Pro-Santorum Pastor Is Under Fire for Saying Americans ‘Will Not Vote for a Mormon’
- Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:31pm by
Billy Hallowell
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The Rev. O’Neal Dozier has a “way” with words. The faith leader, who is backing GOP presidential candidate Rick Santorum, has allegedly made controversial comments about homosexuals, Islam and now — candidate Mitt Romney’s faith. In an interview with the Palm Beach Post following a speech that Santorum gave at his church, Dozier said that Romney can’t win the U.S. presidency because of his Mormon faith.
Rev. O’Neal Dozier
What started as an opportunity for Santorum to reach out to African Americans has ended in controversy following the reverend’s comments.
“You can look at the June Gallup poll that shows the people have already spoken – 22 percent of the electorate will not vote for a Mormon,” Dozier said. “The American people will not vote for a Mormon to be president of the United States.”
The Blaze has extensively covered Romney’s faith, as we‘ve explored to what degree it’s impacted his candidacy. While polls show that being a Mormon wouldn’t harm his chances in the general election, Dozier seemed certain it would.
The pastor went on to say that Romney would have a tough time gaining the support of the African American community, as he also maintained that the Mormon church is bigoted toward blacks. If given the ticket, Dozier seems to believe that Obama supporters will parade what he believe to be a racist viewpoint held within the Mormon church.
“Blacks are not going to vote for anyone of the Mormon faith,” he said. “The book of Mormon says the Negro skin is cursed.”
Following these comments, the Post article goes on to say:
From 1849 through 1978 the Church of Latter-Day Saints barred blacks from its priesthood. The church has lifted but not repudiated the policy.
In 1978, though, the church issued an official declaration following prayer and meditation that overturned the priesthood restrictions that once disallowed African American men from participating. A portion of the written description of the revelation read:
Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.
He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color. Priesthood leaders are instructed to follow the policy of carefully interviewing all candidates for ordination to either the Aaronic or the Melchizedek Priesthood to insure that they meet the established standards for worthiness.
Relations between African Americans and the Mormon church have been evolving and improving since this statement was issued. In a June 2011 New York Times article, Harvard University religion student Max Perry Mueller (he’s writing a dissertation on African-Americans and the Mormon church) said that the church has “made a very sincere effort” to include blacks.
In fact, just this month two black members of the church released a four-part DVD series that explains misconceptions as well as the history behind these policies.
This isn’t the first time Dozier has landed himself in headlines for making controversial comments. In one interview, he said, ”One day our grandchildren will live under the grips of sharia law. It’s coming our way. Islam has a plan, a 20-year plan, to take over America from within. And they’re doing it.”
Watch these comments, below (begins around 5:30):
In another video, he is seen defending the Tea Party and claiming that “God is not a socialist” and that “God is not a Robin Hood.”
Additionally, Dozier was allegedly quoted as saying that homosexuality is “something so nasty and disgusting that it makes God want to vomit” back in 2003 as well.
The most recent comments about Mormonism were made to the Post after Republican candidate Rick Santorum made his first Florida campaign stop at Dozier’s church. While at the house of worship, the conservative leader gave a faith-based sermon.
“He came to a predominately black church, and he began his campaign at the most impoverished, HIV-invested area of South Florida,” Dozier said of Santorum’s visit to the church. “That will be a big boost to blacks Americans. The conservative blacks want a man who is principled.”
Dozier also expressed that he might be open to a Gingrich ticket, though he expressed dome doubts.
(H/T: Post on Politics)
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Comments (406)
unpata
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:24pmpolitical bull**** in the name of religion…this pastor has false beliefs..i wonder how much he is getting paid
Report Post »VicksVaporub
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:56pmRick Santorum is Heaven’s BIG TOOL to wipe all heretics and barbarians from the planet.
Sanitarium 2012
Report Post »str8blues
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:18am@vicksvaporrub Simply loony! You need to go back to MSNBC where they can understand your lunacy, in fact they will embrace it. Here…….not so much.
Report Post »Baddoggy
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 8:20am@Vicksvaporrub…So you want religion legislated? What will you then do when the Muslims get ahold of power wnd start instituting Sharia Law? I am an Evangelical. I do NOT want Facism brought to power. How do you think Hitler came to power? Think man!
Report Post »rangerp
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 9:58amwe live in a day where speaking the truth makes a whole lot of people angry.
The false prophet Muhammed claimed that blacks were not worthy, and would not go to heaven.
From Islam:
“Therefore, the ***** nation are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because [Negroes] have little [that is essentially] human and have attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated.”[3]
Ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah, 14th century
“beyond [known peoples of black West Africa] to the south there is no civilization in the proper sense. There are only humans who are closer to dumb animals than to rational beings. They live in thickets and caves, and eat herbs and unprepared grain. They frequently eat each other. They cannot be considered human beings.”[3]
Ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah
http://www.angelfire.com/ill/hebrewisrael/blackmuslims.html
Report Post »mycomet123
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:23amJudging people by there religion is a BIG can of worms. Lets think about this —-Santorum is Catholic & sooooo is Nancy Pelosi–ENOUGH SAID!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »Vechorik
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 3:44pmRick Santorum is Tired of People Wanting a Small Government That Leaves People Alone
http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2012/01/20/rick-santorum-is-tired-of-people-wanting-a-small-government-that-leaves-people-alone/
———
Report Post »The next time Santorum says he did not vote for right to work because the people of his state did not want it, he needs to be reminded that he was a senator, not a representative and his job was not to represent the will of the people but the interests of his state. His defense is flawed.
Rick Santorum Logic: If 51% of the country want to be commies, then I will vote for communism.
————–
“If Cuba wants to open their door after the Castro’s die, the United States stands ready to embrace you with mountains of aid…” -Rick Santorum
————–
Santorum: Rape Victims Must “Make The Best Out Of A Bad Situation”
http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/santorum-rape-victims-must-make-the-best-out-of-a-bad-situation/politics/2012/01/23/33560
Geoffrey
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 3:10amI’m not so sure. I think he’s honestly speaking his mind, at least. Not afraid to speak up. I like that part about him. Refreshing. And I don‘t think he’s wrong about everything. Of course, criticizing a person’s faith is short-sighted: most folks want to focus on the issues, not religion, when it comes to voting.
Report Post »Hollywood
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 2:14pmI think the Pastor was misquoted myself. I think he said MORON, not MORMON,and he was referring to Obama
Report Post »AndYetItMoves
Posted on January 27, 2012 at 11:50amWell that ^ was about as funny as the great depression.
Report Post »But seriously, the man is right about the mormon church being bigoted, and it’s guilty of plenty more logical and moral fallacies. The only problem is that his comments about homosexuality and Islam convict him of the same brand of insanity.
Mr.Fitnah
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:19pmI cant vote for someone who cant be succinct in his answers, Mittens rambles like Obama
Report Post »mils
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:09pmi am always amazed when people speak for God. vomit?..really? i didn’t hear him say that…
Report Post »samuelwcordrey
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 2:57amRomans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto VILE affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Report Post »27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
commonsensefreethinker1
Posted on January 27, 2012 at 1:02pmHates homosexuals so read it and weap!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »Scott15sb
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:03pmThis pastor needs to be reminded of Luke 9: 49-50. John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”
Report Post »(Luke 9:49-50 ESV) In todays world, these are the Mormon’s. You will know them by their works.
Mutiny
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:40pmProblem here is the fact the guy was using Jesus Christ’s name. It was the real Jesus Christ. The one the Mormons sell is brother to Satan, son of a man, and normal men can become just like him. That is a different Jesus Christ.
Yes we know about the works of the Mormons. Lets also remember why you are doing works. You do them to become exalted. Once exalted you can become a god yourself and rule over your own planet. This is exactly why your faith is flawed. I dont do good works to get something in return.
Report Post »bullcrapbuster
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:21am@mutiny…we just know more about Jesus Christ than you do .You are held back by your own unbelief. You have copied and pasted this same ignorant statement so many time that it is beginning reveal your true motive as hatred for the Mormon church. I’ll wager that you are another pastor trying to hang on to his meal ticked by spreading lies and half truths.
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 1:09am@ Mutiny
Report Post »Mormons don’t seem to be your “type” of Christian. Understand, though, that while there is only one Jesus Christ, we mortals have adopted various understandings of Him.
(1) Homoousian — Nicean (“Trinitarian”) Christians (the majority of Christians).
(2) Homoiousian — Christians beleiving that Jesus and God the Father are of similar — but not the same — substance.
(3) Heteroousian — Christians believing that the substance and nature of God the Father and Jesus are different.
Traditionally, Homoousian Christians have been less accepting of other Christians. Not that there’s anything WRONG with that.
Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 1:20am@bull
LOL, not a pastor. Nothing I typed was copy and pasted. One of my best friends is a Mormon. I am trying to save his soul from hell.—— According to him, me being a evangelical Christian I will go to Heaven, but if evangelical Christians are correct, he will go to hell since he doesnt believe in Jesus Christ and God of the Bible.
Do you believe Jesus Christ and Satan are brothers?
Do you believe God used to be a man on another planet?
Do you believe you can become exalted and become a god?
If you believe those things you are not following the Jesus Christ and God of the Bible.
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 1:23am@ chuck
Honestly that is a far different thing that what Mormons believe.
Jesus Christ is not Satan’s brother. Use the Bible to prove me wrong.
God was not a man on another planet. Use the Bible to prove me wrong.
You cannot become a god. Use the Bible and prove me wrong.
Report Post »almatheyounger
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 8:46amI am a Christian and a Mormon. I believe the only way to Heaven is by the GRACE of Jesus Christ, Son of the ONE true God. I do not believe my works save me to the highest kingdom, no, it is only trough the grace of God and the atonement of Jesus Christ that I am saved. You pretend to know a lot about Mormons. You know NOTHING.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 9:18am“I am a Christian and a Mormon. I believe the only way to Heaven is by the GRACE of Jesus Christ, Son of the ONE true God. I do not believe my works save me to the highest kingdom, no, it is only trough the grace of God and the atonement of Jesus Christ that I am saved. You pretend to know a lot about Mormons. You know NOTHING.”
you sure about that???
One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).
As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements — ‘obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,’” (Articles of Faith, p. 79).
We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” (2 Nephi 25:23).
Report Post »Ebbertron
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 10:13amfor historical accuracy, it was actually the Gnostics who first espoused the idea that man was saved by grace alone, that nothing more was required. Of course, most christians dont like to hear that many of their most tightly held beliefs orriginated from apostate sects of fractured christianity.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 10:52am“for historical accuracy, it was actually the Gnostics who first espoused the idea that man was saved by grace alone, that nothing more was required. Of course, most christians dont like to hear that many of their most tightly held beliefs orriginated from apostate sects of fractured christianity.”
really, I didn’t know Jesus was a gnostic…
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
so was Paul I guess…
Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
what part of gift do you not understand?
Report Post »martinez012577
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 10:54am@alma
Do you believe you can become a god?
Do you believe Jesus Christ and Satan are brothers?
Do you believe God was once a man on another planet?
If you dont believe these things, you need to go read and find out what the Mormon faith preaches. If you do believe these things, you do not believe in the same Jesus Christ and God of the Bible.
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:04pm@ Ebbertron: “for historical accuracy, it was actually the Gnostics who first espoused the idea that man was saved by grace alone, that nothing more was required. Of course, most christians dont like to hear that many of their most tightly held beliefs orriginated from apostate sects of fractured christianity.”
Report Post »____________________
Interesting. I was aware of the Council of Nicea’s adoption of Gnostic philosophies in the man-created doctrine of the “Trinity,” but I didn’t know that Gnosticism had further influence in what is considered “traditional” Christianity. Thanks for the 411.
justin.blake
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 2:49pmActually Rush…if you want to be accurate, before he said that, she (Mary) had demonstrated her devotion by even washing His feet with her tears. She demonstrated her faith through her actions, and was proclaimed ‘saved’ by Jesus. Another instance is in John, when Christ stopped the stoning of the accused adulteress. After he dismissed the crowd, he told her to “go and sin no more” indicating a need for continued obedience (more ‘works’ if you will).
And Mutiny, why is it that you Evangelicals find any thread you can to disrespect Mormons and any other faith that is not your own? Did not the Lord tell you to love thy neighbor as thyself? I have seen more vitriol come from the mouths and keyboards of Evangelical Christians than any other faith combined, and you are certainly right there with the rest of them. I am sure your ‘best friend’ is doing fine, and his soul, as far as he is concerned, is safe. Your pity for him and his lost soul, however, is condescending and full of hubris. Get yourself right with God, and let others find Him without your venom. It just clarifies who is really the wolf in sheeps clothing.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 3:19pm“Actually Rush…if you want to be accurate, before he said that, she (Mary) had demonstrated her devotion by even washing His feet with her tears. She demonstrated her faith through her actions, and was proclaimed ‘saved’ by Jesus.”
but Jesus didn‘t proclaim her ’saved’ (as you put it) because of any action she did….Jesus doesn’t need to see actions..unlike us, He can see a man’s (or woman’s) heart. or don’t you think He can??
“After he dismissed the crowd, he told her to “go and sin no more” indicating a need for continued obedience (more ‘works’ if you will).”
But He didn’t tell her sinning no more would save her.
I notice you didn’t try to dispute what paul said….wise choice. Salvation is by grace, no works, no baptism, nothing you can do….its all Him….and faith and belief are not works…
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 3:27pm“Interesting. I was aware of the Council of Nicea’s adoption of Gnostic philosophies in the man-created doctrine of the “Trinity,” but I didn’t know that Gnosticism had further influence in what is considered “traditional” Christianity. Thanks for the 411.”
interesting that you believe that without anything to back it up…
I’ve got a bridge to sell ya…its real cheap, trust me!!!
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 3:30pmJustin.Blake;
Very nice!!!
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 4:19pmMutiny;
“Jesus Christ is not Satan’s brother. Use the Bible to prove me wrong.”
You need to discard the assumpton that the Bible teaches the Holy Trinity. Yes, the Father, Son, and holy Ghost are One God but one in purpose; not physical substance. The latter is nothing more than man’s philosophy dictating the teachngs o the Bible for the Bible itself does not teach any such thing; but the Bible is ample with passages that show unity between the Father and the Son. So if the Father and the Son are not “homoousian” (as Chuck Stein noted) tan how did the Son come to be? Before all things were created there was the Word who was *with* God and who was God. In the beginning there was the Father and with the Father was the Logos, or Word, or Son then through the Word was all things created. The Father created the Son and who but the Father created Satan? If the Father created the Son and Satan than that makes the Son and Satan brothers.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 4:30pmMutiny;
“God was not a man on another planet. Use the Bible to prove me wrong.”
There is no official LDS doctrine that teaches any such thing.
“You cannot become a god. Use the Bible and prove me wrong.”
Actually, you’re already a god. “34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10). That references Psalms 82:6, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” also, Jesus prayed that the faithful may be one with the Father *as* He is one with the Father and the Father in Him.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 4:35pm“The Father created the Son and who but the Father created Satan? If the Father created the Son and Satan than that makes the Son and Satan brothers”
this is another reason mormons aren’t christian…
Jesus said He is the first and the last…
Revelation 1:
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
the mormon jesus is not the Jesus of the bible.
and Jesus is the creator of all things…
1 colossians
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 5:12pmRush;
“this is another reason mormons aren’t christian…
Jesus said He is the first and the last…”
He sure is…
” 17 And as many as have received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God; and even so will I to as many as shall believe on my name, for behold, by me redemption cometh, and in me is the law of Moses fulfilled. 18 I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.” (3 Nephi 9)
“the mormon jesus is not the Jesus of the bible.
and Jesus is the creator of all things…”
He sure is…
“12 And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.” (Helaman 14)
So, why is is Mormons aren’t Christians?
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 6:08pm“Jesus said He is the first and the last…”
He sure is…
”
its not possible in mormon doctrine. The Father and the Son are different Gods…they are not one as in the bible…and according to the mormons..the Father came first…
Christ, the Firstborn, was the mightiest of all the spirit children of the Father Doctrine and Covenants 93:21-23.
The difference between Jesus and other offspring of Elohim is one of degree not of kind Doctrine and Covenants 93:21
how can Christ be a spirit child and the first and the last, when, according to mormon doctrine, the father came first, and Jesus is his spirit-child??
“and Jesus is the creator of all things…”
how can Jesus be the creator of all things when He is created?
“the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim.”
http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/god?lang=eng&letter=g
the mormon Jesus is not God almighty, the first and the last..he’s just another spirit child of the father, just like we are….this is clearly unbiblical…Jesus is uncreated God almighty…no Gods before, none after….and God is ONE…not 3 gods…and mormons will never be gods
Report Post »The citizen who cares
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 7:03pmWhy do people pick on the Mormons? Do your own research before you believe anyone on this comment board. Preferably on the church’s own site lds.org or mormon.org.
And BTW, the real name of the “mormon” church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Mormon” is a nickname title of the church.
Report Post »TangoBravo
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 7:09pmI’m sticking up for Mutiny on this one. Tell me LDS friends, isn’t it true that you believe all other churches called Christian are not the true church? Aren’t they called an Apostasy? Doesn‘t the book ’o’ Mormon explain quite clearly (and all your teachings) that everything else is wrong and your own prophets have said the most correct book is the book O’ Mormon not the Holy Bible which may be why it turns off most Christians? So why do Christians who say they don’t consider Mormonism true Christianity get bashed on so badly? It’s no different than what you come to my house on a weekly basis telling my kids that Mormonism is the only true church etc. so really… are ya sure you want to go there because that‘s what’s called hypocritical aka play acting.
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 7:48pm@ Rush-Is-Right
A BIT OF “A BRIDGE” TO FURTHER UNDERSTANDING:
In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases (hidden spiritual realities) came from Plato through the teachings of Valentinus (an early Gnostic theologian), who is quoted as teaching that God is three hypostases and three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:
“Now with the heresy of the Ariomaniacs, which has corrupted the Church of God… These then teach three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him ‘On the Three Natures’. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he is discovered to have filched this from Hermes and Plato.” [10]
Since Valentinus had used the term hypostases, his name came up in the Arian disputes in the fourth century. Marcellus of Ancyra, who was a staunch opponent of Arianism but also denounced the belief in God existing in three hypostases as heretical (and was later condemned for his views)[dubious – discuss][citation needed], attacked his opponents (On the Holy Church, 9) by linking them to Valentinus:
“Valentinus, the leader of a sect, was the first to devise the notion of three subsistent entities (hypostases), in a work that he entitled On the Three Natures. For, he devised the notion of three subsistent entities and three persons — father, son, and holy spirit.”
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 8:01pm@darren
Evangelicals arent coming on these threads to bash Mormons. We come to these threads out of love. If you are worshiping a different God and Jesus Christ then you go to hell. So we are trying to save you from eternal damnation. Unlike you, we think the Muslims, Hindu, Mormons, and Scientologists will all be in hell.
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 8:16pmEarly post was at Dustin. This one is for Darren.
So you think because God made something he is its father? So God made cows. He is father of cows? Cows make cow patties, is he the father of cow crap also?
The Mormon logic behind calling Jesus and Satan brothers is completely flawed. You believe that God with his Goddess had spirit babies. Problem is the Bible says we arent his children until we accept Jesus Christ from the Bibles as our lord and savior.
The fact you bring up John 10 34 like the rest of you mislead Mormons tells me alot. Lets review it.
In the time of Jesus, men who judged others on life and death sentences where called “gods”. Note the lower case. I have to ask in that verse, who’s law is it written in?
On to your siting Psalms 82:6. Yes it does say 6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’ But lets for a second look at the very next verse.
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
What real god dies like a mere mortal. Not the one from the Bible. Maybe the Mormon god, but not the one real God.
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 8:29pm@ citizen
Just because you say the name Jesus Christ and write it on a book doesnt mean anything. If you think you can become a god God was a man, and Satan and Jesus are brothers, you arent worshiping the same Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Oh and your founding prophet was and has been proven to be a false prophet. Oh and a crook. Oh and he cheated on his wife and practice polygamy before he got this “revelation” from the Mormon god. Oh and he was a child molester since one of his 33 wives was only 14.
If there was a story about a man taking a 14 year old wife on the blaze that wasnt a Mormon everyone would be like “gross, sick, thrown him in jail, string him up”. But since your false prophet did it, its ok?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 9:53pmRush;
“its not possible in mormon doctrine. The Father and the Son are different Gods…they are not one as in the bible…and according to the mormons..the Father came first…”
When Jesus is the “firstborn of many” in the pre-exitence, is He not Alpha? If He represents the Father between the Father and man, can He not call Himself Alpha? And the Father and the Son are not one in Mormonism as as in the Bible? Could you show me in the Bible where it says that they are the same physical substance for without that philosophy, the whole Holy Trinity come tumbling down.
Here’s D&C 93: ” 21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the abeginning with the Father, and am the bFirstborn;
“21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; 22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. 23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;”
Here we read that Jesus was with the Father “in the beginning” before anything or anyone else. We can also read in the Pearl of Great Price that through the “Only Begotten” the Father created all l things. From these two sources we have Jesus being Alpha (in the beginning with the Father before anything or anyone else) and by and through Him were all things (the heaven and earth) were created. (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 10:20pm(con’t);
“he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim”
Do to the Dead Sea Scrolls from the Qumran cave. These are now the oldest surviving texts of the Bible we have. In the KJV we read in Deuteronomy 32: 8-9, “When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 9 For the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.” According to the ‘number of the children of Isreal’. In the Quram cave tscrolls, this same passage reads slightly but significantly different: ” 8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of God. 9 For the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.“ LORD in the Old Testament refers to YHWH or ”Jehovah” in English. Christ is LORD and thus YHWH. So, even in Old Testament times we read of God Most High (El Elyon) who is the Father in the New Testament and YHWH who is Jesus in the New Testament. Even in old Testament times there were “two gods”. Jesus is the “God of Isreal and of the whole earth” as the Book of Mormon declares and serves the will of the Father in all things.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 10:38pmTangoBravo;
“I’m sticking up for Mutiny on this one.’
Well, at least you didn’t start to talk about “cow crap” like Mutiny did after your post. That’s Evangelical love, ya’ know.
mormons believe that The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and as it was restored to earth in modern times as it was in ancient times during Christ and His apostles. It is not the Christian churches which we believe God condemned but the creeds. Thiese would be the creeds of man applied to the scriptures which caused distortion and loss of plain and precious truths such as the absolute need for baptism, eternal marriages, and vicariously extending the covenants of the Lord to those who have departed this life not having that blessing. The LDS Church centers on Christ and that it is throug hthe family which the gospel primariy spreads forth.
The greatest accomplishment of the Book of Mormon is that it testifies of the truthfulnes of the Bible and restores plain and precious things such as the absolute need for baptism, the absolute need for apostles to uphold and preach the gospel of Christ and that Christ Himself was plainly manifested in times of the old and new testaments.
Take care and God bless.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 10:49pmMutiny;
“Evangelicals arent coming on these threads to bash Mormons. We come to these threads out of love.”
Oh, thanks.
“Unlike you, we think the Muslims, Hindu, Mormons, and Scientologists will all be in hell.”
If that’s your presupposition then, frankly, I don’t give a d*mn about your love. I think it’s way beyond human capacity to judge the eternal damnation of anyone, Evangelical, Mormon, Hindu, or Muslim. I‘ll allow you to make such judgements but as for me I’m entirely too inadequate to make them myself.
“So you think because God made something he is its father? So God made cows. He is father of cows? Cows make cow patties, is he the father of cow crap also?”
that comment is so deplete of intelligence and meaning that when I first read it I would have been completely justified to read no more. But then I decided that I should read and comment and let that sentence stand as a witness to the Evangelical love you freely offer me the lost Mormon soul. That you’d reduce the Holy One of Isreal to the status of beingthefather of “cow crap” in order to teach me the Lord’s truth in love. now, tell me, don’t Evangelicals believe that God create *ALL* things? If not then you needa chat with Rush-is-right, not me.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:03pm(con’t);
“Problem is the Bible says we arent his children until we accept Jesus Christ from the Bibles as our lord and savior.”
Sure it does. Your acknowledgement of John 10:34 which references Psalms 82:6 substantiates that belief. [Thou art] *children* of “the most High”. It wasn’t talking to just the faithful, in fact Jesus referenced it to the ungodly Jews accusing God himself of blasphemy in order to substantial his claim to be the Son of God.
“Lets review it.”
I’ve blogged a long time now and by and large when people say, “let’s review”, that’s usually when their replies start to slope down the quality scale.
“Note the lower case. I have to ask in that verse, who’s law is it written in?”
Yes, it is lowercase. But what did “the most High” consider us as His children? That would be “gods”. Mormonism teaches that nothing will surpass the Father in greatness and glory. The Father is and will for all eternity be the great supreme ruler of all that is and will be.
I already referenced whos law it was as did you in Plalms82:6. Then you say:
“But lets for a second look at the very next verse.
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
What real god dies like a mere mortal. Not the one from the Bible. Maybe the Mormon god, but not the one real God.”
now, let‘s look at the rest of my post you’re reviwing. If you love me, you will. (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:10pm(con’t);
Here’s what my post concluded: “Jesus prayed that the faithful may be one with the Father *as* He is one with the Father and the Father in Him.“ we are all ”gods” and yet we die a mortal death, very much so. To complete our deification we ned to be one with the Father *as* Jesus is one with the father. This is quite possible to so since Jesus Himself prayed to His Father andour Father / His god and our God for this to happen. Who is one with the Father in this mortal life? I only know of Jesus who was ever one with the Father throught His entire existence. That is why He is the “way, the truth and the light”. That is why no one can come unto the Father but by Him which the Bible and Book of Mormon plainly teach. One thing is clear, Jesus called sinners and the ungodly gods for they are children of “the most High”.
The way Jesus died according to Mormonism is exactly how He died according to evangelicalism. It’s in the Bible which is part of the LDS canon (Journal of Discourse, History of the Chrurch, Mormon Doctrine, etc are not and never were).
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:13pm“When Jesus is the “firstborn of many” in the pre-exitence, is He not Alpha? If He represents the Father between the Father and man, can He not call Himself Alpha?”
the Jesus of the bible was not born, not created. He always was, is and will be.
“And the Father and the Son are not one in Mormonism as as in the Bible? Could you show me in the Bible where it says that they are the same physical substance for without that philosophy, the whole Holy Trinity come tumbling down.”
you mormons are really hung up on the father having flesh and bones…he NEVER EVER did..He is Spirit….the Son took on human nature, and a physical body, the Father never did. the holy trinity stands as the cornerstone of christianity…those that deny it are NOT christian…like the mormons are not christian.
“and by and through Him were all things (the heaven and earth) were created. (con’t)”
again this is not possible, given that (from my previous link)
. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim.
you can’t create your brothers and sisters…so you are being disengenuous.
from the same link mormons say the father had a body of flesh and bones…nowhere in the bible does it say this.
the mormons have multiple gods..the God of the bible is ONE…Deuteronomy 6:4 hear o israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE.
the Father does NOT have spirit children…nowhere in the bible do you find this..
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:16pmMutiny;
RE: polygamy
14 was a very common age to marry in Joseph Smith’s time. In fact the legal age of consent (to marry) in Delaware at the time was 11. Also, thereis nO evidence anywhere that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with anyone but Emma. There’s no record, no journal entry, no relatives of those whom he married. None. All accusations made wereafter his death and at times, decades after his death.
But thanks for youre evangelical love. Next time please don’t bare false witness against your neighbor.
Thanx
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:18pm“, Elohim. All mankind are his children”
we are not his literal children…we have been adopted…
Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
“. Even in old Testament times there were “two gods”.”
oh please do you really think the Jews believe ‘two gods’ I posted deuteronomy 6:4
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
Report Post »“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for th
Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:32pmRush;
“the Jesus of the bible was not born, not created. He always was, is and will be.”
Mormons agree that Jesus always was, is and will be. although trinitarian, Margaret NBarker makesa keen observation regarding the old Testament: “The older faith of Isreal had known of God Most High and the mighty angels described as sons of God. The firstborn of these sons had been the LORD, the God of Isreal, sometimes described as ‘the Holy One of Isreal’. ‘Holy One’ meaning ‘angel’. The LORd and the angel of the LORD were the identical.” so, even in Old Testament times, Jesus was known as the “firstborn”.
http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf (See PDF page #14 – page 122 in the text)
“you mormons are really hung up on the father having flesh and bones…he NEVER EVER did..He is Spirit”
I’ve noticed before in another string that you shift arguments. Nobody here spoke about the Father having flesh and bones. The challenge to you is to show inthe Bible where it mentions that the Father and the Son are of the same physical substance. it never ever does, does it? Sucha notion is nothing more than the philosophies of man which the LDS Church as the restored Gosel of Jesus Christ dispenses. It is not biblical yet so many Christians treat it as the word of God revealed to true prophets of the Bible. Yet God never says any such thing.
(con’t)
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:34pm“you mormons are really hung up on the father having flesh and bones…he NEVER EVER did..He is Spirit….the Son took on human nature, and a physical body, the Father never did. the holy trinity stands as the cornerstone of christianity…those that deny it are NOT christian…like the mormons are not christian”
Report Post »I would agree that those who deny what you believe (the man-created concept of the “Trinity”) are certainly not GNOSTIC Christians (or gnostic-influenced Christians).
Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:46pm(con’t);
While you are correct that the Father never revealed inthe bible (nor the Book of Mormon) that He has flesh and bone, there are abundant anthromorphic descriptions of God in the Old and New Testaments. Furthermore, Christ said, “8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” (John 14). Jesus said this with flesh and bone. Why is it unchristian or unbiblical tho believe that since Jesus has flesh and bone, so does the Father?
“the holy trinity stands as the cornerstone of christianity…those that deny it are NOT christian…like the mormons are not christian. ”
You just nailed a big issue among Christians. The holy Trinity is the “cornerstone” of Christianity? I thought it was coming unto Christ. I thoughtthe best way to learn of the word f God is through the Bible; not ofurth century creeds. Yet, because of the creed, many Christians accept the creedal dogma as if it came from the Bible when it absolutely did not. Said creeds are nothing more than philosophies to explain or interpret the Bible; not take place ofthe bible which is what you just shown yourself to do. (con’t)
“He is Spirit….the Son took on human nature, and a physical body, the Father never did.”
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 11:50pm(con’t);
“you can’t create your brothers and sisters…so you are being disengenuous.”
If you read my posts you’ll see that I made a distinction of “anything” and ‘anyone”. I did nothing disingenuous. The Father created our spirits for that is why we call Him “Father”, and by and through Christ were all *things* made.
“Deuteronomy 6:4 hear o israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE. ”
Translate “Lord” to its original name, YHWH and mormons agree: YHWH is one, there is no other YHWH.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 12:15amRush;
It‘s getting late so I need to sign off and since it seems that this thread’s going to be pushed off The Blaze’s front page, I’ll most likely not return to it.
““. Even in old Testament times there were “two gods”.”
oh please do you really think the Jews believe ‘two gods’ I posted deuteronomy 6:4″
Yes, two Gods. Monotheists “Deuteronomists’ gave us the Masoreti texts ofthe Old Testament which conflated Elohim and YHWH but the two should remain distinct. Christians understood this but not the Jews. Jews today are very strict monotheists and do not even acept the Trinity, the One god you say was preached since Old Testament times.
You are correct, there is no other “Yahweh”. He is the God of Isreal andthe Jesu of the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. Before Yahweh there was no other God formed for Elohim, (the Father in the new Testament and the Book of Mormon) was not formed for He created all. Yahweh is the Son of Elohim, God Most High (El Elyon); and so are we. It is through Yahweh (the Son) that we come unto Elohim (the Father) and there is no other way unto the Father but by the Son, the Hoyl one of Isreal.
“Yahweh is one [echad]‘
Exactly! “Echad” is the Hebrew word for “unified”, not a numeric “one” or else it would have said, “yachid”. Likewise the Father and Son are “one” in the New Testament not in a “mono” or numeric “one” but in a “hen” or “united” oness.
Good night and God bless you and y
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 12:34am@ Darren
Report Post »While I regret the venom that can be put onto Blaze postings, I really am fortunate to get to read your posts. Enlightening. From your last post, I suppose that you won’t read this, but I will thank you again at a later time.
rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:03am“I would agree that those who deny what you believe (the man-created concept of the “Trinity”) are certainly not GNOSTIC Christians (or gnostic-influenced Christians).”
nice lie…the trinity is througout the bible, both old testament and new.
“Mormons agree that Jesus always was, is and will be. ”
again this is not possible in mormon doctrine….from that same link…
, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim
first off, God doesn‘t have ’spirit children‘ and if Jesus is a ’spirit child’ of the Father, then the father had to precede the son…..again this is clearly unbiblical…
“The difference between Jesus and other offspring of Elohim is one of degree not of kind Doctrine and Covenants 93:21
“Human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh. . . . There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the Elder Brother of the rest of mankind James Talmage, Articles of Faith, 426.
again this is totally unbiblical…Jesus is not our ‘brother’ He’s our God…He‘s not an ’offspring’ He was not created, nor procreated….clearly mormon doctrine is that Jesus is a created being.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:08am“I’ve noticed before in another string that you shift arguments. Nobody here spoke about the Father having flesh and bones”
mormon doctrine clearly says that….
“: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (D&C 130:22–23).”
“The challenge to you is to show inthe Bible where it mentions that the Father and the Son are of the same physical substance. ”
Jesus continually talks about Him and the father being one….your ‘physical substance’ is a ruse…you have a god in your own image.
“it never ever does, does it? Sucha notion is nothing more than the philosophies of man which the LDS Church as the restored Gosel of Jesus Christ dispenses. ”
your cult is the only one hung up on this….real christians dont’ think this is an issue at all. we don’t try to understand what spirit is made of….
“It is not biblical yet so many Christians treat it as the word of God revealed to true prophets of the Bible. Yet God never says any such thing.”
nothing about your cult is biblical. I notice you ignored all those verses from the OT about God being One..and there being no other gods…no surprise
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:15am“Jesus said this with flesh and bone. Why is it unchristian or unbiblical tho believe that since Jesus has flesh and bone, so does the Father?”
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
but then scripture doesn’t really matter to the mormons…oh no they have their own books and their ‘new revelation’ from their false prophets smith and young.
“You just nailed a big issue among Christians. The holy Trinity is the “cornerstone” of Christianity? I thought it was coming unto Christ.”
what Christ? the muslim christ? the mormon christ? the JW christ? or the Christ of the bible? if you get the nature of God wrong, you get everything else wrong…as mormon doctrine clearly demonstrates. mormons have a god in your own image…you don’t serve the God of the Bible.
” I thoughtthe best way to learn of the word f God is through the Bible; not ofurth century creeds.”
those ‘4th centruy creeds’ reflect the truth of the bible…and I‘d rather have those creeds than those 19th century false prophecies wouldn’t you? oh no thats right you’ll stick with the false prophets.
“Yes, two Gods. Monotheists ”
this shows you are cleary unbalanced…you can’t be a monotheist and have 2 gods…I mean seriously…you are blowing smoke….trying to use a large number of words to be as deceptive as possible…I can tell you’re a good mormon…
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:22am‘Exactly! “Echad” is the Hebrew word for “unified”, not a numeric “one” or else it would have said, “yachid”
because the trinity isn’t One Person…3 Persons…One God…you don’t understand the trinity, obviously…preferring to have a god in your image….if your mormon father god was god, then the word would be yachid…one…alone…because your god is separate…
The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/god?lang=eng&letter=g
so if mormon doctrine was true, then the word yachid would have been used, because your god is separate and alone…the God of the Bible is 3 persons…in One God….a unity….never alone…
your own words refute mormon doctrine, and you don’t even realize it…thanks for supporting the truth of the trinity!
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 12:30pmChuck;
¡De nada!
I enjoyed your insights on Gnosticism as well. That’s an area I desire to learn more about.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 1:24pmRush;
Flesh and Bone – You changed arguments midstream yet despite this I addressed your change in argument. As for what spirit is made of, Mormonism has what’s probably the most profound and etailed description of what spirit is made of. There are specific pasages I the Bible which make little to no sense without a belief in a pre-mortal existence (“spirit babies” as it has been phrased o this thread). The pre-mortal existence used to part of the belief system of many prominent early Christians until around the 6th century when it officially condemned that belief. Regarding the pre-mortal existence, we read about Abraham having a vision from the Lord in which Abraham saw intelligences: “I [the Lord] rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.” (Abraham 3:21-23) (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 1:33pm(con’t);
Simply put, spirit is intelligence. You and I are spirit clothed if flesh and bone but are spirit. Amongthe intelligences Abraham saw, God was the greatest, most intelligent and from this twe can conclude He was and always will be El Elyon (“God Most High”). Regadring the role of Jesus Christ, Abraham’s vision continued: “24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;” (Abraham 3:24). Jesus Christ (YHWH) offered to carry out he will of the Father (Elohim / El Elyon) and create a world forthe intelligences to dwell. That is our present state at this present moment. Both you and I are dwelling on the world YHWH created to glorify Elohim and did so all under the direction of the the Father (Elohim). That is the nature of spirit.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 1:53pmRush;
The Hoyl Trinity – You still cannot show me in the Bible where the father and the Son are one in physical substance. If you read the Nicene Creed and remove “same substance” you pretty much have a precise descrition of te Mormon concept oftheGodhead; yet where in the Bible is there “same substance”? Feel free to use whatever Bible edition or version your desire, you won’t find it. So why is the holy Trinity upheld as if the trinitrarian formula came directly from the mouth of God? It’s an extra biblical philosophy and if it was taght since the Old Testament then why are Jews strict monotheists? Why was Jesus accused of blashpemy when He was the incarnation ofthe God of Isreal? Simpyl put, the Holy Trinity was not taught in the Old Testament, nor in the New but sinceConstantine andthe counsel of bishops said that’s what the Bible says than the dogma of the trinitarian formula superceeds doctrine divinely revealed to prophets of old. Without the delcaratin “same substance” there fundamentally s no Holy trinity and so without “same substance” declared in the Bible than you are left wit an extra biblical declaration dictating the interpretation of the Bible declaring it teaches something while remaining void the most essential part of that teaching.
(con’t)
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 2:11pm‘Flesh and Bone – You changed arguments midstream yet despite this I addressed your change in argument.”
I didn’t change any argument on this issue…its totally unbiblical end of story.
“There are specific pasages I the Bible which make little to no sense without a belief in a pre-mortal existence (“spirit babies” as it has been phrased o this thread).”
the bible does not talk about a pre-mortal existence for anyone, other than Jesus…sorry..
and if you had a pre-mortal existence…then you are calling Jesus a liar..
John 1:18: No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 8:23: And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
“(Abraham 3:21-23) ”
oh yeah the words of a false prophet smith…meaningless.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 2:28pm“The Hoyl Trinity – You still cannot show me in the Bible where the father and the Son are one in physical substance. ”
you can’t show me where they are not….so? the trinity doesn‘t rest upon members of the Godhead being ’one in physical substance’ this is another smokescreen. again you are trying to imagine a god in your own image.
“If you read the Nicene Creed and remove “same substance” you pretty much have a precise descrition of te Mormon concept oftheGodhead; ”
not at all…mormons are polytheistic…Christians are monotheistic.
“why is the holy Trinity upheld as if the trinitrarian formula came directly from the mouth of God?
Because it did…its like this..the Father is God…the Son is God..the Holy Spirit is God…all eternal…none was created as the mormons say jesus was…all are One God in 3 persons.
“It’s an extra biblical philosophy and if it was taght since the Old Testament then why are Jews strict monotheists”
Christians are strict monotheists too…mormons are not.
“Why was Jesus accused of blashpemy when He was the incarnation ofthe God of Isreal? Simpyl put, the Holy Trinity was not taught in the Old Testament, nor in the New but sinceConstantine a”
this is just laughable…the same old lies about christianity…
your own post about ECHAD proves that the trinity is taught in the OT…
Isaiah 9:
6 For to us a child is born,
Report Post »to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his
rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 2:29pm6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
do mormons call Jesus the Everlasting Father? hmmm?? no they do not….because your gods are separate…the God of Christiantiy is ONE.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 2:34pmoh and that whole LIE about the trinity only being since the 4th century…
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
“We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation… [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Origen (185-254).
“Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification…” (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 2:39pmClement Of Alexandria said:
“And the address in the Timœus calls the creator, Father, speaking thus: ‘Ye gods of gods, of whom I am Father; and the Creator of your works.’ So that when he says, ‘Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third,’ I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.” (The Stromata, Book 5, Chapter 14)
Hippolytus said:
“Christ, he means, the wisdom and power of God the Father, hath builded His house, i.e., His nature in the flesh derived from the Virgin, even as he (John) hath said beforetime, ‘The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.’ As likewise the wise prophet testifies: Wisdom that was before the world, and is the source of life, the infinite ‘Wisdom of God, hath builded her house’ by a mother who knew no man – to wit, as He assumed the temple of the body….And again, ‘She hath mingled her wine’ in the bowl, by which is meant, that the Saviour, uniting his Godhead, like pure wine, with the flesh in the Virgin, was born of her at once God and man without confusion of the one in the other. ‘And she hath furnished her table:’ that denotes the promised knowledge of the Holy Trinity….” (On Proverbs 9:1)
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 2:41pmTheophilus (died ca. A.D.181)
In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity (i.e. triados), of God, and His Word, and His Wisdom. (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chap. 15)
Gregory Thaumaturgus, Bishop of Neo-Caesareia in Pontus (died ca. A.D. 270)
(1) All (the persons) are one nature, one essence, one will, and are called the Holy Trinity; and these also are haines subsistent, one nature in three persons, and one genus. But the person of the Son is composite in its oneness (i.e. unita est), being one made up of two, that is, of divinity and humanity together, which two constitute one. Yet the divinity does not consequently receive any increment, but the Trinity remains as it was. (On the Trinity, Fragment from the Discourse)
Novatian of Rome (died ca. A.D. 280)
Report Post »For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, Chapter XI)
rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 3:00pmnow compare Isaiah 9 with this:
Isaiah 45:
21 Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.
22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
the bible doesn‘t say ’we are God and there is no other’ it speaks of a singular, yet the Son is God, and the Father is God….only the trinity makes sense…the mormon notion of multiple gods clearly defies what the bible says.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 3:34pm(con’t);
“first off, God doesn‘t have ’spirit children‘ and if Jesus is a ’spirit child’ of the Father, then the father had to precede the son…..again this is clearly unbiblical…”
First off, I used Mormon doctrine to showe that the Father and Son are co-eternal as spirit is eternal. Second, as I said before, there are specific passages in the bible which make little to no sense without the knowledge of the pre-mortal spiritual existence.
Job is a character known for his suffering. At one point he wanted to “curse God and die”. But Job repented and prclaimed the nothingness of man and greatness of God. At one moment of comfort the Lord said, to this poor wafaring man, “4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the acorner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38). Why would God use this to comfort Job other tha to rassure Job that he was with God before the world as God showed forth His power and Job, with the sons of God rejoiced?
(con’t)
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 3:42pmFirst off, I used Mormon doctrine to showe that the Father and Son are co-eternal as spirit is eternal.
its not possible in mormon doctrine….they are separate Gods…only in the Trinity are they co-eternal…because only God is eternal…and God is One…not 3 separate beings.
“Second, as I said before, there are specific passages in the bible which make little to no sense without the knowledge of the pre-mortal spiritual existence.”
so you say Jesus is lying.
“Why would God use this to comfort Job other tha to rassure Job that he was with God before the world as God showed forth His power and Job, with the sons of God rejoiced? ”
you realize that verse argues against pre-mortal existence, right? because God is telling Job, you weren’t around when I was doing all of this…
you really don’t seem to understand what you are posting….you just throw mormon talking points against the wall and hope something sticks….
and those ‘sons of God’ are angels…are you saying God is an angel?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 3:45pm(con’t);
When coming upon a blind man the apostles of Jesus asked the Master, ” 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John9). How could this man have sinned *to be born* blind unless this an existed before he he was born in order to sin? Note that there was no doctrinal correction by the Master regarding His apostles’ belief in a pre-mortal life. The master only pointed out that the man was born blind so that he can witness the miracle of God in his life.
Returning toe the Old Testament, we read of Jeremiah: ” 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jeremiah 1). Note the smilarity of this doctrine to that of Abraham 3:21-24. Why would God “ordain” and “sanctify” a being who did not exist? I guess gGod *could* ordain and snctify a nonexisting being to be a leader of nations but it simply makes much more sense to me that Jeremiah existed somewhaere and at some time before being “formed…in the belly” and God ordained and sanctified him to be a prophet of God while in mortality.
The pre-mortal life you and I had is quite real and definitely places meaning behind the purpose of life in mortality.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 3:47pm“All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as Lord (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim”
this shows that the mormon jesus can’t be eternal…he’s merely another offsping of the father, just as we are….since the mormon jesus is the eldest of the spirit children……and the mormon jesus is our brother……
just by saying Jesus is the ELDEST…mormons are admitting Jesus is not eternal….the Eternal God is not old, nor young..He is everlasting…Age is meaningless when talking about God.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 3:52pm“2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John9). How could this man have sinned *to be born* blind unless this an existed before he he was born in order to sin? Note that there was no doctrinal correction by the Master regarding His apostles’ belief in a pre-mortal life. ”
the apostles didn’t believe in a pre-mortal life…and I really don’t see how you get this from this scripture. Jesus is saying the man didn’t sin….and his blindness has nothing to do with sin….you really are desperate. wow.
as far as Jeremiah…yeah God knows the future, so?
again if man was a pre-mortal spirit, why did Jesus says no one has seen the Father? hmmm??? I notice you can’t answer that…no surprise…
learn the lesson of Jacob and Esau…
Romans 9:
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
God knew us before He created the world..not because we already existed, but because HE knows the future.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 4:09pmRush;
“John 1:18: No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. ”
Except for when they did: “30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32). Perhaps Jacob didn’t understand the scriptures.
““(Abraham 3:21-23) ”
oh yeah the words of a false prophet smith…meaningless.”
Unless he wasn’t a false prophet. It’s the Sopirit of the Lord which confirms truth spoken by the prophets. I know by the Spirit that the Book of mormon is tru and tha Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.
“‘Flesh and Bone – You changed arguments midstream yet despite this I addressed your change in argument.”
I didn’t change any argument on this issue…its totally unbiblical end of story.”
It’s not “totally” unbiblical. If the Son and the Father are one (mono0 God than that means God has flesh and bone, or is only the Second Person of the Trinity have flesh and bone but not the first? If so than why are the persons of the Trinity not equal but the Trinity itself equal in the persons of it? The trinitaria formulation has many aspects right but as soon as it uses man’s philisophy to fill in the gaps than it is no longer doctrinal but philisophical. The Nicene Creed took Christianity from a doctrinal foundation to a philisophical one wheras events like the Sermon on the Mount was entirely doctrinal.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 4:17pm“Except for when they did: “30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32). Perhaps Jacob didn’t understand the scriptures.”
oh so you are saying Jesus is lying…ok.
“Unless he wasn’t a false prophet. It’s the Sopirit of the Lord which confirms truth spoken by the prophets. I know by the Spirit that the Book of mormon is tru and tha Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.”
really, then why did he lie about this?
and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189). See context. i.
Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.
“It’s not “totally” unbiblical. If the Son and the Father are one (mono0 God than that means God has flesh and bone, or is only the Second Person of the Trinity have flesh and bone but not the first?”
Because thats what Jesus said…again you’re calling HIM a liar…you mormons do that qutie often…..
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 4:17pmRush;
“you can’t show me where they are not….so”
I don’t have to show you where they are not. You are the one who said that the Holy Trinity is the coerstone of Christianity. I say it’s the cornerstone of traditional Christianity; that Christianity is centerwe around Jesus Christ. Mormonism is entirely and competely ceneterd around Jesus Christ and therefore it is Christian. to say it is not mplies that someo ther deity is its focal point when it is not. Mormonism is not traditional Christinity but it is etirely Christian.
Just like the premortal-existence, there are passages in the bible which make much more sense when one thinks of the Father and the Son as two separate beings. God di not speak to Himself in first person plural when He said “let us make man in our image”. God did not declare Himself His beloved Son from heaven when the Son was baptized on earth. When Jesus said the only the Father is great after benihg calledgreat by believers, Jesus was not saying God is greater than Himselg. When Jesus said His God and our God and His Father and our Father about Himself. God is not a being who knows the time of Jesus‘ second coming but also doesn’t know the time f Jesus’ second coming. In each f these instances, scripture makes much more sense in the lense of the Father and the Son being two separate beings yet one in complete unity (echad / hen).
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 4:19pm“The trinitaria formulation has many aspects right but as soon as it uses man’s philisophy to fill in the gaps than it is no longer doctrinal but philisophical. The Nicene Creed took Christianity from a doctrinal foundation to a philisophical one wheras events like the Sermon on the Mount was entirely doctrinal.”
uh huh….and verses like Jacob seeing God, and Jesus denying that anyone has seen God only make sense in the trinity. just like you have no explanation for Jesus being called the Eternal Father…yet in mormonism they are separate gods….
I notice you’re not answering much of what I post…gee I wonder why….LOL
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 4:30pmRush;
“not at all…mormons are polytheistic…Christians are monotheistic. ”
Not true. Jews and Muslims are monotheistic, at least far more stricter than Christians. Mormons do believe in more than one God, this is true but in worship, they are very monotheistic for all things glorify the one mono Father yet traditional Christianity cannt thin of the Father withut thnking also of two other diivine persons fo the same physical substance. That is not monotheistic but henotheistic.
“Because it did…its like this..the Father is God…the Son is God..the Holy Spirit is God…all eternal…” That’s exatly what Mormons believe but as soon as you add of the same substance, you take this outside doctrine and into philosophy. “Same substance” is not in the Bible and therefore the only way to say affirmitively this *IS* God’s nature is to take philosophy and uphold it on par with scripture doctrine. To say that this is from God‘s mouth is to say that the nicene Creed is 4th century revelation and if you do that ten you’re actually upholding an important tenet of Mormonism over that of traditional Christianity.
“all are One God in 3 persons.” Neither is that in the Bible. The Bible teaches the Father, Son, and Holy Sopirit are “one”; not “One God in three persons”.
(con’t)
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 4:54pm@ Darren:
Report Post »“You are the one who said that the Holy Trinity is the coerstone of Christianity. I say it’s the cornerstone of traditional Christianity; that Christianity is centerwe around Jesus Christ. Mormonism is entirely and competely ceneterd around Jesus Christ and therefore it is Christian. to say it is not mplies that someo ther deity is its focal point when it is not. Mormonism is not traditional Christinity but it is etirely Christian.”
____________________________________________________________
True enough. In reading Blaze postings for over a year, two terms repeatedly spark dispute regarding definition: “Conservative” and “Christian”
Posters say that THEY are “Christian” or “Conservative” but that another poster (or candidate of another poster) is NOT “Christian” or “Conservative”. One term that is used in the definition game is “traditional.” Thus, Trinitarian Christians assert that they are the “traditional Christians.” Similarly, “traditional” conservatives espouse a robust international presence. Along comes a Ron Paul supporter who says that RP is the “most conservative” or the “true conservative” because RP’s policies are most in keeping with the Constitution (no foreign entanglements, in particular). Paul is, however, more accurately termed a “paleoconservative.” Similarly, non-Trinitarian (“primitive”?)Christianity is most in keeping with the Bible, but Trinitarian Christianity is “traditional” (having been establi
Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 5:16pm(con’t);
“all eternal…none was created ” Eternal, yes, uncreated, no. Mormons do not believe in ex-nihilio therefore do not believe that Jesu was created out of nothing. Jesus is eternal as the Father is eternal for spirit is eternal.
“Christians are strict monotheists too…mormons are not.” No,. Christians are NOT strct monotheists. If they were there would be no room of any being being the begotten Son of God. not in a long shot.
“your own post about ECHAD proves that the trinity is taught in the OT…”
Echad means ‘unity” which is exactyly what Mormons believe. You cited Isaiah 9:6 and ask if Mormons called Jesus the very titles given hm in that verse. To best answerthat, let’s sing about it, shall we?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSlIx7xqANg
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 5:28pm(con’t);
Now, you bring up Isaiah 9:6 and cite the Masoretic text but it is nteresting to read it from the Greek Septuagint: “For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.” and in verse 7: “His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to establish it and support it with judgment and with righteousness from henceforth and forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.” All the names given in the Masoretic text are titles of purpose in fatherhood; not the eternal nature of the Godhead.
“do mormons call Jesus the Everlasting Father? hmmm?? no they do not….because your gods are separate…the God of Christiantiy is ONE.”
Also, yes, we do call Jesus the “Father”, scripturally.”14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.” (Ether 3:14) (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 5:37pm(con’t);
Another LDS scripture referring to Jesus as the Father is Mosiah 15:2-3). this scriptre explains why Jesu is bot the Father ad the son: ” 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—” It has nthing to do with the Father and the Son being one physical substance but in purpose of the two beings being one.
“oh and that whole LIE about the trinity only being since the 4th century…
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.”
Wonderful. Tertullian eventally left the Christian Church for reasons I do not think anyone knows but left he did. The word “trinity is fine. Mormons are trinitarians since “trinity” means a group of three. tertullian was not reconciled before the Christian Church until long after his death under St. Augistine I believe (Augustine at first heavily resisted Christianity since many taught of the corporeality of God but when asugustine found out a segment of Christians taught that God had no body parts. This complied with Augistin’es Hellionistic upbriniging. and so found joy in its practice among Christians).
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 5:55pmRush / Joe (con’t);
Terutullian’s beliefs did not go far in his time but his language was eventually adopted by the Christian Church in formulating the trinitarian formula.
Tertullian taught that Jesus was created by the Father though Jesus was always with the Father in the Father’s thoughts. Tertullian’s teaching of substance refered tothe corporeality of the Father, So , and Holy Ghost. This corporeality would have made Origen drop his jaw in disbelief for, like augustine, Origen was heavily influenced by Helonistic philosophy. While Origen definitely believed that the Son subordinated Himself to the Father (a big no no in the historic trinitarian belief), he did not believe God had a body.
Clement too believe in subordination of the Son to the Father and in the separate distinct nature of the Father and Son. Beyond that I know he was influeced by Greek philosophy. In your own citation he cites a lot from Plato.. The other two I do not know bt i did notice a trend. The latter in post biblical time passed, te more the early Christian fathes spoke of a trinity and “persons” of that trinity. Also, the Christian Church was influenced more and more by Greek philosophy at this time (there’s no disagreement on that). All this falls well within the LDs teaching of the Great Apostasy. That apostles and prophets are always needed to remain to true doctrine.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 6:04pmRush / Joe;
Regarding Isaiah 45:9…
“Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me. ”
Mormons agree!!!
LORD = YHWH = Jesus
Yes, Jesus is the “God and Savior” of all and no other being is God like Him and this will forever be.
“14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.” (3 Nephi 11)
Plus, do not forget Jesus Himself said the following: “17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (John 20). Jesus aknowledged “[His] God and Father (uniquly distinct from our Father and God but He still aknowledges He had one). Also, “28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14). Jeus’ Father (See John 20:17) is greater that He.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 6:12pm“I don’t have to show you where they are not. You are the one who said that the Holy Trinity is the coerstone of Christianity. I say it’s the cornerstone of traditional Christianity; that Christianity is centerwe around Jesus Christ. Mormonism is entirely and competely ceneterd around Jesus Christ and therefore it is Christian”
this is beyond laughable….mormonism is NOT christian…and you consider the rest of us apostate…and your ‘jesus’ isn’t the Jesus of the bible…as I have repeatedly demonstrated. you’re not christian, and the rest of the christian churches do not accept you as christian.
“they are very monotheistic for all things glorify the one mono Father yet traditional Christianity cannt thin of the Father withut thnking also of two other diivine persons fo the same physical substance. That is not monotheistic but henotheistic. ”
this is just another lie…I mean seriously we don’t think of the trinity in terms of the same physical substance…its just absurd…like so much of what you post is.
I notice you totally ignored my posts about pre-nicene christians and the trinity…no surprise, you just go onto the next lie.
“Just like the premortal-existence, there are passages in the bible which make much more sense when one thinks of the Father and the Son as two separate beings”
uh no, given the multitude of verses that say there is ONE GOD…thats what Jesus himself said…you just babble on and on….without really saying an
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 6:20pm“If you read my posts you’ll see that I made a distinction of “anything” and ‘anyone”. I did nothing disingenuous. The Father created our spirits for that is why we call Him “Father”, and by and through Christ were all *things* made.”
so you admit the father created jesus’ spirit. again the mormom jesus is a created being. the real Jesus created everything…including US. the mormon jesus is a figment of your imagination. you have to latch onto the name of Jesus because its the only thing that gives your false prophecies and false cult any legitimacy.
“Christians are strict monotheists too…mormons are not.” No,. Christians are NOT strct monotheists. If they were there would be no room of any being being the begotten Son of God. not in a long shot.”
uh yes we are…we believe in ONE GOD. not 3.
“Echad means ‘unity” which is exactyly what Mormons believe. You cited Isaiah 9:6 and ask if Mormons called Jesus the very titles given hm in that verse. To best answerthat, let’s sing about it, shall we?”
uh no you don’t…your own scriptures say SEPARATE…what about SEPARATE do you not understand??? if the mormon god existed the bible would use the word YACHID…because your gods are SEPARATE..from your own scripture..
We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead
again separate…not a unity…..I mean really you’re lying about your own scripture.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 6:29pm“Now, you bring up Isaiah 9:6 and cite the Masoretic text but it is nteresting to read it from the Greek Septuagint: ”
uh huh…more diversions…are you a greek or hebrew scholar? didn’t think so…so again you’re just blowing smoke to try to distort the issue. oh and the OT was written in HEBREW…not greek…sorry
in other words you can’t dispute what I say, so you have to try to put up a smokescreen…you sure sound like a good liberal.
“Also, yes, we do call Jesus the “Father”,”
thus proving what an incomprehensible mess your theology is…according to mormon theology Jesus is our brother…we’re from the same Father…
I can’t believe anyone could believe mormonism…its just laughable.
“Wonderful. Tertullian eventally left the Christian Church for reasons I do not think anyone knows but left he did. ”
uh who cares? he defended and defined the trinity, which you say was a 4th century invention…again you just try to blow smoke and distort the issue…if you had any integrity you would apologize for spreading the lie that the trinity was a 4th century invention.
““Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me. ”
Mormons agree!!!
LORD = YHWH = Jesus
”
obviously mormons do NOT agree…otherwise they wouldn’t say there are separate gods…and mormons wouldn’t think they could become gods then, if you really agreed with this verse…its clear
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 6:34pm““Because it did…its like this..the Father is God…the Son is God..the Holy Spirit is God…all eternal…” That’s exatly what Mormons believe but as soon as you add of the same substance, ”
its obvious you don’t believe this…..how can Jesus be Eternal when the mormons talk about him as being ELDEST???
you didn’t answer this…no surprise you can’t.
and I notice you didn’t say about you calling Jesus a liar….again…was Jesus lying when He said, no one has seen the father at any time?? hmmm????
nothing about that false prophet smith…no surprise…
and nothing about you calling Jesus a liar again when He said God is spirit….
(not flesh bones)
oh you really should attribute the things you post…its rather apparent you are just posting talking points….plagiarism is rather tacky…..
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:05pmRush / Joe;
“uh huh….and verses like Jacob seeing God, and Jesus denying that anyone has seen God only make sense in the trinity”
Huh? Did Jacob see God or not? And spare me any crack about me calling Jesus a iar. You‘re just the same propagandist posterboy with a different username who likes to go around and call people a liar if they don’t believe in the Holy Trinity. Your fingerprints are way too obvious.
What Bible verse says that no man has seen God? I’m familiar with a passage that no one has seen theFather and no one has seen god and lived but what exactly are you referring to?
Take a pick:
http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm
“I notice you’re not answering much of what I post…gee I wonder why”
Cuz you’re presemptuous and impatient? So was Joe.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:29pm“this is beyond laughable….mormonism is NOT christian (snip) as I have repeatedly demonstrated. you’re not christian, and the rest of the christian churches do not accept you as christian”
You have shown we are not *traditional* Christians and to that end I completely agree with you. But Jesus Christ is the center of LDS theology if that does not define a people as Christian then the Holy Trinity has no hope whatsoever. “Holy Trinity” is not even mentioned once in the bible. Neither is “three person in one God”. But “Jesus Christ” is mentioned quite predominantly in the Bible.
And say hello to some heritics:
“In a prerecorded statement about the Church’s welfare department, the Most Rev. John C. Wester, bishop of the Salt Lake Catholic Diocese, said, “They’re always there where the need is. They’re motivated by the gospel of Christ.””
http://newsroom.lds.org/article/catholic-community-services-honors-humanitarians
Krister Stendahl
Dean of Divinity Emeritus
Harvard College
Begin @ 1:16 mark
‘I feel that, that the Mormon experience of the temple has sort of restored that meaning to the word temple…[In] 1 Corinthians 15, eh, [when] Paul speaks about those who baptize themselves for the dead, and, uh ,obviously takes for granted anything that, eh, that there were people who did so and he has no complaint about it. Now with the mormon we have it again as a practice…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x_-TQivCx8
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:33pm“Huh? Did Jacob see God or not?”
huh was Jesus lying or not?
newsflash it only makes sense in light of the trinity…as I already said…
and don’t forget the whole part about Jesus calling God a spirit…I’ve already posted the verses…
john 4;24….yet you say God has flesh and bones…
“You‘re just the same propagandist posterboy with a different username who likes to go around and call people a liar if they don’t believe in the Holy Trinity. Your fingerprints are way too obvious. ”
paranoi will destroy ya…yeah we are legion…LOL….looks like that joe guy is living rent-free in your mind…he must have REALLY gotten to you…but apparently the truth has little effect upon you…
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:39pm““I notice you’re not answering much of what I post…gee I wonder why”
Cuz you’re presemptuous and impatient? So was Joe.
”
more likely you just don’t like the implications of answering the questions…
“. But Jesus Christ is the center of LDS theology if that does not define a people as Christian then the Holy Trinity has no hope whatsoever. “Holy Trinity” is not even mentioned once in the bible. Neither is “three person in one God”. But “Jesus Christ” is mentioned quite predominantly in the Bible”
the MORMON jesus is the center of your theology…but the Jesus of the bible is not….the mormon jesus does not exist…
and no, if you don’t believe in the trinity, you’re not a christian…sorry…..and all of smith‘s and young’s false prophecies won’t make it so. you’ll never be gods…Jesus isn’t an offspring of father, and he‘s not our ’spirit brother‘ God doesn’t have offspring. and you will never ever be a god…sorry.
as I said, you call real christians apostate, and then try to appropriate Jesus…use him to your own ends…because without him, your cult has nothing…
I don’t see how anyone could be a mormon…and support the numerous false prophecies…and the obvious racism of the church…I notice you said nothing about smith’s false prophecy..its one of many….
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:42pmRush1234;
Stendahl goes on to say that he could envisin himself partaking ofthe [Mormon temple blessings that "netting (?)" the eternal inthe the temple [as the Mormons do] is kind of what Christianity is all about.
The main reason you say that Christian churches do not consider Mormon to be Christians is because of the LDS rejection of the Holy Trinity. If you are to take that stand, andchurches and congregations officially do then they have to show what is in place of the Holy Trinity. Al they can show is that Jesus Christ is the center of all LDS theology. That the LDS goes againstthe grain of much of traditional Christianity is not in dispute. It does and it openly proclaims it does. joseph did and openly proclaimed he did. But what is “Christianity” other than a devotion to accepted Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the only name under heaven by which man may be saved and to strive to be like Him? are you to say that the Holy Trinity trumps this fundemental identification? That if one does not acceptthe Holy Trinity they automatically reject Jesus? How is that possible since the Holy Trinity has little to no foundation without man’s philosophy? The trinitarian formula is not held up on biblical teachings alone but with the aid of man’s philosophy yet it is this which “cornerstones” Christianity? I say the cornerstone is coming unto Christ and tha is precisely what Mormonism does.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 9:46pm“? That if one does not acceptthe Holy Trinity they automatically reject Jesus? How is that possible since the Holy Trinity has little to no foundation without man’s philosophy? The trinitarian formula is not held up on biblical teachings alone but with the aid of man’s philosophy yet it is this which “cornerstones” Christianity? I say the cornerstone is coming unto Christ and tha is precisely what Mormonism does”
its simple, if you don’t have the trinity, you don’t have the real Jesus..the muslims have jesus…their version of jesus, why is their wrong, and the mormon jesus right? hmm?? at least muhammed didn’t make as many false prophecies as smith did…( I don’t think he made any, but thats another story)
how about the buddhist jesus? why isn’t he real? hmmm??
your jesus does not exist…I don’t know how many times to say it, I know you don’t believe, and I’m afraid you will find out the hard way.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 11:08pmRushJoe;
“so you admit the father created jesus’ spirit. again the mormom jesus is a created being”
Jesus’ was created by the Father, yes. I also showed you that accordng to LDS scripture tha although created, He is co-eternal towth the Father for spirit is eternal. That would make Jesus a created being, yes. There is no doctrine revealed to man saying the Father was created and thus tit is not believed that He was by the LDS. There is an idea that He was but it’s just an idea and has no part of the official LDS faith or worship.
“the real Jesus created everything…including US”
Fine, since you do not believe in the pre-mortal existence than you do not believe that any God or any deity ever created any human spirit than there’s no disagreement there between you and the LDS. We both agree that Jesus created “everything”. As for our bodies, God said, “let us make man in our image” so I do think Jesus was involved in that creation step. I do think we may differ on creating the human spirit. The LDS believe that it was the Father and only the Father who created the human spirit. so here I find such a minute difference that there’s no reason to create this “Mormon Jesus ” and “real Jesus”. There is no such thing as a “Mormon Jesus”. It almost sounds like “el cucuy ” of Mormonism.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 11:16pmRush1234;
“uh yes we are…we believe in ONE GOD. not 3.”
Wow, you’re strictly monotheists? What Muslim or Jew would agree with you?
“uh no you don’t…your own scriptures say SEPARATE…what about SEPARATE do you not understand??? if the mormon god existed the bible would use the word YACHID…because your gods are SEPARATE..from your own scripture..”
No, it does not have to say, “yachid’. Nor does it have to say “mono”. Echad means unity. echad is used to describe Adam and Eve being “one flesh’. That there is two separate anddistinct being yet “one”. How are they “one”? In purpose and in *unity*. Echad is a perfectly legitimate term to say “one” when describing separate and distinct entities united togetehr. Whether it be family or football, echad is sed to show one in purpose from separate entities. In this purpose, separate beings.
“We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead”
Exactly what mormons believe. so, it doesn’t say, three separate ersons inthe Holy Trinity, huh? Since you understand the scriptures better than did Jacob of old, I‘m sure you’ll find ‘trinity” or ‘sam substance” in the Bible.
“I mean really you’re lying about your own scripture.”
True to Rush-Is-Right’s prereicarnated form on The Blaze: Call the Mormon a liar. were you banned previously or just decided to take a new username for the fun of it?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 11:29pmJoe;
“uh huh…more diversions…are you a greek or hebrew scholar?”
Find a scholar and show where my translations erred. You’ll have better luck finding “Holy Trinity” in the book of Luke. Were’n;t you trying to school me in Hebrew? Inthe words of the great cartoon, Phineas and Ferb, “why, yes. Yes you were.” So, true to form, you’ll apply a standard on me but not yourself. Unless, of course, you’re a Hebrew scholar.
“oh and the OT was written in HEBREW…not greek…sorry’
Yes, Mr. Scholar Joe. That is why I said, “Masoretic” text. That’s the text, in Hebrew, which the king James Bible relied upon to translate the old Testament. But the Masoretic texts is not the oldest text we have available today. Before the discovery of the DeadSea scrolls, the Septuagint was the oldest surviiving copy of the Old Testament.
“The Septuagint ( /ˈsɛptjuːəˌdʒɪnt/), or simply “LXX”, is an Ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. It is referred to in critical works by the abbreviation [1] or G. It was originally the designation for the Koine Greek translation of the Pentateuch, but came in time to refer to the Greek translation of the Old Testament adopted by Christians,”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 11:34pm(con’t);
Masoretic text = “MT”
“The MT was primarily copied, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the 7th and 10th centuries CE. Though the consonants differ little from the text generally accepted in the early 2nd century (and also differ little from some Qumran texts that are even older), it has numerous differences of both greater and lesser significance when compared to (extant 4th century) manuscripts of the Septuagint, a Greek translation (made in the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE) of the Hebrew Scriptures that was in popular use in Egypt and Israel and that is believed by scholars[2] to be the source often quoted in the New Testament.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text
I‘m no scholar but it’s clear I know d*mn more about this stuff than you.
“thus proving what an incomprehensible mess your theology is…according to mormon theology Jesus is our brother…we’re from the same Father…”
Only if you’re reating to the strict portion of my post which you cited. The Book of Mormon clearly taught why Jesus is the Father. It has nothing to with him literally being the Father. If you wantto actually learn about mormonism, read and internalize what I posted, otherwise your reacting to only aselected portion to my posts will do you no good. it will definitely not show you to be the “true Christian” between the two of us.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 11:42pmRush;
“uh who cares? he defended and defined the trinity”
Huh? Arius was kicked out of the christian Church 9never had his Christianity questioned or doubted mind you) for defending the the beliefthat the Son and the Father were two separate beings and you don’t care that the man you credit for “defining” the Holy Trinity left the Church? At the very least, if he “defined” the Holy Trinity, his leaving shows discontent with the Church and if he “defined” the holy Trinity than perhaps it was because many Christians *didn’t believe him*. He was also out of favor of the Christian Church and as I noted, his teachings didn’t go anywhere during his time. The language he used was picked up by 4th century Christians to create the trinitarian formula but Tertullian is not credited for having “defined” the Holy Trinity. Even if he “defined it”, as you just said, you’re still admiting that the definition of the holy Trinity came post biblical / post apostolic era.
I noted that as time progressed, more and more Christian leaders spoke of the Trinity and persons ofthe trinity. This als omeans the reverse is the same. That going backwards in time, you’ll find Christians speaking less and less of the Trinity until you reach the Bible where *nobody* speaks of it. It’s a post biblical concept. Period.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 11:51pmRush;
‘if you had any integrity you would apologize for spreading the lie that the trinity was a 4th century invention.”
Exactly your style,Joe. I have said that the Holy Trinity was formulated, and thus officially “created” or “invented” in the 4th century. If you disagree than please enlighten me asto when the conusel of Nicea took place.
“obviously mormons do NOT agree…otherwise they wouldn’t say there are separate gods…”
You showed the LORD is is “God and Savior” That “apart from” Him there is no God. Mormons agree 100%!!! To my previous post which I pointed out that LORD (all capitalized) is the KJV’s writing for YHWH who is directly connected to Jesu (though there are definitely situations to apply YHWH to the Father as YHWH is a title as well as a use of a proper name), that ‘apart from” can easily mean ‘away from”. And, yes, “away” from Jesus there is no God for the *only* way to God is by and through Jesus (YHWH).
“its obvious you don’t believe this…..how can Jesus be Eternal when the mormons talk about him as being ELDEST??? ”
Perhaps if you‘re not so hasty in dismissing LDS official doctrine when I present it to you you’d be able to answer this one you own without having to ask me about it (yet again). But, alas, you have never, even in your Joe days, shown any interest to learn about the LDs, only marginalize it and discredit it. But I will be glad to show you, again, how this is (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 11:59pmRush (con’t);
Jesu is co-eternal wit hthe Father because, as God showed unto Abraham that He (God) went unto “intelligences” and formed them. “Formed” is from the Hebrew “barau” which also means “to create”. These ntelligences wer there in the pre-mortal existence with God the Father. The Father was “greater” than all the other intelligences and from these intelligences “many noble and great ones” were formed. Abraham as among them. Then, among all the intelligences, as Abraham saw, was one “like God”. This one was Jesus Christ, the Old Testament YHWH. So, although created, He is eternal for spirit is eternal.
“and I notice you didn’t say about you calling Jesus a liar….again…was Jesus lying when He said, no one has seen the father at any time?? hmmm????”
Joe, I really hink you cannot see how juvinile this line of dialogue is. one doesn’t agree, so you call them a liar. You also do not seem to comprehend that duringthe day, I simply cannot blog. I got a job to do as wel as putting kids to bed and spending time with them and Mrs. Darren. Your calling me out “for not saying…” is simply stupid, undignified and juvenile. you really do seem to have a juvenile disorder of some sort. I do not doubt you do good things but Ithat’s hard to tell from your postings.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 26, 2012 at 12:20amJoeRush (con’t);
Jesus said no one saw the Father at any time is correct. There is another passage which teaches that exact same truth but adds some significant detail. First, here’s what I think you were referring to: “18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1). “46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” (John 6). I do not view these two passages of John as searate one from another but that I think we should view John 1:18 in the context of John 6:46. So, john 1:18 should not be interpreted as Jesus making an as a matter of fact statement that “no one has ever seen the Father” but that no one has seen the Father unless its conditioned on that man being “of God”. So it could very well be that men have seen the Father but in no situation has any man, who is not of God, seen the Father.
“nothing about that false prophet smith…no surprise…”
Not only is this naturally juvenile but totally nonesensical since you NEVER posted anything about Joseph Smith being a false prophet on this Scott15SB string but on the Normbal string which I never commented on. More later.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 26, 2012 at 12:28am“and nothing about you calling Jesus a liar again when He said God is spirit….”
God is spirit, so are you and I.
“(not flesh bones)”
“39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” (Luke 24) So, god is spirit but not Jesus? If God is spirit but Jesus is not spirit than Jesus ,according to your logic, is not the Jesus of the Bible. Nor is Jesus God but the trinitarian forula says Jesus is God as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit, just not three gods but One (mono) God.
“oh you really should attribute the things you post…its rather apparent you are just posting talking points….plagiarism is rather tacky…..”
Yeah, and you invented the “Rush is right” motto? All my posts are my original thoughts. If you can show who I copied them from, please let me know. In fact, point out the lack of accredidation.
Again we see standards you accuse me of needing to have but you do not apply it upon yourself. Mormons aren’t Christian because they do not believe in the Hoyl Trinity is you original thought? Mormons not worshiping the God of the Bible is your original thought? Attacking mormons for their belief that the Father has flesh and bones is your original thought? No, no ,and no yet you never saw me accusing you of plagiarism.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 26, 2012 at 12:50amRush;
Here‘s what you posted way down on Normbal’s string regarding Joseph Smith being a false prophet:
“and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189).
Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.”
I have answered this during your Joe days at The Blaze but it is worth repeating. To make sure I et this right I rechecked a source I used long ago when I first heard of this criticism. The source from the quote above D&C 130:14-15: “14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: 15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.” Here the lord said, “trouble me no more” which shows, “it’s not important”. Sowe have the 85 years old cited. What peoople leave out are verses 16-17:
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 26, 2012 at 12:59am(con’t);
” 16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face. 17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.” (D&C 130). Here Joseph Smith himself expressed uncertainty of exactly what the Lord meant. Was this a revelation for the “beginning of the millenium” or about something that had already happened. as his doubt. But n verse 17 Smith concludes that this revelation was not regarding “the coming of the Son of Man”, ergo, the Second Coming. And the Lord did appear to Smith at least twice so prophecy fulfilled.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Alleged_false_prophecies/Second_Coming_to_be_in_1890
Joe, if you want to rely on “History ofthe Church” regarding this prophecy then open to volume 6 and you’ll read clearly that joseph Smith announces that the lord has NEVEr revealed to himthe time of His coming. Also, I ave found “History of the Church” an incredibly poor source of reliability in terms of discovering LDS doctrine. Even in the book’s introduction it states that not all the sources should be trusted despite the utmost care t chose them. The account given in “History” regarding this prophecy is a copy of unaccredited edited manuscripts. If you truy are concerned about accreditation then don’t use this book,.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 26, 2012 at 9:10am“Jesus’ was created by the Father, yes. I also showed you that accordng to LDS scripture tha although created, He is co-eternal towth the Father for spirit is eternal. That would make Jesus a created being, yes. ”
thank you for finally admitting that…this is the crux of the issue….mormons use the words christians do, but mean very different things. the Jesus of the bible is not created, rather is very God of Very God…the first and last.
“There is no such thing as a “Mormon Jesus”.
I would agree, since the mormon jesus is not the Jesus of the bible, he does not exist…just as the muslim jesus does not exist.
“Wow, you’re strictly monotheists? What Muslim or Jew would agree with you?”
I really don’t care about the muslims agreeing with me…but I say as they both do there is ONE God…mormons cannot say this.
“echad is used to describe Adam and Eve being “one flesh’.
yes they are…but the mormon gods are NOT one flesh….by your own scripture.
“so, it doesn’t say, three separate ersons inthe Holy Trinity, huh?”
no it doesn’t say three separate persons in the trinity. or else they wouldn’t be ONE…how hard is this?
“: Call the Mormon a liar. ”
you said your gods are a unity….but your scripture says they are separate…so which is it? either you or your scripture is wrong..lying whatever you want to call it….
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 26, 2012 at 9:18am“Find a scholar and show where my translations erred. You’ll have better luck finding “Holy Trinity” in the book of Luke. Were’n;t you trying to school me in Hebrew? ”
uh no, I was trying to say you’re trying to confuse the issue, neither of us are hebrew or greek scholars…so lets just stick to the translations done by experts.
“I‘m no scholar but it’s clear I know d*mn more about this stuff than you. ”
yes you’re a legend in your own mind.
““The MT was primarily copied, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the 7th and 10th centuries CE”:
more diversions….
‘The Book of Mormon clearly taught why Jesus is the Father. It has nothing to with him literally being the Father.”
the christian Jesus is the Everlasting Father….as Isaiah said….He is one with the Father….He created us…
“Huh? Arius was kicked out of the christian Church 9never had his Christianity questioned or doubted mind you)”
as far as I know, I didn’t post anything from Arius…I did a search of the page and only saw your post of his name..
“That going backwards in time, you’ll find Christians speaking less and less of the Trinity”
as you go back in time, you find less and less of christians speaking at all…they were persecuted terribly by the roman empire remember?
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 26, 2012 at 9:42am“Joe, I really hink you cannot see how juvinile this line of dialogue is”
no whats juvenile is the mormons trying to appropriate christianity for themselves. using the same words as christians do, and pouring different meanings into them….coming along 1,800 years after the founding of christiantiy, and saying we had it wrong for 1,800 years…uh huh…the hubris and arrogance is amazing. Somehow God couldn’t do anyting until a false prophet comes along to set things right…laughable.
“Exactly your style,Joe. I have said that the Holy Trinity was formulated, and thus officially “created” or “invented” in the 4th century”
the holy trinity was formulated since the beginning of Christianity, even before that…given those verses in the OT….the trinity is just a description of what is obvious in the bible…there is ONE GOD…thats it…not multiple gods….but the FAther is God..the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God…all eternal…all ONE….the mormons cannot accept this…and so you have a god in your own image…a made-up god that does not really exist…for your god is not the God of the Bible.
“you NEVER posted anything about Joseph Smith being a false prophet on this Scott15SB ”
really? check this one out….
rush_is_right
Report Post »Posted on January 25, 2012 at 4:17pm
rush_is_right
Posted on January 26, 2012 at 9:49am“Joseph Smith himself expressed uncertainty of exactly what the Lord meant. Was this a revelation for the “beginning of the millenium” or about something ”
really? I’ve read the full context from here…
History of the Church, Vol. 2, pp. 180-182
p. 180
CHAPTER XIII THE LECTURES ON FAITH–TWELVE APOSTLES CHOSEN AND ORDAINED.
http://carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/jesus-return-within-56-years
if they’re wrong, then the mormons should sue them and force them to take down that page….sure doesn’t appear that smith was uncertain at all. I do find it interesting that your site is an explanation…the site I post is just a quote….
well if that book is SO unreliable…then I’m sure this is a bit more reliable…
“Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun.,
(Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.)
no temple in missouri…and if there is smith sure didn’t dedicate it….another false prophecy…I‘m sure you have another ’explanation’ for it though….oh I do have a bridge to sell ya….
Report Post »commonsensefreethinker1
Posted on January 27, 2012 at 1:04pmNo, in todays world your bible is an obsolete myth.
Report Post »zoro51
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:57pmfact n thruth NO ROMULAN MORMON WILL EVER BE ELECTED PRESIDENT.. so get over it
Report Post »Kaoscontrol
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:06pmOn the Klingon ones have a chance. Phasers on stun.
Report Post »LibertyGoddess
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:06pmThe Mormon standards are high, so up yours.
Report Post »txjb
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:17pmmuslim standars are high too, so high they kill people even their own .
Report Post »Hobbs57
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:11pmNo BIGOT on the right will ever get elected again either. SO keep it up and you can assure it is only you to blame for Obama getting elected. It was you bigots, especially those Evangelical bigots, who brought us McCain last election. Yeah, instead, you’ll vote for a man who was an Evangelical, a Baptist, and now a Roman Catholic and also a serial adulterer.
Report Post »I promise you one thing, as I journey between the churches looking for my place of worship in the name of Christ, I will go churchless before I ever consider visiting the bigoted Evangelical churches again. I am talking some very disgraceful words I heard, filled with hate, but sealed by fear. The fear replaces faith, and is the means by which the adversary controls man made religions. Any religion that uses fear to keep it’s membership, clearly is influenced by the flesh. My God, the true God, love unconditionally, not with condition and is all forgiving. For some reason, one I can only assume based on keeping your memberships, your supposed leaders use threats of your salvation to keep you at church and to collect money from you. One thing I can say I like about the Mormons, their leaders are not paid. Instead, men are called to a position where they dedicate countless hours with out being financially reimbursed. Just like AA and NA in recovery, no paid leaders and no dues, so everybody is equal. The spirit dictates the direction of the meeting. Something you born agains need to figure out.
aerorepairo
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:34pmYou know Barack would make a terrible Klingon. He has no sense of honor, has no Loyalty to his country, doesn’t even have the U.S.s interests at heart. He would probably cry and beg for his life if threatened with death. He probable couldn‘t even lift a Bat’Leth. He would make a better Ferengi. He lives the Rules of Acquisition and loves to spend money that isn’t his. Plus he doesn’t speak Klingon only teleprompter. These people need to be exiled!
Report Post »Did anyone at the blaze happen to ask Rev. O’Neal Dozier how many “crackers” attend his sermons? Baptists are not segragated. . . No , No , No we are not allowed to speak of such things is sacrilege. Nothing like a bit of Religion bashing to bring out the true colors of the Evangelicals, LibertyGoddess is correct There is such a thing as Christian Taliban and they use the same Alynski Rules for Radicals to bash (in U.S. history tar and feather/kill) or attack any religion that does not worship as they do! It would be accurate to say that most Progressives in Congress are Evangelical.
txjb
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:47pmI‘m with you O’neal . The mormon faith has NO plan of salvation , just like muslims,hindo,buda ,jws’ etc. No savior. Here’s a news flash for you cornal minded folks ,us Christians hate the sin ( even our own ,of course) not the people that commit them .
Report Post »LibertyGoddess
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:11pmIgnorance at its best. Why don’t you call or visit a Mormon. You will find your pastor has lied to you. Then how will you feel?
Report Post »Anarcho Capitalist
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:12pmNo you wont. Its a cult. I live in Mormonvill USA. Its a cult like any others. When its 200 years older we will call it a religion.
Report Post »bullcrapbuster
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:15am@TXJB……total hogwash.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 7:31amIt is a cult. It is the classic example of a cult. Just because it has a lot of money behind it and it has been white washed as just another denomination of Christianity over the last 30 years doesn’t make it less of a cult.
Report Post »justin.blake
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 3:31pmKeep on flinging that ‘cult’ word around why don’t you. The only reason you and others use it is to marginalize and demonize, just like good old Saul Alinsky. Why don’t you go read Louis J. West ‘s
Report Post »presentation to the Bonn, Germany “Campaign for Intellectual and Psychological Freedom” conference on Public Health and Cults so you learn what a cult really is and what it’s goals are. And if you wonder about his credentials, he was Professor und Chairman of the Department for Psychiatry and Behavioral Research, Director of the Neuro-psychiatric Institute of the University of California, Los Angeles. Clearly the “mormons” do not fall into this classification. You just want them to so you can call them names and demonize them. Do some real research instead of throwing around Evangelical Christian talking points and making yourself look stupid.
packa14
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:40pmthese pastors and some members of these Business churches that say they worship Christ are more interested in the money than really teaching Christ, remember it was Christ that chased the money changers from the temple!!
Report Post »txjb
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:15pmThere are a lot of those preachers and churches around .
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:45pmLast time I checked the Mormon church was one of the richest Churches the in the world. It also requires members to tithe.
Report Post »CaliforniaD
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:04amMormons are not “required” to tithe. They are taught the Biblical principle of tithing and they volunteer their money secretly. They serve more and give more than other churches because they love God and their fellow man. Ridicule them if you will, at God’s judgment.
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:16amWhat is a tithing settlement then? Explain it clearly for Non Mormons.
Report Post »Ajax_W_R
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 10:09am@Mutiny
Report Post »Tithing settlement is a private interview between the individual or family and the Bishop. The purpose of the interview is for the member of the church to give a personal accounting for their tithes. Just as in the parable of the talents, there was an accounting for that which was entrusted to the servants. We are all God’s children and it is our privilage to serve him. Tithing settlement allows for the member to gauge and define their will to follow God’s commandments.
I hope this helps.
martinez012577
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 10:58am@ajax
Tithing shouldnt be between you and anyone but God.
Mormons also believe we are all “spirit babies” created by God and his many goddess in Heaven. This is why you say we are all his children. We arent his biological children. We are adopted children when we accept Jesus Christ into our hearts.
If you believe you can become a god, If you believe Jesus Christ and Satan are brothers, or that God was a man on another planet you arent worshiping the same God and Jesus Christ from the Bible.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 6:02pmMartinez
“Tithing shouldnt be between you and anyone but God.”
Here you go:
“18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.” (Genesis 14)
I guess Abraham and Melchizedek didn’t understand the gospel as good as you do.
“Mormons also believe we are all “spirit babies” created by God and his many goddess in Heaven.”
We are as Job was taught and as Jesus’ apostles believed spirit children of our Heavenly Father. There is, however, absoluteyl no official LDS doctrine that says the Father has “many goddesses”.
“We are adopted children when we accept Jesus Christ into our hearts. ”
That’s towards our deification. Even Jesus reminded the Jews accusing Him of blashpemy for saying He was the Son of God that they are gods themselves (John 10:34) refering to Psalms 82:6, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”
“or that God was a man on another planet ”
No official LDS doctrine says that God was a man on another planet. .
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 6:17pm“That’s towards our deification. Even Jesus reminded the Jews accusing Him of blashpemy for saying He was the Son of God that they are gods themselves (John 10:34) refering to Psalms 82:6, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.””
you think you’ll be a god huh? what about this?
Isaiah 43: 10
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
no gods after Him….you‘re out of luck I’m afraid…
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 8:24pm@darren
LOL, its not official Mormon cannon anymore. Your faith changes like just like Mitt Romney. You want to know why Romney changes his views on subjects all the time? Because his faith has no issue with doing it either.
Joseph Smith the founder says polygamy is what God wants. He follows that up with 33 wives one of them being 14. Brigham Young says its the only way to Heaven is through polygamy and he gets your college named after him.
If the prophets are false the religion is false. Sorry Mormons, you have been duped.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 12:01amMutiny;
“LOL, its not official Mormon cannon anymore”
LOL, it never was canon. In fact you probably have no idea how a revelation becomes LDs canon, do you? But, hey, I know you mock me because you love me. And i do appreciate your love; just not your baring false witness against your neighbors.
“You want to know why Romney changes his views on subjects all the time? Because his faith has no issue with doing it either.”
Again, I know you said this because of your evangelical love for Mitt. In my love, I suggest: “Why Evangelicals Should Support Mitt Romney (And Feel Good About It!)”
http://www.patheos.com/Books/Patheos-Press/Why-Evangelicals-Should-Support-Mitt-Romney.html
“Joseph Smith the founder says polygamy is what God wants.”
You mean like inthe Old Testament times? Oh, the dread.
“He follows that up with 33 wives one of them being 14.”
If he lived in Delaware she could have been 11. Go figure. What kind of Christians were in control ofthe Delaware legislator? Oh, yeah, Protestants. and when you come across evidence of sexual relations with Joseph Smith and anyone but Emma, do tell but this thread‘s being moved off the The Blaze’s front page soon and I almost never return after it does. So, perhaps later when you build up more love for me and my confounding changing faith.
Report Post »Chappy123
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:40pmWright had his opinion and that was ok.
Report Post »CaliforniaD
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:09amDefinition of the word OPINION: “A feeling based on INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACTS.”
Report Post »ares338
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:33pmThis guy has a right to his opinion whether anyone agrees or not.
Report Post »loki1830
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:30pmThese type of“ christians” are the most bigoted and hateful people and the same level as many of the radical islamics. These “christians” would kill gays, jews, and make it legal to shoot a mormon. Wait they already did that in the past making it legal to shoot a mormon on site.
Report Post »Hypocrites of the lowest order
LibertyGoddess
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:12pmYes, The Christian Taliban exists. They are no different than their bigoted middle eastern counterpart.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 9:33am“Yes, The Christian Taliban exists. They are no different than their bigoted middle eastern counterpart.”
amazing ignorance and stupidty….post your proof.
Report Post »LeadNotFollow
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:14pm…
Report Post »Rick Santorum is the only decent candidate left in the race.
Conservitive Ticker
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:20pmYou mean: Insane-o-torum. The guy looks like he‘s going to go postal in every debate or start crying can’t tell really.
Report Post »VicksVaporub
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:26pmLet’s vote for Rick! I always wanted to see World War Three.
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:46pmHe is the same as Romney and Gingrich on the issues.
Report Post »LongRange
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 5:33pmYes!
Report Post »TH30PH1LUS
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:10pm1. At this point I will vote for ANYONE who is not Obama.
Report Post »2. Obama claims to be “christian” & also supports baby-killing and Communism. I’ll take a patriotic Mormon, a Hindu, or a Buddhist president over THAT sort of “christian” any day.
3. If American Christianity cannot churn out 1 single candidate who is true to his faith, true to the Constitution, and true to the principles of Conservatism…. whose fault is that?
USAMEDIC3008
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:11pmThe NEA
Report Post »tlchands
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:21pmYeah, starting to feel that way myself Th3o. Interesting bit of fact:
Report Post »During the 2008 election I went to factchecker.org to see what religion Obama was claiming. It clearly stated that he was Muslim. When there was the hullaballoo about what his religion was a couple years ago I checked again and it said “Christian.“ They had changed the archived article they posted in 2008 to say ”Christian” as well. My husband witnessed it.
(It sure makes me wonder that the Internet isn’t already being censored and we are too simple to realize it. )
texas2011
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:08pmI Romney was not Mormon he would have won long ago.
Report Post »RedHotFuzz
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:07pmYou know why Evangelical pastors hate Mormons? Because Mormons don’t believe in a paid ministry. Mormons are literally a threat to their bottom line. So they’ll keep shoving anti-Mormon propaganda down their parishioners’ throats.
Mitt Romney served in clergy positions that are very close to full-time work. What was his compensation? Not a single dime.
Report Post »RockInHat
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:18pmIn 2008 95% of mormons voted for Romney in Utah. Mormons will NOT vote for a Christian if a moderate mormon is on the ballot.
For mormons this election is not about electing a conservative. It’s about electing a Mormon.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:19pmOh BS. Evangelical churches pay their pastors, usually a pittance, what they can. What Mormons or Catholics or Jews do is irrelevant.
I think the thing most evangelicals have against Mormonism is that it is a cult. It goes against the Bible. It claims other texts as inspired. Okay then, I have a new revelation from Christ for the Mormons. The angel Macaroni visited me last night and told me the Mormon scripture no longer applies and to go back to the Holy Bible. If you don’t believe me then you are not a real Christian.
Whatever…
Report Post »RockInHat
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:20pmRomney’s compensation for being a Bishop in the mormon church? Heck, all the rich mormons gave him money to invest. He kept 20% for himself. Did Willard Marriot Romney (middle name after the wealthy founder of Marriot hotels) profit from being a mormon? You betcha.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:50pmREDHOTFUZZ,
I want to apologize for my post. You have been very militant in this article, which is unusual for a Mormon. I responded in kind when I should have held my tongue. I meant what I typed and I think your belief is as foolish as you feel mine is. That is okay. I respect your right to hold those beliefs and I hold no ill will to Mormons. I understand your position, I might be angry too if I constantly had my faith mocked in here, by not only atheists but people who consider themselves Christians also. We all have our limits. We may not see eye to eye but go in peace.
Report Post »READRIGHTHERE
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:00pm@troll
For those ignorant of our beliefs, it makes perfect sense to wholesale dismiss the faith of millions of people. It would be nice for everyone comfortable in their interpretations of scripture to have the Mormon faith simply disappear or to be relegated to the ash heap of history as a peculiar cult with wacko doctrines. Unfortunately for those that feel this way, it will not. The Mormon faith is resoundingly in agreement with the biblical narrative, in fact some would argue that they are more faithful to Bible doctrine than any other Judeo-Christian faith. But that is beside the point.
It is a matter of interpretation. Feel free, as I do myself, to hold to any particular interpretation that best suits your understanding, but at least follow the admonition given in the New Testament to judge not. If you want to learn more then actually put forth the effort to do so. Start with mormon.org., let the missionaries who are paying their own way to spread the message they believe in to come to your living room, actually read the Book of Mormon or at least a decent portion of it. It truly is another witness of Christ, and as such supports and defends the truths of the bible. Call us kooks if you want to. Call us united if you want to. Ignorance is the soul of bigotry.
Our shared religious principles often create a situation in which we are more likely to vote Republican than Democrat. But this is not always the case. Judge not, it conflicts with being Christian.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:36pmOh, I am not at all ignorant of your beliefs. Your theology is clearly laid out in your three supplemental books, though it has changed a great deal over the last hundred fifty years.
The Jesus you worship is not the Christ of the Bible. That is just the start of the differences between the Holy Bible and Smith’s books. God is eternal, He was not created and was never a man. D&D 130:22 states otherwise. Compare John 4:24. Malachi 3:6 says God is eternal and does not change. Jesus is the second part of the Trinity and is of the Godhead. Lucifer was an angel. We are not little mini-gods who will one day have worlds of our own to save. There is no Moroni, and there were no golden tablets. There is no further revelation, if there were then how do you know if it is from God or Satan? Is it not suspicious when new revelation is suddenly altered and backtracked on?
Listen, I was out of line, I apologized. Your religion is a cult that denies Scripture. You claim the Bible has been corrupted. Yet current scholarship now has fragments going back to 100AD that all match up. Meanwhile, Smith claims the Native Americans are descended from Jews and that Lehi introduced horses to this continent. Both claims are easily falsified today. Man…The list just goes on and on…Maybe it is you that should study up on your own faith!
Report Post »RedHotFuzz
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:00pm“You have been very militant in this article, which is unusual for a Mormon.” – TrollTrainer
“Militant?” In what way, exactly? Did I impugn anyone else’s beliefs?
“Evangelical churches pay their pastors, usually a pittance, what they can.”
Odd, I can probably name at least a half-dozen Evangelical ministers who have built multi-million-dollar empires from their ministry. And show it in their own personal lifestyles. Is Mitt Romney loaded? Sure. Did any of it come from my tithes? No.
“We are not little mini-gods who will one day have worlds of our own to save.”
Hmm, wasn’t it CS Lewis who said “It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which,if you say it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship?” Mormons believe in the infinite potential of man as God’s literal children. That concept is less strange to me than the thought I could live forever yet stop learning and progressing.
“Yet current scholarship now has fragments going back to 100AD that all match up.”
Mormons don’t believe the Bible to be false. We believe it to be missing important gospel truths that have been lost/removed from it over the years. The historical fragments found do nothing to dispel that belief.
“Lehi introduced horses to this continent.”
Not correct. Horses were mentioned in the book of Ether, dated to around 2500 BC,
Report Post »Hobbs57
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:22pmInteresting, the very Rev. that brought up this whole point about Romney wouldn’t agree with you Evangelicals very much, now would he. Maybe a Catholic and maybe more A Mormon, but certainly not an Evangelical Born Again – although he oddly does use the whole “born again” concept as well. Very interesting. Anyways, here is part of the bigoted Rev’s belief
Report Post »“We believe there is only one triune God, eternally co-existent in three Persons. Each Person of the Trinity is equal with the other two Persons of the Trinity, yet each manifests a particular ministry and function. God the Father is our Creator; God the Son is our Redeemer-Savior; and God the Holy Spirit is our Comforter and Healer. – What do you born agains have to say about this ?? I know what you have to say because I had it screamed at me in some demonic manor dozens of times at meetings just because I disagree with them.
RedHotFuzz
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:23pm“I meant what I typed and I think your belief is as foolish as you feel mine is.”
I don’t feel your belief is foolish. I feel it’s incomplete. That’s a big difference.
What’s offensive is being called a “cult” simply because we disagree with Evangelicals on the interpretation of gospel concepts as explained in the Bible. Conflicting interpretations are not rare, hence the existence of Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. Yet Mormons are a “cult” and Catholics are not, correct? Joseph Smith sees God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ = cult. Juan Diego sees the Virgin Mary = not a cult. Pat Robertson receives revelation from God regarding imminent disasters that don’t actually happen = not a cult. Please explain the double standard here.
I believe your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, and I also believe you are incorrect on the existence of non-Biblical (even modern-day) prophets. But I’m not going to call you a “cult.” I don’t understand how a particular sect of Christianity feels they own the dictionary definition of the word “Christian.” I am very much a Christian, despite what the Evangelical thread says.
I bear you no ill will, but will defend my faith when necessary. God bless.
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:51pm@read
“fact some would argue that they are more faithful to Bible doctrine than any other Judeo-Christian faith. But that is beside the point. ”
Outside of the Mormon faith please link that reference. That is Mormon propaganda. The Bible says any other gospel taught even it is from an angel should be rejected. That was the Bible talking directly to Mormons.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 4:32amtrolltrainer,
You say >>>There is no Moroni, and there were no golden tablets. There is no further revelation,<<>>>God is eternal and does not change<<<<
Well which is it? If God does not change then he must still give revelation. If he no longer is a God of revelation then he has changed.
Oddly enough, just this night I happened to read with my family the follow that applies directly to you.
Mormon chp 9
7 And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues;
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?
10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.
http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/morm/9?lang=eng
Report Post »symphonic
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:06pmBefore Obama got elected, there was also 20% that said they would not vote for him, because of bigotry. There’s a pattern here.
Report Post »Conservitive Ticker
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:56pm!!!!! Let the Mormon Bashing Begin !!!!!
This is going to be fun.
Report Post »RockInHat
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:52pmwhen the mormons in Utah are willing to vote for a Christian like Huckabee, then maybe the mormons will have some creditability.
in 2008 in the Utah primary 95% of mormons voted for Romney. They would not vote for Huckabee or Romney. Why?
It will be the same this year. Just watch. Then let’s talk about which religious group is more bigoted.
Report Post »READRIGHTHERE
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:14pmHuckabee lost to McCain after teaming up to stop Romney.
I can’t speak for every member of my church but I for one supported Romney because I have always believed that we would be better served in the White House by a man who:
1. Does not need the position to self aggrandize, accrue wealth, or relish power.
2. Holds true to conservative principles not only in social but financial categories as well.
3. Believes in smaller government.
4. Is not a Washington insider. We don’t need another congressman or senator in the White House. They have all served to increase government and fail in an epic manner to reign it in, which is to be expected when their livelihood is legislation.
5. Does not have a closet full of mind blowing skeletons.
6. Has actually achieved his goals and succeeded.
The last go around, Romney was the clear choice, as displayed to our collective embarrassment by letting McCain get the nomination. Don’t fault me or others more likely to think the way I do for making a better choice than you did in 2008.
And to be even more brutally honest, as a fellow Mormon I have scrutinized Romney greater than I have any other candidate, because, if there is something I hate to experience, it is disappointment in the failures of a fellow member of my faith. I was relieved to see Huntsman bow out, and I am looking forward to sending Hatch home from DC and hope to see Nevada do the same one day to Reid. I will settle of course for his demotion for now.
Report Post »Conservitive Ticker
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:16pmKeep it coming! You must have more.
Report Post »CaliforniaD
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:50pmMormons would like to see a well-qualified Mormon like Romney become President so that the country and world can see that a Mormon can be a great leader just like a Catholic or Protestant can. They want to show love of country just as much as any other patriotic American. Mormons excel in sports, business, show business, education, and public service. Yet, they are unjustly hated and ridiculed, especially by Evangelical “Christians” using tax exempt funds to viciously malign those of another Christian faith. How un-American, un-Constitutional (no religious test for office), and un-Christian. They will reap what they sow! Better to sow seeds of brotherly love and understanding.
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:02am@read
1. Mormons strive to become a god. That is pretty much wanting power.
2. Conservative principles? He has been on video saying he would support a womans right to choose and has voted for more gun laws.
3. You think Romney is smaller govt? He has been for bailouts, and said yes to NDAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. He isnt a Washington insider, but he for sure is a politician. He has been running for office for 20 years.
5. His skeletons are political. Having no skeleton himself. Shape shifting to whatever race he is trying to win.
6. He has been a successful businessman but he has used the system implemented by the government to make gains. I personally dont have a problem with it since he seemed to follow the rules.
Report Post »str8blues
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:30amOnly if you’re a BIGOT. Lots of those in this forum. Plenty of bigotry here………..someone laid hands on ROCKINHAT and now he speaks in ass.
Report Post »edmundburk
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 4:09amat least their not going after catholics……..so far LOL!
Report Post »RedHotFuzz
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:56pmApparently to the Evangelical American a serial adulterer is a better choice than a faithful Mormon.
This country is going down the toilet and all the Evangelicals are doing is rattling the handle.
I‘ll vote Obama before I’ll vote for the morally-depraved Newt Gingrich. Second Mistress as First Lady? Not on my ballot.
Report Post »symphonic
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:01pmI hate to say this, but Obama WOULD be better than Newt. I can not believe what South Carolina did recently in propping that embarassment to the GOP up again. He was disgraced from the Speakership and fined 300,000 dollars. How corrupt is that???? Not to even mention his many wives fiasco and disgrace. SCarolina, your slavery roots are being exposed. You are bigots.
Report Post »Conservitive Ticker
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:11pmI think there beyond jiggle-in the handle they they got the full on toilet plunger going, and that stink-in Obama Turd just won’t go down.
Report Post »LibertyGoddess
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:10pmI have said the same thing. Evangelicals are the worst. They make millions of enemies every year. They are the decline and fall of the Republican party.
Report Post »Publius Novus
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:55pmTed Kennedy ripped Romney apart when when Romney challenged him for “His” seat. Kennedy made sure everyone in MA knew what Mormons believed. It must kill Romney that Scott Brown is there now. Romney is a JOKE. He will say anything to get elected to office. He was a one term wonder as a Governor and he gave us Romney-Care. Thanks Mitt. You have no spine Governor and I betcha there’s a little $$$$ in them Caymen accounts from the heath care lobby in Massachusetts- just a guess.
Report Post »symphonic
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:58pm“betcha.” Betcha??
sounds Sara Palin ish, and that would figure.
Report Post »RedHotFuzz
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:03pm“Kennedy made sure everyone in MA knew what Mormons believed.”
And MA residents voted to make him their governor. I guess what Mormons believe isn’t as offensive as you believe it to be.
As for ill-gotten gain, didn’t Gingrich mooch over a million bucks from Freddie Mac? Taxpayer dollars? Why yes, yes he did.
But hey, that’s OK. At least he’s not Mormon, right?
Report Post »BetterNTexas
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:14pmIt doesn‘t kill Romney that Scott Brown took Kennedy’s place. He orchestrated it.
Report Post »edmundburk
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 4:19am@at redhotfzz-Newt is a catholic FYI
Report Post »chips1
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:53pmAfter the blacks offered Obama as their first black president, I doubt they will ever succeed again. They screwed up.
Report Post »symphonic
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:52pmYou’d think this man would LEARN.
“Nineteen Percent of Whites: Friends Will Not Vote for Black Man”
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/08/13/nineteen-percent-of-whites-friends-will-not-vote-for-black-man/
Polls said same thing about a BLACK MAN, so obviously this man is just another bigot, one of those 20% who are… whether it be towards a black man getting elected president, or towards a mormon.
Report Post »COFemale
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:48pmI had heard that rumor also many years ago, until I found out it wasn’t entirely true. It may have been a long time ago, but at least they’ve over come those prejudices; more than I can say about the KKK. You know the Democrat party.
I guess that is why I have been seeing black Mormons doing commercials and have seen black guest on the genealogy program on BYUTV. Not to mention one of the Tabernacle Choir’s singer, Alex Boye is black. Glenn had him sing on his Christmas show and I’ve heard him sing when the Choir was performing. I guess he doesn’t know about the black LDS at http://www.blacklds.org/.
This black pastor is living on the plantation and needs to get with the program and join the 21st century. Many things have changed since 1960.
It is estimated there are 400,000 black Mormons now and there were black Mormons since 1832; where exactly is the Mormon’s bigotry?
Report Post »Bluebonnet
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:09pmMakes no difference, but I believe those who claim blacks were not members of that faith is because it came down to l978 before the church was made to change it’s policy and allow blacks to join the Priesthood, which was for whites only until 1978.
Report Post »Also, I think members are required to serve the church in many ways without a salary, like the young people serve their church with 2 years service in many countries and all over the United States.
Read the book “The God Makers” it explains all about the mormon church, been out about 35 yrs.
hidden_lion
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:11pmBlacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood until 1978 because they were cursed, that is what they maintain. For a church that says “Man will be punished for their owns sins and not adams trangression” isn‘t it strange how that doesn’t apply to blacks who’s supposed ancestors were turned dark because of sin?
Report Post »It doesn‘t square with Christ’s teachings, doesn’t square with the earliest beliefs of christianity.
LibertyGoddess
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:20pmThe ignorance on here is astounding.
1. Blacks were baptized and ordained until Brigham Young blocked the priesthood. We don’t know why, we only have speculation. One of the contentious points with the Missourians is that the LDS were open to ending slavery and this caused more hatred.
2. The KKK was 4 million EVANGELICAL members strong at the turn of the century. Race relations happens to be a crime committed in all churches.
3. There are no segregated churches in the LDS faith today, but you can bet the EVANGELICALS still do today!
4. The EVANGELICALS sure do like to pass on the same lies and distorted truths about the LDS no matter how many times they have been proven false. The LDS grow at a much faster rate than the EVANGELICALS today…ummm…
5. I find it odd that it is okay to accept the generosity of the LDS during the hurricanes, the world’s largest food pantry, the billions of hours a year their members volunteer to make the world a better place, but somehow, they are not good enough to run for office? Check yourself.
Report Post »READRIGHTHERE
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:41pm@ bluebonnet
You are mistaken on the whites only concept. Polynesians, Native Americans, Latinos, and even Hindu members have never been restricted from receiving the Priesthood in our church from its beginning. There are many who attribute the restriction to the mistaken beliefs of certain leaders, who had their understanding slowly weeded out and changed culminating in the conditions which occurred in 1978. My parents celebrated with others the decision to finally lift the restriction placed on Blacks. Instead of demonizing the past, they and others like them simply praised God for the new revelation.
I personally do not know if God intended for the restriction to occur or even remain until 1978 for his own purposes or if he simply allowed the wheat to grow along side the chaff until the chaff was finally choked off. It is now of no concern to me. All I know is the right decision was made in 1978 and that is all that matters.
Blacks, as members, were never restricted from anything else, only the priesthood. In the Biblical House of Israel, only the tribe of Levi was allowed to administer in the priesthood. There is nothing new under the sun. Peter was afflicted with prejudice towards gentiles throughout his ministry, God and Paul had to call him on it. Sometimes the right man for the biggest portion of the job, is not the right man for every job. No excuses here, just possible reasons.
The faith of those who were restricted is an example to me.
Report Post »Bluebonnet
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:43pmYes, and I find it odd that one of the largest groups to help those all over the world is the 700 Club’s
Report Post »Operation Hope and never get any recognition for all they do. Often, they are the first to arrive and the last to leave disasters.
Being an Evangelical does not necessarily mean people like the KKK were true Christian believers.
Bluebonnet
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:58pmWhat I do agree with you about, is: Send Hatch and Reid home from their service. I would have liked Huntsman to have done a better job, but who knows the reason why?
Report Post »pluffmud
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:11am“This black pastor is living on the plantation and needs to get with the program and join the 21st century. Many things have changed since 1960.”
God never changes. There is nothing new under the sun! The Mormon “church” movement is a totally American event started by a Freemason (Joe Smith – how original), from a family that dabbled in magick, who discovered buried plates due to a Satanic vision of the angel Maroni?,(divining), written in an Egyptian format unknown to man, which he miraculously translated into the Book of Mormon using a peep stone (scrying)! Mormons do NOT believe that Jesus Christ came to earth as God in the flesh; rather they say He is merely the brother of Lucifer. What blasphemy!
Romney wears his secret underwear with Masonic symbols for protection, while awaiting his next life where, he too, will be a god over his own planet where he can make eternal love to women to bring about all of the “star children” and multiply his kingdom!! Why would anybody believe this claptrap?
God does tell us to judge – judge a person as to whether or not he produces good or rotten fruit. Romney produces rotten fruit. God bless Rev Dozier for stating the truth regarding Mormonism, the abominations of homosexuality, Islam, etc.
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:13amAccording to the Mormon faith since blacks didnt choose a side between Satan and Jesus they were cursed with black skin. Its not that Mormons are racist at all. Your founders were and through “revelations” your church changed their mind.
Report Post »edmundburk
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 4:30amso I guess we’ll forsake our doctrens, our creeds and give them up so the mean old mormens won’t say were bigots for holding 2,000 yrs of faith! Everybody who believes that mormenism is a cult is a bigot! Lets get down on our dirty little knees and thank God that the mormens show-off their little token blacks!
Report Post »joel228
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 5:02amREADRIGHTHERE, nothing is worse than a “Mormon” trying to apologize for the actions of past prophets. You do the anti-mormon’s work for them. You might as well also apologize that Jesus would not preach to the non-Jew / gentile. Also apologize for Moses who withheld the priesthood from all but the tribe of Levi.
Perhaps I’m being a little harsh but it disturbs me more when a member of my own faith does not understand or defend what is given as revelation. All things have their time even though we are not privy to the mind of God and why he does things when he does.
Abraham 1
Report Post »26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;
joel228
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 5:11amReadrighthere, I read your post again and I think my reply is a little to harsh because you did mention much the same that I did. My only beef is that you said “I personally do not know if God intended for the restriction to occur or even remain until 1978”. If you believe Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc were prophets then I’m not sure how you could make that statement. Peter was told the time is now for the gospel to go to the gentiles just as Spencer Kimball was told the time is now for the priesthood to go to all worthy males. That does not make either previous policy wrong.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 9:41am“The KKK was 4 million EVANGELICAL members strong at the turn of the century. Race relations happens to be a crime committed in all churches. ”
really post your proof…I‘m betting you can’t.
oh and who was it who freed the slaves??? oh yeah those evil EVANGELICAL christians you hate so…
and here’s what Brigham young said about slavery…
“In our first settlement in Missouri, it was said by our enemies that we intended to tamper with the slaves, not that we had any idea of the kind, for such a thing never entered our minds. We knew that the children of Ham were to be the “servant of servants,” and no power under heaven could hinder it, so long as the Lord would permit them to welter under the curse and those were known to be our religious views concerning them.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 172).
Report Post »Darren
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 5:40pmRush;
“The KKK was 4 million EVANGELICAL members strong at the turn of the century. Race relations happens to be a crime committed in all churches. ”
really post your proof…I‘m betting you can’t.
Here’s some stats regarding your challenge to libertygoddess:
“Members of the KKK.Their message struck a cord, and membership in the Klan ballooned in the 1920s. By the middle of the decade, estimates for national membership in this secret organization ranged from three million to as high as eight million Klansmen.”
Regarding their religious “faith”:
“In its second incarnation, the Klan moved beyond just targeting blacks, and broadened its message of hate to include Catholics, Jews and foreigners. The Klan promoted fundamentalism and devout patriotism along with advocating white supremacy. ”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/flood-klan/
The same article credits “Colonel” William Joseph Simmons for reviving the KKK in the early 20th century. Simmons “became a preacher for the Methodist Episcopal Church but was suspended by the church in 1912 for inefficiency.”
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Will
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 6:12pm“Regarding their religious “faith”:
“In its second incarnation, the Klan moved beyond just targeting blacks, and broadened its message of hate to include Catholics, Jews and foreigners. The Klan promoted fundamentalism and devout patriotism along with advocating white supremacy. ”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/flood-klan/
”
uh huh so you’re saying evangelicals hate catholics jews and foreigners…you can’t be serious. this is just the same liberal lies that we hear from the atheists.
oh and who was it who freed the slaves? oh yeah those racist bigoted homophobic sexist evangelicals…mormons sure didn’t do anything to free the slaves.
“The same article credits “Colonel” William Joseph Simmons for reviving the KKK in the early 20th century. Simmons “became a preacher for the Methodist Episcopal Church but was suspended by the church in 1912 for inefficiency.””
really lame try…hitler attended catholic church when he was a kid, do you think hitler was a catholic??
Report Post »normbal
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:48pmLook Americans voted for a kenyan illegal alien muslim, why not a Mormon?
I think Americans WILL vote for a Mormon, but severely learning disabled christians won’t.
Mormons ARE christians. Read the new testament, Jesus only gives one qualifier to be a believer.
If you think Mormons AREN;T christians, then you can’t believe catholics are either, and so it goes.
Leave it.
I‘m not voting for Mitt because he’s just a white Obama.
Report Post »YA-allthe-WEH
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:58pmMormons ARE NOT Christians.
Report Post »*Fixed*
ogzy2001
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:34pmWow, so…….for Ya-AllThe-Weh…..if I pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ, as my church teaches is correct, and I have a stated belief in God the Father, His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost, and this is just the basics of calling myself a Christian, right? Absolutely. And I am a Mormon, and I read and teach out of the Old and New Testiments every week. You declare that I am NOT a Christian. Since what I have stated is true, then I say I am a Christian. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, so by what basis do you declare me NOTa Christian? What someone else told you? If you believe that we are a ‘cult’, then by your own standards every other denomination would have to be referred to the same way.
Report Post »uncleeddie
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:27pmOGZY
Report Post »They are right we are not Christians; at least not traditional Christians. Modern Christianity has gone though almost 2000 years of darkness with out direct revelation though a prophet; the modern Christian has been left with a religion that, at times, has been left in the hands of un Godly men with no intention of blessing mankind put to have tyranny over the people they could control with the threat of hell fire from God.
As members of the Church of Jesus Christ we believe that the church is the restored church that Jesus Christ organized while he was on earth; so they are right the Mormon Church is not a “traditional Christian church.”
CaliforniaD
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 11:33pmSo-called “Christians” have redefined the term “Christian” to mean only “Evangelical, born-agains.“ I once saw an evangelical street preacher ask a Catholic nun walking by if she was a ”Christian.” Evangelicals are the most judgmental people I’ve ever experienced. They say directly that Jews and Mormons will go to hell. Christ-like comment? Judge not unrightiously that ye be not judged.
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 12:25amWe say you arent because you believe in a different Jesus Christ. You believe in a Jesus that is brother to Satan, was a son of a man, and you believe you can become just like him. That isnt the Jesus Christ from the Bible. Hence, Mormons arent Christians.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 9:35am“As members of the Church of Jesus Christ we believe that the church is the restored church that Jesus Christ organized while he was on earth; so they are right the Mormon Church is not a “traditional Christian church”
no you’re not a christian church at all.
“Christianity has gone though almost 2000 years of darkness with out direct revelation though a prophet”
and you think your false prophet smith is a real prophet??
and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189).
Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:40pmEh, whatever. I am a Baptist and I would vote for a Mormon, Catholic, Jew, or JW. Whatever…As long as they believe in God I don’t much care what their theology is. Would I vote for an atheist? Depends I guess but I would consider that more critically.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:47pmRonald Reagan was so sure that what was going on in the middle east resembled the end times from scripture that he had Jerry Falwell in on some of his defense briefings.
George W. Bush said God told him to invade Iraq.
Michele Bachmann, Rick Perry and Hermain Cain all said God told them to run for President.
That seem logical to you?
Look at how many of our Presidents have been believers….and look at the state of our country.
Bush was devout, and he signed the Patriot act and said “we have to abandon free market principles to save the free market.”
Atheists are not blinded by dogma and don’t hear voices telling them to do things. Why would you have to think more critically for a more rational candidate?
Report Post »COFemale
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:51pmTell ModerationIsBest do you ever get a random thought in you head about a situation or a gut feeling that something isn’t right?
Report Post »@leftfighter
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:55pmRight. “Nobody will vote for a Catholic” was a knock on Kennedy.
How did that work out?
I don’t have to agree with the cult in order to vote for a cult member. That said, it doesn’t make it any less of a cult.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:02pmmoderationisbest,
no offense, but you know how ridiculous a belief in the supernatural is to you? Failure to recognize God is just as ridiculous to us. You are blind. You can argue that, but you miss what we know to be fact.
Because of this situation I cannot trust that an atheist would do the right things. You do not hear God, or a better way to say it, you are not Spirit led. I would consider an atheist, but he must be rational, and ironically that is not very common. Most of you spend your lives hating something you claim you do not believe in…
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:06pmGood point leftfighter. It all depends on the person. There are some pretty nutty evangelical Christians out there too that I would not consider. As a Baptist I do believe in a separation of church and state, I don’t necessarily want a Bible thumper as president, though belief in God displays right thinking.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:29pm@TROLLTRAINER
You are not thinking rationally. You just said that I don’t “hear God.”
Look at how much has gone wrong in this world by people “hearing God.”
You might argue that they are not really hearing God, or are mis hearing God, etc.
The fact is, they are hearing voices!
I don’t hear voices. I don’t speak to imaginary beings. I don’t seek supernatural justice, I seek REAL justice.
Also, Atheists aren’t attacking God, that is irrational since they don’t believe in God. They are “attacking” people who believe in God, who support politicians who want to create legislation to force their beliefs on us.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:40pmJoh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
You do not belong to Him, you do not hear His voice. You are being mislead. It is to your peril. Again, we have ears to hear and eyes to see. Two thousand plus years of us now. You can rationalize that however you like, it matters not to me. I only pray that someday you too will hear his voice. You think it is impossible, but with God nothing is impossible. You cannot see because you are blind. Try reading the Gospel of John. Don’t scoff at it, just open your mind and read. Maybe the Holy Spirit might work in you and you will see also. Maybe not. Either way, you will find out soon enough.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:58pm@TROLLTRAINER
I attended an Evangelical church for about 6 years and always just “accepted” that the Bible was true. Once I honestly observed what it said, saw the absolutely obvious contradictions, and realized that I had to believe that Eve actually talked to a snake(etc), I couldn’t suspend my disbelief any longer.
I read the Bible, and it is what turned me away from Christianity. I could be a Christian if I didn’t have to believe that the Bible is true.
I‘m glad I don’t hear “God”.
Unlike you, I don’t view a human sacrifice as necessary for my behalf.
I don’t look at a newborn baby and think it is born evil and needs Jesus to be saved.
I don’t look at perfectly loving, genuine, generous people and say, “wow, they’re great people, but they don’t believe in Jesus so according to the Bible they are worthy of eternal torture for not believing.”
Your God sent himself, and sacrificed himself, to himself to create a loophole for something he created. It is illogical.
Your God is NOT loving, you have just been brainwashed to believe that. Any rational person who actually read the Bible could see that your God is a monster and even if he was real, is definitely not worthy of praise, love and adoration.
I hope one day you realize that.
Report Post »txjb
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 10:44pmTo Mod…. your problem is you don’t want a God telling you what to do , you are too proud , right now , you are blinded to the scriptures maybe later in life the Lord will let you see the truth , and by the way this is scriptual . Studying the Bible is the most exciting thing I do , for good Bible study look for Les Feldic on cable or Dish , it’s a informal Bible study , I think you will like it .
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 2:02am@TXJB
You would be surprised at how very little pride I have.
It has nothing to do with “not wanting to be told what to do.”
I simply can‘t read the Bible and think it’s true.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 5:24amModerationIsBest, you and I may be miles apart in our religious beliefs but in a odd way I find it fun to see some of trolltrainers own arguments that he uses against “Mormons” being used against him as a self professed Christian.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 9:19am“and realized that I had to believe that Eve actually talked to a snake(etc), ”
oh yeah how silly…but you believe that racist atheist fairy tale known as evolution…..
even sillier.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 9:22am“I don’t look at perfectly loving, genuine, generous people and say, “wow, they’re great people, but they don’t believe in Jesus so according to the Bible they are worthy of eternal torture for not believing.””
wow so you know whats in a man’s heart huh? you must be god himself!!!
according to the bible, from Jesus Himself, no one comes to the Father but through Him….
and when it comes down to it HE decides who He is going to save…and He loses none of them…learn the lesson of jacob and esau…..
romans 9
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 9:32am“Your God sent himself, and sacrificed himself, to himself to create a loophole for something he created. It is illogical.
Your God is NOT loving, you have just been brainwashed to believe that. Any rational person who actually read the Bible could see that your God is a monster and even if he was real, is definitely not worthy of praise, love and adoration.
”
oh you atheists want it both ways…you want to do what you want…..free will….with no accountability….good luck with that.
you can’t have it both ways…thats not the way it works. He created free will…knowing full well that humans would fall….He also took that burden upon Himself, and paid the price for us…knowing what it would cost Him.
you see a monster because He won’t let you have it both ways…you and your atheists are the illogical ones…spoiled brats who don’t want to grow up and face the consequences of what you do and beleive…grow up.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 2:06pm@Rush
Congrats, you once again successfully missed every point I was making and went on another talking points tirade.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on January 24, 2012 at 2:39pm“Congrats, you once again successfully missed every point I was making and went on another talking points tirade.:”
more like I hit every point you were trying to make, and blew them out of the water…as usual…
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on January 25, 2012 at 1:25pmLol, you’re delusional, not surprising though.
Report Post »3monkeysmomma
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:40pmWell of course we will!
We voted for Jimmy Carter, “W”, and Obama didn’t we?!!!!
…Oh,…… MORMON! I though he said MORON…..my bad….
Report Post »symphonic
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:57pmLol
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 8:37pmHe’s just saying what we all know. The people who cry for freedom of religion and persecution of their beliefs will not vote for a Mormon because…they believe some crazy stuff! Lol
Report Post »symphonic
Posted on January 23, 2012 at 9:03pmIts so inconsistent.
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