Faith

Pastors Unite Against IRS Tax Code Restrictions on Political Speech in the Pulpit

Pastors Unite Against IRS Johnson Amendment on Political Speech at PulpitAre American pastors free to share their political views from the pulpit? The answer to this question is complex. While some issues can certainly be discussed, there are also government-sanctioned limitations on partisan preaching (especially if churches expect to keep their tax-exempt status).

A regulation added to the IRS code back in 1954 has muddied the waters for pastors, creating a scenario in which some leaders are too fearful of federal consequences to exercise their right to free speech from the pulpit.

With pastors unsure of just how far they can take their partisan comments about specific candidates, some religious leaders find themselves purposefully avoiding the subject — a result that has potentially led to a decline in church education on issues of great social and political importance.

As faith influences an individual’s take on social and political issues, one wonders why religious leaders face restrictions on speech that is so intertwined with personal religious beliefs.

The fear and uncertainty that some faith leaders experience is driven by the aforementioned ban on political campaign activity that was instituted on both charities and churches, alike, nearly 60 years ago. It was back in 1954 that Congress approved of what has become known as the “Johnson Amendment.” The provision, which still stands today, explicitly prohibits 501(c)(3) organizations (churches and charities) from engaging in campaign activity.

Rather than declining in prevalence over time, this regulation has been strengthened. The last change was made to it back in 1987, when the amendment’s language was tightened to clarify that the restrictions should also cover statements and stances that stand against candidates (previously it was interpreted to only stand for statements that supported specific candidates). The IRS describes a 501(c)(3) as a group:

“which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.”

Since religious leaders — be they liberal or conservative — are legally restricted in recommending or railing against specific political candidates, silence, for some, has likely been the response. This has created an environment under which some leaders feel that they cannot remain true to their personal beliefs and convictions.

The Speak Up campaign (launched by the Alliance Defense Fund) addresses this important issue, while working to “protect and promote” the rights of American churches. In addition to making faith leaders aware of their constitutional right to free speech, the movement encourages pastors to stop self-censoring and to start making their political voices heard.

Below, see a trailer that comprehensively explains Speak Up in some pastors’ own words:

To combat these restrictions, which critics believe severely impede the free speech of pastors and faith leaders, alike, the ADF also launched the Pulpit Initiative and Pulpit Freedom Sunday back in 2008. The project, designed to restore pastors’ rights to speak openly about any and all issues addressed in the Bible, described the historical restrictions on faith leaders as follows:

Historically, churches have emphatically, and with great passion, spoken Scriptural truth from the pulpit about government and culture. Historians have stated that America owes its independence in great degree to the moral force of the pulpit. [...]

All that changed in 1954 with the passage of the “Johnson amendment” which restricted the right of churches and pastors to speak Scriptural truth about candidates for office.

The Pulpit Initiative is urging pastors to come together to challenge this free speech-altering restriction. And proponents of the movement aren’t shy. While they don’t want to turn churches into political mechanisms, they do want to see the Johnson Amendment declared unconstitutional. In their view, the IRS should have no right to censor what a pastor preaches about, be it political or not. The Speak Up web site has more:

ADF is actively seeking to represent churches or pastors who are under investigation by the IRS for violating the Johnson Amendment by preaching biblical Truth in a way that expresses support for – or opposition to – political candidates. ADF represents all of its clients free of charge.

But in addition to legal help, pastors can also join in on Pulpit Freedom Sunday, an annual event the coalition has launched to encourage pastors to preach sermons that to examine candidates’ stances. Aside from exploring candidate opinion, churches are encouraged to look at what Scripture says about each issue. Then, they will make specific recommendations about whether or not the congregation should vote for or against specific candidates.

Following the event, each pastor lets the IRS know about his or her sermon. The hope is that making the government aware of the code violation will spark an audit. Then, the constitutionality of the Johnson Amendment can be hashed out once and for all.

In 2008, only 33 pastors participated; this expanded to 80 faith leaders in 2009 and then nearly 100 in 2010. With the movement rapidly growing, even more leaders are poised to take part in this year’s Pulpit Freedom Sunday on October 2, 2011.

Below, watch Pastor Jim Garlow from Skyline Church in La Mesa, California, discuss the movement with Glenn Beck:

For more information on the Speak Up movement and Pulpit Freedom Sunday or to get your church involved click here.

Comments (351)

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  • batdawg
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:38am

    The churches are corrupt. they signed up to be 501c3′s to avoid paying taxes and now they are effectively agents of the state told what they can preach or else the state will yank their tax free license. Didnt Jesus tell Peter to pay the tax? Wasnt there a fish with a gold piece in his mouth ….or am I reading a different bible than you 501c3 pastor?

    Report Post »  
    • StonyBurk
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:54am

      you are right to a point> but the problem is _ if you read the political sermons of the founding era 1730-1805 2 vol.Ellis Sandoz editor liberty fund 2nd edition 1998 you will find a vast difference in what Pastors were allowed to preach . I f you read the letter First Chief Justice John Jay wrote to Rev. Jedediah Morse, 1 Jan.1813 P.351353 The Life of John Jay you will see his opinion that Pastors Not only have a right ,but the duty to press the observance of all moral and religious duties,and to animadvert on every course of conduct which may be repugnant to them.” And if you check American history prior to the establishment of the 501C3 status the church was NOT taxed–but given the same status as public schools- or Government Offices. IMO if we are to fault Pastors for wanting to maintain 501C3 status –then we ought apply the same restrictions on EVERY group now claiming that status– and I can assure you this has not been even attempted.

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    • smackdown33
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:02am

      The law was passed for the specific purpose of limiting, controlling, free speech. These laws are how a minority controls a majority. Their descendents are ‘Hate speech’ and ‘Hate crimes’ legislation. It’s all about control.

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    • Duddio
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:14am

      It doesn’t matter if you sign up for it or not, churches and pastors are still under the threat of prosecution and taxation. There is no compunction in the IRS code that forces a church to apply for 501c3 status, churches are considered tax-free by definition. However, if the government doesn’t like what you preach, they can use the weight of that same tax code to penalize and fine a church retroactively. Taxes are a means to control or destroy and this unconstitutional restriction on churches and church leaders needs to be abolished.

      Clergy and churches were tax-free in America for 200 years before the Revolution, and have always been tax-free as long as America has existed. It is part of what has made our nation so great, the free expression of morals and righteousness without government restriction.

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    • ashestoashes
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:43am

      I find this all very amusing in light of the fact that this governmental administration is ,did, and does use ttheri totally liberal community organizations to teach, train and fund these liberal community organizers to go out and gather, council, deceive, bribe, and transport voters for their cause., all on our tax dime.

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    • MHP
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:45am

      Johnson amendment put in by liberals and communists is nothing but hate speech from the left.

      Pastors are gonna preach politics from the pulpit any time they want, and the government can go to hell. No matter who disapproves.

      Report Post » MHP  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:50am

      In addition to, remember the president’s pastor Jeremiah Wright? He used /uses his pulpit it would seem as for what we could tell…for spewing pro-muslim, anti American hate speech.

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    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:57am

      This is what happens when State and Church are combined, one submits to the other. The Churches have been bribed, 501c status, to do as they are told and the Churches have submitted. How can a Church be of God if it takes a bribe to not preach Truth? 

      Churches should not pay the tax, preach what they want and tell the Government to get lost and mind it’s own business. 

      The Church is a sovereign entity all on it‘s own from Government just as Government is a sovereign entity all on it’s own from the Church. 

      “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” The Constitution prevents Government from using it’s power to control Churches. Tax is a control and if not paid can lead to Churches being shut down. The Government therefore controls the Church. If you do not preach what is wanted Government can shut the Church down or raise taxes so high (penalties) the Church shuts down. 

      This is the separation spoken of by Jefferson, two separate sovereign entities, where one is not submissive to the other. It is shameful Churches now do as they are told and submit to Government. Sad, very sad, Government takes religious money to use how it desires. Religious are taxed extra……Tell your Church leader to not pay the tax, it’s unconstitutional! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • MHP
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:59am

      Isreal and the arabs will soon make peace. Not much time to get ready for the rapture before then.
      Put your faith in God or you will be deceived.
      2 Thess
      Dan. 9:27

      1 Thess 4:14-18; 5

      Report Post » MHP  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:56am

      Hey Okie..Greetings my friend..I had just thought of something else before heading out this morning.
      I am wondering if Mosques are tax exempt? I am sure that they are not prohibited from espousing their own theocracy which is to kill the infidel and to take over the world forcing Sharia Law on everyone. Great to see you on here. Hope to catch up with you later! Stay safe..Blessings

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    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:03am

      For one, who created the 501c3? The church or the State? 2nd, A Church has from the beginning been operating as a charity and then the State starting looking for ways to tax the givings of other who had been taxed already prior to giving their own legal tender to the church. The state should stay out of the church and not have any requirements whatsoever on the organization as long as it is not breaking in laws. Tax free my but, the State made this a requirement to control them from speaking against it. The church has a right under the constitution of free speech to be able to say what it wishes either publicly or within its walls. Now we are having a debate about free speech within its walls because they have a 501? See the rationale here, its all BS.

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
    • Z0LTAN13
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:26am

      My only problem is that most of these churches run like a business. The pastors have higher salaries than many ceo’s. I think they should be able to say what they want, but, I don’t think the mega church that makes millions is anything close to the churches of the past.

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    • Libertarian
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:31am

      What is so difficult for people to understand these words “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…..”

      Report Post » Libertarian  
    • Libertarian
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:42am

      @Okie from Muskogee,

      Once again my friend you are right on, you have great perspective.

      Report Post » Libertarian  
    • Locked
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:01pm

      Churches can definitely support their candidates. They can also pay taxes then. If you want special privileges from the government, they come with conditions.

      Besides, how hard is it to say “I don’t support (liberal or conservative talking point) and neither should you!”? It’s not. Just don‘t mention a candidate and there’s no issue.

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    • PubliusPencilman
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:16pm

      So, when a minority wants to be treated equally (like gays being allowed to marry), you Blazers start crying about “special priviledges.” However, when a church wants to defend its own “right” to a very obvious special priviledge in the tax code while engaging in obviously partisan activities, then its all about free speech?

      This just goes to show that the Tea Party’s one defining characteristic is that it has absolutely NO CONSISTENT PRINCIPLES whatsoever.

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    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:18pm

      @Ashes2Ashes

      Howdy friend! Appreciate your kind words. A mosque should be considered just as a Church, it is a religion. Fortunately, if we adhere to our Constitution the theocracy goal of Islam would never succeed just as a Christian theocracy would never succeed. Law of Government forbidding murder, pedophile, or terror promoting are laws created by faithful and non faithful humans in accordance to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. We can not infringe anothers rights and murder, pedophile, and terror violate these rights. Our respect for others rights is suppose to prevent a theocracy and persecuting “Religion”. Theocracy Islam will be froze in it’s tracts if we follow these simple laws. If we believers react and push Christianity as State religion we open the back door for another religion, Islam, to implant it’s theocracy. 

      I would be worried about all the tax dollars we send over seas (aid and rebuilding) that is used to build Mosques outside our respectful laws and country and can be a persecuting theocracy there which then turns and hates us..Just think, our Churches are taxed which is God’s money, and then some of that money is sent as aid which could be used to build a mosque….Sad isn’t it. I hope your day is great! 

      @Libertarian

      Thank you very much. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • SheriS
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:38pm

      There is something in our Constitution that says “freedom of speech” and nowhere does it say anything about taking that away from preachers in the pulpit! Therefore, preachers are people and have the RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH WHETHER IN THE PULPIT OR ON THE STREET! We should all remember Obama’s pastor of many hears, Rev. Wright, who spewed worse venom that politics–he spewed hatred for almost anything and everyone! Since Rev. Wright has retired we no longer know what is going in the pulpit in the church he founded! But if Obama’s pastor can spew his hatred for Repubs from the pulpit, so can any preacher and Obama is totally out of line and his act is unconstitutional! Every preacher whether on the street, in the hospital or in the pulpit in his church HAS THE RIGHT TO HIS FREE SPEECH! This administration is attempting to take away all our rights and will end up in the courts if he continues!

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    • drbage
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:46pm

      But, but, but didn’t defrocked Pope Pelosi in her infamous “The Word” speech implore the gathered clergy to speak out and tell their congregations to vote for the so-called Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Bill (at that time)? Isn’t Media Matters supposedly a non-profit prohibited from political speech, yet they have declared war(excuse me, a kinetic non-military action) against Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, etc.? Does anyone else notice the irony/hypocrisy of the Dems/Progs/ACLU railing about separation of Church and State, yet Congress goes into recess for almost every Christian and Jewish holiday and with the new PC Police will Moslem, Hindu, etal follow soon?

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    • Libertarian
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:52pm

      @Locked

      You are absolutely wrong. Speech is not a privilege, nor is the constitution meant to be a tool of positive liberties. We did not start out at 100% taxation and as a privilege are granted tax cuts. Your thinking is backwards.

      We started out with very minute forms of direct taxation. So when the government removes a tax, whether it is corporate tax, a small business tax or income tax it is not a “tax cut” it is tax abolishment. It is not a privilege for government to remove tax; it is their obligation not to hinder us with taxation. This mentality needs to change in this country.

      Which amendment allows the federal government to control what is said in churches?

      Report Post » Libertarian  
    • Trance
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:04pm

      Sounds right to me, Batdawg. This isn’t an issue of free speech. Churches can preach whatever they want. This is an issue of what denotes a tax-exempt status. If churches want to be tax exempt, they cannot then campaign for or against a candidate.

      It would be a freedom of speech violation if churches were told what they can and cannot say from the pulpit (as well as a violation of the separation of church and state). Since churches are a business, I don’t think they should be granted tax exempt status to begin with. The tax code is used far too much in controlling this country’s citizens.

      Report Post » Trance  
    • KYWATCHDOG
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:09pm

      batdawg
      With all due respect, clearly defined in our Constitution as an American citizen you have the right to your freedom of speech and proclaim your opinion. Here’s mine, whether the church pays taxes or not is not an issue I perceive as my individual battle to fight. MY CONSERVATIVE BATTLE IS: in many churches we have seen invited politicians stand in the pulpit, owned by our God, in an attempt to drown out our free speech and silence our voices. It is with restrained contempt I reject those who pontificate racism, hatred and ILK to perpetuate their disregard for what God and America stand for. Their efforts are purely political and an attempt to boost their political upward mobility. I’d rather see them fail by being drowned out by strong conservative values and equal opportunity for all of us to achieve any legal plateau that make us stronger, God recognizing citizens, and contributors to society rather than takers of society. IN GOD WE DO TRUST!

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    • Libertarian
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:13pm

      @Trance,

      Which part of “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;….” do you not understand?

      Congress shall make no law, none, zero, zilch – respecting or prohibiting the free exercise.

      This is not an issue of speech, it is an issue of whether or not our national government can make ANY law for or against a religious institution. It cannot.

      That is all.

      Report Post » Libertarian  
    • godlovinmom
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:30pm

      Here’s my opinion on this one…if churches were biblical, than I would have a problem with it…but we all know in today’s society most churches are NOT…so why not tax them like a business…I know I’m one believer that hates seeing all these mega churches with their mega rich pastors…all in the name of God…don’t think so…modern day orgainzed religion is what it is…FALSE!

      Report Post » godlovinmom  
    • Trance
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:31pm

      @Libertarian

      Then we are in agreement. Congress should not be able to pass a law with respect to a churches tax status. The use of the tax law is controlling a churches speech, which compels a church to follow what the government wants it to say (with regard to politics), which is also a violation of a church’s right to exist without government interference.

      Report Post » Trance  
    • Libertarian
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:33pm

      @Trance,

      My apologies, I thought you were taking the opposite approach.

      Take care

      Report Post » Libertarian  
    • Kalish
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:34pm

      @BATDAWG I’m all for taking away the tax exempt status for churches, IF they do the same for the ACLU or Planned Parenthood, etc … only places that help in disasters should be tax exempt.

      Oh and churches do pay payroll taxes

      Report Post » Kalish  
    • Bible Quotin' Science Fearin' Conservative American
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 2:04pm

      Churches need to pay taxes like everyone else.

      Stop being freeloaders. Get a real job, pastors. Preach for free if the feeling moves you.

      I’m tired of subsidizing fairy tale school for morons.

      Report Post » Bible Quotin' Science Fearin' Conservative American  
    • PubliusPencilman
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 2:10pm

      “RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH WHETHER IN THE PULPIT OR ON THE STREET!”

      Exactly! I exercise my political free speech on the street, and as a citizen I pay taxes. If a church/synagogue/mosque wants to act politically, it gets the same deal.

      Report Post »  
    • apathyreigns
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 2:26pm

      I encourage you to check out Andy Stanley’s sermon series, Recovery Road. It is spot on this topic. http://feeds.feedburner.com/weeklypodcastnorthpoint.

      Report Post »  
    • TRUTHandFREEDOM
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 2:45pm

      The Johnson Amendment is a progressive tool to restrict political opposition. It was written by Lyndon B Johnson. After it was established, churches were added to the restricted (speech oppressed, rights denied) group classification. Free Speech is free speech. Denied free speech is denied free speech. The voice of the churches has been unconstitutionally oppressed.

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    • Hermeneuticals
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 3:10pm

      Absolute hogwash Batdawg since they are non-profit corps. anyway. Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Churches – whether 501c3 or not (they don’t have to be) are tax-exempt except for some payroll and some property tax.

      Report Post » Hermeneuticals  
    • jb.kibs
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 3:14pm

      so we get taxed on our income after busting our butts, … then we choose to give, some of the money we are “allowed to keep”, to the church (charity) (allowed to gift 3000$ per year, tax free) and then the IRS taxes the church, as a corporation, on the “profit” (charity) AND taxes the pastor on their “personal income” ? yeah.. that just sounds wrong… the pastors,ministers,etc.. maybe, but not the church itself. what a bunch of leeches… why don’t you start shaking down kids, before they enter school, for their lunch money… totally pathetic…

      1954 was a messed up year…

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    • ANTISOCIAL-IST
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 3:23pm

      any person who says “churches are corrupt” is a complete a hole. what? that’s just a blanket, unfounded statement as yours. there are plenty (majority) of churches that are not corrupt. just because you see some scammers on t.v. trying to bilk the faithful doesn’t mean that is representative of the thousands of churches around the world that do great things on a daily basis. plus, why should any other person/group who receives govt. money/tax breaks be allowed free speech, but not a church? plus, where’s your outrage with the likes of rev. (cough) notsosharpton, j. jackass and all the rest of those devils, whom, in my multiple decades of life, i have never, ever heard mention anything remotely close to representing themselves as being a child of God, let alone a teacher of God’s word, who receive tax breaks, while filling their greedy little pockets with their greedy little fingers?

      Report Post » ANTISOCIAL-IST  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 3:28pm

      What I find interesting on this topic, is that when you look at it, and the argument, it generally only applies to conservatives.

      What is being said, is those dog gone Baptists preachers better not open their mouth, and speak about abortion, homosexuality, socialism… and apply Bible and tie any of it to the Democrat party. The left knows that when a preacher applies Bible truth, it shoots down their liberal agenda and their programs.

      Why does no one speak of this issue in reference to once such a Jeremiah Right? The Rev Sharpton, the Rev Jackson, and did we apply this thought to the Rev Martin Luther King JR?

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 4:18pm

      Anti-Socialist

      Howdy! 

      “any person who says “churches are corrupt” is a complete a hole. what? that’s just a blanket, unfounded statement as yours.” 

      Actually the statement is founded with reasoning that followed “they signed up for 501c3′s” and this reasoning is true. 

      Corrupt: immoral or dishonest, especially as shown by the exploitation of a position of power or trust for personal gain

      The Churches who file 5013c are agreeing to not speak out or speak inside of guardrails. A power (Government) is exploiting Churches into speaking with in their guard rails for personal gain. Churches bowed, gave in by saying ok and signing up. Churches filing 501c3 are therefore corrupt…..

      Whether you worship a rock, a tree, or God almighty, Congress shall make no law in the establishment of religion. A 5013c is law on religion……Corrupt…..

      “there are plenty (majority) of churches that are not corrupt. just because you see some scammers on t.v. trying to bilk the faithful doesn’t mean that is representative of the thousands of churches around the world that do great things on a daily basis.”

      Majority file 5013c..Has nothing to do with some guy on tv. Church leaders agreeing to not speak fully or Government will bilk the Church is not good things….

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 4:25pm

      “plus, why should any other person/group who receives govt. money/tax breaks be allowed free speech, but not a church?”

      Your allowed free speech regardless if you receive money or not. If you sign a 5013c your agreeing not to speak in exchange for a lesser tax. A Church is an entity and Government is an entity, just as one State is an entity and another is an entity. Neither can tax the other just as Government is not allowed to tax Churches……

      “plus, where’s your outrage with the likes of rev. (cough) notsosharpton, j. jackass and all the rest of those devils, whom, in my multiple decades of life, i have never, ever heard mention anything remotely close to representing themselves as being a child of God, let alone a teacher of God’s word, who receive tax breaks, while filling their greedy little pockets with their greedy little fingers?”

      Outrage over what? You are not to decide what is a Church and what is not a Church thru law. If people are ignorant enough to give their money to people who speak a foul false religion, their choice., and more opportunity to share God’s Word for me. Being a believer in Jesus Christ I know those houses built on sand won’t stand. Especially if I am spreading God‘s word FREELY as I’m commanded….

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 4:27pm

      We ask ourselves why our country is headed to hell. The reason is because Churches won‘t speak God’s Spirit of truth about our Government and our responsibilities all the while the Government is giving talking points to Churches. Corrupt…..

      The Government is to encourage all Churches because of their Charity, values, morality for they relieve and help the burden of social problems with these qualities. Government shouldn’t be burdening Churches with ultimatums of hush or pay up….nough said…Hope your day is great!

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • jmanuola
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 4:41pm

      Its more complex than that. I’ve researched this for years. Churches do NOT have to be 501(c)(3) organizations in order to be exempt from taxes. Churches are IMMUNE from taxes by means of the Constitution. BUT…corporations are NOT exempt. When a church incorporates (usually in order to protect themselves from lawsuits and such…which is also an erroneous argument, btw)…the corporation is NOT tax exempt. Therefore, they have to apply for 501(c)(3) status in order for the CORPORATION to be tax exempt.

      Some would suggest that they have to apply for 501(c)(3) status in order for people to deduct contributions made to them. That is a lie too. I won’t go into the legal reasoning behind my comments at this point, but if anyone wants to know the details, let me know.

      Report Post »  
    • the hawk
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:09pm

      Pay the tax and lead thy flock !

      Report Post »  
    • ihveit
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:19pm

      here is my problem.. they have this stupid law and yet HOW MANY TIMES politicians and EXPECIALLY OBAMA was allowed to take the pulpit to promote his agenda?

      they want it both ways.. ok for demoCRAPS and not ok for repubs

      Report Post »  
    • shy
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:34pm

      Thats why we need a flat tax. You will be taxed when you buy something. But it take away the power of big brother.

      Report Post »  
    • grandma7
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 5:57pm

      Corrupt is a little harsh, but I agree with you on the other points. I believe churches should pay taxes, thus releasing the ties that bind them to the government.

      Report Post »  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:32pm

      Hi Okie…I just wanted for you to know how much I appreciate you. I remember sometime back when I was so worried about the state of our country..you said some things that made me feel just so much better. It’s as if God speaks through you to me sometimes and it gives me so much comfort. Thank you Okie…thank you so much…

      Report Post »  
    • ANTISOCIAL-IST
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:50pm

      okie: howdy back.
      first, you do not have to be a group for the government to consider you an entity. second, if all the other entitlement recipients, non-profits, etc. are tax exempt, then so should the churches be. i still don’t understand why you continue to call churches/pastors etc. corrupt for wanting to be tax exempt. people don’t lose their free speech rights when they collect their food stamps and welfare. corporations propped up by govt. do not lose their free speech rights when they accept their goodies. some of your points are worth considering, but i just don’t understand your continued assertion that a church is corrupt because they want the donations they receive, which, in good churches, go to fund social programs and the like, to be kept out of the hands of the CORRUPT govt.

      Report Post » ANTISOCIAL-IST  
    • mils
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:05pm

      where we live, the church pretty well dictates the elections.
      ..although they deny it, and tell the bishops not to give opinions..it’s laughable.
      huge rich church, sheep for followers.. the IRS will never get these guys to not run this state politically. no dictating to secrecy. they don’t have to be in the pupit saying anything…

      THAT BEING SAID…I feel safer here than any other state we have lived in.

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:35pm

      @Anti-Socialist

      You miss the whole point. The Church doesn’t need to want to be 501c3, they are by default under ‘Congress shall make no law in establishment of religion’ 

      So if you run a Church and per our Constitution, Government has zero say over you nor any ability to tax you, why would you sign a 501c3? you have no reason to unless you are being bullied and coward down to Government threats. That isn’t standing in truth. That is not leading. That is not courageous and doing right. It’s corruption. 

      If God’s spirit leads your pastor to preach President Zero is a Marxist he has the right to preach that without repercussion of taxing to death. Government control of Religion corrupts it. It has every time throughout history, every time. 

      Food stamps are not a religion.
      Corporations are not a religion. 
      Non-Profits are non religious businesses functioning for the good will and for no profit. 
      Churches are not business, remember Jesus and the braided whip. One acting like business are corrupt. 

      The money a church receives are donations, offerings to GOD’S Church for HIS programs. Not for Government to come take off the top if you speak out of line. I hope I made better sense for you. If I came off aggressive the first post my bad. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:56pm

      Ashes2Ashes

      I am honored by your very kind words and thank you much. God is amazing and I too find myself at times hearing friends talk and it seems as God is speaking to me. It is awesome stuff. Keep up the good fight. Stay safe! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:26pm

      @Okie from Muskogee

      Well stated, you handled this topic very professionally as always.

      Kind of makes you think. If getting a tax break makes you lose your free speech, than what about the 46 million on food stamps, do they lose free speech? It is my understanding that the bottom 45% of Americans (in regards to how much money they make) do not pay taxes.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • webpreacher
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:47pm

      In many cases, BATDAWG, your are absolutely right, One thing I will say, the Government does not dictate what is preached in my Church…period ! At Anchor Baptist we preach God’s Book the KJV Bible, werein we do not stray from it. We do not own a building, we rent because it is Biblical, Jesus when He gathered with those early 1rst century disciples / followers of Christ always, ALWAYS rented a space to gather. Also, you are so right, Jesus did pay tribute (Taxes), in whatever the Government required. I do not believe in this business of the 501c3 exemption tax code, I also believe those who claim to be Christians, then must need to FOLLOW in Christ example, in every way, in his speech, his mannerisms, thinking, preaching (yes Jesus was a preacher), in his selflessness, in his sobriety, his work, his faithfulness to fulfill God’s will, also his humility, and his dying to self daily.
      There is such a falling away of God’s truth, so many (nearly all) watered down churches, but not surprising, rather it is Biblical, for in the last days there shall be a falling away.
      Anyway Jesus paid taxes, He is the Head of the Church (body of Christ, and not a building), and you are right BATDAWG, the Body of Christ , which is HIS Church, ,should pay tribute (taxes) whatever is the requirement. Matthew 17: 24 – 27 , The issue of paying taxes clearly defined in this passage of Holy Script. Jesus sent Peter, to retrieve the money, and as not to offend, told Peter to pay for them bot

      Report Post » webpreacher  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:11pm

      @Ranger P

      Thanks man. 

      It does make one think but if one does one clearly sees there is no need  to revoke speech from the poor? They are no threat to Government, they are poor and have now power. Same with the 45% who pay no income tax. Also speech is guaranteed, it’s protected, inalienable the Government can not take away. The only way they legally can suppress speech is if one gives them permission to do so. Churches threaten Government as they have all thru history. Besides Government wants us dependent upon it. Government wants to redeem is! Ha! 

      We Christians of America could easily fix the food stamp problem. We could feed America thru our Churches without one Government dime if we put our faith in doing so. This is where we have failed as believers IMO. This is what Glenn i believe has been telling us. Government has taught us it will do it taking our responsibility from us and threw time we forgot we had that responsibility. Government is trying to be the redeemer. Just my half a cent thought! I hope you’ve had a good day. 

      Oh, Jon “Bones” Jones man! Ha! Stay safe my friend…

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:49pm

      @WEBPPREACHER..“Jesus paid taxes” But do you remember what he asked His disciple before telling him to go and fetch the coin from the fishes mouth? He said…who does the King charge tax to..his sons, or the foreigners? The disciple answered…the foriengners.” Right? And then Jesus said something to the effect of “You have answered rightly..but to avoid offending the authorities, we will pay.” So in essence, Jesus said that sons of the King…which would be the ones doing the work of God.. did not owe the taxes but would pay anyway just to avoid offense. I tend to agree with the churches being tax exempt. Churches spread the Word of God and I don’t think that we should have donations taxed. There is too much taxation and it is not going for the good of the taxpayers.

      Report Post »  
    • jzs
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 1:01am

      Okie, I think I agree with some parts of your multiple posts, but your ideas take abrupt turns, some seem like complete non sequiturs, and with your use of quotation remarks I can’t always tell if the ideas are yours or whether you are quoting someone else. Your thoughts seem to come like waves, and your thinking seems disorganized. You doing okay?

      Anyway, I think the point has been missed. This is about pastors using their pulpit and church to elect a candidate – promoting their election, under the banner of God, during sermons. Collecting money from their congregation to donate to the candidates, passing out fliers supporting a candidate, and recruiting members of the congregation to volunteer in support of a candidate. A candidate that the pastor believes in supported by God.

      When a church gets involved in partison politics, and is actively supporting certain politicians and a partison point of view, they are no longer acting as a church, but instead as a political organization, something that is taxed under US law.

      Apart from that, is it your view that your church should be a political organization which, based on somebody’s interpretation of the Bible, decides which candidate God supports (assuming God cares about local elections)? Is it the pastor’s job to support politicians who, in line with the teaching of Jesus Christ, support funneling America’s wealth to the rich while cutting programs that help the poor?

      Report Post » jzs  
    • ANTISOCIAL-IST
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 1:47am

      okie: i completely understood what you’ve said. i just think we’re both making points on different arcs of the topic and will not meet in the middle. again, putting everything else aside, i think my point was about calling churches “corrupt.” that was my initial point to another blazer. and you carried that torch into your subsequent posts, giving me the definition of “corrupt” at least two times, but having no connection to a church and being tax exempt. it is and was the govt in this whole matter that is and was corrupt. the church should be exempt as a nonprofit. the government making laws and making churches sign away there rights is corruption and abuse of power and antiConstitutional on the govt’s part. i have been the target of that particular govt agency before and they are persuasive in their tactics. “do this or else” could be quite intimidating to paster joe down the road; doesn‘t mean they’re corrupt by folding and not understanding their rights…of being tax exempt and having their freedom of speech rights to speak about whatever they want. no retort necessary; we’re never going to get there.
      doesn’t matter. see you on another topic.

      Report Post » ANTISOCIAL-IST  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 2:03am

      @JZS

      I am glad to see your post. Take it easy on me I’m a little tired. 

      To answer the questions on the “ ”. We use those when replying to a poster as I did with Anti-Socialist. The words between the “ ” are her words and my reply sits below the quoted remarks. :-P

      No point has been missed. Before the Johnson Amendment Church could speak/do as they wish in regards to politics, no tax, and zero Government infringement. Congress has no authority to dictate what is spoken in a Church or tax it, period. 

      Do you know why LBJ passed this amendment? Two non-profit anti-communist groups were opposing and going after LBJ is his reelection to the Senate. LBJ retaliated and issued this amendment to the tax code including Churches and silenced them. Congress went along and passed it. Since it has been tightened and it will continue to tighten. it was and is a political tool to silence opposition. That is unconstitutional. 

      A Church leaders job is to guide and teach his flock God‘s word and how to live God’s word. This includes politics/Government. It is the Church leaders obligation to speak out and speak truth, in their opinion if ones not a believer, towards or against Government, politics, or a candidate and anything else they are led to speak.  

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 2:10am

      JZS
      My view is the Church is a religious entity that Government a separate entity has no power to regulate per our Constitution. If a leader of a Church, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or Christian, feel led to speak out for or against a candidate they should do so. 

      If you believe you should funnel money to the rich while cutting the aid to the poor is in line with your God then you should boldly speak up and say so. If you believe your God is socialist and should take money from one and give to another you should boldly say so. Not to speak is to speak. Either way a Church has the right to speak on it. 

      Do you believe in separation of Church and State? If so why are you advocating to make Churches government agencies? No matter how you slice it truth is this Amendment was issued to shut a threat up. 

      What say you? I gotta get some shut eye. I’ll check back in the am. Good to see your post. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 2:22am

      @Anti-Socialist

      Corruption comes from giving up their expression they had before this amendment. A bold courageous leader would stand in truth and say NO, go kick rocks its unconstitutional and Government is violating its own law. Government can’t force anything, especially against leaders standing in truth. There is your corruption you won’t hold the Church responsible for. Responsibility, being accountable for the Churches actions. 

      The Government would either try to persecute the Church or go back and mind it’s own business. Our Churches fell to temptation, they coward down. Take care!  

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • VF21Freelancer
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 9:05am

      You are absolutely correct – government is the god of most “churches.” They see their purpose is electing leaders to change laws to fit their beliefs. To them, God is powerless. The word of God will not be stopped. It was not stopped by the Roman Empire – a government far more evil than our own. Preach Christ crucified and forget about any worldly system including ours. The world will persecute you and do anything to stop you – accept that as part of your calling if indeed you are truly called.

      Report Post »  
    • sbeejustsaying
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 10:09am

      So did Rev. Wright, Rev. Jackson and Rev. Sharpton.

      Report Post » sbeejustsaying  
    • davamdean
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 12:32pm

      Batdawg – Where do you get this Idea that Pastors dont pay taxes? Every pastor and church emloyee in America pays taxes on there income. Jesus was talking about individual taxes not 501(c)3 excempt entities.

      Report Post »  
    • MichaelP633
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 1:23pm

      The underlying problem is INCORPORATION. All ministries are by IRS regulation non-taxable. Free speech is not questioned.
      When a ministry incorporates it becomes a business first and ministry second, therefore taxable. They must go the second step and get the 501(c)3 tax exempt status and all the limitation thereof. This subjegates the church to the state and its rules.
      Church Inc. churches are gagged not free churches.
      MPH

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 2:23pm

      Still have not had anyone answer my question. Why does this only seem to apply, or be used in reference to conservative preachers that may speak out agains abortion, homosexualty, socialism, communism – and its relation to the democrat party.

      No one ever uses this line of arguement against – Jeremiah Right? The Rev Sharpton, the Rev Jackson, and did we apply this thought to the Rev Martin Luther King JR?

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 3:50pm

      Ranger P

      I’ll take a stab at your question. I would like to here your thoughts on why though. 

      Two points, first most generally Conservative want not to limit anyone’s speech, most conservatives believe we must stand for all to speak even those we disagree with. It’s our responsibility to do so.  

      Second, Democrats, like LBJ where this originated, do not mind shutting up their opposition. Communism, Socialism, Abortion, etc are destroyed on the battlefield of ideas by Conservative thought and our Constitution. They must resort to unorthodoxed approaches.

      If you recall, outrage over Wright from the right help lead to his removal. I do not like this man at all but he has every right as I do to speak what he believes his God is leading him to speak. I’m confident we could beat him on the battlefield of ideas any day ofmthe week. MLK was a little different in he was speaking out about the Government breaking it’s own rules. All men created equal. I’m sure the Government was weighing every option to silence MLK. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • DallyWama
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 8:52pm

      A church is not a business. Many 501c’s, like media matters, propagate political opinion. Many pastors are afraid to preach about issues because they believe they will be penalized by the IRS. However, they can speak about issues like gay mattiage, they just cant offer opinion for or against a candidate. Issues, like homosexuality, are fair game because they are actually covered in the Bible. Or are we reading the same Bible?

      Report Post »  
    • longwaytogo
      Posted on September 26, 2011 at 2:21pm

      You are incorrect in your conclusions. The government threatened the church they would lose tax exempt status if they didn’t become register as under the 501c3. The government has used this to control on the church. The church does not need to be a 501c3 to be tax exempt but when they (the church) put themselves into the IRS 501c3 program, they do lose some of their rights to free speech. It is stupid for any church to be a 501c3.

      Report Post »  
  • sissykatz
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:37am

    I personally don’t want my church to start preaching politics. I don’t see a good outcome for this.
    I do not believe politics should come into the church. This will tear churches apart.

    Report Post »  
    • The Realist
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:43am

      Seeing as how you can’t be a liberal and a Christian at the same time (COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE), if a bit of politics “divides” the church, then it wasn’t truly the politics that did it. It was just the hidden fact that some of the people calling themselves Christians were not. Virtually everything liberals stand for, promote, and advance runs opposite in the worst possible ways to the teachings of Christ-so the two cannot coexist. The liberals in a church need to pray and repent from their sinful liberalism.

      Report Post » The Realist  
    • Steve
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:48am

      I’ve seen Churches split over the color of the drapes.

      Report Post »  
    • smackdown33
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:04am

      The decision should be up to the church and not the state. If the church gets too extreme, it will lose its followers.

      Report Post »  
    • The Realist
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:17am

      smackdown33
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:04am

      “The decision should be up to the church and not the state. If the church gets too extreme, it will lose its followers.”

      –Agreed. But to sit and remain silent in the midst of the full-on assault against our country taking place by liberals is a HUGE mistake. Pastors should tell the congregation about the candidates (both sides) and how they and their policies relate to the word of God and teachings of Christ. When it becomes clear, upon simple examination, that liberal candidates are nowhere near the word of God and teachings of Christ-the congregation should know clearly who to vote for.

      Report Post » The Realist  
    • RRFlyer
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:37am

      I wouldn’t want my pastor giving a political speech during service. I don’t mind him stating his opinions in personal talks, but I would not go to any church that the pastor told me how to vote.
      He is an admitted Liberal, by the way, and he is very willing to let us Conservatives have our say. Also, he is very spiritual and I have agreed with everything he has to say in his sermons about God and Christianity. Believe it or not there are true Christians that are Liberal.

      Report Post »  
    • fancydancy
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:01am

      It seems a church in Chicago with a well known minister had no problem preaching against Hillary when she was running against his favorite parishioner and he used her name several times and told the rest of us what he thought of America.

      Report Post »  
    • Deuteronomy22
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:10am

      THE REALIST sitting in judgement of 30% of the American population is a greater sin than being a “liberal”. You do realize that many liberals truly do believe that caring for the poor and infirm is more important than advancing capitalism and protecting tax loopholes for millionaires. There are actually many pro-life liberals so don’t try that as an excuse. How do you have such great knowledge of what is in the hearts of 60 or 70 million people? You place yourself ahead of God by your condemnation and will yourself be called to answer for your judgement.

      Report Post » Deuteronomy22  
    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:07am

      You cannot serve two masters, you will Love one and hate the other…this comes to mind!

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
    • Saved Forever
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:36am

      Deuteronomy22

      THE REALIST sitting in judgement of 30% of the American population is a greater sin than being a “liberal”.
      - He didn’t judge anyone. He only told the truth.

      You do realize that many liberals truly do believe that caring for the poor and infirm is more important than advancing capitalism and protecting tax loopholes for millionaires.
      - Caring for the poor doesn’t make you a Christian.

      There are actually many pro-life liberals so don’t try that as an excuse.
      - Maybe so, but because they are liberal they support some other kind of wickedness like homosexuality. You can not support wickedness of any kind and remain true to Christ at the same time.

      How do you have such great knowledge of what is in the hearts of 60 or 70 million people?
      - Ecc 10:2 A wise man’s heart is at his right hand; but a fool’s heart at his left.

      You place yourself ahead of God by your condemnation and will yourself be called to answer for your judgement.
      - Again, he didn’t condemn anyone. All he did was tell the truth.

      Report Post »  
    • CatB
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:28pm

      Black churches do this all the time .. they preach politics and no one says a thing … WHY? Why is it only “conservative” churches that must follow the “rules”.

      Report Post »  
    • UnseenAmerican
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:05pm

      Why can‘t Liberals can’t be Christians??? That is not a judgement that you can make Realist. A Liberal might say the same thing about a Conservative. Both judgements are out of order. SAVED: Caring for the poor does not make you a Christian but is a Christian value taught by Christ and the Apostles…thus the Deacons. Liberal Christians don’t support homosexuals in large part…they do believe that even homosexuals are people too who need to be ministed to. Christ forgave and made promises to a murderous thief while dying on the cross. Was he supporting evil? Ecc 10:2? I hope you don’t think that this scripture is talking about the political divide. Right and left hands are used in the Bible to represent good and evil, right and wrong. There is good and evil in both Liberals and Conservatives. …for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) Your assertions that this is a Liberal problem is unfounded and your use of Scripture inadequate. Now with that said, I believe that churches and Pastors should be able to be free to express their beliefs to to the congregrants. Parishioners should be sensible enough to make up their own minds about a political candidate or issue no matter who they heard speak about it.

      Report Post »  
    • UnseenAmerican
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:14pm

      Black churches do this all the time??? have you ever heard of Baptist Pastor Steve Anderson?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_im7wh2Hz7U

      Report Post »  
    • HopinForBetter
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:29pm

      Sissykatz,
      Isn’t it bad enough that the American electorate is already so ignorant politically. Americans need to be re-energized. They need to be re-educated about our constitution, our history and our politics. The American pulpit commented any time it was felt necessary about politics for most of our history until 60 years ago. Only good befell our country until our way of life began to be ‘liberalized.’

      Report Post »  
    • The Realist
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:34pm

      @Deuteronomy22
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:10am
      “THE REALIST sitting in judgement of 30% of the American population is a greater sin than being a “liberal”.
      –My friend you need to get a clue. I’m not judging anyone but simply stating facts. The liberal agenda, by-and-large, runs counter to the teachings of Christ and the will of God. Now you can accept that or not-you can “lower God’s standard,” make exceptions, or whatever, but if one TRULY understands what it means to be a Christian, and simultaneously understands what the liberal Agenda is (doesn’t matter if a liberal necessarily agrees or not with the entire agenda; if they help elect these UNGODLY leaders, they are CONTRIBUTING) then it is impossible to call yourself both. Sorry.
      “You do realize that many liberals truly do believe that caring for the poor and infirm is more important than advancing capitalism and protecting tax loopholes for millionaires.”
      –Oh stop. This is not only about Capitalism. It is however, about realizing the DEATH and SUFFERING of untold MILLIONS that socialism has brought throughout the world-and keeping it AWAY.
      “There are actually many pro-life liberals so don’t try that as an excuse. How do you have such great knowledge of what is in the hearts of 60 or 70 million people?”
      –Hearts? No, but I can be a “fruit” inspector. By their works you shall know them. If people are assisting in advancing a gigantic list of things UNGODLY, I’d venture to guess they don

      Report Post » The Realist  
    • The Realist
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:51pm

      @UnseenAmerican
      “Caring for the poor does not make you a Christian but is a Christian value taught by Christ and the Apostles”

      –The Lord loveth a CHEERFUL giver. THAT is the difference. Not a FORCED, via the theft known as wealth redistribution aka SOCIALISM/Marxism/communism. And again, stop trying to make it all about “taxes” or “capitalism” It’s about knowing history-the deaths and sufferings of millions because of socialism/Marxism/communism-and wanting to do everything we can to keep it from coming here and DOING THE SAME. But it’s also about the sanctity of marriage as God defines it-between a MAN and a WOMAN. It’s about protecting the unborn, it’s about keeping MANY liberals and there constant hostility towards Christianity under control. If they had their way it would be outlawed. It’s about keeping control of our ENVY that results in COVETOUSNESS to the point many in this country VOTE FOR THE GUY WHO WILL STEAL from one PRODUCTIVE person and give to a SLOTHFUL, NON-PRODUCTIVE person. All these things and much more.

      Report Post » The Realist  
    • The Realist
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 2:03pm

      Christians have an OBLIGATION to elect GODLY LEADERS. If we remain uninformed, as many do, how will we do that? Many of our liberal friends out there, who REFUSE to listen to a Glenn Beck or other “evil right wing talk show” will NEVER HEAR THE TRUTH. It is for THIS REASON, our PASTORS and CHURCH LEADERS must help fill the gap. All this should entail, as I stated previously-is telling the congregation what each candidates records and positions are and how they relate to God. This is NOT saying spend an entire service on doing this, and it is NOT saying to try and tell people to vote for.But given the proper factual information (that the liberal media HIDES) most people would then be able to make a vote for a GODLY leader-or certainly as Godly as possible-unlike the man who is our president now who seems to have quite a chip on his shoulder towards “typical white people who cling to their Bibles” and sat with Jeremiah Wright for 20 years.

      Report Post » The Realist  
    • rose-ellen
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 4:25pm

      There should not be any tax exempt status for religions. let every religion stand on its own two feet. Though we should protect the right of religions to exist -why should a secular government give them any perks? And a religion should have the right to preach anything it wants -whether political ,subversive or whatever.I say this as a practicing catholic.The catholic church of course can stand on its own -so I’m covered in taking this stand but really why encourage every dinky[just kidding] new church/religion that crops up many to enrich the pastors. religions should exist because they have stood the test of time-not because someone fenegled a tax exempt staus with the government!

      Report Post »  
    • The Realist
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:10pm

      UnseenAmerican
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 1:14pm
      “Black churches do this all the time??? have you ever heard of Baptist Pastor Steve Anderson?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_im7wh2Hz7U ”

      –Are you serious? Whoever the guy is in this YouTube audio clip, he is CLEARLY not a Christian. But you libs go on believing everyone that claims to be a Christian IS a Christian…go right ahead. Ditto for these “abortion clinic bombers etc. Funny how you libs love to use these nutcases as if they are real Christians, prop them up, and then point your fingers for your fellow libs to see, and yell “SEE! SEE! That’s how they are! This man is beyond a disgrace, and judging by the sound of his “congregation,” he probably has about a dozen fellow lunatics with him. They all need our prayers people like this. All they do (thanks to you libs in large part) is hurt the cause of Christianity.

      Report Post » The Realist  
    • The Realist
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:21pm

      RRFlyer
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:37am
      “I wouldn’t want my pastor giving a political speech during service. I don’t mind him stating his opinions in personal talks, but I would not go to any church that the pastor told me how to vote.”
      –You’re right-no pastor should tell you how to vote-they should tell you how GOD would have you vote, by comparing each candidate’s stands on the issues, voting record, etc. to the word and will of GOD.

      “He is an admitted Liberal, by the way, and he is very willing to let us Conservatives have our say.”
      –Oh boy. I’d be HIGHLY suspect as to how accurate and thorough his teaching of the Bible is. As in-is he cherry picking parts of the Bible or does he cover it all? Do you ever feel CONVICTED at the end of a service, thinking there is something you must repent of in your life? Is the church growing in membership?
      “Also, he is very spiritual and I have agreed with everything he has to say in his sermons about God and Christianity. Believe it or not there are true Christians that are Liberal.”
      –He may be spiritual, and he may be the nicest guy in the world. I’ve met a few libs who are nice people. But a true Christian cannot be liberal. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not understand the full content of what it means to be each, what is required, what is advanced. They are two different tracks going in different directions. I bet he thinks Obama is really a Christian? If so I’d really look for a better church

      Report Post » The Realist  
    • UnseenAmerican
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:25pm

      @Realist: I didn’t mention capitalism nor taxation. I responded directly to your flawed interpretations of Scripture. You are not a realist at all…you’re a partisan plain and simple. I know that by the way you jumped straight to the Conservative talking points. Partisans of either party will never be able to listen to each other with an open mind. Yes, some of my Liberal brothers and sisters have some issues with Christian ethics. But you can’t believe that all Liberals are evil and un-Godly just because they are not Conservative. Some of my Conservative brothers and sisters have also had their share of immoral behavior. I tire of Conservatives thinking that they corner the market on Christianity and morality…they do not. If you make your judgements based on political affiliations then your judgement is just as flawed as your interpretation of Scripture. You say that we must elect Godly men (people) to public office. Well, tell me, who among (them) is without sin and can cast the first stone? And don’t tell me that any of them would be better than what we have currently…that doesn’t answer the question. Did Christ choose all Godly men as His desciples? Was the person who became the Apostle to the Gentiles a Godly man? Again, your religiosity is flawed.

      Report Post »  
    • The Realist
      Posted on September 25, 2011 at 10:15am

      UnseenAmerican
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:25pm
      @Realist: I didn’t mention capitalism nor taxation.
      –Not directly no. But “caring for the poor” = socialism= higher taxes/anti-capitalism. Very simple, let’s be honest.
      “I responded directly to your flawed interpretations of Scripture. You are not a realist at all…you’re a partisan plain and simple.”
      –Your opinion. God is quite a partisan, wouldn’t you say? Who are we to question Him?
      “Partisans of either party will never be able to listen to each other with an open mind.”
      –Aha. “Open mind”= conservatives/Christians and their morals/values CAPITULATING to liberals, plain and simple. It never happens the other way around.
      “But you can’t believe that all Liberals are evil and un-Godly just because they are not Conservative.”
      –Never said that. But they are promoting that which runs opposite to the teachings and will of Christ and God. I see major problems with that, and I doubt God is thrilled.
      “Some of my Conservative brothers and sisters have also had their share of immoral behavior.”
      –Well duh! Of course being a conservative doesn’t make one a Christian, and even the best among us deserve God’s judgment. The difference being is a true Christian is in a continual process of REPENTANCE, not looking for ways to get others to commit sins.
      “If you make your judgements based on political affiliations then your judgement is just as flawed as your interpretation of Scripture –Not true-Go

      Report Post » The Realist  
  • The Realist
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:34am

    This is very simple. Our tax dollars pay for all the indoctrination and political agendas in schools, so the churches should be exempt and allowed their free speech too. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Report Post » The Realist  
    • Mandors
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:45am

      The irony is that the people sitting in church are probably already to some extent predisposed to the views of their pastor/minister/priest. Outward political speech by the same is unlikely to have anything more than a superfluous effect on the opinions of the audience.

      Report Post » Mandors  
  • hempstead1944
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:33am

    Only the opening salvo on free speech. There will be more attempts to silent America in the years to come…..

    Report Post »  
    • CatB
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:30pm

      Why is it allowed in Black Churches … you don’t think Rev. Wright rallying against the government of the United States was “political speech”? It is done ALL THE TIME in Black churches. Two sets of rules again!

      TEA!

      Report Post »  
  • toomuchgovt
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:30am

    I once loved my faith and my church. Until I could no longer just enjoy hearing the word of God. Everything was cloaked in politics. I live in a VERY liberal town and attendance was down. I guess they need to fill the seats. After about a year of campaigning from the pulpit, then the election,and then the push for more failed social policies I finally left.

    The final straw came when the priest started asking the congregation to sign the amnesty for all petition and then the next week asked everyone to “consider signing the right to health care bill” Obamacare, when I asked if I could offer a petition of an opposing view, I was called evil and I wanted people to die.

    I pray that the church becomes the beacon of salvation it once was. A house of God. Politics has no place in the church. I was sick when I watched Rev. Wright, I don’t see how this is any different.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I believe we should turn our energy on helping each other in the name of the Lord, not getting the Lords name in the evils of politics.

    From this point on, I see the politics in Church can be abused.

    Report Post » toomuchgovt  
    • Duddio
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:19am

      Then you don’t understand your own history. America was founded by revolutionaries that went to churches where political speech was rampant. They didn’t limit God from any area of life, and as such, the church had a voice in all things. You need to do some research on the Black Robed Regiment from the Revolutionary War. Pastors and religious leaders were essential to the founding of our nation. I’m sorry your church was liberal, maybe you should find a congregation that is more concerned with God’s righteousness and salvation than a liberal, progressive agenda.

      Just because man wants to co-opt God to his own causes, doesn‘t mean that God is silent on man’s affairs, and that includes politics.

      Report Post »  
    • MrButcher
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:43am

      Duddio,

      You do know you’re advocating for sectarianism and Black Robe tyrants, right?

      You apparently don’t know history either.

      The most cherished ideas of our founding where not the result of Church decrees nor did these ideas have any biblical basis or warrent. Free expression, individual rights and freedom of religion are not a christian tradition. No distorting of the truth will ever make that so.

      As a matter of fact, church-going was much less, percentage wise, during the latter half of the 18 century than it is today. If you really want to return to the practices of the generation that founded America you should be advocating less church attendence and not more.

      “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”

      -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

      Report Post » MrButcher  
    • Dudley Do-Right
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 12:20pm

      MRBUTCHER

      This exhibition demonstrates that many of the colonies that in 1776 became the United States of America were settled by men and women of deep religious convictions who in the seventeenth century crossed the Atlantic Ocean to practice their faith freely. That the religious intensity of the original settlers would diminish to some extent over time was perhaps to be expected, but new waves of eighteenth century immigrants brought their own religious fervor across the Atlantic and the nation’s first major religious revival in the middle of the eighteenth century injected new vigor into American religion. The result was that a religious people rose in rebellion against Great Britain in 1776, and that most American statesmen, when they began to form new governments at the state and national levels, shared the convictions of most of their constituents that religion was, to quote Alexis de Tocqueville’s observation, indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. The efforts of the Founders of the American nation to define the role of religious faith in public life and the degree to which it could be supported by public officials that was not inconsistent with the revolutionary imperatives of the equality and freedom of all citizens is the central question which this exhibition explores.

      http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

      Report Post »  
  • Abraham Young
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:26am

    the federal income tax should be repealed, IF it can be proven that it was properly ratified in the first place. Look up Irwin Schiff’s website paynoincometax dot com for starters.

    Report Post »  
  • jaylew
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:25am

    I see a lot of posts invoking the Freedom of Speech as a reason for us not to worry about ministers, pastors, rabbis, and priests saying whatever they want in the pulpit. I did not include Imams in this post because they pretty much say whatever they want anyway and a good number of them have nothing nice to say about life in America or for that matter what is WRONG with a scary malignancy growing in their own religion. If you all have no problem with Bill Clinton or Al Gore stumping from the pulpit on any given Sunday….I DO have a problem with that….I wouldn‘t have a problem with it if politicians like Al Gore or Bill Clinton would set their politics aside for just one hour and discuss God’s blessings or the nuances of how getting together in church on Sundays often helps keep folks grounded and humbled and appreciative of what they do have…and how a guided introspection can assist some people in actually being better people.BUT Bill Clinton or Al Gore CAN’T set aside their agenda for even one hour and there in lies the rub. It is indeed despicable that the IRS as always seems to have it’s snout into everything we do as Americans but there is a reason 501c3 tax exempt statuses exist because a good portion of the tax code revolves around it. For one thing tax exempt status prohibits political endorsements or the stumping of candidates. There are enough shenanigans going on in the political process already….this isn‘t a free speech issue it’s a tax exempt one.

    Report Post » jaylew  
    • sWampy
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:08am

      Liberals all do stump in churches, the mindless liberal ****** only have problems when Christians do it.

      Report Post »  
    • dnewton
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 10:16am

      Spotted Al Gore flunked out of divinity school, but was still qualified to be the Pope of the Church of Global Warming. I really don’t mind him speaking in a church as long as it is not for the main Sunday morning service. I think churches should engage the culture, but not as appendages to the RNC or DNC. The church should be able to offer its facilities for discussion of such topics as abortion, divorce, payday loans/usury, homosexuality, school curriculum and bio-ethics. Somewhere in that discussion should be imbedded the Biblical world view that has existed for thousands of years. I’ll guess most churches have less than 5% of their members GDP at the disposal of the church. After you take out the building, salaries and maintenance, very little is left over for the Great Commission. If this somehow deteriorates into a “take back the culture” move, the flag can be placed above the cross and that would be just another hallmark of American decline.

      Report Post »  
  • sheik
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:24am

    So the socialist miscreants in government are concerned that the conservatives could get anti-socialist instruction in the churches, what else is new? From their point of view, it makes sense.

    While political speech is rare in churches, the mosques are all political.

    Are they registered as 501(c)(3) organizations or not?

    Report Post » sheik  
  • myptofvu
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:14am

    Can we declare Unions as Churches to shut THEM up?

    Report Post »  
  • Marengo Ohio Patriot
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:10am

    they should be able to say as they please. they should also be paying taxes!

    Report Post »  
    • jaylew
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:17am

      I am good with your idea too. Say what you want but as long as I have to be subjected to income and property taxes to “buy in” to the freedoms the constitutions affords…so too should churches.

      Report Post » jaylew  
  • 4truth2all
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:07am

    Liked what the Pastor said…was remembering when I began to get involved in a time release program for High School before school and the leader who was a pastor said that we could not talk about homosexuality or abortion because as he put it, they were divisive and political. I remember thinking I either can’t be part of this program or I will have to disobey this pastor.

    Report Post »  
  • Drakkhanlord
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:07am

    Sobs want to play politics …then sobs can pay TAXES.

    Report Post » Drakkhanlord  
  • TommyJH54
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:05am

    Funny, where do I go in my precinct to vote? A church!

    Report Post » TommyJH54  
  • Islesfordian
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:54am

    It is a clear violation of the 1st Amendment. What is the pastor doing but speak? If there was actual electioeering or some physical activity to politically organize going on in the church that might be different. But restricting what he SAYS? That can’t stand as constitutional.

    Report Post » Islesfordian  
    • loriann12
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:11am

      I can see there being no coming out and saying “vote for this guy.” Even if it is free speach, the pastor is in a leadership role and could unduly influence the congregation. But if he’s talking issues and not specific candidates, he should be allowed. And yes, I realize I only used “he.” Even as a woman, I don’t believe that women should lead the church. They can lead a Sunday school class, they can be a women’s minister, but not head of the whole church. OK, liberals hit me with your best shot, but that’s what I believe. (Spoken as someone who has indeed lead a Bible study and a Sunday school class.)

      Report Post »  
    • HowardSternIsABigot
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:29am

      The income tax isnt constitutional either but that doesnt stop the new world evil. Federal reserve isnt constitutional either. The current so called govt is neither American or Christian so what can we expect? The so called govt actively lies to suppress freedoms of all sorts. Freedom is purchased at the point of a gun, history keeps repeating.

      Report Post »  
  • dnewton
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:51am

    This will cut both ways. As the church becomes more apostate, saving souls is becoming a secondary factor to saving the planet. We are also seeing a movement to dispose of doctrine for the purpose of co-belligerency against social change involving homosexuality, humanist world views touted by the schools and pornography.

    Report Post »  
  • Harold B
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:50am

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridiging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the right of the people to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievences. (Amendment 1 US Constitution)

    When was the Johnson amendment to remove our freedoms ratified by the people?

    Report Post »  
  • HowardSternIsABigot
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:49am

    While I support the movement… the answer is as stated by commenters…You need to speak the truth period. If govt takes yourt tax credits,,,so what,…speak the truth….speak the truth….what good is caesars script? tell the truth….speak your mind….dont worry about taxes or offewnding some little delusional girl…speak the truth…quit worrying about inanities,,speak the truth. get it?? SPEAK THE TRUTH!!!!

    Report Post »  
    • MrButcher
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:50am

      But like Pilate wondered, “What is truth?”

      Report Post » MrButcher  
  • Smokey_Bojangles
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:41am

    Preachers preach against sin.Where else are you going to find so much sin as politics?

    Report Post » Smokey_Bojangles  
    • MrButcher
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 9:59am

      Q: Where else are you going to find so much sin as politics?

      A: In churches.
      ——————
      Pick your poison, huh?

      Report Post » MrButcher  
  • louise
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:38am

    We will see who cares more about the Truth or tax-free exemption.

    Report Post » louise  
  • kickagrandma
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:31am

    Praying for courage for the pastors, ministers, preachers, priests to have courage to STAND in JESUS’ name. If ever your “flocks” needed a true, righteous shepherd on this earth, it is now. I am praying that false teachers, preachers, ministers, priests who are not “sold out” 100% to JESUS, and to GOD’S HOLY WORD, will be uncovered before their congregations so that the people of GOD can find a true champion of our LORD AND SAVIOR and of HIS WORD.

    What a time of bravery and courage for us all as GOD leads us to HIM through these rough and tumble times as HE molds us, shapes us, encourages us and renews us to be the people HE intended us to be when HE created us in our mothers’ wombs.

    COURAGE!

    In JESUS’ name, amen.

    Report Post »  
  • KICKILLEGALSOUT
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:12am

    We need to mobilize Churches and their numbers to take our Local, State, and National Government back from the Traitors that have infiltrated and damaged us for years. The easiest way around the restrictions is don’t use the Sunday service in church to talk about politics, keep that for worship time which is rightfully God’s time anyways. Let the church members and community meet another day of the week to talk about the issues harming their community and pray and strategize how to take it back and then pass on the information and join together with other local churches to become a greater force for Conservative change!

    Report Post » KICKILLEGALSOUT  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:54am

      Agreed, on Sunday it’s time to preach The kingdom, not the president.
      All pastors should encourage their members to be aware and involved.

      “when the ungodly rule the righteous suffer”.

      Don’t agree with conservative change as you mention, should be Godly change. Conservatives don’t have it all right by any means.

      Report Post »  
  • beebacksoon
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:09am

    How many times have we seen presidents and other politicians standing at the podium of a church and/or cathedral? If pastors are restricted by law, politicians should be restricted from using the church to “preach” about the state!

    Report Post »  
    • ginsberg
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:24am

      Actually I dont think many modern presidents have spoken from the pulpit…i could be wrong but I cant think of any…

      Report Post »  
    • LibertyUSA1
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 11:12am

      right on…Billy Bob Clinton did it all the time!

      Report Post »  
  • Concerned Green Beret
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:08am

    The government, once again, telling us what we can say and what we cannot say, when, where, and how. Which of course is a complete violation of the constitution.

    Report Post »  
  • Bill Rowland
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:07am

    Explain to me why Jerimiah Wright continues to spew racial hatred and political opinion from his pulpit with complete impunity? Is it because he is black or that he was Obumblers pastor for so long. Has the IRS been told to ignore him by Timmy or Obumbler?
    Double standard again – a black man can‘t be racist so he can’t be breaking any laws.

    OMG – Psalm 109:8

    Report Post »  
    • Lonescrapper
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:42am

      word

      Report Post » Lonescrapper  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:58am

      Was thinkin that myself, a lot of black churches seem to do this ( I’m not against blacks). Mr, Jackson always seems to be speaking at Sunday services.

      Report Post »  
    • Chet Hempstead
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:00am

      Do you have any evidence of him ever telling his flock to vote for or against a specific candidate? All preachers are allowed to speak about political issues. After all, all political issues are moral issues to one degree or another. I’ve been in churches where the priests were very vocal about their conservative opinions. Most of those who avoid controversy do it more because they’re afraid of losing congregants than because they’re afraid of the government.

      Report Post »  
    • SlimnRanger
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:33am

      @Bill i was thinking the same thing,My pastor and i have some good talks about government issues and the president,but since we do have some people in Church that do support Obama,My pastor never talks about a cannidate and who we should vote for,I attend Church to hear the word of God preached,i don’t care to hear politics behind the pulpit,but he does stand up against sin when preaching such as abortion, homosexuality,adultry,and so on.

      Report Post »  
    • BernieKittyCat
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 6:27pm

      And what about Islam? Isn’t a part of their “religion” based on politics? Tax the mosques!

      Report Post » BernieKittyCat  
  • jedi.kep
    Posted on September 24, 2011 at 6:56am

    The Truth has no agenda. And it doesn’t care about being Tax free or not. Speak the truth. Period.

    Report Post » jedi.kep  
    • NewLife56
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 7:09am

      Ditto

      Report Post » NewLife56  
    • RepubliCorp
      Posted on September 24, 2011 at 8:57am

      This law has never been used against Lib or black churches so it would be hard to enforce. ACORN is setup as a 501c…………

      Report Post » RepubliCorp  
    • 59 Fender Pro
      Posted on September 26, 2011 at 3:10am

      my pastor has a way of deferring the issue to certain people in the congregation, and while we may not agree on all the issues, it seems that these issues and candidates fall in the laps of those that are qualified to give the truth behind it. I have had an Obama joke or two directed at me during a sermon, and while I will not tell a fellow church member that I hate him (I do Not), I will outline the 28 principles of the founders and let those who ask why I hate Obama come to their own conclusions. In some ways it is far more effective than the direct approach, it makes others ask questions, rather than go on a defensive. It opens minds, rather than directing opinion, therefor ging a more substantial viewpoint of the opinion one takes. It may not get 100% of us to vote in a direction, but it does force people to reason their stance on a given issue. It is a free opportunity at the education they were denied in our communist indoctrination centers,(public schools) and aren’t we better off letting each one reason their opinion against a Christian worldview?

      Report Post » 59 Fender Pro  
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