Activists Warn: Survival of ’Uncontacted’ Tribes Threatened by Illegal Logging
- Posted on February 2, 2011 at 6:31pm by
Meredith Jessup
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A tribe living in the thick jungles of Brazil was discovered as the Brazilian government investigated some of the most remote parts of the Amazon Rainforest. According to Brazil’s Indian Affairs department, the tribe has never had contact with modern civilization.
Astonishing images of the tribe were taken in 2008, but brand new photos were released this week by Survival International, a tribal-advocacy group. This tribe was reportedly spotted near the Envira River in western Brazil, possibly the descendants of indians who escaped from the country’s rubber boom last century. “The photos reveal a thriving, healthy community,” the group’s website says.
Survival International hopes the images will help spread awareness about its campaign to protect the tribe’s land from encroaching illegal loggers from Peru.
“The illegal loggers will destroy this tribe. It’s vital that the Peruvian government stop them before time runs out. The people in these photos are self-evidently healthy and thriving. What they need from us is their territory protected, so that they can make their own choices about their future,” says Survival’s Director Stephen Corry.
Worldwide, there are only an estimated 100 uncontacted tribes believed to exist. Last November, The Blaze reported that the Peruvian government had discovered a similarly untouched tribe in the country’s Kugapakori Nahua Nanti reserve.
“We’re trying to bring awareness to uncontacted tribes, because they are so vulnerable. Governments often deny that they exist,” said Tess Thackara, Survival International’s U.S. coordinator. “We‘re releasing these images because we need evidence to prove they’re there.”
h/t Business Insider
Author’s note: This story has been updated from its original version.
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Comments (151)
opencanofworms
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:31pmcome on, at least build them a McDonald’s.
Report Post »dataway
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:51pmI think most of your comments are very humorous. See Republicans are wittier than Libs.
Whether this is an old story or not, leaving them alone is the best thing to do.
Report Post »LibertyAdvocate
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:34pmOr give them a Coke machine. I think I remember hearing of a story in the 90s about a tribe in Mexico that has a Coke truck come every now and then, but otherwise they live off the forest.
Report Post »tlewis
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:30pmSurely they will, if not already, met ACORN during the elections!!!
Report Post »Perdido
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:26pmSend in the misionaries & then leave them alone. Actually, I would like to go live with them.
Report Post »Helldogger
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:24pmI wonder if they have a giant gorilla wonderin around in that neck of the woods lookin for blondes?
Report Post »Smokey_Bojangles
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:22pmCool Beans! Let’s send them The Communist Manifesto!
Report Post »firstlast
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 11:46amThey’re already communists. A tribe is a commune. They hunt for the whole village. They probably even have a medicine man who heals the sick for free.
Report Post »drago
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:22pmIf im not mistaken, these pictures have appeared before, with the same claim, i may be wrong, memorey’s not what is used to be…….
Report Post »ICANHANDLETHETRUTH
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:22pmI say leave them alone, lets not corrupt them with our politics, our culture ect. ect. maybe thats what we need……..
Report Post »SlimnRanger
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 10:06pmI totally agree ICANDLE.they should be left alone,God knows educated folks have made a mess of things even though alot of good things have happened as well not so sure that this tribe has it better at times
Report Post »BlackPantherParty
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:21pmI’m not convinced that its real. But if it is, why leave them alone? I think modern society has a lot to offer…medicine comes to mind. actually wait never-mind, your right, bleeding someone for a headache and sacrificing your cousin to keep your god happy is probably the best way to live.
I’m not advocating forced integration into “society”but, give them a choice.
Report Post »Dolt
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:20pmFunny… this is almost the exact story and images from a year ago when it turned out to be a hoax. Better fact check this one a little closer, Blazers.
Report Post »ProudInfidel
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:19pmI wonder if this tribe can confirm the existence of BigFoot.
Report Post »Blaze Boy
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:17pmWell we have another tribe that they will move, but let ‘em stay their doing no harm.
Report Post »empty13
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:14pmcorrection: FORMER one of last uncontacted tribes in the world.
Report Post »Redistributor
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:12pmAw shuckes…that’s uncle Billy. I can him every weekend.
Report Post »TANK3584
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:12pmAdd your comments
bisbad1955
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:12pmI think the second picture is a gal in a bikini talking on a cell phone.
Report Post »PeachyinGA
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:43pmI was going to write the same thing after I read through all of the comments! If they do get cell service, seems like a nice place to build an escape bunker for the great American meltdown that is coming our way :) We could teach them canning in a trade for teaching us how to hunt and forage…
Report Post »CrusaderPatriot
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:11pmDrop one empty coke bottle in there and come back in a few years to see what happens! lol
Report Post »Its Gonna Getcha
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 3:42amThinking same.
Report Post »NYmike11
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:11pmIf there are so lost where did that pan with the handles come from leaning against the rock? It looks rather commercially made. I smell rat.
Report Post »fourfreedom
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:54pmOk, but isn’t that a metal machette in the hand of one of them? Where did they get that at?
Report Post »Buck Bagaw
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 10:18amThe items referred to could have been obtained in trade from other tribes. It doesn’t prove there has been “contact”.
Report Post »TANK3584
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:09pmSend obama over there…..He can be their community organizer.
Report Post »Adam
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:21pmlol
Report Post »Dan85
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:09pmThere is a story in the guardian in May of 2008 about this tribe. Somebody get Rachel Maddow off the storyline background check here.
fivebyfive
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:02pmdeja vu all over again
Report Post »I seem to recall these
same pics about a year ago
In God We Trust
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:46pmIt’s been awhile, but I also remember something about a lost tribe hoax.
Report Post »mindy
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:02pmThese look amazingly like pictures (and similar story) that came out about a year ago and was proved to be a hoax at that time. Anyone else remember that?
Report Post »randy
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:22pmYeah I remember that.
And I bet if you do a little digging, you‘ll find a pair of Nike’s just inside the huts.
I’m sorry, I hate being so cynical, but I don’t believ thhis story at all.
Report Post »proliance
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:37pmSome pics from the same photographer in 2008.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/05/uncontacted_tribe_photographed.html
Report Post »par4thecourse
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:57pmI do believe that there are tribes out there that haven’t had contact with “civilization” and this might be one, but if you take a good look at the first photo the kid in the middle has a big knife made of steel so someone has been visiting.
Report Post »Red Bubba
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:58pmKind of like the hoax 30 years before that. Is that a store-bought bowl in the first pic?
Report Post »Where do I send money to preserve them like museum pieces so I can imagine how great it would be to live in peace and harmony? Hand-to-mouth subsitence, no anitbiotics, it must be bliss.
imacin2000
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 12:24amI sure remember – just thinking that myself as I read the story. I thought it was debunked already. Looks like the same photos. Could this ge the result of the new hires? I hope not.
Report Post »luckyme
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:01pm912828Buckeye
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 7:57pm
Leave’em alone!
Report Post »Report Post » Log in to ReplyReply
I add, uncorrupted!
P C BE DAMNED
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:21pmEverybody is corrupted. These tribes know of all the sins in the world and they even commit murders. They are not from the garden of eden.
Report Post »UlyssesP
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:00pmOrganize them in solidarity with workers of the world.
Report Post »RLTW
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:44pmThat and make sure they’ve got the new light bulb
Report Post »AZBOB
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 7:59pmAnd we think we know so much.
Report Post »what4
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 7:49amReally, them are future tax payers, freeloading and pillaging the planer fo god knows how long! Magic dust please….forget they even exist! If those scientists poke them with 1 needle..well i’m gonna!
Report Post »912828Buckeye
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 7:57pmLeave’em alone!
Report Post »beverlee
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:04pmAmen!
Report Post »Rothdeman
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:06pmI could not agree more!
Report Post »silentwatcher
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:07pmyes, leave them alone. At least one collection of humans that haven’t been corrupted. Of course, they can’t wait to go in and dress them, educate them, and teach them how to be ‘civilized’.
LEAVE THEM ALONE.
Report Post »Perdido
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:21pmSend in the missionaries then leave them alone.
Report Post »Xcori8r
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:21pmNo Obama, no Democrats, no liberals, no MSNBC, no IRS, no health care reform… for God’s sake let them live in peace. At least someone on this planet can enjoy liberty.
Report Post »Doctor of Truth
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:25pmDear Silent-Watcher. Sadly, ALL humans have been corrupted. Romans 5:12
Report Post »RepubliCorp
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:28pmhow can they live without obamacare?
Report Post »S G Applebee
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:54pmDear DOCTOR OF “TRUTH”,
Sadly, some people will never accept the fact that human beings were living all over the planet tens of thousands of years (and in some places hundreds of thousands of years) before the book you believe in said it was even created.
GODSAMERICA
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 8:56pmMaybe they were warning them off because they have had contact with the outside world to their regret and they want to stay away from the outside.
Report Post »Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:01pmIf you look real close, I think one of those guys are Keith Olberman, that’s his new gig? Talk about stretching to find a demographic, after a month he is going to run out of “Worlds worst person” candidates. “Hey, nunchucucu, that monkey you made last night was dry and stringy, you’re toad pudding is sour, you my good Sir, are the Worlds Worst Person”
Report Post »jzs
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:10pmThey’re socialists. Tribes such as this share the labor and share their food. Everyone works toward the best interest, the survival, of the group, not individual success. Groups such as this lead to the liberalism that still infects the human race like a plague. The sooner we eliminate that altruistic gene from the human genome the better.
Report Post »GONESURFING
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:11pmGlad to see that they have a website.
Report Post »My Sacred Honor
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:15pmMeh, throw a WII and a big screen TV under their feet and they will be “Dance Dance Fevering” til Christ comes and says “no,no, people…”
Report Post »My Sacred Honor
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:30pmjzs
…..
So sad. You are correct, that socialistic and even communistic SMALL societies thrive under that philosophy, but, as you suggest through your smarmy, condescending remarks that a country of over 300 million can thrive under those conditions is asinine. That for any society to be able to thrive globally, while those with no incentive to do better must give MOST of what they make to care for those who will do nothing for themselves, actually CAN and WILL thrive or even survive is….I can’t even think of a word. “Impossible”. That kind of system only enboldens those who allow the “sloth” side of their human nature (and we all have that) to thrive, and those who are boarderline “take care of my business/allow others to take care of my business” to choose the dark side of work ethic and functioning society.
Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Do you know anyone who is “working the system” in order to get a government check? Maybe you are, I don’t know, but let’s assume you are working. Do you REALLY want your money that you worked hard for yourself to go to someone who has found a loophole in the system and can stay at home doing nothing but “surviving’ on YOUR dime? You should really think about that, and do not take my word. Ask friends, ask associates. I’ll bet you someone can tell you they are scamming within two days of serious inquiry.
Be fair to yourself and find your own truth, it is out there. Look everywhere you can, because it is painfully obvious you have been given the wrong direction. That is my opinion based on what i know to be true, and is by no means meant to coerce you or belittle yo. i want you, a fellow American to thrive and at least be on the correct side of facts. Please ask the questions.
Be safe, and good luck to you.
Semper Fi and My Oath was once spoken and is now renewed.
Report Post »FlatFoot
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:30pmThis is almost the exact same story that was run back in mid-2008. At that time people suggested this was a hoax. It was not. However, after it was misreported as a hoax and then subsequently as not a hoax, the ensuing damage control efforts did little to get the story and the message back out to the world. I guess this is attempt number two.
So, here it is again. Same old pictures. Some newer pictures. Same old video. Same old info. But now it’s a little over two years later.
This tribe was discovered in 1910 and its existence, as well as its general whereabouts at any given time, has been known since then. The Brazilian government has already acknowledged that it has known about the tribe since 1910, and the Brazilian government has had an official policy of no contact with the tribe since 1988 when the subject of making contact with them had been discussed in official terms.
You can read a brief story and see the same pictures from 2008 here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25350389/ns/technology_and_science-science/
Old news is still old.
But apparently the more recent photos were taken in June 2010. So says MSNBC, again.
http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/01/5965571-newly-released-photos-of-uncontacted-amazon-indian-tribe-give-us-a-glimpse-of-another-world
It is interesting nonetheless but I would hope that they would stop buzzing their hut tops with propeller airplanes. There are satellites that can take photos of your license plate ffs.
Report Post »Dustyluv
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:30pmTell them about Christ then all the Believers may get to go home…
Report Post »RLTW
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:42pmBefore I even looked at the thread, all I could think was please leave these people alone, God bless to all that agree.
Those that don’t please don’t send Al Gore for first contact.
Report Post »taskmaster78
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 9:43pmOh well not anymore.
Report Post »1TrueOne55
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 10:23pm@SilentWatcher
I bet they are more civilized then our modern society. they don’t pollute the environment they live in and only take what they need for that days survival. And they are not anxious over the riots in Egypt or the coming Insurrection in the US.
Report Post »StarBaby
Posted on February 2, 2011 at 11:09pmCan man rule himself? …..This was the first thought that came to my mind when I read this story.
Report Post »jzs
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 12:25amSacred, yes, I work, and unless you are among the top 10% of wage earners in the United States, I make more money and pay more taxes than you. My guess is that you make less than $100K a year, and you know where that puts you: among those to whom is the wealth of this country is distributed to rather than from.
You pay less for your schools than those wealthier in you district. You pay less for maintenance of the road in front of your house, for your neighborhood library and for the school that your children attend. You pay less for the police who protect your streets, less for the fire fighters who will put out the fire in your house or your neighbor’s, less for the people who pick up your trash. You pay less than the wealthy to defend our country and less to maintain interstate highways and commerce. You pay less for the people who keep your tap water from being polluted and your food free of e. coli.
Sacred, unless you are making $250K a year, you are on the receiving end for all the benefits this country has to offer, not the giving end. Yes, there is a redistribution of wealth in this country: from the rich to YOU. You are happy to be a socialist, I take it, as long as the benefits are coming your way. I you weren’t such a sloth, or stupid, you’d be making enough money to pay your share, pay the same for the services you receive as those richer than you. But your not. You are gaming the system and happy you don’t have to pay what other do for the same benefits.
You are a “fair weather” socialist. You are just fine paying you tiny part to maintain services you recieve in you community and as a citizen of the United States. But being the lazy, slothful person you seem to be, you don’t have the ability to go out, earn more, and stop mooching on the rich.
Report Post »GONESURFING
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 12:43amCan’t we all just get along.
Report Post »My Sacred Honor
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 12:52amjzs
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 12:25am
Sacred, yes, I work, and unless you are among the top 10% of wage earners in the United States, I make more money and pay more taxes than you. My guess is that you make less than $100K a year, and you know where that puts you: among those to whom is the wealth of this country is distributed to rather than from.
You pay less for your schools than those wealthier in you district. You pay less for maintenance of the road in front of your house, for your neighborhood library and for the school that your children attend. You pay less for the police who protect your streets, less for the fire fighters who will put out the fire in your house or your neighbor’s, less for the people who pick up your trash. You pay less than the wealthy to defend our country and less to maintain interstate highways and commerce. You pay less for the people who keep your tap water from being polluted and your food free of e. coli.
Sacred, unless you are making $250K a year, you are on the receiving end for all the benefits this country has to offer, not the giving end. Yes, there is a redistribution of wealth in this country: from the rich to YOU. You are happy to be a socialist, I take it, as long as the benefits are coming your way. I you weren’t such a sloth, or stupid, you’d be making enough money to pay your share, pay the same for the services you receive as those richer than you. But your not. You are gaming the system and happy you don’t have to pay what other do for the same benefits.
You are a “fair weather” socialist. You are just fine paying you tiny part to maintain services you recieve in you community and as a citizen of the United States. But being the lazy, slothful person you seem to be, you don’t have the ability to go out, earn more, and stop mooching on the rich.
I JUST PISSED MYSELF LAUGHING AT THAT ASSUMTIVE POST! Thank you SO MUCH!
Report Post »Lemme tell you a little about myself, my assumptive friend! You are ABSOLUTELY correct about my wages at this time. I moved from Georgia, from a lucrative job to live with and care for my Mother in Indiana so she wouldn’t have to stay in a nursing home with her terminal disease. I do not say this to draw on your non-existsant heart-strings, oh no! Neither my Mother nor myself are under any dilusions that her COPD was caused by anything other than her smoking habit, which SHE CHOSE AND TAKES FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR! Now.
I moved here, like I said, to care for her in this eastern Indiana farming town with nothing to offer AT ALL, and have in the year since I been here have been employed twice. The reason for this is simple. Although at the high point of my life I was making $8,333 a month as a contractor in Iraq in 2005 (that’s $100,000 a year. Don’t want you to hurt your texas instruments calc in the hard math…) when I was in high school, I was coming home from school in west Georgia and taking care of my grandfather’s black angus farm while he was still at work, doing somtimes 16+ hours in a shift supervising a glass factory in Atlanta. Now. What this Grandfather taught me through the years of being raised by him, was work ethic. Lemme say that again, Work. Ethic. That man, the baddest man I have EVER known, taught me the value and reward for a hard days work, and that any job worth doing was worth doing right. Even if that job was shovelling s*#t, you ByGod shovelled it where it needed to go. Then I went to the Marine Corps, where any amount of explaination of how that organization will escape you, but suffice to say they took the clay my Grampa gave them and they turned me into a Man that holds integrity as his Highest Standard.
Lets fast forward to today, shall we? Now I am here, caring for my mother, but I need to work so the household can survive. I work in a resteraunt where I make $7.25/hour, min wage, because that is the best this unemployed, government check-earning town can give me. But I still care well for my mom. I am eligible ( I am told) from the VA to receive a $200 a month check JUST for being a vet during wartime. I have not even looked into it. I have a commie, eco-terrorist sister who lives on government grants. I prolly could too, but I haven’t even looked into it. I live by my means and within my means. I have a 4 year old refurbished, failbot computer, I have 3 year old holy and trashed walmart $20 shoes, I have heat in my house, I have warmth when I go outside. I have what I need and I ask no one, and I mean NO ONE for anything else than what I have.
Now…….you stupid douchebag…..I don’t even remember what you were saying to me? Something about me being on welfare?
I’ll tell you what. How bout I give you my email, you mail me, I give you my address and you come see me. After you are satisfied with my “welfare” status, we can go out to the road and have a little “debriefing” discussion about it. After that, maybe you will recant your words and repent that you said such a stupid thing to such a man.
Beer afterwords?
My Sacred Honor
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 1:05amIn other words, JZS (after I reread your post and took a breath) I am recieving NOT AN EFFING DIME from the government and am subsisting on what my back and labor earns me. i don’t even get 40 hours a week as this is a start-up resteraunt and they can‘t afford a full week’s hours, let alone the raise they promised me. But you know what? I am a man, and the owner is a man, and men should be allowed to make fair contracts between one another and understanding should be allowed to exist between two men to make a contract, so long as that contract is agreeable between those two men.
Report Post »You call me a “fair weather socialist”? That I am happy as long as that government teet is in my mouth? I get NO checks save what my employer gives me, then I come home to my second job. Would YOU sacrifice your life to care for your parents? If you had to do that from sense of duty and NOT be paid to do it? Well I am. And next time you choose to falsely assume the lifestyle of a person, you had better choose more wisely.
If you were to call me out in real life, I’d introduce you to “obamacare” my dear ******, and let you test your brand new dental bennies.
You mess with a country-boy Marine, brother, you better come prepared.
Now eff you very much and good night.
sissykatz
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 6:04am@MY SACRED HONOR I for one am very proud of you!!!! You sir sound like a very honorable man, I believe you said you moved from Ga. the west part, That is where I am from also I still live in Ga, but closer to Atlanta. Do you know where Dallas is? That was my home and a wonderful place, Good luck to you Sir, and Thanks for serving in our military, You have my prayers and my admiration.
Report Post »GhostOfJefferson
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 9:32am@JZS
“They’re socialists. ”
Oh horse hockey. Your Stalin avatar fits you, you view everything in the world through the Socialist Prismatic Lens.
Fact is, since they are uncontacted, there’s no way to know what they are, how they are structured, and what economic system they may emulate. Your conjecture is just that, conjecture, however you posit it as fact. Very telling really, that you must by needs declare your ideology triumphant in cases where lack of evidence is necessarily part of the package. You sir, are an ideologue.
“Tribes such as this share the labor and share their food. Everyone works toward the best interest, the survival, of the group, not individual success. ”
Oh? They’re un-contacted. How do you know? You don’t.
“Groups such as this lead to the liberalism that still infects the human race like a plague.”
More conjecture without fact.
“The sooner we eliminate that altruistic gene from the human genome the better.”
Socialism is not altruism. Altruism is voluntary, not forced, otherwise it’s not altruism.
Report Post »GhostOfJefferson
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 9:40am@My Sacred Honor
JZS is pulling the fast and lazy stunt of making the implicit assertion that all government = socialism, and that all acts of altruism = socialism.
This displays a complete lack of the actual definition of socialism. Socialism is when the government owns, controls, and distributes the means of production in society to society in general. People acting together in concert for a common purpose is not socialism necessarily, nor altruism necessarily, but he wants you to believe that it is so. It‘s what he’s been taught all his life, what he believes fully now with faith and fervor, and what he’s dutifully regurgitating for all to see.
The Soviets, when they existed, had a very nasty habit of redefining every single artifact of civilization as either part of some kind of nascent or lumpen proletariat socialist movement, or as some reactionary oppressive capitalist movement, in order to maintain their fantasy world view that saw them pitted against the world. It’s religion, plain and simple, re-working its dogma into secular terms. JZS is demonstrating the True Believer syndrome, is what I’m saying.
Report Post »decendentof56
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 9:43amJZS
Report Post »What the h.ll are you talking about? First, you say how great socialism is, with everyone ‘working’ together for the common good. Then, you say that people like this lead to liberalism that infects the human race like a plague.
Which is it? I mean, I assume you are refering to the liberalism that has morphed into socialism.
Anyway, the hippies of the 60′s tried, and their communes eventually failed. Some produced for the group, while some figured out that they could eat without lifting a finger. It caused turmoil, and led to commune collapse.
My experience working in a union environment further confirmed the reality of what happened with regards to the hippie communes. Though I and many others were committed to customer service, others did not produce, but still collected their paychecks.
jzs
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 10:43amSacred, you challenged me to a duel? At least you were polite about it, unlike the last time when you said outright that you were going to deprive me of my life (I believe they removed that post).
You missed my point, and no I didn’t suggest you were on welfare. Let me be very concrete. Suppose you have children in school. In my district public schools are funded mostly by property taxes. So those living on the most valuable property and those with the largest, nicest houses (which in general are the richest people) pay far, far more than the rest in property taxes and therefore contribute far more in taxes to support the public school. So the rich kids go to the same school as the poor in that neighborhood, but the rich are paying much more for the same education.
What’s that called? Redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor. The same applies road maintenance in front of your house, the fire department, police, the public libraries, food inspection, water purification and every single other service the government supplies. You drink the same water, but you paid a lot less than the rich to get that water to your house.
That was my point. You are the beneficiary of the wealth redistribution in this country. Most people are. Only blissful lack of awareness of that fact allow people to rail against socialism, when they are in fact the beneficiaries of the system we have.
Do you go to the VA for medical treatment? The VA is 100% socialized health care – the government owns the hospitals and pays the doctors. As I understand it, vets like you realize that’s a good deal compared to the healthcare most Americans have. Vets deserve the best, but the fact remains that is 100% socialized health care.
Report Post »jzs
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 11:12amGhost and Decendant, my post about the tribe being socialist was at least 50% a joke. And Ghost you’re correct, nobody knows the dynamics of that tribe. But a lot is known about how similiar tribes function. Take an anthropology class. But you’re correct, for what your point is worth.
Hey guys, I’m not a socialist, I’m a capitalist. But I also believe that our country should take care of their own.
We’ve seen what happens with unfettered capitalism. The wealthy (think the Rockefellers) can leverage their wealth to buy other companies, and then others, until they control so much wealth the become something like kings. Since they are the only people that make cars say, they can charge you what they want and since they are the only game in town, they can pay you whatever they want if you work there, if your options are either work for almost nothing or starve. Good for the rich guy, bad for everyone else. Simplistically speaking, that’s why we have anti-trust laws and why we have minimum wage. That’s why unions were formed, to give the people who work some influence over their wages and working conditions.
Nobody wants, say, two or three people to own every business in the United States. We now have laws to prevent that. Why? Because America wants a middle class.
Speaking of government controlling the means of production, Ghost, the “government takeover” of the auto industry work out pretty well didn’t it? Those companies would have been gone, permenantly, along with all the jobs. Those companies are now thriving, paying off their loans and buying back their companies. I don’t want the government to run GM. But that temporary measure was a home run, something you won’t hear on FOX.
Report Post »GhostOfJefferson
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 11:50am@JVS
“Ghost and Decendant, my post about the tribe being socialist was at least 50% a joke. And Ghost you’re correct, nobody knows the dynamics of that tribe. But a lot is known about how similiar tribes function.”
There are theories/speculations. Since there is no “means of production” per se in most all of them, but rather subsistence hunting and gathering, and sharing/barter, that doesn’t really indicate any type of economy other than “tribal economy”.
“Take an anthropology class. But you’re correct, for what your point is worth.”
I’ve taken anthropology classes, thanks.
“Hey guys, I’m not a socialist, I’m a capitalist. But I also believe that our country should take care of their own.”
The only way to take care of our own is through capitalism (free market, not mercantlism which most people mean when they say capitalism).
“We’ve seen what happens with unfettered capitalism. ”
No we haven’t. We (the U.S. and Europe) went from feudalism, to mercantilism and kind of stayed there. The closest to free markets was the U.S., where socialism never really caught on in the grand scheme of things. Europe was stuck at mercantlism, and went downhill from there, and surprise surprise, socialism caught on there, being just another variation on the previous themes.
“The wealthy (think the Rockefellers) can leverage their wealth to buy other companies, and then others, until they control so much wealth the become something like kings. ”
Bill Gates cannot force me to do a damned thing. Kings can. There’s your difference.
“Since they are the only people that make cars say, they can charge you what they want and since they are the only game in town, they can pay you whatever they want if you work there, if your options are either work for almost nothing or starve.”
False. You can (and many people have) start up your own car (or other transport) company. That‘s how an actual market works to the forces you’ve outlined. It’s not a zero sum game.
“Good for the rich guy, bad for everyone else. Simplistically speaking, that’s why we have anti-trust laws and why we have minimum wage. ”
The reason we have those are the mercantilists who were starting to fail against the upsurge of actual free market types in the 19th century. The mercantilists were politically connected, got laws passed that stifled competition, and now we have real legally sanctioned monopolies that do a lot of what you outline as evils of capitalism, which could not happen without government grant.
“That’s why unions were formed, to give the people who work some influence over their wages and working conditions.”
And those were legit. I’m not starry eyed about free markets, and believe fully in freedom of association, including the right to form groups (voluntarily) to negotiate with some level of leverage.
“Speaking of government controlling the means of production, Ghost, the “government takeover” of the auto industry work out pretty well didn’t it?”
Not really, no. They’re producing cars nobody wants, sell those cars to themselves and heavily subsidize the sales to us commoners with our own money, and calling it a profit (Volt comes to mind here). Nobody has technically paid back anything yet, and if they do, it’s because of the government selling cars to itself, little more.
“Those companies would have been gone, permenantly, ”
And good riddance to them.
“along with all the jobs.”
False. It’s not zero sum. When a major industry goes away, the work force moves on and becomes employed elsewhere. If you have a job and the company closes, do you sit at home the rest of your life crying, or do you go out and get another job with another company? If you’re like most people, you get a different job at a different company, even if it means you pull up your tent stakes and move to another city or state.
“Those companies are now thriving, paying off their loans and buying back their companies. I don’t want the government to run GM. But that temporary measure was a home run, something you won’t hear on FOX.”
Actually, sales are slumping for most all car manufacturers in general, but especially GM, and GM reported the largest drop in sales in 28 years in August (last numbers I have).
Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-01/gm-s-total-u-s-vehicle-sales-fell-24-9-last-month-more-than-estimated.html
“GM said deliveries fell 25 percent to 185,176 from 246,479 last August, when the U.S. government’s “cash for clunkers” incentive program boosted sales.”
Once the market manipulation stopped, the sales slowed greatly. Ultimately the government cannot effectively and consistently long term manipulate the market. GM sadly is in bad shape and will continue to be, and if they “pay off their so called loans” they’ll be right back to square one and in decline.
And frankly, rightfully so. They’re cars may be decent (don’t honestly know, I buy Toyota and Ford as a rule, except for one 1976 Corvette I bought as a hobby car, which probably doesn’t count since I bought it used), however, their management and union dealings have crippled them, and last check, they haven’t changed those things at all, even if they shuffled around a couple of execs.
Report Post »jzs
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 2:21pmGhost, you are overly fond of the word “mercantilism.” You lost me early on with your statement that, ” We (the U.S. and Europe) went from feudalism, to mercantilism and kind of stayed there.” Historians will surprised to learn that the United States was feudalistic. And that the United States (and Europe) doesn’t have a capitalistic economy will surprise a lot of economists.
If you think anti-trust laws “stifled” competition, all I can say is you must not understand the concept.
With regard to GM, the information you posted is from September of last year. Car sales were down Ghost? Sales of every commodity were down. That what it means to be in a recession. GM sales were up 23% in January. http://economy.kansascity.com/?q=node/9695 That article is from today.
You may wish that the US auto industry had failed, but I doubt you’ll get a lot of support for that position. And your claim that people would have simply gone and found another job, well, maybe you should read more news.
Better get back to my mercantilistic job.
Report Post »GhostOfJefferson
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 2:30pm@JZS
“Ghost, you are overly fond of the word “mercantilism.” ”
Just using words as if they had meaning.
“You lost me early on with your statement that, ” We (the U.S. and Europe) went from feudalism, to mercantilism and kind of stayed there.” Historians will surprised to learn that the United States was feudalistic.”
Well, we were British at one time, which was, last check, a monarchy.
“And that the United States (and Europe) doesn’t have a capitalistic economy will surprise a lot of economists.”
Then they should study harder if they wish to claim the mantel of “economist”.
“If you think anti-trust laws “stifled” competition, all I can say is you must not understand the concept.”
Ah, great rebuttal. Full of facts.
“With regard to GM, the information you posted is from September of last year.”
September 2010. Which was a few months ago. Nice word play though, grats.
“Car sales were down Ghost? Sales of every commodity were down. That what it means to be in a recession. ”
Ergo, your claim that they’re booming is false. See how that works?
“GM sales were up 23% in January. http://economy.kansascity.com/?q=node/9695 That article is from today.”
“The largest U.S. car company says it sold 178,896 cars and trucks last month”
Hardly booming, compared to the numbers you wish to use to claim a booming recovery, which apparently are the “cash for clunkers” spike.
“You may wish that the US auto industry had failed,”
I don’t have to wish for it, they did fail. Utterly.
“But I doubt you’ll get a lot of support for that position. ”
Support or lack of support does not compel me to change opinion, only facts.
“And your claim that people would have simply gone and found another job, well, maybe you should read more news.”
LOL! Ok guy, you got me. People choose one company to work for at age 18 (or 23 if they’re in college) and if that company goes out of business, they are forever after unemployed and sit around cursing their luck at having to live the rest of their lives in poverty. *facepalm*
“Better get back to my mercantilistic job.”
Ok, have fun.
Report Post »jzs
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 2:58pmGhost, I appreciate your good natured post. I’ll try to reply in kind, but for now I really have to justify my existence in the privately owned, for profit company I work for.
Report Post »dstewart2
Posted on February 3, 2011 at 10:59pmOnly have one thing to say, un-contacted my butt, look close at the first pic. There’s a white metal bowl next to that rock, so if they have had no contact, where did it come from??
Report Post »My Sacred Honor
Posted on February 4, 2011 at 12:12amAnd no, the VA heathcare system so far for me has sucked. i tell a doc of a pre-existing healthcare condition and what the treatment was before, and he right out calls me stupid and denies me the simple prescription I already know worked the last umpteen times the condition occured. I finally looked this 30 year VA doctor veteran in the eyes and said “I want a new doctor”.
He said “That is fine mr. ____. I will get you the proper paperwork to fill out”. Never saw him again.
BTW, I saw your post, SISSY, and thank you so much for your kind words! I grew up in Luthersville, in Meriwether Co, 20 miles south of Newnan. I know where Dallas is and I’m sure I rode through at least on I-20 at one point or another! Post to me again sometime, I’d LOVE to chat with a Georgia native, especially one with a name like “SISSY”! lol!
Report Post »Conservative Screenwriter
Posted on February 4, 2011 at 12:27amTribes motto for the last 500 years: Hope and Change.
Report Post »technoid
Posted on February 4, 2011 at 7:26amDear SG APPLEBEE, I feel sorry for you as you would believe and trust what man says over GOD.
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