Faith

‘Pulpit Perversion Sunday’? Group Claims Pastors Have a ‘Partisan Scheme to Politicize Churches’

Pulpit Freedom Sunday is now only two days away and Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AUSCS), among other groups opposed to faith and religion in the public sphere, are publicly lamenting the initiative.

As we reported earlier this week, on Sunday, October 2, hundreds of pastors from across America will preach sermons that examine candidates’ stances on important issues of the day. Then, they will make specific recommendations about whether or not the congregation should vote for or against candidates. They will do this knowing full-well that current tax laws render such actions illegal.

Following the event, each pastor will inform the IRS about his or her sermon. The hope is that by making the government aware of the code violation, an audit will occur. Then, the constitutionality of the Johnson Amendment — a 1950s-era regulation that prevents churches and other 501c3 organizations from engaging in partisan politics — can be hashed out once and for all. The Christian Science Monitor has more on this controversial amendment:

The law bars houses of worship and other types of nonprofits from participating in political campaigns on behalf of – or in opposition to – any candidate for public office. It was passed in 1954 with help from then-Sen. Lyndon Johnson after nonprofit groups nearly defeated him in an election. Up until then, American churches were free to align with politicians – or rail against them.

In a blog post published earlier today, AUSCS communications director Joseph Conn stood firmly opposed to Pulpit Freedom Sunday, calling the initiative “Pulpit Perversion Sunday” in the title of his piece. He wrote:

This isn’t some occasion on the liturgical calendar or a spontaneous eruption of civic zeal. It’s part of a plot by the Alliance Defense Fund, a right-wing legal group founded by theocracy-minded TV and radio preachers. The ADF-sponsored observance has one goal: to pave the way for Religious Right leaders to forge fundamentalist churches into a disciplined voting bloc.

He continued:

If you want to be tax-exempt and you want donations to your church or other nonprofit to be tax deductible, you have be devoted to religious, educational and charitable endeavors and not be some sort of political action committee.

This latter argument, though, could easily be countered by the fact that most churches engage in public service to the community. Thus, houses of worship across the nation actually save local governments hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases through their active engagement in helping the poor, among others.

In the end, if one argues that churches are unfairly benefiting from tax code, the opposition could counter that society and, in turn, governments are benefiting from churches’ social activity.

In March 2011, Christianity Today covered this intriguing concept and questioned whether churches’ tax-exempt statuses mesh with economic value to local communities:

Does a congregation’s tax-exempt status outweigh the economic value it adds to its community? The University of Pennsylvania’s Ram Cnaan has long been searching for a specific answer. In a 1997 study, he found that urban congregations provide, on average, $140,000 worth of services annually.

In 2009, Cnaan (who describes himself as nonreligious) revised his estimate to $476,663.24. Now he’s about to release an even more detailed pilot study focusing on 12 historic Philadelphia congregations, including First Baptist Church, whose annual value to the local economy Cnaan’s team places conservatively at $6,090,032 (nearly ten times its annual budget).

Group Claims Pulpit Freedom Sunday Is Partisan Scheme to Politicize Churches

Conn argues that it would be a negative act to allow politics be so pervasively prominent in American houses of worship. This, he claims, would divide congregations, cause infighting and trample upon the rights of minorities. These concerns, of course, are valid. Some studies even appear to indicate that church members don’t want to see their pastors wade into the political sphere.

Still, pastors are individuals and proponents of Pulpit Freedom Sunday believe that they should have the free-speech rights guaranteed by the First Amendment — and that they should be allowed to speak freely about any subject (including advocating for or against a candidate running for public office). Conn, though, couldn’t disagree more. He concludes his piece with the following offer to report churches that violate the Johnson Amendment:

PS: If churches in your community violate the no-electioneering rule on Sunday, let us know. We’ll report the action to the IRS. Learn more at Project Fair Play.

Another point to clarify is that this is not an event being organized solely by right-leaning pastors. Those who stand behind Pulpit Freedom Sunday believe that everyone, regardless of liberal or conservative nature, should have freedom in the pulpit.

Comments (204)

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  • jueta
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:32pm

    Wasn’t it Nanny Pelosi who was telling the Catholic Church how they needed to be spreading the word about how important government controlled health care for all, paid by some, is?

    Report Post »  
    • sodacrackers2
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 10:14pm

      She is Catholic in name only (CINO)!

      Report Post »  
    • thepatriotdave
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 11:41pm

      This seems fair to me. Have any of you been to Black Churches before? They invite politicians in to give sermons. So if one Church can do it without a problem, all should be held to the same standard. I say let freedom ring in the Churches as well as the voting booth!

      Report Post » thepatriotdave  
    • Mia Cav
      Posted on October 3, 2011 at 8:27am

      The Sunday before the Obama-care vote, we had a guest priest (RC). His homily was on compassion and ended with we should support this law. The pastor got more calls and he was not invited back again. Conversely, I sent our pastor (who is a registered R) information on this event. I said I was looking forward to his homily. Unfortunately, the Little Sisters of the Poor were there to sell baked goods and discuss their mission. My family is giving him 1 more week and then we are going parish shopping. I don‘t need the Guild’s $500 scholarship for my daughter. I am tired of sitting in a Cafeteria Catholic church.

      Report Post »  
    • sWampy
      Posted on October 3, 2011 at 12:09pm

      The churches became basically worthless when they gave up their believe system for tax breaks. ;-/

      Report Post »  
  • DogTags
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:26pm

    Funny how the liberals preach “separation of Church and State” but they only want to protect their secular humanism from challenge. These secular humanists are simply pushing their type of Sharia law on the rest of us.

    Report Post »  
    • CatB
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:31pm

      Funny Black Churches have been preaching the liberal politics for years .and years … now they don’t want other churches to do the same … That wasn’t gospel that Rev Wright was preaching when Obama was in his church .. it was hatrid of America and White Americans. IT was POLITICS!

      TEA!

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    • The10thAmendment
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:52pm

      I love the lefts completely ironic stance. It’s okay for THEIR personal non profits to peddle their communism, but it’s not okay for churches to peddle American exceptionalism and Republican values.

      Pity party for the communists, pity party for the communists.

      Report Post » The10thAmendment  
    • vennoye
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 9:33pm

      Not only have the black churches always had political aspects to their services, they have invited the Democratic candidates to speak at their worship services. WHY do you think Blacks keep voting Democrat when the policies of the party are so against the morals of their churches!! There is nowhere the Democrat propaganda machine has not chased them!

      Report Post » vennoye  
    • TheVoice1
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 10:00pm

      So the state should tell the church what they can and cannot say????? Or anyone else for that matter? This is called freedom of speech. Man up America. Freedom of speech includes every American. Somewhere the main point was lost in the fuss. We are a strong people, a free people.

      Report Post » TheVoice1  
    • Detroit paperboy
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 10:56pm

      Americas chickens are coming home to rooooost
      Jerimiah wright…… Apolitical tho

      Report Post »  
    • jzs
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 12:28am

      I see these churches are using the The Cloward–Piven strategy. They are making a mass overload of the IRS in order to place an impossible burden on the agency to respond to in a timely fashion. I can’t believe that the right rails against, then uses the Cloward–Piven strategy.

      It doesn’t matter. None of the “100s” of churches doing this will have violated their tax-free status.

      Once these churches start acting as political organizations, passing out fliers in support of candidates, raising money for candidates (praise be to God! our pastor is telling us what candidates God supports!) and otherwise using the non-profit status of their church to act as a political organization, well they aren’t acting a church anymore are they?

      Seriously folks, do want your pastor to tell which candidate God supports? Maybe you have your own opinion. Yes? Does he/she really know what candidate God supports? Do you really want him/her talking about how to bring the teachings of Christ into your life through an election? Why is your pastor talking about that, instead of how Christ, and his teachings, will help you in your personal life?

      If not, give a big shout out to Iran, where religion and politics are the same thing.

      Report Post » jzs  
    • READRIGHTHERE
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 3:53am

      JZS, I agree with your final sentiment.

      I don’t understand the problem though or see why a Pulpit Freedom Sunday is needed. It is not necessary to specifically target a politician or even an ideology by name in order to preach against or for it. The standards of Gospel living as preached by Christ and further supported by his disciples can be taught in such a way that a member of the congregation can be reasonably expected to make an informed choice when next in the voting booth.

      My Church is very strict when it comes to its policy of political neutrality, but has no problem pointing out an evil practice, philosophy, or an immoral way of thinking or in introducing a positive alternative. I think using a pulpit to vent one’s political beliefs, pro or con, especially when concerning specific politicians or ideologies cheapens the conversation and defiles the pulpit.

      Specific political rantings and ravings have no place in our halls of worship any more than specific religious rantings and ravings have any place in our political forums. But to say they don‘t or shouldn’t mix in the individual voter’s mind is terribly uneducated.

      So for you preachers out there who feel you need to hold more influence in the voting choices of your congregants, focus on what you can do and hope for the best, otherwise, spell it out clearly and pay taxes for using your pulpit as a campaign stop.

      Report Post »  
    • StonyBurk
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 12:01pm

      First Chief Justice John Jay in a letter to Rev. Dr.Morse 1 Jan.1813 ,about the time he was chosen President of the American Bible Society , wrote it is the duty of Pastors to animadvert on every subject they find repugnant to them. He also said we should choose Christians for our leaders. Today he would called a member of the Taliban –or some similar ignorance from the beguiled. Read Political Sermons of the American founding Era ,Ellis Sandoz editor Liberty Fund ,1998 or the two volumes by Donald S.Lutz and Charles S.Hyneman — American Political Writings during the Founding era 1760-1805 ,Liberty Press ,1983, or download the Library of America Exhibit by James H.Hutson ,1998 Religion and the Founding of the American Republic Then we can discuss if it ought be ok for American Pastors or Priests to participate as members of the Black Robed Regiment in this display of resistance to an unjust law written by Senator LBJ

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    • cosette
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 5:41pm

      @ Catb After reading this story and scrolling down in order to comment I came across your post. My thoughts exactly. And ditto.

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    • We are Americans
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 8:13am

      The church should be used as a house
      of worship. Thank God my church dosnt
      talk politics. I go to church to praise Jesus
      and to learn the gospels. We praise the Lord
      with great praise!

      Report Post »  
    • DrFrost
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 9:10am

      I agree. I think the situation would be more clear to all involved if people just realized that “secular” humanism qualifies as a religion. What these people really want is for only their religion to be political.

      Report Post »  
    • beckinista
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 3:54pm

      @jzs … you’re right; as a Christian, I *don’t* want my minister telling me who I should vote for. That being say, I *do* believe he has the right, if not the responsibility, to address current social trends from a Biblical perspective. That is, tell us what the Bible says about homosexuality, INCLUDING the admonition to “hate the sin but LOVE the sinner”: what it says about Social Justice – which is NOTHING: what it says about,,, well, you get the idea. The problem is, MOST people (on both sides) would like nothing better than to shut down the other side by any means possible. The difference, it seems to me, is that the Right shows more self-restraint, while the left tends to use any means possible (”We’ll use the power of persuasion and, if that doesn’t work, the persuasion of power” – Andy Stern). The union leadership is definitely left-leaning, and they certainly promote ‘success at any price’ – including intimidation if not physical violence. Churches whose congregations lean to the right should have the same freedom as do those on the left to preach what they believe. That;s all that’s being sought here. If the left wants to preach the brand of Social Justice that says the Government should take care of everything (Communism), or even Black Liberation Theology (Marxism), so be it. We just ask for the same priveledge – or are you so unsure of your beliefs that you can’t afford to allow a challenge to them? Consider well your answer.

      Report Post » beckinista  
    • thepatriotdave
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 11:48pm

      READRIGHTHERE
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 3:53am
      ============================
      Wow, I cannot belive you want to silence free speech like JZS does.

      Report Post » thepatriotdave  
  • beullar
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:25pm

    As an atheist I applaud this movement. I am so sick of these anti-religious bigots mandating a freedom “from” religion rather than freedom “of” religion. I would MUCH rather have a man of good moral and religious character leading my country than these socialist/communist anti-American idiots. Anyone who truly loves this country must understand the importance that religion played in it’s founding. If you don’t, then you are both a fool and ignorant of our history. This makes me want to go to a church just to support them.

    Report Post »  
    • Docrow
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:47pm

      Well said!

      Report Post » Docrow  
    • mjhillalabama
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:06pm

      I am not an atheist but do not adher to any one Christian sect or church. I agree wholeheartedly that to attack any religion is not only hypocritical but unconscionable. The secular left cries “separation of church and state” allegedly quoting the Constitution and the First Amendment, without realizing they have no Constitutional laws on which to base their complaints. Then these same people turn around and “preach” their secular philosophy, criticizing those of us to believes there is God, yet wailing and gnashing thier teeth crying “foul”, when we show them to be mistaken.
      If these secular lefties do not agree with the subject of the sermon coming up, all I can say is don’t bother to attend. Then you won’t have to hear them.

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    • wolfy ghalkhani
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:06pm

      well said. I’m an atheist, too. and I go to church. I love Jesus for his teachings, and I enjoy the community the church provides.

      Report Post »  
    • Favored93
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:08pm

      Best comment on our religious freedom I have ever seen come from an Atheist!
      Glad you are out there! I pray you are not alone.

      Report Post » Favored93  
    • ohnomrbill
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:16pm

      Then you are not a True Atheist if thats what you believe so don’t sit here and say one is better then the other

      Report Post »  
    • OneofMany
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:20pm

      @beullar – Thank you for being reasonable… Since you seem to have a very fine mind, I would emplore you to read “Christian Apologetics” by Dr. Norman Giesler … his treatment of all the arguments for and against God are excellent. I think you would enjoy it regardless of which side you’re on.

      @wolfy ghalkhani – You go to church? This is amazing… I’m glad you go, but I just cannot understand how you can stand it? I mean if they are teaching God’s Words each week, how can you sit there and not feel uncomfortable?

      Report Post » OneofMany  
    • ohnomrbill
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 9:24pm

      you are not an Atheist or you would know that not all Christians etc have morals and the same for atheist who have Morals without the threat of destruction

      Report Post »  
    • TheVoice1
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 9:49pm

      Very well said, and solidly held if I might add. Your heart speaks louder than the words written and that’s why they are so clearly heard. Freedom “of”…..of speech, no matter where you stand, pulpit or street…of religion, of belief…no matter what race, age, or color….America how I love you

      Report Post » TheVoice1  
    • webpreacher
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 9:10am

      Well Praise the LORD, a breath of fresh air from an atheist, who I will agree with whole hearterdly!

      Hard to believe you don’t believe, well there is hope !

      Report Post » webpreacher  
    • Blazerilla
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 9:48am

      Why isn’t there a “like” button here?

      Report Post »  
  • nilo
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:13pm

    Faith and belief in God through Jesus Christ are essential for the continued existence of the U.S.A. Anyone who denies this, does not believe. The “pulpit” in not a political soapbox. Nowhere in the New Testament is any command, example, or inferrence that the preachers of the New Testament preached political sermons, None can be found. What we can find is that the Gospel and its terms for mens’ salvation, including living a godly life to secure the salvation that will be given to the faithful, is to be preached.

    When “churches” fall into the trap of entering into political preaching in the nation’s pulpits, the Gospel is going to be forsaken, and believers become misdirected away from the purpose of the Gospel and man’s salvation through Jesus Christ. We need to hear the Word of God preached, not some pundant of politics.

    Individual Christians can be active politically, but the Body of Christ (the Church) is never to be a political platform for any preacher. Jerimiah Wright and those like him are not doing God’s Will when they rant and rave, spewing out hate and contempt for their fellow man.

    PREACHERS, PREACH THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE PULPIT, AND AMERICA WILL BE RICHLY BLESSED THROUGH THOSE WHO TRULY BELIEVE AND OBEY IT FROM THE HEART.

    That is my advice.

    Report Post » nilo  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:31pm

      Yes! Exactly.

      Report Post »  
    • ZeitgeistBuster
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:33pm

      I agree with your overall sentiment there NILO, but give your position some more thought.

      One aspect of the Gospel is the loyalty we must have to God’s kingdom now, even before it fully arrives. Man‘s society can and does contradict what God’s will is for his children. So the concept that we should obey the civil authority except where they conflict with God‘s will would be impossible to talk about from the pulpit if you surrender your pastor’s right of free speech to the government regulators.

      We should be willing to step up to the plate as church members and speak to a pastor in a brotherly way if we feel he is feeding us politics instead of spiritual nourishment. That is our job – NOT the government’ job, because the decisions about what is acceptable speech from the pulpit is decidely OUTSIDE the realm of the competency of the government to decide on.

      Besides that, the government will ALWAYS decide such issues based on it’s own expediency and self-preservation…. it would not and cannot discern the spiritual needs of people inside a church.

      Report Post » ZeitgeistBuster  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:47pm

      “One aspect of the Gospel is the loyalty we must have to God’s kingdom now, even before it fully arrives. Man‘s society can and does contradict what God’s will is for his children. So the concept that we should obey the civil authority except where they conflict with God‘s will would be impossible to talk about from the pulpit if you surrender your pastor’s right of free speech to the government regulators.”

      I would venture to say that NILO would agree with this because I think our position is similar. This is still preaching from God’s Word. Of course the pastor should preach about sin and how we should relate to civil government. It would also not be wrong to look at each candidate and examine their stands on issues. The line should be at supporting one candidate over another. Of course it is unspoken, candidate A believes in gay marriage, abortion, legalizing prostitution…Candidate B is pro-life, against gay marriage…You get the idea. But the fine line would be the pastor telling the congregation to vote for candidate B. Or to hang campaign signs in the church. Or even making political donations in the name of the church.

      The pastor should have the freedom to say what he likes…But if he preaches anything but God’s Word I would be running from that church.

      Report Post »  
    • Favored93
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:18pm

      I could not disagree with you more.
      I believe it is the duty of our leadership to call out injustice in our system or politicians that are corrupt.
      Read your Bible and you will find Jesus calling out Israel’s corrupt leadership HARSHLY!
      Read our history and you will find that we would not likely have become our own nation had it not been for PASTORS preaching from the pulpit personal freedom and injustice from the Govt. (King).
      We are a nation of KINGS made into SLAVES because our Govt. no longer believes we can govern ourselves. We NEED our Pastors to speak out or the next generation may not know what freedom of speech is.

      Report Post » Favored93  
    • ZeitgeistBuster
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:35pm

      @ Nilo.

      In reference to your statement that “Nowhere in the New Testament is any command, example, or inferrence that the preachers of the New Testament preached political sermons, None can be found.”

      Actually there are politically charged moments in the New Testament.

      John the Baptizer told people how to react to Roman Soldiers who were garrisoned in Judea.
      He openly criticized the political ruler of that period over his sexual mis-conduct, which contributed to his being finally executed.

      Jesus called Herod a Fox.

      And when Paul was dragged before the Govenor Felix, ” he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come,” Which made Felix tremble because the high standards of conduct for those called to God’s kingdom cast a shadow of shame on the conduct of the govenors of the Roman Empire.

      So see, there is an interface between the Gospel and the announcement of the Kingdom of God, and the failures of our own human run systems.

      Therefore, you cannot avoid talking about the political situation of the world and what a poor state of affairs man finds himself in compared to how things are predicted to be when Christ sweeps man’s political systems aside in his return and shows man how it should have been from the beginning.

      Don’t arbitrarily limit what can be said fro the pulpit. The True Gospel can be outlawed so easily that way!!!!

      Report Post » ZeitgeistBuster  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:36pm

      Favored93,

      I understand your position and you mount a persuasive argument. I do not so much disagree with what you say as I do your position. Let me tell you why.

      Do you rely on your minister to tell you what is right and wrong or how you should live your life? I do not. I rely on mine to bring me a lesson from God’s Word. This lesson I check as he is preaching as my Bible is open on my lap. We are not to blindly follow or ministers, that is how cults are formed. We are to study God’s Word ourselves, we are ALL ministers of the Word. Hopefully our pastor/minister/reverend etc is more mature than we are and can guide us and give us meat to eat. But we are to check what he is teaching.

      Likewise, do you need your minister to tell you what is wrong in politics? I expect my minister to be focused on God, not politics. I expect him to be able to discern God’s Word and show us the scriptural principles we need to judge our politicians ourselves. Church is not the place to debate secular politics. It is the place to examine how the church can get along in the secular world while remaining true to God. If the pastor fills our hearts with the Word then he arms us to go out into the secular world and follow God’s principles. The minister is not the leader of a revolution, he is the shepherd of his flock. If you look at the sermons from the Great Awakening you will see that while the church fueled the revolution it did not lead it.

      Report Post »  
    • team1blazer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 10:27pm

      Sorry NILO, but you are way off base. Because we all live “in the world”, does not mean that we are to live “of the world”. Ministers of God have a high calling not to “lead astray” Gods people. Too many preachers of this day are not giving their congregants “solid food”, and that solid food, in part, is a message that IS political in nature, by the shear fact that we live in a REPUBLIC, which requires the people to be educated….and yes, that means educated by the Gospel.

      Report Post » team1blazer  
    • encinom
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 10:57pm

      First, we are a secular nations, God is not found in the Consitution or ours loves, as a Natio we do not need the carpenter’s step-son’s help.

      That being said, listening to the Preachers on Beck, they are not breaking the law, the Johnson amendment is there to prevent Churches from endorsing candidates or ballot issues, not preventing Preachers from saying according to their view of the bible politican X’s position is moral or not. This is a non-issue and another false battle in the made-up culture war.

      Report Post »  
    • bread and circuses
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 6:56am

      ROFL, your ignorance of the Bible and the teachings of Christ is amazing.
      Christ practiced political speech by approving of Rome’s taxes.
      “…..give unto Caeser, that which is caeser’s….”

      Report Post »  
    • Ohello
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 8:41am

      NILO,
      You are fundamentally correct, however, the Communists, and LGBT crowd have politicized the very morality and instructions in the Bible, they have politicized God so much that stating Homosexuality is now considered hate speech, and the practice of fornication is considered a political right and freedom. Therefore, Pastors must preach to parishioners about political issues of the day and how and what Jesus and the Scriptures deal with them and whether or not the policies and behaviors of candidates, governments, and non-Christians, are in agreement with Scripture. We hear a lot about Loving the sinner, and hating the sin. But the communists have made identification of sin a political issue and speaking about it hate speech.

      Report Post »  
    • snooop1e
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 8:14pm

      I don’t get it, If all believers are “saved” why is the Gospel preached to believers every Sunday? In other words if you are already saved by just “believing” why are preachers telling people what is and isn’t sin? If the believers are already saved why do they need to know what sins not to commit if committing those sins won’t affect their salvation? Isn’t the Gospel for non-believers and the unsaved? This whole thing is very confusing to me.

      Report Post » snooop1e  
    • snooop1e
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 9:07pm

      The problem is this, the Evangelical Protestant message turns itself inside out. On the one hand Evangelicals preach that the only thing one must do to be saved is “Believe” ones behavior is not necessary for salvation but at the same time they preach not to sin. If a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior, nothing the person thinks, does or says matters. So the Evangelical preaching has no teeth, it’s lifeless. It’s nothing more than nice things to talk about on Sunday. Oddly enough to Evangelicals the Gospel message really only pertains to non-believers. This is the problem with Faith Alone and Once Saved Always Saved. Evangelical Preachers cannot bind the conscience of anyone because Evangelicals believe that only the individual believer can bind his or her own conscience and even if they don‘t it doesn’t really matter because their salvation is already secure. The question is, if Christians can “sin boldly and sin often” as Martin Luther instructed, what is the difference between the sheeps and the goats? The only diffefence is in their minds, the Kingdom of Heaven on earth ceases to exist and the “saved” end up sinning as much or more than the “unsaved” because the “saved” think that thier salvation is already secure. Objective reality is turned inside out, white is black, up is down, cold is hot, wrong is right and only the saved are allowed to sin and sin freely……..way to go Satan

      Report Post » snooop1e  
    • BV FROM TX
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 9:41pm

      These preachers are only trying to get this deleted from the IRS code. It is not political. They are tired of the IRS sending out threating notices of losing their non-profit status if they say certain things from the pulpit. Preachers should be able to lead their congregations in any way they feel they need to. If the members don’t like the sermons, they are always free to tell him or go elsewhere. Don’t forget LBJ was a very vindictive person. He pissed on a guy’s leg for something he did not like. He was full of himself and would fit right in with the Chicago mob in the administration that thinks they can get anything they want if they threaten you with enough regulations.

      Report Post »  
    • woodyl1011fl
      Posted on October 3, 2011 at 10:50am

      What do you mean political preaching? The Gospel of Jesus Christ, indeed the entire message of scripture directly addresses the evil, immorality, and hate spewed out by this present government we now have in power. Is the church and its pastors supposed to be silent about what is evil in our midst? It is God’s Holy Commandments for living our lives and Biblical principles that are upheld from the pulpit to be silenced? No candidates or party are endorsed! Righteousness exalts a nation, sin is a reproach to any nation that endorses and practices evil. Bonheoffer and a few other Godly German pastors stood against the rise of evil in their country in their time. Throughout the church age the secular profane politicians made God’s servants pay the ultimate price. LBJ and the democrat party have followed on the same path, enfolding the party’s beliefs into the police powers of the state enforced by the shadowy figures of the faceless bureaucracy. just. History shows us that as all tyrannical systems attempt to grow and consolidate power they must silence God‘s servant’s voices and from the prophets to today this is still true. If they, politicians, squeal over messages from God’s Word condemning evil in our culture then their consciences have been pricked and they call it political preaching and for them such truth must be silenced. Canada, Sweden, UK to name few have all done the same and are no longer a truly free countries. They have all rejected God and so are we!

      Report Post »  
    • MHP
      Posted on October 3, 2011 at 11:02am

      encinom

      He certainly is found in the Constitution. Read the declarattion of Independence.
      It’s all laid out clearly.

      You got crainial recomitis, which means you got head up they ass.

      Report Post » MHP  
  • OICUR12
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:00pm

    I went to the website and reported a double standard and hypocrisy

    Report Post »  
  • gabbygirl
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:55pm

    I have the control on this. If the preacher starts preaching politics instead of the gospel, I get up and leave.

    Report Post » gabbygirl  
    • Ohello
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 8:50am

      gabbygirl ,
      You might as well not go, because scripture and the Word of God is now a political issue. Just today on the Blaze Jesus has become a member of the LGBT movement according to Michael Moore who says Jesus was a homosexual. Theoretically, if homosexuality is an abomination in God’s way of thinking, and since Jesus is God, then God is an abomination in His own mind, and certainly in Michael Moore’s mind as well. Ask your preacher if he believes in Scripture, if not, or if some of it, then likely he is not regenerate.

      Report Post »  
  • antisocialist
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:53pm

    liberals have campaigning in churches for years.

    Report Post » antisocialist  
  • Infidel49
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:48pm

    Separation of Church and State was designed to Stop Gov’t from being involved in religion, not how people choose to worship. GOD bless America. If that bothers you, put your I pod earplugs in and listen to nancy pelosi or one of obama’s speeches.

    Report Post » Infidel49  
    • bernbart
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:01pm

      Separation of Church and and state as enshrined in the first Amendment works 2 ways: to protect the free exercise of religion and to prevent the estalblishment of a government based or dominate national religion.

      Religious leaders and people of faith should keep their religion in their churches, their homes and their religious schools, but keep it out of politics.

      Report Post »  
    • Servant Of YHVH
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:13pm

      Actually this claim of “separation of church and state” is nothing but BS that the liberals have come up with to try and keep the masses that go to church from knowing all the criminal acts that they do. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that says anything at all about Separation of Chruch and State. It does speak about preventing the government from creating their own religion that would be forced up the people, also, it also states quite clearly that the government is NOT ALLOWED to prevent the people from worshipping any way that they want to and that the government CANNOT restrict said worship in any way shape or form. Anyone that has or has tried to tell the people how, where, what or when (or anything else along these lines) is doing it unconstitutionally. This fake law that johnson got passed is not a legal law since it goes against the very Constitution itself and that technically Johnson and the Congress at that time committed treason by passing a law against what is specifically stated in the Constitution. While both sides have been guilty of treason, it is shown more predominately with the democrats. This would mean that the democratic party is a party of traitors and treason, this goes along with the people that support those criminals. The Founding Fathers intermixed Church and State without fail and in fact stated that this nation MUST retain it’s hold onto God if it is to follow the Constitution and to be a free nation.

      Report Post » Servant Of YHVH  
    • RIGEL_ORION
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:14pm

      Try reading the amendment and putting a frame of reference on the founders.

      The Church of England was a tool of the crown to control its subjects and spread its approved message.

      Religion is so prominently listed in the Bill of Rights to keep the state out of the church, not the other way around. If not, why would the first official printing of the U.S. Government, by these very same founders, have been the Bible? They didn’t care about religion being present in government, but government was to have NO control over these religions/churches.

      Get a clue

      Report Post »  
    • Locked
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:21pm

      “Actually this claim of “separation of church and state” is nothing but BS that the liberals have come up with…”

      And by liberals, he means the Supreme Court and the entire concept of judicial review (which has been around for about 200 years and is the basis of our legal system).Yes, we know you want the Constitution to mean what -you- think it should mean. Reality, however, works differently.

      Sorry, I just get tired of seeing the same argument over and over. It isn‘t grounded in reality and ignores the history and legal precedents set in our country’s law system.

      Report Post »  
    • Ohello
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 9:08am

      Humanism, secularism, communism, islamism, atheism, socialism, Marxism, black liberation Marxism, black pantherism, and nazism, are the same. These are all religions which set their form of government up based on their belief in God. This makes all of them subversion to our Government, and to our Constitution. Also, all of them violate the non-amendment of separation of church and state by imposing their “Religions” on the citizens of this nation. All are actually guilty of the very charge they use persistently accuse our Government and Christians today. Christianity is the only religion that says government’s purpose is to protect the righteous. Righteous is of course the righteous of God. All the other ideologies (ism-religions), require the government to impose their “religion” on the people.

      Report Post »  
    • snooop1e
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 8:27pm

      The US Constitution does not say anywhere that there should be separation of Church and State. You won’t find those exact words anywhere in the Constitution. The Constitution simply says that the state cannot mandate a specific religion. In other words the state cannot make itself the head of the church (as King James was in England) and the state cannot make it’s citizens practice a specific religion.

      Report Post » snooop1e  
  • bernbart
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:47pm

    Non Denominational evangelical churches already politicing from their pulpits. Pastors can say what they are morally opposed to but endorsing or condemning any party is illegal under a non porfit status. However the right do it anyway, as they somehow think their self righteousness is above the law.

    Report Post »  
    • antisocialist
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:55pm

      and every time a liberal courts the black vote, he hits the church circuit

      Report Post » antisocialist  
    • RIGEL_ORION
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:02pm

      Amen.

      Those chickens are coming home to roost. Not god bless America, god d*&n America! Very non-political. But hey, it for our own collective salvation, whether you believe in it or not.

      Why don’t you climb down off that mountain of unearned self-importance. The thin air is effecting your thinking

      Report Post »  
    • RIGEL_ORION
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:19pm

      No one could be above this law. It’s not a valid law any more than all the anti-sex laws that are still on the books in most states.

      There’s a reason the U.S. Government has never pursued a case to the end. Progressives want their threat. The last thing they want is to be called and shown holding an off-suit 2 3 4 5 and 7.

      Report Post »  
    • Ohello
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 9:22am

      Burnfart,
      You do realize that pastors and their sermons were part of the founding of this nation and supported open revolution against centralized government of King George. It is not against the law. The law in the tax code is a violation of our founding principles the Constitution. You can’t write enough laws to obviate the Constitution if the people know the words and its principles..
      Today, pastors like Jeremiah Wright, and all Islamic clerics are using their pulpits to overthrow not only the US Governmet, but also the Constitution. All the “ism-ideologies” are subversive to the Constitution most are subversive to our government (since our government is also used to subvert the Constitution. Christianity (true Christianity) is the only religion that supports the Constitution and only “subverts” (and I really mean restores) our Government when the government subverts the principles of the Constitution.

      Report Post »  
  • Infidel49
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:39pm

    Lol, don’t hold your breath waiting for a response.

    Report Post » Infidel49  
  • jakartaman
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:37pm

    Some folks just have too much time on their hands.
    If most church goers give the same attention a credence to the pastors political leanings as they do to the teachings of Christ – there is no problem!

    Report Post »  
  • poverty.sucks
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:36pm

    Pastors being political is nothing new compared to Pro-Choice advocates are involved in schemes to promote killing babies.

    Report Post » poverty.sucks  
    • bernbart
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:52pm

      Fetus its a fetus!!!! Abortion is a legal medical procedure and a woman’s right to privacy is protected by the U.S. Constitution. The only people committing murder are the so-called pro lifers, the anti women , domestic terrorists from OR who harass women and kill doctors.

      Don’t like abortion, don’t have one. Otherwise it is none of your business.

      Report Post »  
    • RIGEL_ORION
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:57pm

      Darn Straight. Just like back in the South. Don’t like slavery, don’t own anybody. Otherwise its none of your business.

      Report Post »  
    • RIGEL_ORION
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:07pm

      After all Bernie Baby,

      It‘s really about where you draw the humanity line isn’t it?! If you’re not a human based on your age, development stage or color we can go ahead and ignore any barbarism to that ‘slave’, ‘fetus’ or whatever non-human ‘thing’ you want to call it.

      Report Post »  
    • antisocialist
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:13pm

      but save the trees and the salamanders, right berbutt

      Report Post » antisocialist  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:16pm

      Thank you for that second post Rigel_Orion. I was hoping that was sarcasm, glad you clarified.

      Murder is murder, trying to justify it by rationalizing that it is “just a fetus” is as lame as it gets. But hey, the Supreme Court says so, huh?

      Report Post »  
    • Dudley Do-Right
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:19pm

      It becomes my business when my tax dollars are used to fund your abortion. Don’t like it, keep your promiscuous lifestyle out of my wallet!

      Report Post »  
    • momprayn
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:37pm

      BERN – Sorry, it can be proven to be unconsstitutional — has nothing to do with “privacy rights”, etc. — it was ruled by an activist judge…..http://www.rightgrrl.com/carolyn/roe.html
      Even most prolifers don’t know that b/c they were fooled so well. I’m waiting for it to be reversed & justice to come back to this nation and hopefully God will bless us…….again.

      Report Post »  
    • Bro Geo Too
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 9:18pm

      Sorry, Beanbart: so far-common sense 8, you 0.

      Report Post »  
    • bread and circuses
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 7:15am

      @BERNBART
      If I follow your logic then it is ok for someone to k!ll you because it may have no effect on me

      Report Post »  
    • Ohello
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 9:32am

      Bumfart;
      Abortion is counter to our founding principles of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Now how can a person pursue happiness, or enjoy liberty if they were murdered before being born?

      Explain that Burnfart, I’d like to see you try you, you , you …… un-aborted baby. How would you like to be aborted before you were born?? Answer that!!!

      Report Post »  
    • sodacrackers2
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 3:33pm

      Was just reading how the UN and Planned Parenthood was involved in China’s one child policy and even helped them with abortions up to 8 months. The women were finding out the gender of the babies, and aborting the females, or abandoning them after birth, or the government was just taking them from mothers and fathers and selling them to infertile couples from other countries. The chickens are coming to roost for the secular humanists, communists, and Marxists, who are so evil that they actually believe that they alone can destroy the world in order to rebuild in their own image. What a sad bunch of evil creeps.

      Report Post »  
  • Cell92
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:35pm

    On AUSCS’s Barry Lynn harping about how the Pulpit Freedom Sunday would “violate the law”:

    A unjust law is no law at all–St. Augustine.

    Report Post »  
    • encinom
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:52pm

      Nothing unjust about the law, the Pastors receive tax exempt status to operate a religous institution, not a PAC. If are free to form PACs and other tax exempt poitical organizatons. Desolve the Churhc if they want and turn it into a PAC.

      Report Post »  
  • Bernard
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:35pm

    “Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AUSCS), among other groups opposed to faith and religion in the public sphere, are publicly lamenting the initiative.”
    It is interesting that this groups STOOD SILENT WHEN IT COMES TO BLACK CHURCHES. Where it is the custom for the black Minister to use the pulpit to preach political and not religious issues, and this has been done for decades without a single word from the AUSCS.
    It is because of this tradition most black leaders are also ministers. Reverend Jesse Jackson, Reverend Sharpton, Reverend Martin Luther King, Reverend Wright to name a few. The black church and it’s congregation HAS BLATANTLY VIOLATED THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE without a single opposition.
    Now we have the Muslim problem where MOSQUES JUST LIKE BLACK CHURCHES are using the pulpit to first address political issues, recruit members for a greater cause in being a Jihadist and propagate hate and lies about the host nations they have adopted.

    Report Post »  
    • kentuckypatriot
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:40pm

      That’s a very good point! I find it interesting that it seems mostly against the Christians.. I’m sick of this persecution, when will it end?

      Report Post » kentuckypatriot  
    • MaxineH20Sux
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:43pm

      Amen!

      Report Post » MaxineH20Sux  
    • dnewton
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:03pm

      I think that pastors should be able to take on policy issues like abortion, planning issues like Bible studies in the home, how many liquor stores a community needs, sex education in the schools and even taxation. I don’t think that a pastor should say vote for Mr A versus Mr. B because one is the lesser of two evils. Most of the time, the lesser of two evils is what you end up with and you also take a chance in splitting the church.
      The reason there is so little racism in the US is that good and christian white people saw(not everyone of course) their black and Christian neighbors treated badly by the government. Once a Christian sees injustice imposed on another Christian brother, there should be no delay in moving to fix that. As long as the church stays out of politics, there will be a delayed response to social problems. Churches split over the slavery issue and thus were made ineffective. That cost us over 600,000 casualties in the War of Northern Aggression.

      Report Post »  
  • chicago76
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:32pm

    LBJ was one mean crazy SOB. It is not surprising that people thought he had Kennedy assassinated.

    Report Post »  
  • Cell92
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:24pm

    Of course, pastors should NEVER preach politics from the pulpit … unless it’s Rev. Jesse Jackson, Rev. Al Sharpton, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, American Isamic clerics who preach destroying America …Eagerly awaiting AUSCS jumping in to rebuke Rev. Jesse or Al … don’t hold your breath.

    Report Post »  
  • GuardianoftheWolves
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:20pm

    Christianity doesnt come from a church ! It comes from each and all of our beliefs , not so much what we are taught but simply what we chose to believe !

    Do you believe in God ? Do you believe in the Bible ?

    Most of what was written in the Bible was written by Man !

    Most Religions if not all were written by man , who do you want to follow ?

    Report Post »  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:30pm

      If you believe you are a Christian I have some sad news for you.

      It is NOT what you want to believe. It is what God’s Word says.

      Report Post »  
    • nappy
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:41pm

      All religions were created by Man. There are no direct quotes from any God that can be proven to be so.

      Report Post »  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:43pm

      Perhaps I was a bit hasty in my response, if so I apologize. I read that you do not follow the Bible and simply believe what feels good to you. Maybe I misunderstood and you were saying religions or church denominations are not important. I would agree with that, the only thing that is important is your personal relationship with Jesus Christ and being guided by the Holy Spirit who indwells your heart from the time of your conversion.

      Again, if i misinterpreted your post I apologize. If I did not than I pray you ask God for guidance in this matter. You cannot just dictate your own religion.

      Report Post »  
    • antisocialist
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:03pm

      what is your point?

      Report Post » antisocialist  
    • bernbart
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:03pm

      The bible is the biggest selling book of fiction in the world.

      Report Post »  
    • Ohello
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 9:54am

      Yes I have a friend who is becoming a so called Christian deacon in a main line denomination. He too believes that the Bible is not God’s Word and that God does not mean what He says about morality in the Bible. Such teachers will pay a heavy price for misleading their congregations. He thinks he has revelations that are outside the Scriptures (other authors). Some are that it is okay to be gay. (He himself is not).
      Christians believe in righteousness of God as God has revealed in the Scriptures. None can achieve His righteousness, so God, to show His great Mercy, and Grace, provided Himself in Jesus incarnate as a covering for sins. God’s Grace provides the seed for faith in Jesus, and for the transformation which regenerates the human heart which is thankful to the point of action to sacrifice sinful behavior and live a life pleasing to God. Mistakes are made, the heart is convicted, repentance and change ensure, the path of righteousness regained. Faith in Jesus provides justification and salvation. God chooses whom He chooses so we still have unregenerate hearts acting out in society, the gate to perdition is wide, the gate to salvation is narrow and only a few saved, and since God chooses, and God is God, who are we to argue?
      I hope He has chosen my friend and will provide Mercy, Grace, and renewing of the mind.

      Report Post »  
  • Anonymous T. Irrelevant
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:19pm

    “PS: If churches in your community violate the no-electioneering rule on Sunday, let us know. We’ll report the action to the IRS. Learn more at Project Fair Play.”
    —————————————————————————
    Somebody report Reverand Wright, Jesse Jackson, and Reverand Al, among other black “ministers” who preach for Obama every Sunday.
    I could be wrong, but there are still a large amount of black people who will vote for Obama and I would bet that their are hearing it in their church, but then I think that those that go to church are probably not the welfare types.

    Report Post » Anonymous T. Irrelevant  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:32pm

      I am guessing these “folk” are not declaring themselves under 501C3.

      Report Post »  
    • chicago76
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:38pm

      Blacks will vote for O again 20-1. As long as he keeps the government benefits flowing. Just another tribal affiliation. Like Saddam Hussein ruled Iraq as part of a minority tribe and used it to suppress the rights of the majority of Iraqis. No matter how bad the country got for everybody else, his tribe always supported him because they got promises of benefits.

      Report Post »  
  • KickinBack
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:17pm

    (Warning…To keep negative responses to a minimum, kickinback is alerting fellow blazers that the below comment is in fact, a vain attempt at sarcasm. kickinback cannot be held liable for those that may misinterpret this post. Reader discretion is advised.)

    The gall of those pesky nonprofit groups! Brainwashing the people, telling them who to vote for. The horror of it all! We certainly can’t have them acting like unions now can we?

    Report Post » KickinBack  
  • Anonymous T. Irrelevant
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:12pm

    If the lazy, knuckle-heads would do their homework, they wouldn’t NEED a pastor telling them how to vote. My pastor is politically intelligent, but only preaches from the Bible. His opinions before and after church aren’t part of the sermon.

    Report Post » Anonymous T. Irrelevant  
    • beckinista
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 4:04pm

      “If (they) would only do their own homework….” This could be said of left-leaning churches as well, which is why preachers like Jim Wallace (an avowed Marxist) say they are just preaching the Bible when they preach their brand of Social Justice. They teach what they believe are the actions the Bible calls on the people to do. All we want on the right is the freedom to do the same. Just because we are politically conservative doesn’t mean we have lost the right of free speech from the pulpit. Unfortunately, the athiestic, non-religious and left-leaning groups don’t seem to see it that way. Let your preacher teach what he wants – SHORT OF ENDORSEMENT – and let ours do the same.

      Report Post » beckinista  
  • MrMagoo
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:09pm

    I‘m not a member of any religious faith but will readily contribute to a defense fund if the IRS goe’s after these brave Pastors.Its high time that the Johnson Amendment is challenged and stricken from the tax code.And thanks much G.B.radio,TV, and the Blaze for AGAIN fighting the good fight through exposure and education.I’ve never heard about this on any other media.

    Report Post » MrMagoo  
    • BIGJAYINPA
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:22pm

      I really don’t see a problem here. After all BLACK Churches in Philadelphia have been engaged in the Political process for years. In fact the Sunday prior to election day is a mandatory church day for any BLACK running for office in the Philly area. When any Democrat candidate visits Philly He or She MUST make a mandatory stop at one or two of the bigger, more influential BLACK Churches before getting their Cheesesteak from Pats…Just sayin’

      Report Post » BIGJAYINPA  
  • momsense
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:08pm

    Unfortunately it’s been happening for more than 25 years in the Episcopal church. We aren’t teachning the Christian Gpspel as much as we are teaching the Gospel according to Karl Marx. These people actually pray for“ Social Justice” or the right for the government to determine the means method, manner and measure in which the person is to be charitable., not the individual himself. Any wonder why there’s been a mass exodus of Episcopalians back to the Catholic Church?

    Report Post »  
    • slr4528
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:36pm

      Wow…me being one of them.

      Report Post »  
    • FNG
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 2:59pm

      My wife and I are considering other churches as well.

      Report Post » FNG  
    • Mohawk1773
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 9:43pm

      Add Methodist to those denominations pushing Marxism.

      Report Post » Mohawk1773  
  • trolltrainer
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:06pm

    There should be a separation of church and state and churches should not be used to promote candidates.

    That said, a preacher, pastor, minister, priest…whatever has the right to preach what he wants from his pulpit. If that includes an examination of where the political candidates stand on issues important to the church then the government has NO say in what the church does. Separation is separation. STAY OUT OF OUR CHURCHES!

    If you want to use revoking the tax exempt status to punish the church then so be it. The churches will continue to do God’s work in the community…That is what we do.

    Report Post »  
    • Dustyluv
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:15pm

      Why should there be a separation? The only reason would be to protect the Church.

      Report Post »  
    • MrMagoo
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:21pm

      @Troll Trainer.”There should be a separation of church and state and churches should not be used to promote candidates.”

      Reverend Wright preached hate politics for years from a pulpit.Maybe he still doe’s.How about the Reverends Sharpton and Jackson? Do they even have a church?How about Father Michael Pfleger?Or Minister Louie Farrakhan ?????

      Just last week….
      http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=all_the_presidents_frenemies

      Report Post » MrMagoo  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:28pm

      Why should there be a separation? Do you know ANYTHING about Christian history? Do you think the pilgrims came here for freedom of religion? They came here for freedom of THEIR religion! Every colony except two had state decreed worship. Some were tolerant of other denominations, most were not. Do you want to pay taxes to support the state church? Do you want to be forced to baptize your children into that church despite your own personal beliefs? Do you want the government telling you how to worship?

      Christians in this country today are forgetting the work it took to get the freedom they enjoy. They are too busy whining about a dusty copy of the ten commandments hanging in a public school or a manger scene in a courthouse. They turn the word “God” in the pledge into a life or death matter. Do you think this is a Christian nation? Nations do NOT nave souls, people do! You cannot drag people to Christ kicking and screaming, you cannot ram Christianity down their throats. Is that what Jesus taught? It is what the inquisition tried to do.

      I am NOT saying that we should not elect Christian leaders. We SHOULD! In fact, that should be the number one priority. What I am saying is before we can turn back to God as a nation we each need to get down on our knees and turn back to Him in our personal lives. You cannot legislate morality or Christianity.

      Report Post »  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:34pm

      MrMagoo,

      And would YOU set foot into one of these churches?

      I rest my case. :-)

      Report Post »  
    • RIGEL_ORION
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:48pm

      No, that’s actually not how it works. It’s government being able to get involved and influence churches that is the real danger.

      The constitution insures that there is no mechanism for one church to get its leaders elected and then use this power to crush all other religions.

      If anything I’d say that this 1950s law has, like so many lefty laws, been used to intimidate one group into playing by the rules while their favored churches are allowed to basically ignore it. If that’s not the government, by omission, promoting one group of churches over another, I don’t know what is.

      Report Post »  
    • Countrygirl1362
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:00pm

      Why are they trying to enforce the Russian Constitution and not the American Constitution?

      Report Post »  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:07pm

      @ Rigil Orion:

      “No, that’s actually not how it works. It’s government being able to get involved and influence churches that is the real danger.”

      er…agreed. The danger is the government dictating worship.

      “The constitution insures that there is no mechanism for one church to get its leaders elected and then use this power to crush all other religions.”

      So it is a particular denomination that wants to take over? Like black liberation theology? Once again…Agreed. Where is the argument? This is why we need separation. Not just to protect freedom of worship but ALSO to protect our government.

      “If anything I’d say that this 1950s law has, like so many lefty laws, been used to intimidate one group into playing by the rules while their favored churches are allowed to basically ignore it. If that’s not the government, by omission, promoting one group of churches over another, I don’t know what is.”

      Yeah…but does it really matter? The left are just loud and obnoxious. Yeah, there are some radical left “ministers.” But Pat Robertson has also been outspoken and he is going off the deep end lately. Likewise, as a Liberty Alumni I love Jerry Falwell but he was always chest deep in politics himself. Pastors should be able to preach what they believe no matter which side of the isle they fall on. If you do not like their message then don’t go to their church. Simple. What I am speaking about above is more formal involvement in pol

      Report Post »  
    • MrMagoo
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:12pm

      TrollTrainer,I’d walk into one of those churches.But for practicality reasons,why would I?I have nothing in common beyond being a American citizen.
      I was raised Catholic from 5 yrs.old, I am confirmed, with Catholic schooling until 9th grade .I went through all the rituals and the traditions.I became disenchanted with it all after graduation from a public school.That was 1975.Maybe someday I’ll return to the Catholic church,but it’ll be on my terms.I’m waiting to see a old fashioned Baptist tent revival,regular people off the streets,professing and coming to God.
      Until then,would YOU visit St. Sabina’s Church on the South Side of Chicago?I’ll rest my case :)

      Report Post » MrMagoo  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:29pm

      MrMagoo,

      I was raised Roman Catholic. Quit going at 16. My wife all but forced me into a Baptist church at age 30. I started going just to shut her up. It took all of two months for me to repent and ask Christ into my life. I was saved at that moment but after almost a year Tom Farrell, an evangelist ( http://www.farrellministries.org/ ) came to our church and on the third night my wife and I went forward and dedicated our lives to full time service. I have since graduated from Liberty University with a Th.M. and am working on a M.Div. I serve in my church and on the AWANA ministry team.

      Life is short my friend, get yourself into a church. It does not matter the denomination, just make sure it is a God-fearing, Bible-believing church. Pray about it, ask God for guidance.

      As a Catholic it was a bitter pill being baptized (again). I fought it, I tried to justify myself every way I could. But in the end I made a public profession of my new faith and was dunked. That was the best day of my life! God bless brother.

      Report Post »  
    • MrMagoo
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:02pm

      Thanks TrollTrainer,I can tell your a good,thoughtful person.I’m a truck driver,with a GED,and lots of experience on the road.Over 2 million and a half miles,on the clock,accident free.I work for a terrific company.He’s a multi-millionaire and treats us very fairly,without a union.
      And at my age and occupation,God isn’t my co-pilot,he’s my guiding light.I just need to accept Him.I’m working on it.TY.

      Report Post » MrMagoo  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 8:58pm

      hmmm…Yeah, true floridacracker. I am a florida ******* too BTW. But I have read the book and you know what? We win in the end. I pray it is the end times, I am ready. I will either be raptured or I will die. Either way, I have eternal life. So I will preach the gospel until my last breath. Nothing else matters. :-)

      Report Post »  
    • snooop1e
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 8:50pm

      The Constitution does not say that Churches cannot make political statements or tell parishoners not to vote for a candidate that is in favor of Partial Birth Abortion. The Constitution only says that the state cannot declare a specific religion the state religion or institute a specific religion. Liberals and Politicians have been twisting the Constitution to say something that it doesn’t say. The founding fathers wanted to keep politicians from mandating a religion not prevent religions from affecting politics. Somebody show me where in the US Constitution it says there should be separation from church and state?

      Report Post » snooop1e  
  • booger71
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:04pm

    Pastors need to speak of the utter disdain for freedom and liberty that all levels of government have been guilty of

    Report Post » booger71  
  • godhead
    Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:04pm

    Pastors? You mean like Pat Robertson? Is he political? Come on, now way. I mean, sure he ran for the Republican nomination, but that doesn’t mean anything. TW, I heard Mrs Robertson is divorcing him because he has Alzheimers. Shameful.

    Now friends, gather ’round friends. Pass the plate friends.

    Report Post »  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:46pm

      Are you saying men of God cannot run for political office?

      Lol, in your fairy dust and lollypop world maybe…

      Report Post »  
    • woodyl1011fl
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 11:21pm

      Pat Robertson is not nor ever has been a pastor of anything but wouldn‘t expect a liberal to know that or care doesn’t fit your agenda, prideful arrogance or condescending sarcasm. He does however have foot in mouth disease on occasion.

      Report Post »  
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