actually believe that death rides upon a pale horse? Don’t let logic escape you all of your life.
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:50pmJust go to the source, there is no need to listen to the misinformed.
http://www.watchtower.org
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:04pmIslesfordian: “The question is what this hell-fire does. Does it burn forever or just long enough to destroy those thrown into it?”
———–
Isles, The human spirit came from God. It is therefore eternal. That is why the Bible says we, unlike animals, were created in God’s image. The flesh can be destroyed, but not the spirit.
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matt. 25:46)
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:29pmI am sure that BEARs website does not fully discloses the history of false prophesies and flip flops in doctrine. Not to mention the committee that actually translated their New World Translation that has been altered to support their beliefs. The following is a list of the members and their credentials. I am pretty sure you wont find this on the website BEAR gave you. But see if BEAR can disprove one thing I will post.
Franz, Frederick
Probably the only person to actually translate. Franz was a liberal arts student at the University of Cincinnati:
21 semester hours of classical Greek, some Latin.
Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year.
Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and Aramaic
Gangas, George
No training in biblical languages. Gangas was a Turkish national who knew Modern Greek. Translated Watchtower publications into Modern Greek.
Henschel, Milton
No training in biblical languages.
Klein, Karl
No training in biblical languages.
Knorr, Nathan
No training in biblical languages
Schroeder, Albert
Report Post »No training in biblical languages. Schroeder majored in mechanical engineering for three years before dropping out.
YellowFin
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 12:51amMy goodness, Watchtheotherhand is having a nervous breakdown over his hatred of Bearfoot and his comments. I don’t think you are very nice, kind of a bully. You know what happens to bullies don’t you? Matthew 24:9
Luke 11:35 tells us the light we think is in us is actually darkness.
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 1:48amWatchTheOtherHand likes to project an authoritative voice here on the Blaze. I am afraid many buy into his methods, feeling that he must know what he is talking about. After all, he quotes scripture to fill half of the page and challenges those who oppose him with a large number of questions that he knows is not possible to respond to in a logical way. I have to agree, he is a bully, forcing his opinion and insulting and condemning those who disagree with his superior intellect.
Report Post »His love of torture and ascribing the same to our God of love is not right. He is actually blaspheming God.
This comment is not necessarily for watchtheotherhand’s benefit but for all the readers here who read his convoluted words. Study the Bible without pre-conceived ideas. Let the Bible speak for itself. It takes real effort but the Truth will set you free from false teachings and traditions of men.
foobear
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 5:57am@Bearfoot, If you actually take the Jehovah’s Witnesses seriously, you have a lot more to worry about than what some random internet denizen thinks about it.
They get so many things wrong with theology, it’s not even funny.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 10:20am@ BLACKTOOTH and YELLOWFIN………..You must be JWs or at least sympathizers……your attacks are just like what I have dealt with many times on here although making those comments and not stating your position as a JW is quite disingenuous. I have done nothing that Jesus or the apostles have done when they debated false teachings vigorously. I cannot sit by and let false teachings be disseminated on a forum like this without challenge. Again, it is the same tired old tactic of your mean your a bully but as of yet not one time NOT ONE TIME have any of you guys been able to address the facts or what I have posted. I will continue to wait and endure your personal attacks. People know when someone is dodging facts and trying to demonize their opposition that they cannot answer. I have no intelligence of my own in these matters simply the word of God divided rightly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 10:24am@ YELLOWFIN……Did Jesus hate the Pharisees when he opposed their false teaching? Or was he loving them by trying to point out their error? I have no hate in my my heart for anyone. But I will not allow false teaching to be given free reign so as to influence someone in error and lead them down the broad road, it is the most loving thing I can do.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 10:51am@ BLACKTOOTH……………2nd time a JW has called me a blasphemer……….Jesus was called a blasphemer by those whose false teaching He opposed so I guess that puts me in good company…..
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 11:16am“The human spirit came from God. It is therefore eternal.”
No, Kryptonite. That does not follow. If it was eternal how could we as sinners ever be described as spiritually dead?
Report Post »Blacktooth
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 5:16pmA blasphemer in this case is one who misrepresents the True God, ascribing to God what he never intended, or stating a action by God that is not true. By your insistence that the God of the Bible is a tormentor of persons in a hellfire when He actually told us what happens to us when we die, and we do not experience any consciousness or any kind of pain, then you are not telling the truth, but are a blasphemer against the true God’s character, a God of love.
Ezekiel 18:4 says “The soul that is sinning – it itself will die.”
And meditate on Ecclesiastes 9:4;5-10 For as respects whoever is joined to all the living there exists confidence, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with rejoicing and drink your wine with a good heart, because already the [true] God has found pleasure in your works. 8 On every occasion let your garments prove to be white, and let oil not be lacking upon your head. 9 See life with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life that He has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity, for that is your portion in life and in your hard work with which you are working hard under the sun. 10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.
Yet you keep saying people will be tormented by God’s hand in a hellfire. And this is because of your elementary understanding of the word “hell”. What a pity for you and all who accept your words.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 9:08pmIslesfordian: No, Kryptonite. That does not follow. If it was eternal how could we as sinners ever be described as spiritually dead?
———
Isles, because spiritual death is separation from God, not to be confused with physical death, which returns our mortal bodies to the dust. Spiritual death does not mean that the spirit ceases to be. Satan is also spiritually dead, even though he is currently allowed to have some communication (not communion) with God. Satan was cast from heaven, where all HOLY spirits, both human and angelic, have communion with God.
When God said, “for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die,” (Gen. 2:17) that is exactly what happened. They sinned and their spirit was separated from God. (Physical death was an aftereffect.). When we are born again, it is the breath of the Spirit to our spirit (as with Adam and Eve), bringing us back to a state of fellowship with God. (Our bodies die because sin is also carried in the body and redemption of the body is yet to come for most of humanity.) Being born again is an experience that cannot be understood by the natural mind, and unless you experience it personally, you remain “dead in your sins,” (spiritually dead) no matter how religious you are. Try explaining to a nonbeliever that you can actually have communion with God, and they will call you crazy, yet that is what separates the saved from the unsaved: a live and intimate relationship with the triune God.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 10:26pm@ BLACKTOOTH…………..I find it astounding that you call my understanding elementary after a post that demonstrates your biblical illiteracy of the whole counsel of God. You are the one misrepresenting what Christ taught. I have a question for you. Is the “lake of fire” the same original meaning and word as the Hebrew Sheol??? Of course I know your answer so then that leads me to this question. Is the same word originally used to describe eternal life and the eternal nature of God that also describes the eternal nature of the inferno (Hint: if it is you cannot have it mean one thing in one place and have it mean another thing in another place)? Here is a little info. for you to chew on.
There are two texts of Scripture that suggest to me that Hell involves everlasting punishment. Matthew 25:46 sums up the judgment on the “sheep and goats” with the words. “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The same word aionion (eternal) is used to describe the punishment of the wicked and the blessing of the righteous. Whatever we say about the duration of “eternal” life for believers must be said about “eternal” punishment for unbelievers. Since “life” for believers is everlasting (John 10:28), so must be the punishment for unbelievers.
In a second text, Revelation 20:10, John describes those in the “lake of fire” being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” The expression day and night is used in Revelation to express the concept of “forever.” The lake of fire is described in Revelation 19:20 as a place that “burns with brimstone.” In the saddest verse in the Bible, John declares that anyone whose name is not written in the book of life is “thrown into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15).
The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Hebrews 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the “everlasting life,” the “eternal life” of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express…
the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26)
of Christ (Rev. 1:18)
of the Holy Ghost (Hebrews 9:14)
the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 1:6).
Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: “Fire that shall not be quenched” (Mark 9:45, 46), “fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17), “the worm that never dies,” the “bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1), “the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever” (Rev. 14:10, 11).
The idea that the “second death” (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever.
In Scripture there are three words translated as “hell”:
Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word “Sheol” is derived from a root-word meaning “to ask,” “demand;” hence insatiableness (Prov. 30:15,16). It is translated “grave” thirty-one times (Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29,31; 1 Sam. 2:6, etc.). The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule.
In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version [King James Version] this word is translated “hell,” the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of Sheol are “the congregation of the dead” (Prov. 21:16). It is…
the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps. 9:17; 31:17, etc.)
of the good (Ps. 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.).
Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21,22), with bars (17:16). The dead “go down” to it (Num. 16:30,33; Ezek. 31:15,16,17).
The Greek word Hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as Sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1 Pet. 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Matt. 16:18; Rev. 1:18), and it is downward (Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15).
The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of Hades called paradise (Luke 23:43). They are also said to be in Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22).
3.
Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 16:24, etc.). (See HINNOM.)
BTW it is not what I say but what God Has said through His word and through His son. Your understanding isn’t even elementary but just plain wrong and dangerous !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Still waiting on anyone to disprove every FACT I have posted. Including in this post.
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 8:35am“Isles, because spiritual death is separation from God, not to be confused with physical death”
Well, of course spiritual death is not the SAME as physical death, but it must be SIMILAR. Else why would God use death as a term for what happens when we are separated from God? To die physically is to have no more physical sensation. It is to be silent. In a word, dead. Waht then would spiritual death be but also the lack of spiritual sensation? What then is being sensed, and how? The body is dead, so it cannot sense anything? The spirit is dead, so it must be senseless like the body. What is there that is sensing things and what could it sense?
A further theological problem to your idea that the spirit is eternal because it comes from God. This presumes that the spirit is indestructable, even by God. Are you implying that there is something outside of God that he cannot destroy? That is dangerously close to the heresy of dualism, if it isn’t there already. Or perhaps you are saying that the human spirit is part of God, so that God could not destroy it without destroying himself. But if that is the case you have then abolished the distinction between Creator and creature fundamental to all monotheistic faiths.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on March 27, 2011 at 12:31pm==> “Well, of course spiritual death is not the SAME as physical death, but it must be SIMILAR. Else why would God use death as a term for what happens when we are separated from God? To die physically is to have no more physical sensation. It is to be silent. In a word, dead. Waht then would spiritual death be but also the lack of spiritual sensation?”
Which came first, spiritual death or physical death? If you want to draw an analogy between the two, spiritual death has to be your frame of reference, not the other way around.
Sheesh, Isles, you speak hypothetically, as if you never experienced spiritual death. Adam and Eve lost that “spiritual sensation” when they sinned. So unless Jesus’ Spirit quickens our spirit, it is indeed dead as a doornail. The state of the human spirit does not change when we die. The only thing that changes is that, having lost our mortal body which allowed us to function in the physical world, we must enter the spirit realm, where our reality will be either heaven or hell.
==> “A further theological problem to your idea that the spirit is eternal because it comes from God. This presumes that the spirit is indestructable, even by God. Are you implying that there is something outside of God that he cannot destroy? That is dangerously close to the heresy of dualism, if it isn’t there already. Or perhaps you are saying that the human spirit is part of God, so that God could not destroy it without destroying himself.”
No, I do not believe the human spirit is divine. The human spirit only resembles/has the likeness of God in that it lives forever, but it was created. However, it is the part of our nature that joins us with God, unlike the flesh which returns to the earth and will never inherit the kingdom of God.
==> “Are you implying that there is something outside of God that he cannot destroy?”
“Cannot” is a tricky word when applied to God. We know there are some things God cannot do (such as lie), because they are contrary to his nature. We also know that God can willingly limit Himself. For example, Jesus can physically be in only one place at a time now that He has a body (although his Spirit is still omnipresent). Similarly, the Word makes clear that God chose to let all spirits live eternally. Even after man sinned, rather than annihilate the entire race, He chose to make a way. Satan is the one who steals, kills and destroys, not God.
Report Post »Psychosis
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:52aminteresting the amount of time “ religious leaders” or pastors are getting in the news recently……….its like there is a concerted effort from media to make a lot of noise pertaining to religion recently
i wonder why…………………………..
Report Post »fishman111
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:50ambeing from gr. area, makes you wonder what bells motives are, i doubt wheter the flock sees it that way, he should read bohenhoffer, take a hint, this man gave his life for christ, is it all about shock and awe, or money
Report Post »quarter horseman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:21amFrom the same area fishman, I think the same thing, I have known people who have gone to that church and if Mr.Bell is like them, well shock and awe, or money is all hes about. The main reasons they went there,#1 you could dress anyway you wanted, #2 they have cool music. Not to mention how they behave when their out of church, sex, drugs alcohol is no big deal because they can just go to their local feal good church and be forgiven.
Sorry my spelling sucks so I have been told and corrected. O well
Report Post »Marylou7
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:44amQuarter Horseman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:21am
____
Your spelling may stink on ice but your message is correct. But there have been so-called churches like Bell’s forever. Many people constantly search for ways to excuse their bad behavior. These people need our prayers that God will open their eyes to His Truth.
Report Post »P C BE DAMNED
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:17amQuarterhorseman
Mark Twain once said he didn’t give a damn for a man who could only spell a word one way.
Report Post »NancyBee
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:32amQuarterHorse……I agree…I think Bell has sold his soul………….and Fishman ….I am ordering Bohen hopper’s book this week……Did I spell that right?
Report Post »IntheKnowOG
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:02amHis church is come as you are and leave as you came. No message except for, do what ever you do when you do it. I’ll bet his expensive car has a “Life is Good” sticker on it.
Report Post »audiemurphy
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:19amhell and damnation are the same. let’s be real here there is one Bible and in North America there are 10,000 Christian denominations most have different and varying beliefs and understanding of the scriptures the old and new testaments. I can tell u I surely don’t believe in an unmerciful unloving god who gives life and then at the end of mortal existence consigns us to a state of endless torment in a pit of fire. We cannot fully comprehend the nature of the creator while here in mortality what he does what he is like and what he feels for his children here experiencing mortality . We do gain insight by reading and pondering the scriptures but interpretation leads to different and varying conclusions on the matter . though if you take the word damnation or phrase damned to hell and think of what a dam does :it holds back water it only stands to reason that if a soul is damned he or she is held back from something better. one of the saviours last words on the cross was forgiving the unbelievers who crucified him and asking his father to do the same. Pretty unmerciful to punish some one for not knowing what they do(ignorance). In the new testament in Corinthians it is made mention that the are several or varying degrees of exaltation or heaven depending on what you have done in mortality some will receive a greater reward while some will be held back from receiving those
Report Post »BeerSnob
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:58amWith places like HopCat and the Founders Brewery in downtown GR, it would be hard not to stray from the Church – not to mention a good AHL Hockey team…. but I digress :)
Report Post »ISeeDanger.com
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:50amWow, watch this topic today.
Right now I think more people are worried about “hell” coming to the US in the form of the economy.
http://www.ISeeDanger.com
Report Post »ItsallaboutJesus
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:06amThank you for the link. I will read it.
Report Post »sleazyhippo
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:27amHey, itsAllAboutJesus, while you are in there remember this is also a convenient link for purchasing precious metals with rock bottom commissions!
Report Post »AnAppealToGod
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 6:08pm*
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Sorry, Hell is real. You can’t use clift notes to pass this test. You can’t cheat off your neighbors answers to pass either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8no0pzgRgm4
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jedi.kep
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:49amMonster God? That just proves how much you don’t know the Scripture and you deserve to be fired.
Report Post »Bullwinkle
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:56amExactly. And way to go Rob, your unbelief is like an infection.
Report Post »ratingsdown_onethird
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:56amReligion is the real monster.
Gold Coin & Economic News
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:12amWe can’t make God into our own being. He is who He is, it’s not for us to decide whether or not there is a hell. The Bible says there is and if you want to call yourself a Christian you have to deal with that fact.
Sorry, Holtz, you can’t change the truth of the Bible no matter how much you may want to.
Report Post »Cryodawn
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:14amI find that 99% of people don’t even read the book, and half of the 1% that does takes excerpts from it like it’s a bunch of haiku’s. Somewhere during all that, I could of sworn there was a overlaying story that informed the reader that “We” are the monsters, and if “We” can taper our “Monster” like behavior then he “May” show favor of you. I’m just saying…
Report Post »Islesfordian
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:19amDo you really think he was fired by the UNITED METHODIST CHURCH over this? Unlikely.
Report Post »NickDeringer
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:26amRob Bell is a progressive theologian who is perverting the message of Jesus Christ.
If there‘s no Hell there’s no need for the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Something Satan has been try to convince people of for centuries.
Hitler and Mother Teresa are in the same place for all eternity? Really??
kryptonite
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:36amHoltz is a fool. First he spends years trying to decide whether or not to believe in Jesus. Now he’ll spend eternity wondering why he made the wrong choice.
Report Post »Jim
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:36amWe all tend to interpret scriptures in a manner to conform to our beliefs. The scriptures are full of statements affirming that all will be saved. Think about this statement: If God does not save everyone, then either He can‘t or He won’t. If he can‘t then He is not omnipotent and if He won’t, then the monster label seems appropriate.
artman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:41amScripture tells us there is a hell. It also tells us God is just. So will Hitler and my unsaved, good-hearted neighbor be serving the same punishment? Probably not. But I think I’ll just let God sort it all out.
Report Post »bullcrapbuster
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:42amTake all of the people who never lie,cheat or steal,all the faithful wives and husbands,all those that truly try to live by christs teachings by sharing with those less fortunate,and being living examples of love and kindness and peace. Take them all off the earth and leave only liars,theives,murderers,rapists, etc and you have your hell. Hell will be hell because of the people who live there. Where else are they going to live? they create hell wherever they go. It is very simple. It is about choices people. Repent (change) daily and strive to be more Christ like every day by making the right choices thereby accepting his sacrafice for our sins or we can suffer for our own sins by living with like minded people in hell. When we have suffered enough we can accept Christ and be reedeemed or we can curse God and be cast out of his presence forever.
Report Post »robin.kevin
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:45amWell I have not read “Love Wins” but the idea of being cast into hell for your sins if you don’t live “perfect” is not really a new idea. The thought on this is the Lord loves all his children. If you are a parent let me ask you, if they do something bad do you still love them? Of course you do. So the idea is unless one completely turns away from the Lord they will not be cast into hell for ever, but rather be forgiven for there sins if they accept forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ. Forgiveness is there for anyone who accepts it no matter how bad of things they had done. However they have to accept it. I could explain more, but this would quickly become a book…
Report Post »artman
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:49amHey Jim,
Report Post »It’s all about free will. Love is not love unless one has a choice. What would it mean to you if someone loved you but did not have a choice in the matter. Nothing. Same with God. He will save you unconditionally but it is YOU that has to make the choice or it is meaningless. No need for any type of faith. No need for Jesus Christ. Not need for anything.
MinorityRightsAdvocate
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:52amThe best deception Satan ever concocted was to fool people into thinking he does not exist, and this man took it hook line and sinker!
http://minorityrightsadvocate.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/mankind-will-never-%e2%80%9close%e2%80%9d-religion-and-faith-%e2%80%93-it-is-programmed-into-our-very-existence-so-then-why-are-some-saying-it-may-become-extinct-in-9-countries/
Report Post »A1955Rosie
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:57amChurch/catholic school teaches a “fire & brimstone” God… I’ve read the article and would agree to a certain extent of “Why would God create us knowing who we are and then punish us?” I think there‘s more and I don’t believe God is going to “punish” us the way it’s interpreted. More like we live our own hell when we stray from the golden rule as a natural consequence.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:08amJim writes:
“We all tend to interpret scriptures in a manner to conform to our beliefs. The scriptures are full of statements affirming that all will be saved. Think about this statement: If God does not save everyone, then either He can‘t or He won’t. If he can‘t then He is not omnipotent and if He won’t, then the monster label seems appropriate.”
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Jim, He HAS saved everyone!!! He has thrown us ALL a lifeline named Jesus Christ. But it is up to YOU to grab that lifeline. That is the only way.
What about those who have never heard about Christ? I will be honest Jim, I do not know…Scripture plainly tells us they are doomed. I believe the Word of God. Maybe because God knows they would not have chosen Him anyway they were put in this spot. But that certainly does not satisfy when you think of a missionary team that goes into a people that has never heard the gospel and they end up converting 75% of the tribe. It begs the question of what if a missionary team had gone in a generation earlier? Surely SOMEONE would have been saved? Maybe, maybe not…I have no answer. But I do know that God’s Word is truth and that He has thrown me, and you, a lifeline. Grab it Jim. The unevangelized are not your problem, and neither is the fairness or justness of God. You know that without Christ you drown, that is all that matters. When you stand before Christ one day in the very near future the weight of your rejection of Him is on YOUR shoulders, not His.
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Cryodawn:
I find that 99% of people don’t even read the book, and half of the 1% that does takes excerpts from it like it’s a bunch of haiku’s.
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I strongly disagree with the rest of your post, salvation is by faith alone. All you have to do is accept Christ, HE will change your sinful nature.
But THIS statement is so true and is the root of all our problems. So many Christians do not read the Bible! This is why you have all these strange theologies popping up, very few people can take the entire Christian Bible in context, both OT and NT, because very few have actually READ it! I am doing a study on Zechariah right now, and it is such a wonderful, prophetic book that points right at Jesus Christ is so many passages…How many Christians ever really get past the 4 Gospels, Acts, and Revelation? How many Christians ever even crack open the OT other than Genesis and maybe Exodus and Joshua? The minor prophets add so much to the understanding of the NT…
People do not have time…They go to church on Sunday and listen to whatever their preacher feeds them…Then it is back to the real world…
One thing about Bell…The article is correct in that his beliefs are hard to pin down. Know why? Because he knows good and well that belief that there is no hell is wrong! He is well aware of his error!
Report Post »Taquoshi
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:08amMr. Holz,
Unless I am very much mistaken, when you were ordained to the ministry, you took some vows, right? And when you were called to the pulpit, it was based on the theological premises you held at the time, right? Apparently, you no longer hold those beliefs, but your former church does. There are plenty of other jobs to chose from. Go forth and find yourself another job.
And to the congregation – God bless you richly for standing up for Biblical truth.
Report Post »indy1
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:14amThe real story is that there is a Methodist Church that still believes in the Bible instead of mulching your neighbors lawn.
Report Post »boogeo
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:14amKing James gave us this bible,leave it alone. He was a God fearing man.
Report Post »DTOM_Jericho
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:23am@Jedi
It actually proves how little you understand how the Hebrew word for ‘grave’(sheol) was changed to the Greek word for ‘hell’(hades) for a Paganized, Romanized, Latinized TRASLATION of Scripture. The same version that 98% of Christians believe today. Yet, there is no verse that talks of an immortal soul, there is no verse that talks of an eternal torment. Verses like John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 clearly, CLEARLY spell out that the gift is eternal life and the “punishment” is death. (i.e., letting you die. Not eternal torture with a guy in red tights and a pitch fork. How Dantesque.)
To be clear, there is a difference between an immortal soul (pagan teaching) and eternal life. That‘s why lost loved ones are not ’looking down on you’ right now. Sheesh, imagine what hell (pun intended) that would be, to watch you suffering and be able to do nothing about it. That’s what Yeshua (“jesus”) raised Lazarus “from the dead” or as Messiah put it, “sleeping”. As Martha pleaded with Messiah to raise him she states, “I know he will rise ON THE LAST DAY’. You do not die and go to Heaven or hell… you die and wait for The Ressurection. (Please see John 5:28)
Yes you can find verses that mistranslated and mis-punctuated (there is no punctation in the original writing, or verse numbers, chapters, book titles, OT title, NT title) SEEM to fit your view. This creates, if you believe this interpretation, anachronisms and contradictions which YOU have to resolve, not me.
“I tell you today you will be with me in paradise”. This statement reads correctly WITHOUT punctuation. Adding a comma after the word “you” will make it sound like Yeshua(“jesus”) is telling the thief on the cross that they will be in paradise today. In fact He is saying that TODAY I am telling you this. They did not speak like King James, us or Constanine trying to merge his pagan and christian empire. I do not have to prove why the comma should not be after the ‘you’. It was never there. You have to prove why it was correct to put it in there, in the first place. Or believe in these things, it just makes it easier for idiots to rip your faith by using contradiction in your “scriptures”. That’s your choice.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:26amRob Bell………….
“Gandhi’s in hell? He is? And someone knows this for sure?” Bell asks in the video.
In the book, Bell criticizes the belief that a select number of Christians will spend eternity in the bliss of heaven while everyone else is tormented forever in hell.
Jesus Christ………..
Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Luke 13
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
Report Post »sleazyhippo
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:28am…And in THIS tank; ….You will observe a school of the exotic piranha as it eats its young!….
Report Post »gelina44
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:29amJim- It seems you have forgotten an option maybe its not that God cant or wont save everyone maybe its that he has given us all the ability to choose, and why would he bring someone into an eternity of prasing him who does not want to be there. Salvation is a choice we all have, it doesnt just happen.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:30amBeen down the “hell” road before with all the JWs. Just be ware when thy give their reasoning where they are coming from. I have posted before the errors in their exegesis several times and will not do so again.
Report Post »StonyBurk
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:37amI give this Pastor no credit for the sympathy card, Every Pastor serves the Congregation–and in many
Report Post »cases the hierarchy of the church -i.e. denominational convention or organization. I seem to recall
a Barna survey some time ago where quite a number of Pastors or Priests seem to hold personal
views contrary to what Scripture declares as true.I am not a Methodist but do believe in discipline.
And if the Pastor was teaching/Preaching strange doctrine he deserved to be fired.
NYSTREETKID
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:56amIf all go to heaven why didi chirst need to die for our sins?, why was there a fall of adam?, ehy is there a holy spirt to guides us through life. why would God spend one second of care. If the is no Hell, then Why would there be a heaven. God/Nature/Science teachs the is a cause and effect in all things.This is a way to break down faith even more. The why worry church becomes the who cares church. Note: If true It was a trouble shame that a great, caring, and loving had to die a true painful death on a Cross for fools like us for nothing.We should feel the shame we all earned
Report Post »FormerLib
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:57amAnd the mainstream denominations wonder why they’re hemorrhaging members and bible-teaching evangelical churches are growing like crazy. People are starving for the truth of thew word. When any church leader tries to soft peddle the message to avoid offending people, they end up killing the message, and cutting off the life it brings.
Yes, the consequences of sin are harsh. Unredeemed sin carries the harshest punishment of all. But the god news is, it’s our choice, because we have a way out, provided by none other than the ‘monster God’ Himself. But anyone who thinks Christ died a horrible, agonizing death on the cross just to provide us with another option we can choose later after we’ve tried all the more appealing ways ourselves, they’re fooling themselves.
If people think the bible and those teaching it are judgmental, they’re really going to hate meeting God. God does not embrace moral relativism. He’s very black and white.
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:01amThe shame of this story is a young ill taught pastor from some liberal divinity school having no convictions of scripture, except those who fit his personal beliefs, bites the dust.
I can understand his position, some people cannot reconcile the thought of a “loving and just God” as punishing his creation. Well that‘s why he’s just.
We take hell and study it and yes some will burn, yet there are levels of torment and the creation of hell was and remains as punishment to the angels who rebelled with Lucifer. Let’s examine human nature.
We naturally seek some degree of spiritual fulfillment, that’s why we find so many religions. This is a God given need and it must be found. Some find it in success though quite fleeting, some in religion yet empty in substance some in drugs or sex again a waste of ones self. And some find it in their creator God, and find to be satisfied knowing the truth of the Gospel.
I personally am convinced that Jesus (Yeshua) paid for our sins, in his death and resurrection and ascension into heaven. It remains a free gift to those who believe, regardless of who they are and remain to be while still in the flesh.
Yet the concept of torment or hell is not always a lake of fire, it is the eternal separation from ones creator, it’s a void and emptiness for ever and ever amen. Yet these learned people want to claim their wisdom in questioning God, the truth is if Gandhi heard the gospel and rejected it, he rejected the blood sacrifice that God provided to all man kind and will be judged according to God’s judgment and if people have a problem with this then you are not Christians. Remember “no one comes to the Father but through the Son”.
One last thing I’m tired of people asking this question after the death of a child or mass deaths due to a earthquake or some other natural disaster. Every time this question is asked of a pastor or priest they have the same lame response “it‘s God’s will“ or ”there must be a purpose”. Let me be clear with my response: it‘s not God’s will, he gave Satan dominion over his creation “earth” at the fall of man and Satan rules this world not God. This is why the serpent was able to temp Christ and offer him the world during his 40 day fast. This is why it is know as “present evil world” being ruled by the “prince of the power of the air” so please stop the ignorance.
This is why I say we can’t pick and choose what we believe when it comes to scripture, yet one can be saved and not believe in hell, that‘s why it’s by grace your saved it remains a free gift. For another time.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:15amWatchtheotherhand,
Agreed! You can only post the plain Scripture proving them wrong so many times…They continue to ignore the plain teaching of the Bible. Er…Lake of Fire…Duh…Oh, I forgot…That is not “literal.” Then is the Great White Throne judgment literal? Is the resurrection of Christ literal? Man gets to decide what is literal in the Bible and what is not? Hmmm…..I have my doubts THAT is going to turn out well…The Bible makes clear when something is figurative or symbolic, and the Lake of Fire is not! There is too much other Scripture that supports it.
If not choosing Christ simply meant death then the non-believer should choose that option! Heaven is continual worship of God 24/7. No parties, no orgies, no great buffet tables in the sky…Just pure worship. Not something your average nonbeliever is going to be interested in.
If everyone goes to heaven then why Christ? Why Adam and Eve? Why the whole charade? Why didn’t God just cut to the chase and create us and put us in heaven, why are we even here?
Why do so many well meaning people have so much trouble with the Word of God? Because they do not READ it!!! They listen to a preacher and think that because the man is a preacher he must know all these things. I have learned to celebrate theological differences. I believe God celebrates these differences. But we must draw the line at error and heresy. We all will live forever, in one of two places. Eternal wrath means it is continual torment. The message is clear, it does not get any clearer. People tend to complicate things by nature. We like to add our own influence to everything. Understanding Scripture properly is not hard, but it does take diligence and work. I can make the Bible say anything i wish, and I can Scripturally support even the most abominational heresy. There is no trick to that! The trick is to study God’s Word to obtain a clear and complete understanding of the gospel message. I will never be right about everything, but there are central tenants that can only be correctly interpreted in one way. Bell knows this, that is why he is not forthcoming when cornered on the question of universalism. He knows this is a false doctrine!
Report Post »TexasCommonSense
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:16amIt’s not the “Monster God” who damns you to hell; you do that yourself with your own actions.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:20amhaec credam a deo pio, a deo justo, a deo scito? cruciatus in crucem!
How can we believe in a just God, if the same God created Satan? How can we beleive in GOd’s mercy after watching the torment of Job? The question of Ghandi in hell is an important one, the argument for born agains, is that a mass murder who has found God a minute before his death will recieve passage into heaven, while a man of another faith, who lived his life for the benefit of others, to raise other up. A man who would be sainted, but for his religion, this man is doomed to hell.
Satan is a construct of early man to avoid the question of why does a just God allow pain and suffering in the world and evil to win. Satan deflects blame away from God.
Report Post »thegrassroots
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:28amBell and Holtz are so incredibly deluded. Reading this makes me wonder if they’ve ever read the Bible. Eternal decisions need to be made this side of eternity. They should stop, step back, do the research, read the Bible, and make sure they’ve got it right before they continue. Not smart to make eternal decisions based on false teachings and false thinkings. As long as they’ve got breath in their bodies, it’s not too late to choose to come down on the side of Truth. No breath means their eternal decision is in eternal concrete – No Do Overs! Now’s the time to get it right!
Report Post »LeaderShip
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:33amIf you do not believe in the “manual” or book you teach and preach from get out of the business. The Methodist church obviously thought that was the correct action. Gods word is Holy and not up for lets say pick what you want options, believe it or leave it alone, God said (paraphrased) if you add to the Book or take from it the plagues written in it be upon you.
Report Post »IntheKnowOG
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:38am@Jim
The Creator of all things is a monster because He uses faith as a qualifier for inclusion. He gave us free will in order to allow us to to truly experience love. That is the “Sword of Damocles” we as humans walk in order avoid the blind allegiance the angels are compelled with. The choice is ours; that is not something a despotic monster would allow.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:41amEncinom:
How can we believe in a just God, if the same God created Satan? How can we beleive in GOd’s mercy after watching the torment of Job? The question of Ghandi in hell is an important one, the argument for born agains, is that a mass murder who has found God a minute before his death will recieve passage into heaven, while a man of another faith, who lived his life for the benefit of others, to raise other up. A man who would be sainted, but for his religion, this man is doomed to hell.
Satan is a construct of early man to avoid the question of why does a just God allow pain and suffering in the world and evil to win. Satan deflects blame away from God.
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Really?
That would mean the entire Bible is wrong! So the Bible is just a book made up by man to try and explain God? Surely it is not divinely inspired because anything “God breathed” could not contain lies! So the Bible is not true.
Boy, I would sure hate to be you!!!
What can you believe? Is Jesus Christ real? The resurrection? If man created Satan/Lucifer, then why not the Christ? Do you actually believe in God? Why?
Sorry Encinom, you have no truth…And it shows in all your posts. Yeah, I would hate to be you!
The answer to your “philosophical” question is Jesus died for ALL sin. This includes everything from white lies to mass murder. So in your scenario Gandhi is indeed in hell and had Hitler accepted Christ the moment before he put a bullet in his brain he would indeed be in heaven. How can a “just” God do this? Who are YOU to define “just?” Did God not tell Joshua to kill every Canaanite man, woman, and child? Is this “just?” The reason was simple, and the fact that the Israelites failed to obey proved to be their downfall. We are all God’s creation to do with as He pleases. We cannot say what is just in His eyes!
You are wrong my good troll, and I really hope that you discover that one day. It will change your life.
Report Post »HippoNips
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:47amHe is asking the question to prove a point. There IS no mystical place called hell where people are tormented Hell was an actual place outside the ancient cities on earth were the bodies of the people were burned. They burned , and since they knew no God to grant them eternal life, they are NO MORE , It’s not burned over and over foreever.
Report Post »VISITORNUMBER3
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:59amHoltz and Bell are wrong but we still have to love them, folks…
1 John 4:20
Report Post »20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love
his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
Kirsten
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:01amAh, the cunning deceptor called satan?? This is proof that satan, the devil, evil exsisted. If any of us could study human behavior for 10,000 years or so would we not be able to mold anyone to our whim? I may even be able to learn quantum physics in 10,000 years. That is how long satan has been studying us, and if you think for an instant that satan is not also using the Word of God against us, I have some beach front property in Kansas to sell you. The Bible has all of the answers for us, but we in our sinful ways want to make everything more scientific and complicated. God made it so simple it is beyond our reason.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:05am@ TROLL………..Amen ! Thank you for your defense of the truth. Since the dawn of time people have asked, not in an inquisitive manner, the same questions as ENCINOM, but rather in a challenging manner trying to call into question the character and authority of God. Paul addresses this in Romans chapter 9. If one really understands the spiritual reality of sin and holiness as described in the Word, the real significant question is not how could God send us to hell, but how could God secure for us heaven? The only way, the only way was for Him to take on human flesh setting aside His glory, emptying himself taking on the form of a servant and make himself sin on the cross, as he became obedient to the will of the Father. As the word says He bore our sins in His body. So for all the molestation, murder, rape, lying, abuse, torture that has ever been repented of in sincerity He, the Holy One that knew no sin, who had eternal and perfect communion with the Father became our sin on the cross. Being completely rejected by His Father by becoming sin He cried, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me, and for the first and only time in all eternity there was a breach in the Godhead because of mine sin !! He drank the bowl of God’s wrath for my sin and anyone else who repents. So that even a thief on the cross hours from death can receive His perfect sacrifice that has once and for all cleansed us from sin and made us perfect and holy in the Father’s sight. That is the passion with which God loves us and desires to redeem us, however, he cannot accept us with the corruption of sin due to His justice and holiness. Sure we battle with reaming sin, but it has no mastery over us. Instead God’s Spirit works in us to begin the process of transforming us more and more into the likeness of His son Jesus Christ. That is the question How could the Almighty love us his enemies that have rejected Him over and over that much? It has been His plan since before we were created, hence Jesus is known as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Amen and Amen. Let him who has ears hear what God has said on these matters.
Report Post »TurnRight
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:14amRemember: If there is no Hell, then there is no accountabilty for how you choose to live your life.
Report Post »How conveinent.
PlowMan
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:27amScripture says that a teacher is “judged more strictly”. James 3:1
Report Post »In this case I would say the teacher is the minister. For his sake I hope what he is saying is correct in the eyes of the Lord.
justin.blake
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:36amHow about this alternative…Hell is living forever out of the presence of God, knowing with full clarity as an eternal being that you had plenty of chances to choose God, and did not. Hell is living forever with your own conscience telling you what you should have done, but did not. Living eternally with the consequences of your personal choices. That satisfies not only the justice, but also the mercy of God. “How many times have I tried to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks, but ye would not”… His hand is outstretched still, all we have to do is take a hold of it and follow him. For those who, in this life, never knew him, but were good, righteous people will have the opportunity after death to hear the truth, just as Christ, prior to his appearance, See 1 Peter 3 below
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The MERCY of God sent Christ to preach to those spirits who were in ‘prison’. His JUSTICE would come into play if, after they heard the truth, refused it anyway. Then their personal CHOICES, which God, in his infinite wisdom, gives to all man, would convict them.
Report Post »I do agree with Rob Bell that it is not a physical place where blazing fire burns you forever. That just sounds silly. But to be scorched by your own realization forever that you were given every opportunity to alter your course, but chose not to….that is pure hell…cause you have no one to blame but yourself.
DTOM_Jericho
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:46am@TURNRIGHT
The accountability is death. Not eternal torture, a mythological teaching. The accountability is NOT receiving the eternal reward of having your name written in The Book of LIFE. The alternate is merciful; simply to perish.
Deut 30:19 (pretty simple concept for a God that says He never changes)
“This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live ”
He juxtaposed life with death repeatedly throughout Scriptures –not eternal waterboarding.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:50amWhere is GOd’s mercy, if the unbapisted baby is also condemed? DO you worship a God of vanity, one where those who grew up outside of the sphere of influence of the the church are condemed because of the location of their birth?
The problem is that the heavan and hell fetish of the conservative christians, is that it is another tool of theirs to discriminate and make themselves feel superior. The believe in a vain God, not of mercy but of vengence, not of justice but revenge.
Report Post »hstdal
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 11:53amRATINGSDOWN_ONETHIRD@ I feel sorry for you. You must believe in the big bang theory. Ridiculously ignorant!!!!!
Report Post »DTOM_Jericho
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:00pmSorry, this has to be said. The biggest problem is that this is a JEWISH book! The Bible that is. No, touchy-feely, jesus was a hippie, bs is going to cut it. His not is not even jesus, jesus is not even anywhere near a translation. This is not a “christian” story and there is no “the church”. christian (little christs, little messiahs) was a derogatory term tossed at JEWS that believed that Yeshua was the Messiah. “Church” in the Greek is “ekklesia” which simply means… the/an assembly.
You cannot understand the simplicity of the Scriptures by looking through Christian anachronisms which all came from ROME. Yes, all of them; all the way down through to non-denominationalist purpose drivel white-washings. Ecumenism is a lie from later “christianity” and the father of lies. You will never see an “all roads lead to God” theology in Scripture; quite the opposite. Though I don’t know why i bother. The one thing I have learned is that christians chastise people for relativism in morals then go by the rule that: “if it makes me feel good it’s true”. How liberal. Christians are more progressive than any progressives in Washington.
Report Post »Cerealface
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:01pmYou can’t make up god but you can write words onto a piece of paper and call it a book and believe whatever your parents hand you.
Report Post »Alydia
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:35pm@ ratingsdown_onethird…you are right “religion” is the real monster. Now, with that said, do you know the difference in “religion” and a personal relationship with God?
If not, then I will tell you…“religion” is a man made attempt to create their own version of God and a “personal relationship” with God is through salvation provided by Jesus through the Cross…with Jesus I get to pray and talk to the Top Guy, you know, the One who is in control….God.
Islam, Mormonism, Buddhism, Jehovah’s Witness, Catholicism, etc. are what you would call “religions” but Christianity is the REAL DEAL. So, please don’t lump “religion” and Christianity in the same category….these are two separate things.
thegrassroots
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:42pm@ encinom
Unbaptized babies are NOT condemned! From that statement, it appears that your experience is largely influenced by Catholicism. Please don’t think that the Catholic church speaks for Jesus. It Doesn’t! If you want to find out what Jesus thinks about legalistic religious institutions, which is what Catholicism is — take a look at Matthew 23.
It’s Jesus Who you need to get to know — Not Religion! There’s a huge difference! The Bible can tell you all you need to know. A good place to start is the Gospel of John! My prayer for you is that Jesus will reveal Himself to you and that you will quickly learn Who He Is and what Who Jesus Is means to each and every one of us. God Bless You, Encinom!
Report Post »Edgar Bennet
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:42pmThe way I‘ve come to grips with those who don’t know of Jesus and their path:
Jesus was sent down as the mold for all to follow. To actually believe in Jesus is to strive for that perfection – if the Spirit is in all of us than we are all born w/ Godly principles and morals. It’s just whether you choose to listen to that little voice. It‘s their for everyone whether or not they’re a WASP. Someone doesn’t have to have heard of Jesus or read the bible to know Jesus. If you grow up under other religions you will still know that they are not the way if you’re striving to be a good person.
Which also ties in with the flip side of Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Report Post »jackrorabbit
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:46pmFormer pastor,
Report Post »It is quite simple. Either the Bible is truth, therefore you have to take it all, or it is not true and thus you aren’t saved from anything, and you are not going anywhere either. The Bible isn‘t there for us to pick and choose what we do and don’t like. It is an instruction manual for life, how to life it to the fullest, how to behave in life, and how to move from this life to the afterlife, all while giving praise to God for His gift of life and gift of eternal life. God does not punish, He only allows us to reap what we sow. If we sow disbelief and choose not to accept Christ(which costs nothing but humility), they we get what we bought, which is Hell. Do bad things happen to good people? Yes, it rains on the just and the unjust. We live in a world which was cursed by God because of Adam and Eve’s sin of disobedience and as such bad things happen to everyone. God does intervene, but it requires an act of faith and prayer to allow God to intervene, otherwise God would become a “monster” because He would be the one choosing what happens to whom, but that isn’t the case. The problems are random because of a cursed world, and He intervenes when God loving, God seeking, and most importantly God saved people pray.
ZOMBIE JESUS LOVES ME
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:53pmGOD is good! (When he’s not giving little kids leukemia.)
Report Post »GODSAMERICA
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 12:58pmMaybe he’s struggling with the idea of there being a hell or not is because it states that there is one in the Bible and if he rejects it he rejects the entire Word of God. That is his decision and if he continues on then he is in danger of his eternity.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:05pmEncinom writes:
Where is GOd’s mercy, if the unbapisted baby is also condemed?
————————————————————————————–
Who says it is? The Bible says otherwise! Why not try READING the Bible, things might become clearer to you!
BTW, water baptism is the public acknowledgment of a person’s acceptance of Christ. No more…No less. Why would you bother baptizing a baby, they cannot make that decision! It is an insignificant act, I guess akin to dedicating a baby (which we did for all our children to signify that we would raise them in Christ). Water baptism has nothing to do with salvation. Spirit baptism does, but man does not control that one!
Report Post »joe3
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:15pmis beck not allowed to cover soros? he has been warning us and now soros is doing exactly what beck said he was doing.
Report Post »http://www.mrc.org/bmi/commentary/2011/Unreported_Soros_Event_Aims_to_Remake_Entire_Global_Economy.html
on drudge
trolltrainer
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:15pmHipponips:
He is asking the question to prove a point. There IS no mystical place called hell where people are tormented Hell was an actual place outside the ancient cities on earth were the bodies of the people were burned. They burned , and since they knew no God to grant them eternal life, they are NO MORE , It’s not burned over and over foreever.
—————————————————————————-
ROFL
did you go to Columbia?
I am looking for my boots…On second thought, I think I need my waders for this one…This is what we call a “Clavinism” in my neck of the woods. After Cliff Clavin…
Report Post »Georgia Born and Bred
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:32pm@DTOM_Jericho
Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:19-31 (King James Version)
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
If you would like I could post the Greek translation and whereas there are going to be some words that don’t translate the same, you’ll still see the point. The NT was never original transposed in Hebrew, it was Greek. So the exchange between the word grave and hell have no bearing at all on this conversation. Jesus speaks point blank that the rich man was not in the “grave” which would be Sheol, a place absent from GOD, He stated that the rich man was in Hades (Hell) which was a place of basanos, or torture and pain. That’s how it was written not translated. The simple fact of the matter is that Hell is a real place and place very much to be feared but that should not be the reason to accept Christ. Christ is love but just like having your own children, if they don’t listen you punish them. I know the punishment might seem extreme to us but were not God. God witnesses the evil that we as humans commit every day and is disgusted by our actions. I’m as guilty as anyone but I believe in God and all that He does everyday for mankind. Who can question the I AM THE I AM….
Report Post »Libertyluvnmomma
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:33pmThank the good Lord this church will only cater to the scriptures.
Report Post »I‘m sure there’s a Unity Church w/o a leader somewhere.
CaptainAwesome
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:53pm@Jim and his conclusion of: ” If God does not save everyone, then either He can‘t or He won’t. If he can‘t then He is not omnipotent and if He won’t, then the monster label seems appropriate.”
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hey jim, i have wrestled with that same idea. I understand the conundrum you put forth, but it fails when the situation is looked at in the context of God’s love. We would agree we were made in God‘s image i’m assuming. I think we would also agree that God is love…to define love i would turn to I corinthians 13. Now maybe you’re married, if not just imagine with me that you are. Is it love to put a collar on your wife to keep her from going astray? Is it love to distrust your partner and want to use your hand to force compliance of your Will to satisfy your internal fear? Or….is it love to say, ‘honey, i trust you…go hang out with your friends and have fun, i will be here’. One set of actions is derived from fear. The other is derived from trust. Now, knowing that we are made in his image, we are literally little gods that can control our outlook, the condition of our heart, our emotional response and our decisions. Now would it be loving for God to put us on a leash so that we could not stray? If that were the case we were not made in his image then. If that were the case God would fear the awesomeness of his being that we all have need to experience. Would it be Love that would compel God to use his heavy hand of guidance to treat us as puppets simply satisfy his own fears of us leaving him? Or…is it love for him to show patience, trust, hope and belief that we make our own decisions allowing us to make our own way in either seeking or denying him in every action and thought we take part in? The point is that it would be a violation of His Love exhibited by the fact we were made in His image to be controlling of us. For example, is it love to have a baby and carry it around without ever setting it down for fear of it falling? How is the child going to learn to walk? Or is it love to set the baby down and let it fall down…so that it may learn to get up? So tackling the idea that God ‘wont’ doesn’t fit because He has provided us with the capability to learn, love and grow and God’s love is allowing us to be like Him in that sense…the ability to choose. The idea that he can’t is indefensible in the sense that if God really did create everything, then how could he not save everyone? But what he can do is show his love by becoming man, creating a bridge through His crucifiction and resurrection that traverses the cavern of seperation created by our decisions, actions and deceitful heart. In providing evidence of who he is, his purpose while still allowing us to choose he exhibits the highest form of Love in my opinion.
Report Post »Happy Killmore
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 1:59pm“Am I really going to be saved just because I believe something, when all these good people in the world aren’t?”
Um… It’s called “faith”. I can’t believe you even made it through seminary without understanding the concept.
Report Post »ratingsdown_onethird
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 2:08pmhstdal, thanks for feeling sorry for me, but the upside is that I’m not burdened with the thought of an invisible entity wathcing my every move and reading my every thought 24/7 like you are, so I’m doing fine. I also don‘t have to get scared when it’s thundering and dark, becuse I know it’s not giants bowling. Do you?
ratingsdown_onethird
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 2:16pmAlydia, it‘s all hogwash as far as I’m concerned. I left that nonsense in my wake years ago and am the better for it. Believe what you want, it’s your prerogative.
Report Post »Amren
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 2:32pm@ ratingsdown_onethird
Report Post »And that‘s why Christianity isn’t about religion. It’s about a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ.
Always easy to spot people that have never read the book.
trolltrainer
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 2:59pmratings down 1/3 (another disguise for beckisnuts?) says:
hstdal, thanks for feeling sorry for me, but the upside is that I’m not burdened with the thought of an invisible entity wathcing my every move and reading my every thought 24/7 like you are, so I’m doing fine. I also don‘t have to get scared when it’s thundering and dark, becuse I know it’s not giants bowling. Do you?
———————————————————————————————
Amazing how much difference there is between the reality of the believer and the unbeliever, huh? This post actually had me laughing.
“I always feel like
somebody’s watching me…”
lol…
Report Post »ratingsdown_onethird
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 3:33pmAnyone alive 2000 years ago is most certainly dead now and therefore, impossible to have a relationship with. You can imagine it as you see fit, but you‘re being delusional and that’s not healthy.
Report Post »independentvoteril
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 3:52pmListen as a preacher he has to teach scripture.. however.. MANY Christians do not believe in HELL parse .. although the fact the the center of the earth is more than a little hot.. makes those that don’t believe in HELL a little questionable.. since when we talk about HELL we point down towards the center.. LOL.. I do believe that SOME religions go OVERBOARD.. with the HELL thing.. they spend so much time SCARING their worshipers about HELL and NOT enough time on the fact that GOD is a LOVING GOD… each person as they come to age will question HELL as it is PREACHED .. HOWEVER.. I don’t know of any Christians who question HEAVEN.. so no matter if a preacher questions HELL or not MOST Christians strive to reach HEAVEN.. KNOWING that is where they want to spend the forever..
Report Post »avenger
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 4:33pmyikes…hell of a way to market a book…hey…kiddies,the new hell is in the white white house and the evil bastards are destroying your country !
Report Post »jmanuola
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 4:57pmthe one serious question that neither Bell, nor this other guy seem to ever ask is the one that WILL be asked of them someday. They will stand one day before God and I can easily imagine Him asking two questions: Do you want into My kingdom? (many WILL say “no”); and If you do, why should I let you into my kingdom? The bizarre part about people like Bell is that they cannot even imagine God asking such a question. They attribute to God their own version of how He should treat sinful man. It won’t work that way, dude. Not for any of us.
Report Post »wedgeii
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 5:42pmwatchtheotherhand; what DO YOU MEAN YOU’VE BEEN DOWN THAT ROAD WITH JW s before? cause I see ya saying a lot and regurgitating lots of scripture but with know reason or harmony. It’s easy to through lots of stuff on a wall to see if it sticks but do you know what you are talking about? I too have had my encounters with the JwS AND FIND them highly knowledgeable about the bible. So, you honestly think a Loving God would torture someone in a friary place for all eternity. What would be the point? I had a friend that had a pimp that would threaten her kinda like that. She hooked for a few years till her eyes were opened,
Report Post »True2thereplublic
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 6:27pmDeuteronomy 13:1-5 In this Old Testament passage, God’s people are cautioned to carefully test the words of any self-proclaimed prophet or religious leader. If a prophet‘s teachings ever instruct people to do something contrary to God’s will, they are a false prophet and should be avoided
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:07pm@ WEDGE………..I’m pretty sure the Pharisees were pretty knowledgeable of the scriptures as well. Would you like to follow after them and their understandings.
2 Peter 3:16
Report Post »He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
nonwinger
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:10pmHow can you ascribe to God anything but monster if a child is born into an abusive family who then kills him and then awakens in an afterlife of eternal torment and suffering because he was too young/unaware of a requirement to profess belief in his savior? It might be time to reread your bible.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:12pm@ WEDGE………….It really doesn’t matter what I think about hell or what it will be like., does it? Only what God says it is and will be like in His word. So that is where we must look. Not to our limited and corrupted sense of fairness and justice.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:27pm@NONWINGER…….Who is saying that? That Bible is completely silent about what happens to very young children and mentally handicapped, etc etc……I do not believe that they are in hell.
In one of the darkest moments of the Psalmist’s life, the death of his son, David makes a proclamation which many feel reveals the eternal state of an infant. 2 Sam. 12:23 states,
“But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”
Was David teaching that he would be reunited with his son in Heaven, or that death was inevitable for all human life? Most biblical scholars believe that the context of this verse indicates that David was probably acknowledging the inevitability of death, and, thus, this verse adds little to our understanding of the eternal state of infants. If one chooses to believe, however, that David was hopeful of spending eternity with his son, we must ask if his hope is an explicit declaration of biblical truth.
Even if David had, in a time of great grief, expressed hope of being with his deceased child, this should not be viewed as a theological promise for the salvation of infants. David, although a man after God’s heart, was not infallible, and many of the things he said were not in accord with truth.
For example, read any of David’s imprecatory Psalms—7, 35, 55, 58, 59, 69, 79, 109, 137, 139. Although the Bible faithfully records David’s feeling and his call to God to bring righteous judgment, few would argue that these words represent the consistent promise of God’s judgment toward sinners.
We cannot simply assume that children are “innocent” and are therefore exempt from the penalties of sin. The Bible teaches clearly that infants are in a state of sin and need to be regenerated. They, like all humanity, can be saved only through Christ.
Ps. 51:5 — “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
John 3:6 — “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.”
Rom. 5:14 — “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression.”
In Matthew 19:14, Jesus warned against forbidding children to come to Him. This account testifies that children, just as adults, need to come to Christ.
# At the same time that Jesus implied the children’s need to come to Him, He praised children for their innocent faith—
“for such is the kingdom of heaven.”
While this is most probably an endorsement of healthy character and attitudes, it is also an approval of children in general. Jesus’ teachings concerning children show the highest love and respect (Matt. 18:1-6).
While Christ’s endorsement of childlike character is not a denial of sin nature, the Bible does seem to teach that compared to the sins of adults, infants and children possess a “relative innocence.” (Deut. 1:39, Jonah 4:11, Rom. 9:11)
To reconcile the truths that all humans are sinful but that children do possess a kind of “relative innocence”, some theologians have suggested that the distinct variations in sin could carry different kinds of “death penalties.”
For instance, could it be proposed that the penalty for inherited sin (sin passed genetically from generation to generation) is spiritual death (separation from God) which state, if left unchanged and confirmed in personal sin (sins personally committed as an act of free will) results in eternal death and eternal separation from God? Could the penalty of imputed sin (judicially passed from Adam directly to each individual – Rom. 5:12f) be physical death?
If so, it could help us to understand how a child (born in sin, yet having not committed sin as an act of the will) could be subject to physical death without being subject to the penalty of eternal spiritual death. Infants, born “guilty” of both imputed sin (ultimately resulting in physical death) and inherited sin, would not be subject to the eternal penalties of sin until confirmed by personal acts of unrighteousness committed with an understanding of right and wrong. It must be confessed that the Scriptures do not explicitly teach the existence of these distinctions. The Bible does, however, allow for this possibility.
The condition of salvation for adults is personal faith. Infants are incapable of fulfilling this condition. For this reason, many have suggested that there is an age of accountability. By this, it is understood that at a certain time in a person’s life he/she becomes aware of personal responsibility for wrong actions.
This is not simply a recognition of cause and effects, but of personal accountability and responsibility. This “age of accountability” would probably be different for every individual. Indeed, some who are mentally handicapped may never become aware of their own struggle against unrighteousness.
Again, this concept is not explicitly mentioned in the scriptures, but seems to be an accepted part of early Jewish custom. It has been suggested that one of the reasons that the apostles do not directly address the subject of infant mortality is because it was understood in their culture that a person was not responsible to God/to covenant until maturity, approximately 12 to 13 years of age.
If in some sense there is an age of accountability, it seems that provision is made for the infant’s reception of Christ in some other way. There is a possibility that infants are objects of special grace for which normal rules don’t apply. In this case, we would appeal for salvation based upon God’s love and compassion for those who are incapable of making decisions about their eternal destiny.
Some would argue that the salvation of an infant is not so much related to the child’s righteousness as it is to the righteousness of God. Based upon the gracious character of our God, we would argue that God would not condemn an infant to eternal punishment.
In Genesis 18, Abraham talked with God about the impending destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. During his intercession, Abraham appeals to God’s righteousness,
“Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (vs. 25)
To Abraham, it was an impossibility that God would send destruction and wrath upon those who did not deserve it. He challenged God that a righteous Judge would certainly do right. In response, God promised to acknowledge the existence of those who were righteous and not to destroy the cities if even ten could be found who had not conformed to wickedness. Unfortunately, ten faithful people could not be found.
Even then, however, God proved his righteousness by saving Lot and his daughters from destruction.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 7:31pm@ WEDGE…………..This is why you cannot trust their understanding of anything in the word….Also do a little research into the history of the beginning of the JW and the Watchtower society, their many failed prophecies, their errant New World Translation, and their doctrinal flip-flops that make John Kerry look like the model of consistency. This link can help you get started.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/false_religions.htm#jw
Report Post »Bearfoot
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 8:45pmIt is very easy to find out what Jehovah’s Witnesses are all about. Nobody needs to be confused about them or suspicious of them. Don’t listen to those who have a prejudice against them, just go to the source, they are not a secret society.
http://www.watchtower.org
There were opposers to Jesus, and he told his followers to expect opposers in the last days.
Report Post »TruthLover
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:16pmAmen to those brave elders who let him go so quickly and decisively. Every pastor who goes against Scripture should be treated so concisely.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 9:56pmI am sure that BEARs website does not fully discloses the history of false prophesies and flip flops in doctrine. Not to mention the committee that actually translated their New World Translation that has been altered to support their beliefs. The following is a list of the members and their credentials. I am pretty sure you wont find this on the website BEAR gave you. But see if BEAR can disprove one thing I will post.
Franz, Frederick
Probably the only person to actually translate. Franz was a liberal arts student at the University of Cincinnati:
21 semester hours of classical Greek, some Latin.
Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year.
Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and Aramaic
Gangas, George
No training in biblical languages. Gangas was a Turkish national who knew Modern Greek. Translated Watchtower publications into Modern Greek.
Henschel, Milton
No training in biblical languages.
Klein, Karl
No training in biblical languages.
Knorr, Nathan
No training in biblical languages
Schroeder, Albert
Report Post »No training in biblical languages. Schroeder majored in mechanical engineering for three years before dropping out.
Taquoshi
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:05pmRobin.Kevin -
Well I have not read “Love Wins” but the idea of being cast into hell for your sins if you don’t live “perfect” is not really a new idea.
Most respectfully, you are wrong about the Christian message. It’s not about living “perfect” because that is faith by works. Check out Ephesians 2:8-9. The only one who lived a “perfect” life was Jesus Christ. Period. The rest of us have fallen short. Romans 3:23. The next step on the path is John 3:16, but before declaring that everyone who is in church is saved, you might want to read Matthew 25:31 and forward.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 24, 2011 at 10:20pm@ ROBIN……in addition to what TAQUISH has said that I would agree with. All people are not Gods children they are his creation. Only those who follow Him faithfully in faith are ever called his children. See John 8:44 where Jesus actually called the Pharisees children of their father the devil……
Report Post »foobear
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 5:52am@Dtom_Jericho: Your opinion is wrong, in several places.
Read over Matthew 22 and find out why.
Report Post »foobear
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 5:59amIf I recall correctly, Pope John Paul II floated the notion of hell being a state of permanent spiritual disconnect from God.
CS Lewis had some similar beliefs, as I recall, too.
Report Post »roblot
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 9:51amThis also proves Christs prophecies about false teachers coming into the pulpit. Unfortunately many actual church going christian-lites are going to fall for this as I call, “easy street” Christianity, and follow these false teachers right into the anti-christs hands when he shows up on this earth spouting his prosperity, freedom and all good things to the world and will believe he is the true Christ. The King James version of the bible is the Gods truth and people do not want to accept that the Lord would condemn them to hell for eternity. It is truly sad when all you have to do is accept Him and believe He shed His blood for you on the cross at Calvary and live your flesh life according to the word of God.
Report Post »foobear
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 8:22pm@Roblot: The King James Bible is filled with inaccuracies and mistranslations. You should never really use it. The NKJV is better.
“Thees and Thous” may sound extra religious, but they’re not. It’s just the idiom of a previous era.
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on March 25, 2011 at 11:24pmTroll and the rest get off your covenant theology. forget Calvin and all you hope to grab and judge those who don’t agree with your position, you obviously hold to much on to what doesn’t pertain to you. It appears this has been an exercise in biblical illiteracy and wow we’ve seen it on display.
We are grafted in and have been made partakers of the commonwealth of Israel yet we are not Israel, the promises made to them remain theirs not the church’s. And by the way there are three judgments in the bible. You’ll find one in Corinthians for the body of Christ and Revelations dealing with both those alive after the great battle and after the thousand years of the reign of Christ, the final judgment, each are different from one another.
I have never seen such ignorance on display on scripture you all judged each other and not once have you all dealt seriously with the reason for salvation. Even my little note I posted early on in regards to this article covered more without mentioning scripture then all you have written here. Take offense please it’s intended you all need to sit down with the bible and not just read it, humble yourselves in prayer before you even pick up the word of God then begin studying, but understand what your presented with.
To boast about reading the book of Zacharia is not impressive it’s ignorance on what is important about what Christ did. Zacharia and all prophets for told of Christ, that’s why its called the “old testament” “the covenant of promise” and referred to as “prophesies”, when one boast of this he is puffed up and assumes he’s the only one of thousands who read this blog is without understanding of scripture. I’d say humble yourself before the Lord does it for you. Deal with the subject at hand, hell is subjective those are condemned will suffer according to the Lord judgment, and each will suffer the final separation from their creator. This is hell not the lake of fire. It is clearly explained in scripture and no one has any room to argue.
Report Post »watchtheotherhand
Posted on March 26, 2011 at 10:09am@ TASKMASTER…………….Obviously you have not read my posts. You sound like you write from a dispensationalists view as well as a pre-millennial view point. To suggest you have cornered the market on theology in these 2 ares goes farther than the greatest spiritual minds do in either category as they have acknowledged that their were giants of God that held opposing positions and had good reason for holding those positions. Explain, if you will, more about what you are talking about and what your background is so I can better understand what you were trying to convey. For someone who once to denounce others biblical illiteracy I must take issue with this point.
“Let me be clear with my response: it‘s not God’s will, he gave Satan dominion over his creation “earth” at the fall of man and Satan rules this world not God.”
God is absolutely sovereign over all things including Satan. Satan must ask permission to do anything.
Mt. 10:29,30 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs on your head are numbered.
“The Lord he is God; there is none else besides him.“ ”He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else” (Deut. 4:35, 39).
“Thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth” (2 Kings 19:15).
Isaiah 54:16
16 “See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc; 17 no weapon forged against you will prevail.
Satan certainly is the god of this age that blinds the minds of the believers and wreaks havoc through the systems of this world, but he is in know way outside of the control of God. Jospeh said to his brothers what you intended for evil (Satan was implied as being behind their actions), God intended for good.
Luke 22
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
John 19
Report Post »Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.
merely
Posted on April 10, 2011 at 12:09pmThe simple truth is, if there is a “hell,” it can not be eternal. If it were, God could not be the “all in all” scripture speaks of in 1 Cor 15:27-28.
ALL THINGS shall be subjected/subdued unto Christ, who, in turn, will subject Himself unto the Father that God may be ALL IN ALL.
Report Post »SurvivorGirl007
Posted on April 17, 2011 at 9:31pmIt‘s a terrible irony to me that this UMC pastor was fired for falling in line with Rob Bell’s thinking re: the existence of hell – and another UMC pastor was fired, also in N.C., for performing a civil union for a gay couple – but when a UMC pastor admits to clergy sexual misconduct (again, here in N.C.) in front of his superior, there is nary a hand slapped. In fact, the UMC is famous for stonewalling victims who have been abused by its pastors. How quick they are to fire a “heretic,” yet how reluctant they are to chastise, let alone fire, an abuser. Go figure.
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