Faith

Pastor Rick Warren: Mormons‘ Views on ’The Trinity‘ Are a ’Sticking Point’

ABC’s Jake Tapper recently sat down with Rick Warren, one of the nation’s most well-known evangelical leaders. During their discussion, Tapper asked the famed preacher about his opinion on economic matters, religious freedom and Mormonism, among other subjects. And it’s the last topic that is getting a lot of attention.

Rick Warren: Mormons Views on The Trinity Are a Sticking Point

Pastor Rick Warren with President Barack Obama

Throughout the Republican primary, many have questioned how Mitt Romney’s The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints membership would impact his electoral success. The Blaze has covered this topic in detail in the past.

During the interview, Tapper told Warren what many other political observers and journalists have conceded — that it looks as though Romney will be the nation’s first LDS nominee. Then, the journalist asked the question that continues to be debated in some evangelical circles: Are Mormons Christians?

Rather than providing a simple “yes” or “no” response, Warren explained what causes cautiousness among some Christians when it comes to this subject.

“Well, the key sticking point for evangelicals and actually for many is the issue of the Trinity,” Warren explained. “Orthodox Christians, Catholic Christians, Protestant Christians, evangelical Christians and Pentecostal Christians all believe in the Trinity; that’s the historic doctrine of the church, that God is three-in-one. Not three gods; one God in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”

The faith leader went on to say that Mormonism denies this doctrine, calling it “a sticking point for a lot of Catholic Christians, evangelical Christians, Pentecostal Christians.” Warren also explained his belief that, although Mormon‘s don’t believe in the trinity, they use the same terminology.

This, he explains, is “one of the fundamental differences” between Mormons and Christians.

Watch these comments (the exchange begins around 9:00, below):

video platformvideo managementvideo solutionsvideo player

Comments (219)

1 2 3
  • Eaglesyx
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:05pm

    For those have trouble understanding the concept of the Trinity, consider a man (understanding of the Judeo-Christian concept of marriage is necessary for all of this to make sense):

    He is a unique, individual, self-aware being; responsible for his own thoughts and actions and ultimately answerable to only himself and his God.

    Yet he is a husband to his wife; responsible for her well-being, charged to love, cherish, protect and provide for her. To her he is many things, but above all, her love and her “lord”. He completes her, as she completes him in the context of that marriage.

    He is the father to his children. Unique to each of them, but charged by that fatherhood with the most awesome task a man can have; to raise, nurture, teach and love them and to prepare them for their own unique place in the world.

    This man is each of the distinct persons I have described, but he is only one man, Cannot God be one God, but with three distinct roles? If you ask how God the Holy Spirit can be in so many places at once, consider that God is omnipotent and omnipresent. Limits are placed on Him by the weakness or our own understanding, not His. He can, if He chooses, be One with the spirits of many men and women, by joining His Spirit with theirs. That’s why the Holy Spirit is a necessary aspect of the one God, and why that aspect must be Spirit and totally distinct from God the Father and God the Son (the Christ).

    Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:29pm

      This explanation is a description of “modelism” which attributes a claim that there is one person who appears in three different forms (or modes). The fatal shortcoming is the fact that they deny the personal relationship within the Trinity that appear in so many places in teh bible (or it must affirm that these were simply illusions and not real). And in doing so it must say that all those instances where Jesus is praying to the Father are an illusion or charade.

      We should be warned that understanding the Trinity or attempts to simplify it to make it understandable is wrong. However it is not correct to say we cannot understand the Trinity at all. In fact it is spiritually healthy for us to acknowledge openly that God’s very being is far greater than we can ever comprehend. This should humble us before God and draw us to worship him without reservation.

      Report Post »  
    • stone2016
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:06pm

      VZ1K6W,
      It seems I may have found the difference between your view of God and mine. My view is that God does not want to be mysterious or incomprehensible. We simple need to use what He has given us and put in the real life work it requires to learn it. Number one would be to realize God praying to himself or God asking “My God, why have you forsaken me.” puts into question whether or not God would be dishonest and what would be the purpose behind such a charade? Everything He does has a purpose and He wants us to know His purpose. Knowing His purpose and doing everything we can to make sure His purpose is our purpose seems to bring us closer together. Someone might even say that when my purpose is God’s purpose and I can do and act as He would in all situations, that we are One. But that’s crazy for anyone to ever think two distinct individuals could be considered one.

      So for now, I’m going to do my best to be ONE with my wife, as the scriptures teach. Two distinct individuals being one…wait…where have I heard that nonsense before?

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:18pm

      First, the word “trinity” is never used in the scriptures – because it was not created until several hundred years later.

      Secondly, your comparison to marriage in relation to the concept of the Godhead is important. Just as God and Christ are two completely separate personages – they are considered one – just as two completely separate people are considered “one” when they are married as found in Genesis 2:24:

      24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

      Christ himself further explains this when he stated that:

      21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:21).

      If such scriptures were to mean that God and Christ are literally one personage, then the above scripture would be saying that we will eventually literally become part of the Godhead… obviously not. It would also thus state that when we are married to our spouse, that we will suddenly morph into one personage… obviously not.

      To be “one” means to be one in purpose and mission; it means unity. God and Christ are one in that they are in perfect harmony.

      “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” (John 5:19).

      …

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:25pm

      But the only thing is, scripture says you can only know what God has revealed of himself. You cannot know God entirely and his mysteries are just that (and to his glory). Psalm 145:3 says “Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised and his greatness is ”unsearchable”".. and again Psalm 147:5 says “Great is out Lord and abundant power; his understanding is beyond measure”. so you belive God wants to be fully revealed and I believe we can only know what God reveals of himself. I know he spoek creation into existance because we are here.. but I will never know how he “spoke creation into existance” it si to great for me to see/understand.

      Unity in marriage is just as important as “one body” the church but we are still distinct individuals making up the body of the church.. its simply not the same as the one God we worship.

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:33pm

      But these examples only support the idea of more than one coming together in purpose. Marriage for example holds that (2) people are coming together to comit their lives to each other. They are (2) united in one purpose or mission. To regard God in the same way would have to subscribe that they are more than one God but united in purpose and mission. You can believe that but this however is completely opposite of the scriptures I mentioned previously:

      Deut 6:4 says “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is [one]” and Isa: 45:5-6 says that “I am the Lord and there is no other”..

      He is not saying the Lord is 2 or 3 but ONE united in purpose… he is saying “I am the Lord and there is no OTHER”… I don’t get the leap from that to multiple personages but one united in purpose and mission..

      Report Post »  
    • EgbertThrockmorton
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 4:10pm

      Having been a “neighbor” to Saddleback Church and having personal knowledge of RickWarren’s “ministry” since it’s inception, I hqve personally witnessed many falsehoods (lies perhaps?) Coming directly from Warren’s mouth to his parishoners about Mormons and Catholics. These are his two
      largest “competitors” in his sphere of influence for Saddleback Church. My personal experience
      indicates with Warren, it IS more about the monies he is losing(from tithes and offerings) to parishoners who leve his flock for more concise religious docteine. I’ve seen and personally heard his anti-Mormon and anti-Catholic pulpit diatribes. He is a “bigot” only when an organized religion
      Is “costing” him money. His home is rather palatial and in a VERY nice area of south Orange County.
      So it would appear, he is telling his “flock” what they want to hear, instead of actual truth, which may explain Obama’s “fascination” with “Pastor Warren”. He is a very slick orator as well, then again,
      so was Adolf Hitler.

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 5:03pm

      @VZ1K6W –

      First, I think we might be using different translations of the Bible – I’m using the King James version. Which one are you using?

      For example, my translation states in Psalms 147:5 – Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is “infinite.” – which is inapplicable to the conversation because it is simply saying that the Lord’s understanding and comprehension are infinite or never-ending i.e. beyond measure. It doesn‘t mean that we can’t understand who we are worshiping.

      Secondly, Moses’s example of marriage was only one of my analogies. But it still applies to the Godhead since they are all perfectly united in everything they do, just as a marriage is supposed to be. Indeed, Christ is often referred to as the “bridegroom.”

      Further, you partially misrepresent some of your scriptures by taking them out of context. When it is said that he Lord is “one Lord” (you left out the word “Lord” when you only said [one]) Moses was preaching against worshiping false idols instead of the Lord. He was not saying that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all one person splitting himself into three people.

      I too cannot understand the leap to believe that God would pray to himself, that he would ask himself to remove the pain from himself while on the cross, that he is his own father and his own son…

      Please, it is so painfully obvious that its silly to try to say otherwise.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 5:53pm

      I’m using the NIV but the explanation of the scripture is the same. You‘re saying that this scripture declares the Lord’s understanding is unending or infinite. So the creator of the universe wants us to know that his comprehension has no end (??). I say that this scripture declares the Lord is mighty in power and you cannot understand his limits (which is in context) and cross references Isa 40:26-29 (read in context). To say that in all his greatness, he wants us to simply understand that “he” has an unending understanding makes absolutely no sense at all.

      Marriage does have unity in its purpose but not in the trinity perspective. When 2 people come together we don’t see a triunity as with God but at the very least a unity of 2 persons who remain distinct but are one in mind/body/sprit. Marriage has everything to do with relationship to each other “the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is her husband, the head of Christ is God (paraphrased) 1 Cor 11:3. In every reference to marriage and Christ, it has everything to do with relationship and nothing to do with Trinity and God as (one).

      I think I did reference “Lord” when I checked what I wrote so not sure where there is misrepresentation (??)In fact Moses was preaching a radical idea since most Eastern religions had (many) scores of gods in their teaching. Moses stated the opposite which supports the idea that God is indeed (one).

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 6:00pm

      Lastly, if you do not believe that Christ is God then you put your faith in someone less than God and you attribute your salvation to a non-God which is terribly hard to understand. Why does God pray to himself, ask for the cup to pass from himself.. again Jesus had to become man to be a valid substitute for “mans” sins. Anything else would not have been appropriate. How this happens is indeedf a mystery but because you cannot explain how Jesus (God in human flesh) prays to God the Father and that this is a relationship (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) which exemplifies the marriage relationship doesn’t invalidate the claim the scripture makes.

      You have no choice but to accept that there are mysteries of God that you simply will not understnad – that none of us will understand unless he chooses to reveal it.

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 6:47pm

      @VZ1 – I do not put my faith in someone who is “less” than God… Christ is equal to his father since he is literally an heir to God; since he is part of the Godhead.

      John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself EQUAL with God. (Emphasis added).

      After reading your replies, I’m not really sure if you even know for sure what side of the argument your taking. Was Jesus Christ himself – or God while on earth? I ask because at one point you claim that Christ is God, then the next moment you claim that Christ is a man praying to God… so half of himself is in heaven and the other half is in a mortal form praying to himself?

      Honestly, you sound like you have good intentions… so its sad that you accept the theory that you cannot know who your Father in Heaven is.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 8:37pm

      You seem to state a conclusion after reading my posts and then leap to a further conclusion that is nowhere near what I am saying (which is kind of wierd).. no where did I say or suggest I don’t know who my Father in heaven is.. in fact everything I‘ve posted states that we can only know what God reveals of himself namely through the bible and I’ve provided scripture to support that.. you seem to rationalize differently almost in every counter post but I cannot understand why nor is it important.

      My position is this and has been this in everything I’ve posted: Jesus Christ was fully God and fuilly man in one person, and will be so forever. It was not half of him in heaven and half of him mortal on earth. Only God could atone for our sins and only God could live a perfect life to atone for our sins. My faith is entirely in God himself and not a created being. Christ is God and always will be God who took on the form of man to be a substitute for man’s sins. How God can send himself as a man and live as a man is no more a mystery than how God can be everywhere (omnipresent) and know everything (omnicient) or how God can create somehing out of nothing.. these are clear mysteries that no one can explain yet they are true as revealed in the scriptures that God has provided.

      Christ is not a created being to be made equal to God and nowhere does the bible say that. But the bible does say that Jesus is the exact representation of God in all form and likeness.

      Report Post »  
    • Eaglesyx
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 11:16am

      (Posted twice because I’m not sure where it will appear. My apologies.)

      Fascinating discussion. I hope some are still reading this thread. I know that my analogies are somewhat simplistic and certainly do not expain the ‘mysteries” that are God’s to reveal as He chooses.

      Concerning the part of your discussion regarding God’s revelation of Himself and his eternal purposes, the scripture I most often remember is Roman’s 11:34, “For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?” or Isaiah 55:8, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”.

      In trying to illustrate or understand the mind and purposes of God, anything I say is my own vanity. I only seek to share what I hope will bless someone and glorify my Lord. The only thing I know for certain is that in the fullness of time the revelation of His will shall settle both his love for those who honestly seek to worship Him and His justice for those who don’t.

      I also sometimes hope to warn those who use their limited understanding of him to justify a political, racial or ideological position. That is a vanity, greater even than my own.

      Report Post »  
    • lillith70
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 11:30am

      Mormons are not traditional Christianity but restorationist Christians. Wikipedia says it. Funny thing and apt for those who pridefully hold forth a doctrine made in 351 AD (?) at a council of Catholic bishops and which requires a “mystery” designation in its understanding.

      Mormonism came forth in the only country it could at the time, in a protestant America in a country with a constitution physically brought about by what must have been God enlightened diests. Search online for definition of priestcraft and what Thomas Jefferson thought of its practitioners.

      Mormonism came forth in a period called The Second American Revolution when the population doubled and people were in movement across the country, the early 1800′s. It was a period of restorationist thought and Ralph Waldo Emerson. Evangelizi was common and at a fever pitch in some areas at that time and the seeds for the Mormonphobia of the right wing fundamentalists were sown because of competition, ex-Mormon dissenters and rabble rousing political dabbling And pride is the universal sin. The Father of Pride is? Those who do not know or believe in a dark force are not apt to know how to avoid the pitfalls or the pit? His ways oft used by mortal men?

      Cure for pride is humility and who was the ultimate in humble service. What we do not know could be hurting us collectively. But surely the USA has more than the 10 it would have taken to save Sodom.

      Peace be with us if we can find it in our heart?.

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 11:54am

      @ Eagles

      Well spoken and good scripture reference. When confronted with scripture.. it no longer becomes an argument with me or you or someone else but with God.. and who can withstand his wisdom.

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 12:39pm

      @EAGLESYX –

      I liked your analogy in the first post regarding how a man can have many titles. However, I do not suddenly dissect into two or three different bodies at once to be a father, a son, and a husband. This is what God would have to do if theory of the trinity is accurate as seen below in one of the most famous scriptures in the Bible:

      16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

      17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

      Jesus was standing near the water, the Holy Ghost was descending like a dove, and God was speaking from heaven. Three different personages in three different places all at once.

      This irrefutable evidence of three different personages making up the Godhead requires no “mysteries” to understand as stated above.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 1:03pm

      I think we all agree that they are distinct persons but I would add to that observation that each person is (equal) to the (whole) being of God and this is the mystery we cannot explain. I think what you are saying is that they are distinct persons but only God is God and Jesus is not God and the Holy Spirit is not God. This is where there is a difference in understanding of the scripture. Of course we will see distinctions within the Trinity but it is what makes up the whole being of God.

      Report Post »  
  • BetterNTexas
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:56pm

    The difference between Mormons and Catholics/Protestants/Evangelicals/etc. is this: Mormons worship the Jesus they find in the pages of the New Testament. They do not believe the description of Jesus as formed by the Nicene Creed. They do, however, believe that Christ appeared in these latter days to call a prophet and prepare the people for His return.

    To compare the two: Mormons believe in the Jesus of the New Testament and they believe in the Jesus who appeared to Joseph Smith. They do not believe in the description of Jesus as given by the Council at Nicea in the Nicene creed.

    Catholics/Protestants/Evangelicals/etc. believe in the Jesus of the New Testament and they believe in the Jesus of the Nicene Creed. They do not believe in the description of Jesus as given by Joseph Smith.

    Each group accepts something as doctrine about the nature of God that was recorded post New Testament. Mormons believe in the testimony of Joseph Smith (and others like Oliver Cowdery who also added their account to Joseph’s) while other Christian denominations believe in the testimony of the Council at Nicea.

    Catholics/Protestants/Evangelicals/etc wish that Mormons accepted the depiction of Christ provided by the Nicene Creed, aka the Trinity, while Mormons wish they accepted the depiction of Christ as provided by Joseph Smith.

    All involved believe in & worship the same Jesus found in the New Testament. It’s the “extra” they disagree on.

    Report Post »  
    • Gita
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:14pm

      To believe your explanation is to believe that while Christ was on earth He forgot to tell us some things. Not so. All we needed to know to get into heaven was revealed to us by Christ while on earth. Any claim that Christ appeared to anyone to reveal something new must be dismissed. When Christ appears to someone it is only to remind us of what he taught us already.

      Report Post » Gita  
    • LDSGuy
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:55pm

      http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/harvard-hosts-mormon-apostle

      This is a great link to hear a quick synopsis of LDS beliefs. This is an address given by Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles. He addresses both New Testament teachings as well as Post New Testament Creeds.

      Report Post »  
    • StanO360
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:37pm

      That is just not accurate, I can call a couch a chair and it is still not a chair. Mormons, in light of historical Christianity call “a couch a chair”. But, it is not just the Trinity, there are many other views as well, that are problematical to Catholics/Evangelicals/Mainline Christians.

      I’ve NEVER had a Mormon come to my door and say “Oh! You’re a Christian, okay, see you later!”. Why? Because they know there are fundamental differences, not small differences (like between Baptists and Presbyterians) or even the differences between Catholics and Protestants (minor core doctrine differences, and larger church practice differences).

      The very essence of Christianity and Mormonism are different. One believes in a Cosmic seeding of planets by “Saviors” like Jesus a literal, physical son of God, and the the other (Christianity) that Jesus is literally God himself.

      Report Post »  
    • Lux
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:03pm

      @ Gita:
      “Any claim that Christ appeared to anyone to reveal something new must be dismissed. When Christ appears to someone it is only to remind us of what he taught us already.”

      And that is exactly why the LDS church has never claimed what we believe to be ‘new doctrine’ or ‘new teachings’. When Christ appeared to the boy Joseph it ushered in what is known as the Restoration of the Gospel. Let us take a look at the definition of the word restoration.

      Restoration:
      1. The return of something to a former owner, place, or condition.
      2. The process of repairing or renovating a building, work of art, etc., so as to restore it to its original condition.

      Now let us take a look at the meaning of the word reform or reformation.

      Reformation:
      1. The act of reforming or the state of being reformed.
      2. Reformation A 16th-century movement in Western Europe that aimed at reforming some doctrines and practices of the Roman Catholic Church and resulted in the establishment of the Protestant churches.
      Reform:
      1. To improve by alteration, correction of error, or removal of defects; put into a better form or condition.
      2.
      a. To abolish abuse or malpractice in: reform the government.
      b. To put an end to (a wrong). See Synonyms at correct.
      3. To cause (a person) to give up harmful or immoral practices; persuade to adopt a better way of life.
      v.intr.
      To change for the better.
      n.
      1. A change for the better; an improvement.
      2. Correction of evils, abuses, or e

      Report Post » Lux  
    • Lux
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:05pm

      Now this is what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe, I ask you as I’ve ask many, to point out which of these beliefs are not in strict accord with the doctrine that Christ taught in the Bible.

      1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
      2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
      3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
      4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
      5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
      6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
      7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
      8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

      Report Post » Lux  
    • Lux
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:06pm

      9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
      10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
      11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
      12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
      13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

      http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

      Report Post » Lux  
    • BetterNTexas
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:08pm

      @GITA–I respectfully disagree with your thought that all we needed to know about Christ was given to us while He was on the earth. If that were so, then why did He appear to Paul? Why did He give Peter a vision in which he (Peter) was given further direction? And if we were given all we needed to know during Christ’s mortality, why did God speak to man for thousands of years before Christ? If God has extended forth His hand to recover His people (which I believe He has) and prepare them for His return, wouldn’t He tell someone (like say, a prophet) about it like He did over and over again for thousands of years?

      I understand that you believe differently. But can you look at the Bible–both the OT and the NT and see the patterns of divine revelation that are established there (and continued throughout the OT, His mortality, and after His ascension) and understand why I might believe differently than you yet still have my faith firmly rooted in the Jesus Christ of the Bible?

      @STAN0360–My post was addressing Warren’s “sticking point.” It was not intended as a discussion of all the differences between the various denominations. If anyone is interested in that, they can research their questions for themselves at lds.org or mormon.org and compare it to their own denominational beliefs.

      Report Post »  
    • Lux
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:08pm

      I’ll then ask you, as I have asked many, to read every page of the Book of Mormon and look for anything that is in conflict with the doctrine of Christ in the Bible. Ok… Ok… I’ll admit that these are trick questions, because nothing in our Articles of Faith or in the Book of Mormon do conflict or contradict the teachings of Christ found in the Bible.

      Why? Because they are the same, Christ’s doctrine is unchanging, it has always been, and always will be the same because it is perfect. It matters not when or where those teachings are revealed, whether it be to the Jews or Gentiles, in the Old World or the New World, they are and will always be the same.
      Those teachings in there fullness were, however, lost for a time, hence the need for them to be restored to the earth.

      Report Post » Lux  
    • TLUnrine
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 4:20pm

      LUX – what is interesting about the Mormon 13 Article of Faith is that it was one of the very first published “half-truths’ of Mormonism, Joe Smith submitted this letter to the Press as Propaganda to convince people that Mormons are normal.

      Like Mitt Romney and his half-truths, I can see where Mitt was trained – in the church:

      Where is the 14th Article: We Mormons are honorable men, we marry every woman that we sleep with. Joe Smith was already married to multiple wives when this propaganda came out, why the half-truth, and not confessing to polygamy?

      Mormon Morality – can’t trust a Mormon.

      Report Post »  
  • Tracy Y. Andersen
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:56pm

    The creeds that define Christianity as most other faiths hold, were an outcome of the various creed-creating councils around 300-350 AD, and have become the norm in thought and belief.

    LDS theology, by definition, is based on revelation to restore the truths as taught by Christ, and as recorded in the Bible. THAT, I am afraid, may just be the “sticking point” rather than an argument about the trinity.

    Is God “the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.”? Or do we deny Him the opportunity to reveal truths to us today, holding to men’s interpretations instead? Have we closed the heavens on ourselves, or can we accept continuing revelation?

    Jesus himself pointed out that there must come a falling away, then there will be a restoration of His power and authority. This we believe to have been accomplished through Joseph Smith, Jr., and continues today. The heavens are NOT closed.

    For those genuinely interested, the various sites, as LDS.org or mormon.org will help answer questions, and of course, there are a plethora of mormon-bashing sites that will give you all sorts of negative talking points against us. Do your research — whichever way you want to go. Truth will prevail.

    Report Post »  
    • Lux
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 7:19pm

      Nice post. The truth will prevail.

      Report Post » Lux  
  • Gita
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:32pm

    The truth is Christ did not give us a bible. Christ gave us a church, the holy catholic and apostolic church. Any other church is a man made break away from the catholic church. Don’t believe me read the early church fathers. These are the men who actually knew some of the apostles.

    Report Post » Gita  
    • dixiedown
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:05pm

      “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).

      Seems to me Mormonism was founded on the idea that all other sects are wrong.
      So why be offended when Evangelicals say you’re wrong theologically?
      I‘ve never met a Mormon who wasn’t a delightful person who shares virtually all my values.
      Most Mormons I know will talk about Jesus with me but they light up when talking about Joseph Smith. Just an observation. It’s all about Jesus folks. Not what I can do for Him but what He did for us.
      In that while we were sinners He died for us all. Praise God. Glory in the Highest!

      Report Post » dixiedown  
    • FROTHYDISCHARGE
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:52pm

      Dixiedown I understand you’re point but here is another way to look at it. We don’t look at other religions as wrong. They contain truth and make men good. We just believe that there are parts missing. When you look at this objectively it makes since because why are there so many religions even in the Christian Realm. Again we are taught never to view someone’s religious beliefs as wrong.
      “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to
      the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same
      privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
      Article of Faith #11

      Report Post » FROTHYDISCHARGE  
  • vz1k6w
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:24pm

    Continued from the first post:

    Second, Justification by faith alone is threatened if we deny the full diety of the Son. If Jesus is not fully God we would rightly doubt wether we can really trust him to save us completely. Can we we really depend on any creature fully for salvation?

    Tird, If Jesus is not infinite God should we pray to him or worship him? Who but an infinite, omniscient God could hear and respond to all prayers of all God’s people? And who but God is worthy of worship? If Jesus is merely a creature, it would be idolatry to worship him and yet the bible tells us to worship Jesus (Phil 2:9-1; Rev 5:12-14.

    Fourth, if someone teaches Christ is a created being but nonetheless one who saved us, this wrongly attributes credit for our salvation to a created creature and not to God.

    Fifth, the independance and personal nature of God are at stake. If there is no trinity, then there in no interpersonal relationships within the being of God before creation, and without personal relationships, it is difficult to see how God could be genuinely personal or be without the need for creation to relate to.

    Sixth, the unity of the universe is at stake. If there is not perfect plurality and perfect unity in God himself, then we have no basis for thinking there can be any ultimate unity among the diverse elements of the universe either.

    Report Post »  
  • 912network
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:22pm

    Employing definitions of that exclude those with which one disagrees of points of doctrine, however framed, is bigoted, un-Christian behavior!

    Who, besides Christ himself, has the authority to exclude those who believe in Him, from Christianity?

    Latter-day Saints‘ beliefs are in harmony with what the Holy Bible calls ’Christian‘ or ’Christians:’

    Those terms are “found three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16), but it is not defined in any of those passages. According to Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, the term Christian may be defined in a number of ways, but the most common is ‘one who believes or professes … to believe in Jesus Christ and the truth as taught by him … one whose life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ.‘ The second most common meaning is ’a member of a church or group professing Christian doctrine or belief.’

    “Under either of these two definitions, Latter-day Saints qualify as Christians. However, if a special definition is created under which Christian means ‘only those who believe as I do,’ then others might claim Latter-day Saints aren’t Christians—but all this would really mean is that while Mormons believe in Christ, we don’t believe exactly as they do. Exclusion by inventing a special definition for the word Christian is like defining a duck as an aquatic bird with a broad, flat bill, webbed feet, and white feathers, and then concluding that mallards aren’t ducks beca

    Report Post »  
    • StanO360
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:46pm

      The why did Paul call Gnosticism and other fractures in the church lies? Jesus is not self-defined. Jesus allowed people to worship him, he called himself “I Am”. Mormons may be nice people, but to just say in essence “It’s all good” is wrong. The Council at Nicea confirmed core Christian beliefs against the assaults of errant philosophies, it did not create them. It gave a summation of core beliefs that anyone could learn, as most were unable to read.

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 8:13pm

      LOL your continued condescending approach in this conversation is amusing. But seriously, I’m just waiting for you to answer the simple question I positioned twice now and for some reason your stuck on definitions of “us” and “ours”. Focus please.. now that we understand what “us” and “ours” means and how its applied in the plural verb format how do you apply it to this scripture Gen 1:26 “let us create man in our image, after our likeness”.. in fact you are adding to my point – the plurality of the verb as it is used here suggests that more than one person was involved in the creation of man. But scripture also says that only God created (man). This is one of the first evidences of the plurality of persons in God himself (one God).

      For the use of plural/singular in the verse Gen 11:7 whom shall I send, who will go for us – why (why) would he have to send his son for others in the heavenly places? He sent his son for himself and only himself because of his grace for the sinful..nowhere does it say he sent his son for God AND angels or majestic courts…. Who in the heavenly places other than God did he send his son for?

      Your example of a squad member (representing) the squad identifies a clear representation of whom the squad member will represent and a purpose. If you think God sent his son for others in heavan who and why did he have to do that.

      I didn‘t say I didn’t understand God in relation to Jesus (the man), I’m saying I understand only what th

      Report Post »  
  • vz1k6w
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:15pm

    This by far has been the most interesting feedback aroud religion and christianity. I would never want to be in the position if bashing anyone for their faith but I would point to God’s word for understanding but this is why as a christian, I believe the Mormon Faith is faulty:

    God is not 3 persons and the scriptures are abundantly clear on this piont. Deut 6:4 says “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is [one]” and Isa: 45:5-6 says that “I am the Lord and there is no other”..

    Yet the idea of teh trinity is represetned and taught in many places in the bible. For instance, in Genesis 1:26 God said “Let [us] make man in [our] image, after [our] likeness”. and inj Isa 6:8 he says “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Notice the combination of singualr and plural in the same sentence..

    To the christian, the doctrine of the Trinity is important because if not – the atonement is at stake. If Jesus is merely a created being like angels and satan and “us” it becomes hard to see how a creature created by God can bear the full wrath of God for all our sins (and live).. if that is the case, what is the purpose of God.. Jesus has now become greater because he can absorb the “full wrath” of God and live. Could any creater no matter how great really save us?

    See continued post for final thoughts next:…

    Report Post »  
    • FROTHYDISCHARGE
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:34pm

      God is not three people. There is God the Father Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Ghost. This a plain and precious truth that has been lost not because of the Bible but what man has done to the Bible to suit his beliefs. It is so simple it is out in the open. Just look at the Baptism of Christ. You will see three distinct beings. Why are you letting the left divide us? The time is coming where people of faith will Have to band together

      Report Post » FROTHYDISCHARGE  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:12pm

      I agree God is (not) three persons as the definition of a Trinitarian God: “God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is (one) God. I think you may have misunderstood what I posted. Everything I am saying is that God the Father sent God the Son to die for our sins.. Jesus is not a created being but eternally existed as part of the God-head. But to be clear, there is only ONE God.

      Report Post »  
    • stone2016
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:48pm

      Yes, I completely agree with your posts. Your interpretation of Jesus does seem questionable when your interpretation of the Jesus is put into question. And selective use of the Bible doesn’t seem to be helping. Just please remember it is YOUR interpretation. Unless you can claim a real authority on your interpretation of the Bible. And I do mean REAL AUTHORITY.

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:02pm

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts in a very well thought out post. However, you seem to be saying the same thing as the third-century trinitarians but simply in a reverse form. They say 3 in 1, and you seem to be saying 1 in 3. Either format is faulty based on scripture AND truth…

      This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, Matt. 3:17 (Matt. 17:5) – is God his own Son and well please with himself?

      my Father is greater than I, John 14:28 – is God greater than himself?

      saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:55 – is God standing by his own right hand?

      THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, 1 Jn. 5:7.

      God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost is he whom God sends to testify of Him.

      You have stated that the Godhead is impossible to understand – not so. In fact, its quite simple as long as you don’t get sucked in by third-century creeds that confuse the simplest of concepts.

      God is our Father. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is our comforter. They are not the same “person.”

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:10pm

      It is absolutely not my interpretation (I woudn’t be so bold to put myself into that position). I am however selecting scripture to support the position being made. The words of scripture are self attesting meaning they cannot be proved to be God’s words by appealing to a higher authority. If we make that appeal, for example to human logic or science then we assume the thing to which we we apeal to be a higher authority than God’s words and one that is more true or more reliable. Therefore, the ultimate authority by which scripture is shown to be God’s words must be scripture itself.

      For example 2 Tim 3:16 states that “all scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in rightousness”. This would not be my interpretation but rather God’s teaching to which I appeal to. Everything I listed in terms of scripture is not an intrpreation but rather a reading of God’s word. When he says he is (one) and there is no other God.. I believe that to mean there is no other God.

      Report Post »  
    • stone2016
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:17pm

      Explain the “full wrath of God”. Please explain why Jesus is called the Son? Why is God absorbing his own wrath?
      “God the Father sent God the Son to die for our sins” Did he die for our sins or absorb His wrath for sins?

      “Jesus is not a created being but eternally existed as part of the God-head. But to be clear, there is only ONE God.“ Please define the existance of a ”God-head” for only ONE God. Is Christ a distinct individual or not.

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:56pm

      @ P8RIOT

      If they are not the same person, you subscribe to Tritheism which predates 3rd century trinitarians and youwould be worhsiping 3 Gods.. If you worship one God but consider Jesus as the saviour but not God, you attribute your salvation to someone who is not God and the Holy Spirit is just a conduit between God and Jesus (a man).

      Thr term trinity is not mentioned in the bible as mentioned but scripture provides an indication of a plurality of persons in God himself in the opening chapter of the first book of the bible. See previous posting of example scripture:

      For instance, in Genesis 1:26 God said “Let [us] make man in [our] image, after [our] likeness”. and inj Isa 6:8 he says “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Notice the combination of singualr and plural in the same sentence..

      It should be no surprise that God reveals himself immediately in this way. Is God pleased with himself and is god greater than himself..these scriptures you referenced are referring to Jesus incarnate. He was made man to be the substitute for our sins. The convergance of humanity and divinity is as mysterious as the trinity itself. Yet we see scripture attesting to that fact that Jesus’ humanity and divinity are present for example the storm on the see.. the disciples woke Jesus up from his sleep (presumably because he was tired – e.g. his human-ness) and he calms the storm with a spoken word (e.g. his divintiy). No one can explan that beyond what scripture h

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 4:07pm

      @ STONE2016

      The full wrath of God is God’s punishment for our sins. His anger to that which offends his holiness. He absorbed his wrath because only God could save us from our sins.. not a created being, not a special created being. God sent his son to die to atone for our sins of which the penalty was the full wrath of God.

      Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons each equal to the whole being of God. That is all scripture allows us to understand. I‘m simply saying that I am comfortable with the limits of God’s revelation of himself as an infinite all knowing Holy God to a finite mortal self centered sinful, rebelious being such as myself. I would never have the temerity to demand from a Holy God a full explanation of himself as though I deserve to know.

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 5:20pm

      @VZ1 –

      You said “For instance, in Genesis 1:26 God said “Let [us] make man in [our] image, after [our] likeness”. and inj Isa 6:8 he says “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Notice the combination of singualr and plural in the same sentence.”

      I truly don’t know how to show you where you stray from the truth when you quote two scriptures that CLEARLY show a present plurality yet claim that the clear plurality means one person. It is by definition incorrect.

      In Genesis, God was speaking with Christ – thus the plural terms of “us” and “our.“ It is simply an incorrect use of the english language to claim that ”us“ and ”our” mean one person is speaking.

      In Isaiah, it says “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” The singular you reference is the Lord speaking of whom should He send, then notice the key word of ‘AND’… he then transitions from speaking of whom He will send to speaking about who will go before himself and God (“us”)… Its the same terms anyone would use if they were speaking as an agent for a group of people.

      Again, the language of the scriptures are so simple and clear on this issue, its always been a wonder how anyone could misinterpret them.

      I guess this is just another example of why I’m so grateful that God has once again given the earth a living Prophet to be his mouthpiece.

      Amos 3:7 “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 6:22pm

      Again, the plurality of God and yet (one) God will be a mystery despite your claims to simply have it figured out. If God was speaking with Christ then application of the term “us” suggests that God created man in His image (which scripture attests).. but if you belive Christ is not God then you are stating that God and Christ (not God) created man in their image (which nowhere in scripture does it state that). In fact the next verse (27) states that God created man in “HIS” (not their) image. So you have to pick a position.. either God created man in His image or God/Jesus created man in their image. My statement of God being 3 disctinct persons yet one God would support this scripture. Your statement that Christ is not God does’t. Feel free to explain..

      The scond explaination attributes God sending someone for who? God, the angels, the majestic courts.. why would God have to send someone for the angels? GFod sent his Son for him thus the description of “us” again supports my statement of 3 distinct persons yet one God.. your statement wouldn’t make sense since Christ did not come on behalf of the angels. Feel free to explain..

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 7:11pm

      @VZ1

      I’m not sure if your being serious at this point. I’ll break this down to the basics…

      us: used to refer to the speaker and another person or group of people as the indirect object or direct object of a verb

      ours: relating to or belonging to us

      Do you not understand that the words “us” and “ours” are plural phrases? Do you not understand that plural means MORE than one person?

      Now, let me explain how a person can use both plural and singular phrases in a single sentence. When I was in the Marine Corps I’m sure I said something like this to my squad… Who will I (singular) send to go for us (plural) to platoon meeting (compare to your referenced scripture (“Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”)… I can assure you that when I spoke in both singular and plural in the same sentence – that my squad did NOT suddenly morph into a whirlwind and fly into my body.

      You can‘t simply say that you don’t understand how or why God would pray to himself or somehow begat himself… I’ve heard the song “I’m my own grandpa” but this brings it to a new level.

      Jesus Christ was resurrected and has a body of flesh and bone.

      37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

      38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

      39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

      Luke 2

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 9:12pm

      LOL your continued condescending approach in this conversation is amusing. But seriously, I’m just waiting for you to answer the simple question I positioned twice now and for some reason your stuck on definitions of “us” and “ours”. Focus please.. now that we understand what “us” and “ours” means and how its applied in the plural verb format how do you apply it to this scripture Gen 1:26 “let us create man in our image, after our likeness”.. in fact you are adding to my point – the plurality of the verb as it is used here suggests that more than one person was involved in the creation of man. But scripture also says that only God created (man). This is one of the first evidences of the plurality of persons in God himself (one God).

      For the use of plural/singular in the verse Gen 11:7 whom shall I send, who will go for us – why (why) would he have to send his son for others in the heavenly places? He sent his son for himself and only himself because of his grace for the sinful..nowhere does it say he sent his son for God AND angels or majestic courts…. Who in the heavenly places other than God did he send his son for?

      Your example of a squad member (representing) the squad identifies a clear representation of whom the squad member will represent and a purpose. If you think God sent his son for others in heaven who and why did he have to do that.

      I didn‘t say I didn’t understand God in relation to Jesus (the man), I’m saying I unde

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 11:38am

      @VZ1K6W –

      First, your right, I shouldn’t have used such a condescending tone. But in fact, I’ve answered this same questions about 5 times in several posts to you. However, I am happy to answer it again.

      Okay, Gen 1:26 “let us create man in our image, after our likeness” – Again… God speaks in pluralities here because there is MORE than one personage present. “Our” (meaning you AND I) conversation seems to be going in circles here. It is difficult to discuss this logically when you are using the English language incorrectly to fit your interpretation. Do you disagree that when pluralities are used in the English language, it means MORE than one person? Of course you do, but you continue to change the rules in this one instance to fit your interpretation. When investigating ANYTHING, you CANNOT start with a theory then look for facts to try to fit that theory… instead you need to start with the facts, then create a theory based on those facts.

      Okay, here is where I’m surprised I need to help you out (because you’re obviously well versed in scripture). God was not alone when he created the earth. Take a look at Job 38:7 – God asks Job where he was when the foundations of the earth were laid, when the morning stars sang together, and when all the sons of God shouted for joy.

      continued…

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 11:54am

      continued:

      Further, read again Revelation 12:7 – John sees the imminent apostasy of the Church—He also sees the War in Heaven in the beginning when Satan was cast out along with a third of the sons of God which he beguiled—He sees the continuation of that war on earth.

      Finally, read Isaiah 14 where it speaks of how Israel will be gathered and enjoy millennial rest— and Lucifer was cast out of heaven for rebellion—Israel will triumph over Babylon (the world). Focus on how in verse 13 it speaks of how Lucifer wanted to be raised above the sons of God.

      Read these scriptures (as a start) and pray about it. It will become plainly obvious to you that God was not alone in heaven. Also read the scriptures regarding the Godhead again with this new found knowledge that God was not alone in heaven and pray to know if God and Jesus Christ have bodies and are not one God taking several forms at different times. Pray to know if God prays to himself or was able to somehow begat himself.

      Take this new found knowledge and take the next logical step… pray about it.

      Good luck brother/sister! :)

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 12:16pm

      @ P8RIOT

      Thanks again for the feedback but I would humbly say again you are not answering the question.. So let me position it another way because I do think we are talking past each other.. First, I agree (100%) that God was not alone when creation began (and if I led you to believe that was what I was saying let me clear that up now). He was not alone. You position the JOB scripture is nice but it wasn’t at all what I was saying..again I agree God was not alone.

      Tthe difference with what you are saying and I am trying to explain is this… “let us create man” (stop).. The term “us” suggests that more than (1) participated in the creation of man. You said God is talking to Jesus here so that would indicate that God (and) Jesus created man. I cannot say “let us go to the store” but then only I go. So as I apply understanding of the english language “us” means more than one (participating). If you agree with that explanation then you are saying God and Jesus created man but I am saying that no where in scripture does it say that God and someone else created Man.. it says God created man.

      So the question is this – Who created Man? God? or God and Jesus? If the answer you give is God then you have to accept the plurality of disticnt persons in God himself. If the answer is God and Jesus then you contradict what scripture say about the creation of Man.

      Let me stop just on that point alone – your feedback is encouraged.

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 12:49pm

      @VZ1 –

      Thanks for your reply and clarification. To answer your question directly, Jesus Christ created the world under the direction of God. So yes, Jesus Christ alone created it, but God authorized said creation. Does that clear it up?

      Further, as I just posted in reply to the first thread on this page, can you please explain clearly your interpretation of the following from Matthew 3:16-17?

      16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

      17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

      Jesus was standing near the water, the Holy Ghost was descending like a dove, and God was speaking from heaven. Three different personages in three different places all at once.

      This irrefutable evidence of three different personages making up the Godhead requires no “mysteries” to understand.

      So let me ask you directly; do you believe that God divided himself up into three personages all at once in the aforementioned scriptures?

      How can a person be his own son, i.e. how did he begat himself? Why does he pray to himself? Why would even in heaven, he continue to divide himself into several bodies and stand by his own right hand?

      Please elaborate.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 12:54pm

      one clarifying point: This is why I believe Jesus is fully God and fully man. I can satisfy this scripture Gen 1:26 only if Jesus is fully God and fully man but if one believes that Jesus is not God and seperate from God but loved nonetheless, I believe falls short of who God is and makes this one piece of God’s word incorrect (which is not possible) as we know…

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 12:57pm

      @VZ1 –

      I should probably clarify myself a little more. My above posts were in response to your question of “Who in the heavenly places other than God did he send his son for?”

      These stars of God, i.e. Sons of God were you and I before we came to earth. All of us lived with our Father in Heaven before we came here to be tested and to gain a physical body.

      Thus, “Who in the heavenly places other than God did he send his son for?” – answer – all of us.

      Now does my answer make more sense in relation to answering your question?

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 1:05pm

      @ P8RIOT

      I will post a follow up.. I need to break away for a few hours but this is a conversation worth having… I almost wish we had an IM session going… :-) Stay tuned -

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 1:11pm

      @VZ1 –

      As for you other question of “Who created Man? God? or God and Jesus?”

      As my previous answer states, God created all of us before we came to earth as spirit children. Thus, God is literally our Father in Heaven since he created us in Heaven.

      We needed to come to earth to obtain a physical body. God and Christ both have glorified, perfected bodies of flesh and bone. This is another reason why they cannot be the same person, because they have bodies that we were created in the image of.

      This too is irrefutable according to scripture. See Luke 24:37-39.

      37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

      38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

      39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

      It is worthy of note that this was Christ after his resurrection… this is how he is now and this is how he will one day return.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 1:30pm

      I too will need to break away for awhile, but one more thing. Let me explain also why I believe that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct personages. Because several prophets have seen them.

      The Apostle Stephen described it this way in Acts 7:56:

      “And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”

      The Prophet Joseph Smith described it like this in Joseph Smith History 1:1-26:

      “I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me…When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”

      After much study and prayer the Holy Ghost has testified to me that both of these accounts are true. I know that God and Christ have perfected bodies of flesh and bone just as Christ himself described. I know that we were created in the image of our Father in Heaven.

      Our conversation is a PERFECT example of why it is so important that we have a living Prophet and Apostles on the earth today to be a mouthpiece for God to the world. These Prophets and Apostles, just like the Prophets of old and the twelve apostles organized by Christ, can eliminate the contentions and divisions amongst believers just as they did in the past. See 1 Corinthians 11:18.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 7:03pm

      I am back.. so I will post 2-3 responses and hope to clarify why I believe the following:
      1) God is three persons
      2) each person is fully God
      3) There is one God

      Then I will answer your questions as well. But first a few clarifying thoughts.. you and I agree that there are three distinct persons. You asked me to explain Mat 3:16-17 but I happen to agree that is scripture attesting to the three distinct persons of God. If I understand correctly, you and I differ in that I believe they are (one) God with distinct persons and you believe that God the Father is God but God the son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit are not God. You asked me to consider the facts and not come to the table with an intellectual bias so here are my thoughts and scripture to support what I believe to be true according to scripture.

      1) God is three persons: This is where you and I will agree that they are distinct persons. This means that God the Father is not the Son; they are distinct persons. It also means that the Father is not the Holy Spirit (they are distinct persons). These distinctions are seen in a number of passages – John 1:1-2 “In the begining was the word, the word was with God, and the Word was God and Jesus advocates before God 1 John 2:1 a clear indication of Jesus interceding for us before God. Rom 8:27 states the Holy Spirit also intercedes for us. Lastly (and there are more scripture to support this) – John 16:7 Jesus says I must go so that the Holy Spirit can come.

      Next pos

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 7:18pm

      2) Each person is fully God (this is where we part in our understanding of scripture). We agree however that God the Father is fully God so I will move to Jesus Christ being fully God.
      John 1:1 (again) – the Word here is Jesus and affirms his deity “the Word was God”
      John 20:28 is also proof for the deity of Christ “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” Here Thomas speaking to Jesus says he is my Lord and My God. Jesus no where rebuked him saying “hold on!!.. I am not God” John the writer fully accepts what was spoken by Thomas in this passage. Lastly (and again there are more passages) Heb 1 where the author says that Christ is the “exact representation” meaning duplicates the being or nature of God in every way, whatever attributes the Father has the Son also has. Notice v8 “But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.. notice the combination of Son/God.

      Holy Spirit: Several passages coordinate the existence of the Holy Spirit equal with God and Jesus – Mat 28:19 (baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) paraphrased.
      And again in ACTS 5:3-4 – Peter says “why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…? You have not lied to men but to God. Again notice the combination of God and the Holy Spirit. Peter clarifies that the lie was against the Holy Spirit and affirms it at teh end of verse 4 “you have lied to God”.

      Again these are not (3) Gods but one which I will explain in the next posting…

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 7:24pm

      3) There is one God: Scripture is clear and I think you and I agree there is one God but again Deut 6:4 “the Lord is one”..Isa 45:5-6 “I am the Lord and there is no other, besides me there is no God..” and in the New Testament Paul writes in 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” and in James 2:19 even the demons recognize there is one God “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.. but clearly James affirms that one “does well” to believe that “God is one.”

      Final thoughts posting next…

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 7:42pm

      My final thoughts and answers to your questions:

      Did God divide himself up in Mat 3:16-17? No the very essence of God is seen in the Father /Son/Holy Spirit – that is three distinct persons and the Being of Each Person is Equal to teh Whole Being of God.

      How can a person be his own Son, did he begat himself (more on this in a seperate posting), why pray to himself etc. – This is a part of the trinity I cannot explain but accept its mystery (this is not a cop-out) as there are mysteries we can acknowledge as unknown to man but accepted as truth with what we know. Let me explain as I mentioned before. God spoke creation into existance with a word and from nothing. How can God “speak” creation into existence from nothing? I cannot answer that and it is a mystery but accepted as truth because scripture affirms it and (we are in fact here). No one can explain [how] God did this but it is true we exist because he created us with a word. To answer your questions – I dont know how God prays to himself other than scripture attests that God became man to atone for our sins Rom 5:8.

      My response is I cannot explain the Trinity other than what scripture attests (God is three persons, each fully God, there is one God) no more than I can explain the creation of the world spoke into existance other than what scripture attests.

      One more post (I thought I could fit it all in here)…;)

      Report Post »  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 7:59pm

      Final (final) thoughts: If Jesus is not fully God, it is hard to understand how he could bear the full wrath of God on the cross and against our sins. Could any creature (no matter how great) save us?

      If Jesus is not fully God why would we pray to him? That would be idolatry to worship him yet Phil 2:9-11 and Rev 5:12-14 commands us to do just that.

      If I understand your line of questioning – it is hard for you to accept that God can pray to himself or have three distinct persons and still be one God and this is the basis by which you do not accept Trinity doctrine. But you freely accept that God created the world by speaking it into existance out of “nothing”.. of course that doesn’t make sense but that is why God is God and we are not..:-)and it is by faith we accept who he is.

      I refuse to say I am right and you are wrong or visa versa.. but I wil say that we are 2 men longing to worship God. The question to be asked is are we worshiping God as he should be. I choose to give God all the glory not God and some created being. Afterall he is a jealous God Ex 20:5. It is all him and it will always be him to which I will give the praise and glory to – that is God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

      I’ll post a short reference on the term “begat” next but I hope this explains (using scripture) why I believe in the Trinity Doctrine. Lastly, you mentioned we were all in heaven as stars.. I could not find scripture to support that. Can you reference that using scripture?

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 11, 2012 at 8:47pm

      @VZ1K6W – Thanks for the reply. It looks like we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one… but I’ll give you this – NO ONE that I have confronted about the Trinity has put as much effort into explaining it than you have… they usually just say they can’t understand it, but believe it none the less.

      God bless brother! I‘m sure we’ll have more discussions in the future since Santorum just dropped out and Romney (and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) will be under the microscope… Personally, I‘m excited for all the free ’air-time’ to share our beliefs.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • vz1k6w
      Posted on April 12, 2012 at 10:28am

      @P8RIOT

      Same to you brother – I enjoyed the intellectual discussions…

      I did promise to post a follow up on the term “begotton”. The Arians believed (as others do as now) that Christ was “begotten” or brought into existance. The text to support their claim that Christ was “begat – brought into existance by God the Father” included John 1:14, 3:36, 18:1 and 1 John 4:9 to support this claim.

      However their claim was based on the misunderstanding of the Greek word “monogenes” as translated by the KJV as “only begotten” in those same versus I listed above. For many years it was thought that the word was derived from two Greek terms, “mono” meaning “only” and “gennao” meaning “beget”. But linguistic study in the 20th century shows that “gennao” is actually related to “genos” meaning “class” or “kind”. Thus the word actually means “one of a kind” or “unique”. The cross referenced scripture I studied is listed in HEB 11:17 where Isaac is Abraham’s “monogenes” or “only begotten” son….The only problem was Abraham had a son with Hagar named Ishmael so Isaac was not his only son but was his only (unique) son, begotton. So Christ was not brought into existance by God because he is God but rather these texts demonstrate and affirm Christ’s (unique) status as God’s Son.

      God Bless and all who read this great discussion with P8RIOT. It has been a joy -

      Report Post »  
  • kindling
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:10pm

    I know this goes against everything a 5th generation Mormon should believe but I have come to this belief on my own and it makes sense to me. Like Eve and then Adam in the garden, one third of the Spirits in Heaven were beguiled by Lucifer in the pre existence. They were cast down to Earth and Lucifer is the god of this world. The test is to figure out what is true. Jesus, the Christ, was sent by His Father to redeem us from this fallen state and take as many as will believe Him back to Heaven. Most think that third of beguiled Heavenly Spirits are lurking in dark places haunting human dreams or something. I believe it is the mortal people that live here on Earth. I find it hard to believe everyone ever born here are the good ones, the ones that accepted God‘s plan. Why if we chose the right plan were we sent to live in Lucifer’s world? I find it hard to believe we all were cast down to Lucifer’s world because we made a good choice. It is easier to believe most were fooled and a few chose to come with loved ones that were fooled and try to change them one last time. Lucifer spoke; “I will take the spirits that follow me and they shall possess the bodies thou createst for Adam and Eve.“ I cannot think of one person that is not even just a little bit rebellious, if not just plain evil.

    Report Post » kindling  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:24pm

      Not sure Kindling but I think this might be the wrong forum for trying to discuss complex mysteries, I can see how this could become very confusing to non-Mormons and cause a good deal of controversy. Personally I disagree with what you are saying, the things that are confusing to you make sense to me but again I don’t think a public forum that lacks a lot of the background knowledge we take for granted is the proper place to have the discussion.

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:30pm

      @KINDLING – I agree with ELAN114 – this might be something that would take a more in-depth answer than could be typed out in less than 1500 characters. I would strongly suggest you speak to your bishop on this one.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • kindling
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:18pm

      I do not wish to talk anyone into anything……I just question with boldness and hope everyone does especially if they do not believe there is a God. We will all learn the truth one day.

      Report Post » kindling  
    • YAHSHUARULES
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:12pm

      Very telling the remarks from other mormons. Sort of lock step, now don‘t be getting into the secret dogma we don’t want to scare the uninitiated. I find this the most facinating discussion on the Blaze in a long time…very telling how other mormons want you to SHHHSH UP. Take it to a bishop…not here. Well I saw a great grandaughter of B Young and a man who used to be high up in the mormon heirarchy who was asked the question can you be a BIBLE believing Christian and a mormon and he said NO. Because mormons no only have the testament of the bible but of the book of mormon. This is a deception this notion Christians follow a Christ that comes from the Nicene Creed. Fact is that the disciples and apostles had NO new testament. They found the Messiah in the Torah, Writings and Prophets. The whole bible is the story of Yahshua. He is on every page. Don’t read it for the story of Joseph, or Abraham, or David ask the Holy Sprit whose job is to bring all things of YAHSHUA to remeberance, ask HOLY SPIRIT to show you Yahshua through the whole bible including the OT. Satan is always trying to counterfeit the Word. Always saying “Hath God said.”

      Over and over in the old and new testament God Almighty says worshiping a creature any creature is an abomination. Yahshua was the Word made flesh and manifest, everything was made by Him and for Him. He is no creature, but Creator. Our minds can’t grasp and so we want to shrink The Almighty to a place we are comfortable with…

      Report Post » YAHSHUARULES  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:26pm

      @YAHSHUARULES sorry but this is not secret stuff it is just one Brother or Sister speaking their mind about something that I personally did not feel was 100% accurate and I was concerned about it being misconstrued as actual church doctrine. While I can see where Kindling is going with this I don’t think it is the type of can of worms to open when people are already being critical enough of our core/ doctoral beliefs without throwing in speculation of something that to my knowledge has never been taught by any church leader and is no clearly defined or discussed in scripture.
      “Our minds can’t grasp and so we want to shrink The Almighty to a place we are comfortable with” I would agree with that but never the less we as imperfect human beings who do what we can to better understand and then try and grow and expand our understanding to the best of our ability and faith.

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 5:47pm

      @YAHSHUARULES –

      First off, very interesting moniker. However, Yeshua seems to be the more widely accepted translation of the name of Christ.

      As for your averment that we are trying to keep any secrets, it’s hardly a secret to proclaim that Lucifer is a fallen angel and that many followed him in that choice since Lucifer translates to “morning star” or “son of dawn” in Hebrew. Further:

      Isaiah 14:12 -How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”

      Anyhow, I simply had to let you know that you didn’t stumble across any conspiracy theories playing out right here on the Blaze…

      Just go to mormon.org to read all you want about our beliefs rather than relying on unreliable third parties… i.e. hearsay.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 7:26pm

      Stated by YOHANNBIIMU –
      “Over and over in the old and new testament God Almighty says worshiping a creature any creature is an abomination.”

      Stated by YAHSHUARULES –
      “Again and again the Bible says that worship of creation is an abomomination.”

      Stated by VZ1K6W –
      “Can we we really depend on any creature fully for salvation?”

      hmmmm… sounds like we have a troll using several monikers here since all three people are using the same curious terminology (maybe they’re all one person in three different monikers, or are they three different monikers in one person?) lol

      Report Post » P8riot  
  • DarthMims
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:03pm

    I say the egg should be opened from the big end, but my Mormon friend says it should be opened from the little end. Blasphemy! We have no choice but to declare war on the Mormons.

    Report Post » DarthMims  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:09pm

      LOL! that was good.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • Marine25
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:16pm

      At least you are fighting about an egg that actually exists.

      Report Post »  
    • StanO360
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:59pm

      That’s simplistic nonsense! First no one is declaring war on Mormons, but neither should Christians sit by and compromise the very core of Christian beliefs to be in “unity” with Mormons. They are a different religion. Just because Jesus is in their name doesn’t mean they share our beliefs, they don’t think that either!

      English Standard Version (©2001)
      John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

      English Standard Version (©2001)
      John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

      English Standard Version (©2001)
      Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

      This was just about 5 minutes of looking.

      Report Post »  
    • Luv2GoFly
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:33pm

      @Stan0360 – It may come to you as a surprise that the very scriptures you quoted are the same scripture the members of the LDS Church use to bolster their belief that Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

      Report Post » Luv2GoFly  
  • SpeckledPup
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:02pm

    so, let’s get this right…
    this guy ”pastor” Rick Warren decides to go out and start his VERY OWN Jesus Christ worshipping Christian church, which he’s made millions of dollars (off of) from Jesus Christ’s Faithful Christians at it, and he has all sorts of Jesus Christ ~ Christian Religion merchandise he profits from, and so Warren is so undoubtly worthy of talking about WHO is a REAL Christian or not… compared to… HIM ?? talk about money changers in the Temple.

    God bless those faithful Mormons, just one more decent CHRISTIAN church which worships Jesus Christ in America. — sounds like Rick Warren is very jealous of the LDS due to its decent longevity and millions and millions of Faithful in Jesus Christ, if he feels he must cast such sly dispersions upon it..

    Report Post »  
  • jamestoms
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:59am

    No one I have ever met remains true to what they say, if Rick Warren is happy with Obummer he shoud be delighted with Romney!

    Re: The Left
    “One of the highly developed talents of President Barack Obama is the ability to say things that are demonstrably false, and make them sound not only plausible but inspiring. … Now there are different kinds of liars. If we must have lying Presidents of the United States, I prefer that they be like Richard Nixon. You could just look at him and tell that he was lying. But Obama is much smoother. On this and on many other issues, you would have to know what the facts are to know that he is lying. He is obviously counting on the fact that, in this era of dumbed-down education, many people have no clue as to what the facts are. He is also counting on something else — namely, that the pro-Obama media will not expose his lies. One of the many ways of lying smoothly is to simply redefine words. Barack Obama is a master at that as well. … It would be hard to become nostalgic about Richard Nixon, who was forced to resign in disgrace. But at least you could tell when he was lying. Obama’s lies are just as big but not as visible, and the media that exposed Nixon is covering for Obama.” –economist Thomas Sowell

    Report Post »  
  • ChadB
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:54am

    Well said PaleRider54. In order to believe that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers, you must deny that Jesus is God’s only begotten son, referenced in many scriptures, the most well-known being John 3:16.

    Report Post »  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:07pm

      So then YOU are not a child of God? If Christ is the only begotten son period than what are you? I am a child of God but Christ was the only begotten IN THE FLESH meaning the only one to whom God through Mary created a temporal body and who’s creation was beyond that of simple nature. I defer to Christ as my elder brother

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • Doctor Nordo
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 1:37am

      As ELAN114 said, the keyword is “begotten”.

      Report Post » Doctor Nordo  
    • Texas.7
      Posted on April 11, 2012 at 10:53pm

      Elan114,
      Jesus isn’t an older Brother in the ordinary sense.

      Is. 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

      Jesus was all of these. We, being gathered, and built up together as a perfect Bride– of His own flesh, transformed into His likeness, a Bride His own Kind! It would be more accurate to call Jesus “God the Husband”, than a brother. And this union is in the pattern of what we see with Adam and Eve.

      I picture it like this: God already created beings for companionship. But they were separate from Himself, and He wanted something more. (Just as Adam was still lonely with all the animals, until God gave him a companion of His own kind, from His own flesh). The angels, and then Adam and Eve- all external to His very being. Because He knows the future, having created time itself, He knew that sin would occur. It is no accident that we are here.

      Instead of building the heavenly kingdom of merely created beings, God wanted intimacy with us, through joining. He would extend His Garden well beyond Eden, into the hearts and souls of mankind. The fall of mankind, God’s devotion to fallen man, and the mission of Christ are the mysteries that confound the angels. But He clearly explains His purpose and love, which were never deserved, but so cherished!

      Report Post »  
    • Texas.7
      Posted on April 11, 2012 at 10:55pm

      The Tree of Life, shot forth a Branch into the dry and barren land to bring life and nourishment to fallen man. God entered into our space, joining mankind so that mankind could join to Him. Remember, He comes as a Husband, who lays down His life for the Bride.

      In the pattern of the First Adam, Jesus was formed out of clay (fully man), and the personal, present Spirit of God (unlike Adam). Because God exists everywhere, He still existed in Heaven when Jesus walked the Earth. (Just as we supernaturally live in both realms once saved, as the Bible tells us, though can’t see through the veil while in the flesh, we are in the thrown room with Him now! His Spirit within us here, has brought us there with Him- though we don’t often perceive that reality, we will understand it fully later. He is with us, and we are with Him.)

      So, God was in Heaven (the Father), and in flesh (The Son, “who was with God and was God”). In the pattern (though not the likeness) of Adam, Jesus also “slept a deep sleep”. (His sleep being death itself, to bring us life). Not a rib, but the Spirit (Living Water, the Comforter) from Him would form the Bride. God had sent His Word out to Create- just as before. Never returning void, He would return with many more!

      Report Post »  
    • Texas.7
      Posted on April 11, 2012 at 10:56pm

      The Body of Christ is just that. We were formed from His essence (and He is the essence and being of God). The Godhead in One, Father Spirit Son, choosing us to share eternity with Him… Words cannot do that love justice, and the fullness of His merciful and tender act of redemption does not mean that He is not the terrifying God of the OT. He is God the Almighty, who spoke the universe into Creation. And the Father, His Word and His Spirit are One. We, being joined to Him (and joined together as that Bride) will not be God or a god- merely the recipient of His love, His eternal Bride.)

      Report Post »  
  • palerider54
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:44am

    @ELAN114,
    Mormons may be good people, Glen Beck is a great man, but when a Mormon calls their selves Christians the are wrong.
    My Bible tells me that Jesus was with him when he created the heavens and the earth, that THEY made man in THEIR own image.

    Genesis 1, vs. 26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness—etc.
    Our likeness refers to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

    Lucifer and all the other angels were created by God and are not referred to as Gods children.
    If you do not believe in the trinity, you are not a Christian. You may be a very good person, you may do a lot of good works, but you cannot be good enough or do enough good works to gain entry into Heaven.

    Report Post »  
    • SpeckledPup
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:51am

      if you worship JESUS CHRIST, as Mormons do, you are a CHRISTIAN. period.

       
    • Luv2GoFly
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:02pm

      A Christian is one who has accepted Jesus Christ as his/her Savior. By that definition, Mormons qualify as Christians regardless of what various Christian groups claim.

      Just because one adheres to the doctrine of the Trinity does no make one a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes one a car. Take a look at the Westboro Baptists. I am sure they believe in the Trinity and claim to be Christian, however, I would contend that their hateful actions with regards to homosexuals would make them anything but Christian. The doctrine of the Trinity comes from the Nicean and Athenasian Creeds, which came about long after Christ’s ministry on the earth. There are plenty of Biblical references which show that The Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct personages.

      Report Post » Luv2GoFly  
    • jamestoms
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:03pm

      I haven’t spoken to GOD, perhaps you have? But all these comments are soppositions of opinions derived by ones personal understanding, you cannot be a spoke person for everyone believing you have the GOD given word! Don’t judge lest you be judged. Baby Christians here commenting, trying, but have much to learn!

      Report Post »  
    • Crazyotto
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:14pm

      Seriously?
      I doubt you have ever had a real spiritual moment in your life.. therefore you feel the need to resort to a strictly materialistic /nonspiritual / ignorant view of the Bible.. good luck with that… this is the same reason we are having to deal with 7th century throwbacks in the Middle East / Iran.. do you also beat your wife? own slaves? and treat your children like chattle?
      Rick Warren is a typical opportunist (in this case Religion is his medium) he is something to be wary of… as evidenced by his boot licking posture to Obama…

      Report Post » Crazyotto  
    • Busybea007
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:14pm

      Lets see – We have a member of the Mormon Church vs Obama – a member of a “American hating”, “racist” Reverend Wright Church” (for twenty years until the “run for election” in 2008, when it was “outed”) Obama then left that church due to the “fact” that Obama “did not hear the sermons” as he sat in that church for twenty years and was so “shocked” he left it). Can you believe that the majority actually “bought it”??? He promised “HOPE and CHANGE”. Can you believe they “bought” it???
      After 3 1/2 years of Obama “Rule” – WILL THEY “BUY IT” AGAIN????

      Report Post »  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:16pm

      Going to re-post this because I think you failed to see and read it the first time I posted it.
      http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng

      We do believe in the trinity in the context of being “three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission…They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance.“ But as for the ”combined in one substance” find me irrefutable proof of that in the scriptures, because as has been stated that is a concept determine by men hundreds of years after Christ. So ya I guess this means I am a Christian after all because as per your requirement I do believe in the trinity, just not the one determine by the Nicene & Athanasian Creed

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:19pm

      Ironically, the exact scriptures you quote contradict a singular and indicate a plural. Since when did OUR, and US mean a singular person?

      Definitions:

      Us – used to refer to the speaker AND ANOTHER person or group of people as the indirect object or direct object of a verb. (Emphasis added).

      Our – relating to or belonging to us. (See above definition).

      Seriously, think about it, then pray about it.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • FROTHYDISCHARGE
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:30pm

      Christ is God’s gift to the world. You and the evangelicals shall not deny any one to call them selves Christians. Ask yourself what spirit do you have to question one’s faith?

      Report Post » FROTHYDISCHARGE  
    • txjb
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:31pm

      Busybe, the same blacks that voted for him and the stupid whites that voted for him have not learned anything , clueless and will vote for him again .

      Report Post »  
    • txjb
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:53pm

      speck , they do not believe Jesus is the son of God !!

      Report Post »  
    • louie louie
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 4:00pm

      Palerider54 says, “Lucifer and all the other angels were created by God and are not referred to as Gods children.”

      Are you sure about that? What about the following verses in the Bible:

      Isaiah 14:12 – How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
      Job 38:7 – When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

      The first quote refers to Lucifer as a “son”, a son of the morning, or one of the first. If he was not God’s son, whose son was he? Who else was having children in heaven? Or do you believe that this verse is an error in the Bible?

      The second quote refers to “sons of God” shouting for joy at the prospect of coming to Earth when the foundations of the Earth were being laid. So either God does have sons (plural) or the Bible was not translated correctly. Which is it? Where are the Bible references for Lucifer being “a created being”?

      Mormon doctrine does not state explicitly that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. But It is deduced from scriptures like the ones above. Lucifer (light bringer) was a spirit son of God and “one of the princes” who fell as stated in Psalms 82. Lucifer became “Satan” after he rebelled and was cast out of heaven. Because he was disowned by God, he is no longer our brother. He became the father of the wicked. Therefore it is false to say that Mormons believe “Satan” is the brother of Christ. (Even Mormons often miss this important difference between Lucifer and Satan.)

      Report Post »  
  • kindling
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:41am

    I like many friends that are of other faiths have never understood how it can be one being in 3 places at once. I can understand how it can be 3 offices not unlike our own federal government considered one government. Christ is not Jesus’ last name. It is His office. The Holy Ghost is an office. How else could he be in BILLIONS of places at once? The Father in Heaven is OUR Father but He is not the only Father, He is the only one we need to be concerned about. One thing is for sure, we are all free to believe what ever we wish….true or not. One day we ALL will Know what was true all along.

    Report Post » kindling  
    • Busybea007
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:28pm

      I THINK WE OUGHT TO LET GOD “SORT IT OUT”. WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL. THE BIBLE SAYS THAT DURING THE “END-TIMES” THE WHOLE WORLD IS DECEIVED – EXCEPT A CHOSEN FEW. Further, you deal with what you have to deal with. AND REMEMBER – GOD IS IN CONTROL. Only Faith that one day we will all know the COMPLETE truth and the advise of “put your trust in NO man” requires you to look at the “facts” and “pros and cons” of every situation using biblical values to make your decision.

      Report Post »  
    • txjb
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:47pm

      He is not the only Father ??? you need bible study . Here’s something else you need to know by not accepting Jesus as Lord & Savior with faith, you are not saved !

      Report Post »  
  • P8riot
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:37am

    Honestly, as I’ve spoken to people about my faith, many – if not most – of them say they have always believed that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages. I don’t know if it truly is a “sticking point” for everyone that has done their own study of the scriptures. Here’s a starting point.

    God said, Let us make man in our image, Gen. 1:26
    man is become as one of us, to know good and evil, Gen. 3:22
    This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, Matt. 3:17 (Matt. 17:5; 3 Ne. 11:7).
    not mine to give, but … of my Father, Matt. 20:23
    not as I will, but as thou wilt, Matt. 26:39
    baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Matt. 28:19 (3 Ne. 11:25).
    called the Son of the Highest, Luke 1:32
    Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove, Luke 3:22
    Son can do nothing … but what he seeth the Father do, John 5:19
    Father that sent me beareth witness of me, John 8:18
    I and my Father are one, John 10:30
    believe the works … that the Father is in me, John 10:38
    a voice from heaven, saying, I have … glorified it, John 12:28
    my Father is greater than I, John 14:28
    that they might know thee the only true God, John 17:3
    That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, John 17:21 (D&C 35:2).
    I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, John 20:17

    continued:

    Report Post » P8riot  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:43am

      continued:

      being by the right hand of God exalted, Acts 2:33
      saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:55
      not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, Acts 17:29
      even his eternal power and Godhead, Rom. 1:20
      to us there is but one God, 1 Cor. 8:6
      Christ, who is the image of God, 2 Cor. 4:4
      I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord, Eph. 3:14
      image of the invisible God, the firstborn, Col. 1:15
      dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, Col. 2:9
      Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, Heb. 1:2
      three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, 1 Jn. 5:7

      I’M NOT QUOTING THESE SCRIPTURES TO PROVE OTHERS WRONG – I’M SIMPLY QUOTING THEM TO SHOW THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO BELIEVE THAT THE GODHEAD CONSISTS OF THREE SEPARATE PERSONAGES BASED ON BIBLICAL SCRIPTURES.

      I’ve said it before and I will say it again –

      We all need to combine our similar VALUES to bring this great country back on the right path. THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT BY PEOPLE WITH MANY DIFFERENT BELIEFS, YET SIMILAR VALUES.

      God Bless America!

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • StanO360
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:02pm

      Yes, but coming together politcally, and tolerating others beliefs is very different than accepting Mormonism as Christian.

      Report Post »  
  • yohannbiimu
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:28am

    If I have a “sticking point” with Mormonism, it’s that their founding “scripture” (The Book of Mormon) is the most absurd piece of babble and nonsense that’s ever been written (I’ve read it, and NONE of it makes a lick of sense). Anyone with an objective mind investigating it would conclude that it is nothing that one ought to invest any of their life into.

    That said, Mitt Romney’s faith is irrelevant to me, and if Rick Warren had a lick of sense he would have said so too. I’ve heard Mr. Warren say things that are so out of the realm of Biblical truth, that I wouldn’t hesitate to call him heretical too. He‘s the last person I’d count on for the last word on eternal truth.

    Report Post » yohannbiimu  
    • LDSGuy
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:50am

      An 8 year old can read the Book of Mormon and say, “This is easy to understand.” How you got babble and nonsense out of it is beyond me.

      Report Post »  
    • yohannbiimu
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:36pm

      Okay, then explain to me how in the Book of Mormon it “prophesies” that Christ will be born in Jerusalem, when Christ was born in Bethlehem (the City of David). Explain to me how (in the book of Ether) “God” must be tutored by the nameless “brother of Jered” about how to properly build the barge to venture to America. Also, it also tells of domesticated beasts running wild in America (animals that the Spaniards would INTRODUCE to the New World in the 16th century). The book of Mormon is literally FILLED with juicy nuggets of IGNORANCE, written by a man who did not know anything about the history of the colonization of America, and yet you “understand” it? The only bits of truth in the Book of Mormon are the chapters that Smith copied word-for-word (in king James English) out of the KJV Bible (from the book of Isaiah). Maybe you can explain THAT bit of “coincidence.”

      Report Post » yohannbiimu  
    • FROTHYDISCHARGE
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:46pm

      The town of Bethlehem is in the “land of Jerusalem.” In fact, Bethlehem is only 5 miles south of Jerusalem: definitely “in the land,” especially from the perspective of Alma, a continent away. Even locals considered Hebron, twenty five miles from Bethlehem, to be in the “land of Jerusalem.

      Critics have not proven anything in raising this point, except perhaps another literary evidence for the Book of Mormon. While a forger would likely overlook this detail and include Bethlehem as the commonly-understood birthplace of Jesus, the ancient authors of the Book of Mormon use an authentic term to describe the Savior’s birthplace—thereby providing another point of authenticity for the Book of Mormon.
      It is obvious you haven‘t read the Book Of Mormon but rather someone’s third party literature. It so clear by the way you misrepresent the Brother of Jared reference. God was trying to show that we are to figure things out ourselves. Don’t be afraid of the truth.

      Report Post » FROTHYDISCHARGE  
    • yohannbiimu
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:19pm

      Nothing is “obvious” to you, or else you would have had more to answer than the one singular item, which I will happily answer. Micah 5: 1-2 prophesies that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, not “the land of Jerusalem,” which is nonsensical. Jerusalem is a city, not a region. Such an “explanation” is pathetic, because it belies the gross misuse of a term. The book of Mormon is utterly filled with mistakes and is horrendously written (as any decent English grammar tutor could tell you). It exclaims things that, according to all physical evidence, never have happened. It says that steel tools and weapons existed in Judah in 6th century BC, when such implements did not exist. It says that domesticated beasts were already here, over over a thousand years before Spaniards INTRODUCED them to America. I could go on and on, but perhaps these links will save time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Book_of_Mormon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mormon_sacred_texts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms

      Report Post » yohannbiimu  
    • audiemurphy
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:11pm

      what education do you have?
      obviously you have not read the book of Mormon.
      here’s a challenge for you : take an uneducated man in the 1820s with no knowledge of central or south America , Hebrew language , Egyptian language , geography of the area, monetary system, and in less than 5 months write a 530 page book containing all those things and a complete doctrinal teaching of Christs gospel and have it Stand for over two hundred years and effect the life of millions of people on all continents of the earth and in over 100 countries.
      Do all this and then I will believe anything you have to say.
      But first point out all the amazing things that are correct and that have been proven.
      Oh yeah the FBI by their own practices and policies cannot even prove the book of Mormon as a hoax. So try their methods it’s all easy to find and reasearch.
      But who cares what some ignorant biased and obviously someone with an axe to grind against the truth has to say opinions are like butt holes…….. everyone has one!

      Report Post » audiemurphy  
    • bullcrapbuster
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 4:00pm

      @yohannbiimu…Many millions of people all over the world accept the book of Mormon as scripture along with the bible. Of course they do not make their living preaching hate against other faiths like many evangelical preachers do. Thirty five years ago I prayerfully read and studied the book of mormon. I recieved an answer from God by the holy ghost that the book of mormon is truly his word. Unbelievers do the same hatchet job on the bible as you try to do on the book of mormon. Do you really want to be identified with them? I testify to you,without any reservation, in the name of Jesus Christ that the book of mormon,like the bible is the word of God.

      Report Post » bullcrapbuster  
    • louie louie
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 5:08pm

      Jeremiah 34:1 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord, when Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and all his army, and all the kingdoms of the earth of his dominion, and all the people, fought against Jerusalem, and against all the cities thereof…

      Please explain why the Bible refers to “cities” associated with Jerusalem. Is it not possible that there was a “land of Jerusalem” as well as a city of Jerusalem at this time period, just as there is a State of New York and a City of New York today? There are references in the Amarna letters and the Lachish letters to land and towns around a major city in Judea being called after the name of the city. In that context it makes perfect sense that the Book of Mormon would refer to Jesus as being born “at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers”. The reference is to a “land” not a city.

      Report Post »  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 7:28pm

      Stated by YOHANNBIIMU –
      “Over and over in the old and new testament God Almighty says worshiping a creature any creature is an abomination.”

      Stated by YAHSHUARULES –
      “Again and again the Bible says that worship of creation is an abomomination.”

      Stated by VZ1K6W –
      “Can we we really depend on any creature fully for salvation?”

      hmmmm… sounds like we have a troll using several monikers here since all three people are using the same curious terminology (maybe they’re all one person in three different monikers, or are they three different monikers in one person?)

      curious.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • Doctor Nordo
      Posted on April 10, 2012 at 1:56am

      @YAHANNBIIMU

      As quoted by BYU professor Daniel C. Peterson, this provides a pretty clear rebuttal:

      To suggest that Joseph Smith knew the precise location of Jesus’ baptism by John (”in Bethabara, beyond Jordan” (1 Ne. 10:9) but hadn‘t a clue about the famous town of Christ’s birth is so improbable as to be ludicrous. Do the skeptics seriously mean to suggest that the Book of Mormon’s Bible-drenched author (or authors) missed one of the most obvious facts about the most popular story in the Bible — something known to every child and Christmas caroler? Do they intend to say that a clever fraud who could write a book displaying so wide an array of subtly authentic Near Eastern and biblical cultural and literary traits as the Book of Mormon does was nonetheless so stupid as to claim, before a Bible-reading public, that Jesus was born in the city of Jerusalem? As one anti-Mormon author has pointed out, “Every schoolboy and schoolgirl knows Christ was born in Bethlehem.” Exactly! It is virtually certain, therefore, that Alma 7:10 was foreign to Joseph Smith’s preconceptions. “The land of Jerusalem” is not the sort of thing the Prophet would likely have invented, precisely for the same reason it bothers uninformed critics of the Book of Mormon

      Report Post » Doctor Nordo  
  • Ghandi was a Republican
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:16am

    Father, Son and Holy Spirit.. Think genetics. We do 3 in 1 all the time in the lab and have been for years. Even the atheists have to admit they sound pretty ‘flat Earthish’ questioning everything biblical. The more science we get, the less mysterious the bible becomes.

    Report Post » Ghandi was a Republican  
    • iampraying4u
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:30am

      rick warren is a sticking point

      Report Post »  
    • yohannbiimu
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:48am

      I agree, iampraying4u. Warren is the media’s “Christian” darling, and the media doesn‘t have ANYONE’S best wishes at heart. They only want to create chaos and confusion.

      Report Post » yohannbiimu  
    • Marine25
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:19pm

      Science will kill this god just like it has killed thousands of others. It’s why Christians and Muslims have such a problem with science.

      Report Post »  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:10pm

      @Marine25. As a Christian, LDS to be exact, I have no problem with science, rather I think science has a problem with me because I see all that God has done and the natural patterns He has put in place and understand that humans keep discovering these things. The issue however is that I continue to be humbled by the complexity of what God has created while science keeps trying to find the root cause and claim that they have found the end all and be all of existence and how it took no intelligence to create it. As one example I have no problem with the big bang theory, great idea, that would explain how God put forth all the material need to create the universe, works for me the issue comes when I ask the question “what was before the big bang?” Scientist really seem to hate it when I ask that question.

      Report Post » ELAN114  
  • audiemurphy
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:14am

    The scriptures are clear that the father son and holy ghost are 1 In purpose!
    A clear understanding on the scriptures revealed truth of our pre- mortal existence, the appearance of the father and the son , and even Christ last words on the cross attest to the FACT they are 3 separate beings. God is not the God of confusion.
    Did the father hang on the cross and speak to himself “ my god why has thou forsaken me”?
    Did the son take the form of a dove as he was baptized and become the holy ghost too.
    What about the mount of transfiguration?
    How about thinking outside the nicean creed box of 325AD and the roman emperors man made explanation of god. The doctrine and understanding pre Roman Catholic was not trinity.
    Understanding who god is and what he offers has been misconstrued because of the man mad doctrine of the trinity. Christ is the first born of all of the fathers childeren who are created with spiritual bodies . We came to earth to obtain a physical body learn to control it and ourselves.
    Christ created this earth for our mortal test to take place under the direction of the father. He also volunteered to be the saviour who would do all the fathers will and sacrifice his mortal life willingly so that thru his atonement we could both be ressurected and exalted thru faith on him and obedience to th laws of his father . All mankind fall short and Christ takes from us our sins thru repentance and faith in him.

    Report Post » audiemurphy  
  • SpeckledPup
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 10:59am

    we are so sick of this infighting in American Christianity. who is better, who worships Jesus better, who is more $uccessful too……

    we would join “Bob’s Grill and Church” if it preached without a doubt ”Jesus Christ is Lord & Savior”.

    —- no one is ranting about all the church branches who successfully sprang off the Original Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ– which is the Holy Roman Catholic Church… like the Anglicans, the Lutherans, the Baptists, Methodists, Episcopals, etc.. …

    who are we mere mortals to say that Mormons are any different than ANY OTHER church that worships Jesus Christ. ~~~~~ so God bless the Jesus Christ-worshipping Mormons, TOO. ~~~~ and we will sure as helluva vote for one.

    Report Post »  
    • yohannbiimu
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:22pm

      Here we go to the “sticking point” again. IF Christ is God’s creation, then he CANNOT be our savior, and is NOT to be worshiped. Again and again the Bible says that worship of creation is an abomomination. How can he be “Almighty God, Everlasting Father” AND a created being at the same time? In the Book of John, he begins by saying, In the beginning was the Word, the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God.” It is referring to Christ himself. Now, who are you going to believe? The teachings of scripture for millennia, or the abominations of an 19th century heretic?

      Report Post » yohannbiimu  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 6:10pm

      @YOHANNBIIMU – you’ve got some pretty funny circular logic going on there. You can’t just say things and claim its fact. You stated “Again and again the Bible says that worship of creation is an abomomination.” Of course the scriptures warn against worshiping idols, but where does it say that worshiping anything created is an abomination??? Citations please.

      Secondly, then you say “How can he be “Almighty God, Everlasting Father” AND a created being at the same time?” That is funny because you are castigating your own beliefs without even knowing it. We are the ones saying that God and Christ are not the same being at the same time – you are… do you deny that Christ is the only begotten Son of God? If a son, then created right?

      Finally, your final example is also laughable because you once again contradict yourself. Your scripture clearly says that Christ AND God were present at the creation of the earth. Here’s a little english lesson – if two personages are spoken of, then there is more than one personage present. Make sense? Further, your scripture only proves what we already believe – that God and Christ are two separate personages and Christ is the God of the Old Testament.

      Thanks for making the case against your third-century, creed-based, trinitarian beliefs.

      Report Post » P8riot  
  • HorseCrazy
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 10:59am

    My Bible says, by their fruits you will know them and every mormon friend or coworker I have ever had is a Christian just like me. Their love for Christ is the first thing that shines through. I do believe it is quite foolish to have believers try and see if others are “christian enough” and argue amongst themselves and tear eachother apart (which is coming when romney gets the nomination)

    Report Post »  
    • StanO360
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:07pm

      You can’t just take a scripture in isolation of the rest of the Bible! We are not saved by our Fruits, we are saved by the redemption of Christ, as we just celebrated this Good Friday and on Easter. Are you proposing that one group that believes Jesus is the brother of Satan, and is the physical seed of God is the same as believing in the Trinity and Jesus as the Creator, the “I AM”?

      Report Post »  
  • Chromo200
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 10:54am

    I’d rather take a change on Romney that vote for Obama. I know that Obama is for sure attacking Christianity and supporting islam to get a big foot hold in the USA.. At least Romney has not made a big deal about his religion. I’d rather see someone else than Romney as the nominee, but I have settled to any one but Obama.

    Report Post »  
  • Gonzo
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 10:37am

    Well said Rick Warren. That is indeed the sticking point. That being said, every Mormon I have known has been a fine and decent person and I would not hesitate to vote for one.

    Report Post » Gonzo  
    • Athinkerinaseaoflibs
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 10:58am

      Gonzo; Thanks for the kind thoughts. As a Latter day Saint myself, I wish that “every Mormon” would hold but give me a bit of wiggle room and just say” most”. One that comes to mind is ole’ Harry Reid, never actually met him but I cringe every time I hear him speak.

      Report Post »  
    • Gonzo
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:04pm

      Thinker: I said “every Mormon I have known” and I stand by that. I don’t know Harry Reid from Adam.

      Report Post » Gonzo  
    • Athinkerinaseaoflibs
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:23pm

      Understand. I am very concerned about the way people perceive us. Right now Mormons are under a magnifying glass with the Romney thing and all. Unfortunately, even if everything is perfect as it could be, you always have to worry the magnifying glass catching the sun and burning the specimen.

      Report Post »  
  • grudgywoof
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 10:35am

    This is an important part of our doctrine that Southern Baptist Believe and the 3 in 1 (Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost). Also Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers like Cain and Able which is contrary to our doctrine. I don’t hold any of this against Mormons however if they call themselves Christian I find fault in it. They are Mormons and their doctrine was writen by Joseph Smith and his book of Mormon and an “edited” new and old testiment. He is a profit and in my opinion a false one. The word of God “new and old testiments” are inspired by the Father not an earthly man. It’s a big deal to most of us.

    Report Post » grudgywoof  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 10:49am

      Just a question, if Christ is the Son of God existing as a separate physical being though united in one purpose as we Mormons believe, and if God created all things that means he create you, me and Lucifer. Now that seems to me to say that we are ALL brothers and sisters and that sadly Lucifer being one of Gods creations is also his son and our brother. How does Satan being our brother and Christ’s brother detract from Christ and His divine mission? Having converted to Mormonism this has helped me to understand just how great Christ was in His desire to follow His Fathers plan and how dangerous Satan is not only because of his ability to deceive but because as my brother he knows me well enough to be that much more dangerous.
      And now you can make the statement that as a Mormon I have been deceived by Satan already yada yada thank you.

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • iampraying4u
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:33am

      amen

      Report Post »  
  • FROTHYDISCHARGE
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 10:34am

    From the Mormon 11th Article of Faith.
    “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

    Too bad most evangelicals don’t have the same respect. So just because someone has a different take on the Godhead he is unfit for office? You’re no better than the Taliban.

    Report Post » FROTHYDISCHARGE  
    • iampraying4u
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 11:55am

      At least the mormons try harder they are the second best man made relegion in the world The roman cathiloc is the best

      Report Post »  
    • mcsledge
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:54pm

      iampraying4u – Thank you for your kind words, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Church of Jesus Christ.

      Christ called a living Prophet to guide His Church.
      Christ reestablished divine revelation (additional scripture)
      Christ restored Prophets, Apostles, Pastors, Teachers, etc.
      Christ restored the Priesthood keys through Peter, James, John and John the Baptist
      Christ restored the sealing authority including the keys of turning the hearts of fathers to children and children to fathers (Malachi) through Elijah the Prophet
      Christ restored the keys to the ‘Gathering of Israel’ through Moses

      Church of Mormon? No. Church of the Baptist? No. Church of Moses? No. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yes!

      Report Post » mcsledge  
  • ELAN114
    Posted on April 9, 2012 at 10:30am

    Before the bashing of Mormons as non-Christian commences read this
    http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng

    Particularly where Elder Holland points out that
    “Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].” 3 ”

    And also our First article of faith is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”

    Report Post » ELAN114  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 12:27pm

      Unfortunately, the people who misunderstand our beliefs don’t want to go to the source to find out the truth. It would be like reading the writings of Hitler to understand the truth about the Jews – doesn’t make much sense.

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • yohannbiimu
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:05pm

      Jesus Christ IS GOD. He was not created, which Mormon’s believe. Creation is either corruptible or corrupted, hence, if something either is or CAN be corrupted, it cannot eternally redeem creation. Jesus said that he and the Father are ONE, which is contrary to Joseph Smith’s teachings. Why do you place ALL of your faith based upon the words of ONE man, whose testimony contradicts the apostles and prophets in the Bible, whose word is completely alien to ANY faith and practices that preceded it? If Smith’s version of “the truth” is correct, then why did God wait so many centuries before he presented it, all the while, allowing mankind to wallow in complete ignorance? What sort of “god” would do that?

      Report Post » yohannbiimu  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 1:37pm

      @YOHANNBIIMU, One I don‘t have enough space to try and explain this to you when it is pretty obvious you don’t really want to try, you just don’t come across as someone that wants a discussion, sorry. But two “why did God wait so many centuries … all the while, allowing mankind to wallow in complete ignorance?” based on this why didn’t Adam fall and then Christ come the next day to atone for it, why hasn’t Christ shown up once a year every year to correct mans misconceptions from the previous 12 months? This sound like the atheist argument of because there is suffering there can be no loving God, your argument is because it took so long for God to reveal it must be false. I guess you know God’s timeline better and therefore any correction given from what 500 AD forward must be false because it took too long to get to us?

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • yohannbiimu
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:01pm

      You won‘t explain any of it because YOU CAN’T. The Mormon believes in the worship of a created “Christ,” and time and again scripture says that the worship of the created is an abomination. Christ, to you, is temporal, when scripture says that he is “Almighty God, Everlasting Father.” Also, your attempts to draw me away from real issues with Mormonism cannot cover your naked cowardice in discussing what goes on in Mormonism. The Book of Mormon has been thoroughly examined for decades, and it’s been thoroughly debunked. It’s not even the same words that Smith published originally in 1830. It’s been revised numerous times, and some of these revisions were significant. I CAN debate with you, but you are incapable of approaching me in the same manner that I can with you, because you do not have any understanding whatsoever in what’s eternal. There is no clear, defined notion of eternity in Mormonism, because everything to Joseph Smith was based upon physical reproductive terms. If I “misunderstand” you, it is because I do not hold to that which is eternal in the temporal terms that Smith held. Smith taught to worship the created, as ALL “Gods” are, so you can be. Biblically, that teaching is an abomination, and I’m sticking to the scriptures of the apostles and prophets, rather than a singular 19th century shyster. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Book_of_Mormon

      Report Post » yohannbiimu  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 2:22pm

      “Creation is either corruptible or corrupted, hence, if something either is or CAN be corrupted, it cannot eternally redeem creation.” What? So God is incapable of creating something that can withstand corruption? He is God I find your logic hard to swallow. Second Christ is the only begotten of the Father so how can He be begotten if he already existed? Again he is the Son of God, son being someone that came forth from the Father.
      I don’t place my Faith upon one man, I place it upon all the prophets and apostles of old, of many witnesses both in Christ’s time up to the present, I place it in all scriptures and most importantly I hold to my belief based on personal study and prayer. I battled the Mormon’s for years, and believe me they were plenty shocked when I turned to them one day and said I wanted to join them. I woke up one day knowing that it WAS true and that all my fighting had been because of my stubbornness, accepting that did not make life easier, rather it holds me to a higher standard. Now 15 years later I will still testify that it is true.
      “Jesus said that he and the Father are ONE” Did you even try and read the link I posted? Smith would not argue that they are not one only that they are not ”combined in one substance” but rather “are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission…They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable”.

      Now can you please answer how you know Gods time frame and reasoning so well?

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • StanO360
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:19pm

      So then is Satan part of God too, as Jesus’ brother? If not, how did Jesus become part of the “Trinity”?

      We still haven’t addressed the Book of Mormon, end times doctrines, church practices etc. But, I will go back to what I said earlier. I have never met a Mormon that expresses any unity with Mainline Christianity, it is purely a one-way street. No one has come to my door and then left because I was a Christian.

      Report Post »  
    • yohannbiimu
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:31pm

      If God created someone incapable of corruption, then they would be robots. God didn’t make robots, he made people with wills to choose, whether to simply obey one rule or to rebel, and Adam rebelled (the Bible says that he was with Eve when she was tempted, and he did NOTHING to stop her from eating the fruit, and then he agreed to eat it himself). Even angels rebelled, led by Lucifer, and they were damned for eternity. Now, I do not pretend to know God’s reasoning behind our redemption, otherwise I could tell you why it had to be the shedding of blood by which it could come. God alone truly knows why. What is known is that the blood of lambs and other animals were sacrificed for the remission of sins, until the perfect (incorruptible) sacrifice (Jesus) gave himself for our redemption. The Bible says numerous times that Jesus is God, so I do not know why you argue this point, all the while hold that you agree with the Bible (when you obviously do not). Regarding this “time frame,” I find it very odd that you would believe that Christ would come to Earth in order to establish his church, to die for the remission of our sins, and yet, that God would be content to leave humanity in confusion and darkness for almost 1800 years until Joe Smith came along. 2 Peter 3:9 says: “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

      Report Post » yohannbiimu  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:41pm

      Sorry Stan this gets difficult in a 1500 word reply situation, I really prefer face to face. As to being ‘part’ of God Satan was as much a part of God as you or I am. Christ was the first born and the one chosen to be our Savior He is our elder brother and we defer to Him. Christ is the God of the old testament he is the one that created the earth under the direction of His Father. Now I am trying to condense here because there are entire discussions that could occur around each of these points. I suppose Christ becomes part of the trinity when He agreed to follow the Fathers plan for our salvation and thus they “are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission”. Satan on the other hand had a plan of his own which took the glory from the Father and therefore his plan was rejected and he then rebelled.
      Sorry I did not grow up in the Mormon church but I always believed Christ and Satan were brothers because they are both from the Father, no one could ever convince me otherwise, I couldn’t even convince myself otherwise no matter what I read or how I prayed, so I have a hard time seeing the difficulty here. One is the rebellious brother that wants you to share in his rebellion and who knew you before your birth making him that much more real and dangerous. The other is the loving brother that would lay down his life for you. Does having a bad brother decrease the level of goodness in the righteous brother?

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 3:54pm

      @ Stan the reason we don’t just leave your doorstep because you are Christian is because we believe that God has revealed to us many things that have been lost such as proper baptism, the proper line of priesthood authority, everything that goes on in temples and much more. We do not question that you are a Christian we are actually quite excited by that fact because it means you have already accepted Christ and therefore we can go straight to sharing with you the extra knowledge and blessings rather then trying to convince you that Christ even existed. My question for people is “are you Positive you have all the truth that God has revealed, every bit available to mankind?” If the answer is no, or that man can’t know it all then my next question is “Have you given up looking?” For me the LDS church has the answer to what God has revealed and will be the means by which He will reveal things as we can handle them or as this world draws to a close and we need to prepare. This is why we don’t just walk away from fellow Christians, because we love you too much to not share ALL of it with you.

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • ELAN114
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 4:06pm

      “The Bible says numerous times that Jesus is God” Ok maybe this will help Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. What does that mean? It means that Jesus created the Earth, that when prophets of the OT were talking to God they were talking to Christ, and so God did sacrifice Himself on our behalf, I think everyone here will agree that this sounds correct. The place where the LDS view suddenly seems to throw people is that we take a step back and see that what Jesus the God of all we know created and has dominion over was done at the direction of God the Father who chose Jesus to carry out the plan for mans salvation and perfection. So basically anywhere it refers to God in the OT interpret as Jesus, but once Christ is on the earth, NT, His references to God were talking about the Father not himself, because if you look at a lot of these posts you can see many verses where,if they are “combined in one substance”, then Christ did a lot of talking to Himself which seems a little odd. Why ask in the garden if there is another way or ask why you have forsaken yourself? But they are good questions for a son who is doing his fathers will to ask IMHO.

      Report Post » ELAN114  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 6:28pm

      @Yohann – Seriously, I don’t know how ELAN114 has put up with your arguments this long. You make multiple averments without a single scripture to back up what you say and then try to continued based on that faulty premise in your argument… its called circular reasoning.

      Start citing sources if you want to have an intelligent conversation. Stating things like “worshiping any creation is an abomination” is a perfect example of stating things without citations. Of course its said that worshiping idols, etc. is an abomination, but the Bible NEVER states that worshiping “any creation” is an abomination.

      As for your averment that Christ CHOSE not to sin would make him a “robot” is completely backwards. He had the choice and chose to follow the Father, meaning he had agency, or the right to choose. In fact, your definition of Him is what would make him a “robot”… if he was incorruptable by nature, then he literally COULD NOT choose to be corrupted – thus making him a “robot.”

      Here are a few “citations”

      was Jesus led … to be tempted of the devil, Matt. 4:1
      Thou shalt not tempt the Lord, Matt. 4:7 (Deut. 6:16).
      they which have continued with me in my temptations, Luke 22:28
      he himself hath suffered being tempted, Heb. 2:18
      was in all points tempted like as we are, Heb. 4:15
      learned he obedience by the things which he suffered, Heb. 5:8

      Enough opinions – use some facts.

      …

      Report Post » P8riot  
    • P8riot
      Posted on April 9, 2012 at 6:32pm

      @YOHANNBIIMU

      Oh yeah, as for your ignorance on the apostasy of the early christian church, here’s a couple “citations”…

      changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant, Isa. 24:5
      this people draw near me with their mouth, Isa. 29:13
      darkness shall cover the earth, Isa. 60:2
      a famine … of hearing the words of the Lord, Amos 8:11
      his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, Matt. 13:25
      saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many, Matt. 24:5
      shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, Matt. 24:24
      his disciples went back, and walked no more with him, John 6:66
      shall grievous wolves enter in among you, Acts 20:29
      there be divisions among you, 1 Cor. 11:18
      I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him, Gal. 1:6
      who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey, Gal. 3:1
      shall not come, except there come a falling away first, 2 Thes. 2:3
      some having swerved have turned aside, 1 Tim. 1:6
      giving heed to seducing spirits, 1 Tim. 4:1
      all they which are in Asia be turned away from me, 2 Tim. 1:15
      Who concerning the truth have erred, 2 Tim. 2:18
      Having a form of godliness, but denying the power, 2 Tim. 3:5
      turn away their ears from the truth … unto fables, 2 Tim. 4:4
      profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, Titus 1:16
      From whence come wars and fightings among you, James 4:1
      false prophets also among the people, 2 Pet. 2:1
      being led away with the error of the wicked, 2 Pet. 3:17

      and that’s just a start in case you want more

      Report Post » P8riot  
1 2 3

Sign In To Post Comments! Sign In

Sign Up For Our Newsletter!

Glenn Beck Radio

Listen to Glenn Beck 24/7 Listen Now
Restoring Love