Romney Calls on Perry to ‘Repudiate’ Anti-Mormon Pastor
- Posted on October 11, 2011 at 5:30pm by
Tiffany Gabbay
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During the Q&A session following Chris Christie’s endorsement of Mitt Romney, the New Jersey governor and Republican presidential candidate responded to questions about a controversial statement about Mormonism made by rival Rick Perry supporter Dr. Robert Jeffress.
Jeffress, who is pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, called Mormonism a “cult.”
“I don’t believe that that kind of divisiveness based upon religion has a place in this country,” Romney added. “I would call upon Governor Perry to repudiate the sentiment and the remarks of that Pastor.”
Mediaite adds:
Romney slammed Rick Perry for saying Jeffress’s introduction that slighted Romney “hit it out of the park” and explained that the Constitution gave him the freedom to run for President regardless of faith.
“I believe in the spirit of the founders when they suggested in crafting this country that we would be a nation that tolerated other people, different faiths, that we’d be a place of religious diversity and respect they embodied in the constitution itself. In Article Six of the Constitution, saying a religious test would not be part of selecting a candidate. I believe in the spirit of that embodiment and in the nature of the nation that’s been crafted.”
“I think that any campaign that associates itself with that type of conduct is beneath the office of the President United States,” Christie added.
Perry spokesman Ray Sullivan, however, told NBC News that Romney’s call for Perry to disavow the controversial pastor is merely an attempt to “change the subject.”
Perry’s campaign then added fuel to the fire in a written statement challenging Romney to “repudiate government-mandated health care as crafted in Romneycare.”
“The governor has publicly disagreed with [Robert Jeffress's] characterization,” Sullivan said. “We have no control over who endorses, supports, or votes for the governor.”
With these developments, the stage has now been set for Tuesday night’s GOP debate, where the sparks will undoubtedly fly.
Watch Romney and Christie deliver their remarks:
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Comments (430)
legendarytwo
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:38pmMormonism, if Romney is nominated, may cost us the election. The media will tie Romney to a religion they will portray as whacky or as a cult. Nobody loves Beck more than me, but mormons have some beliefs they teach that will easily sound unacceptable to most Americans or Christians. Why they teach those things they can’t prove is beyond me, since those things have nothing to do with salvation but make mormons sound a little goofy when you talk religion with them.
Report Post »DogTags
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:55pmThe media are on board right now in this pluralistic repudiation of the truth, but if Romney gets the nomination you can bet the media will play up the “Can a Mormon really be elected President?” angle. Pastor Jeffress is correct that Mormonism is a cult. Romney and his Republican establishment apologists (Christie, Bennett, Crystal, etc) are afraid of the debate because Mormonism cannot stand up to the light of truth.
Report Post »rangerp
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:56pmI wish Beck would wake up, and get out of the Mormon church. From my understanding, Beck got saved, then went to the mormon church. If he would apply the same logic and history and deep thinking he does with most topics, he would see his way out of the mormon church.
Report Post »theonefromabove
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:29pmThat is why I can’t vote for Romney.
http://politicalbowl.com – Political Videos
Report Post »Dudley Do-Right
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:38pmAs of October 6, 2011, Independent voters favor Romney over Obama 54%-41%. Romney has the best chance of beating Obama in a general election. Of course things could change.
http://www.fox59.com/news/politics/wxin-mitt-romney-romney-holds-advantage-over-obama-among-independents-20111006,0,3000659.story
Report Post »Faith1029
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:39pmRANGERP: “I wish Beck would wake up, and get out of the Mormon church. From my understanding, Beck got saved, then went to the mormon church. If he would apply the same logic and history and deep thinking he does with most topics, he would see his way out of the mormon church.”
I agree with you. He is deceived. The best we can do is pray for him. That’s what I do.
Report Post »FranciscoDAnconia
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:49pmLEGENDARYTWO-
You are right. Mormons have weird beliefs. How about that one belief where people think that Jesus Christ atoned for mankind. That sounds rational doesn’t it? Most of the world does not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of god. So to them you are weird. Its very strange to me when religious people make fun of other religious people. You are all on the same whacky bus. You don’t have any empirical proof of your beliefs, they are simply just beliefs. Yet, you are first to judge other beliefs when they are different form your own.
When christians discredit mormons its kind of antithetical. Making fun of santa clause while clinging to the tooth fairy is kind of idiotic, don’t you think?
ps. Speaking in tongues is totally normal right?
Report Post »legendarytwo
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:05pmFRANSISCO–
Report Post »Didn‘t say mormon’s couldn’t be Christians. You were too quick to judge ! People have said to me “but Beck’s a mormon”. I said “whatever he is, he will be a few rows higher than me”.
joe1234
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:10pm“ps. Speaking in tongues is totally normal right?”
no surprise mormons can’t speak in tongues…thats a gift of the Holy Spirit…the the unholy spirit mormons follow.
joe1234
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:12pm” You don’t have any empirical proof of your beliefs, they are simply just beliefs”
oh yeah where are those gold tablets? how about that return of Jesus in 1891 that the false prophet smith said would take place?
President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh — even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).
This prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.
Report Post »Grey Eagle
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:37pmThat pastor did not make those remarks during introduction of Perry, it was later that a reporter asked him and he made those remarks. Perry is not responsible for remarks from someone who introduced him to speak. He did not chose the pastor, but the group hosting the event made the choice. He does NOT owe Romney an apology. He said he did not agree with the statement and that is all that needs to be said.
Report Post »DEJO
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 10:31pmIt just amazes me how many people on this sight have to consistently put Beck’s religion down. If you think that Beck has some incredible understanding about what is going on in the world around us and you agree with him on so many things, don’t you think he has put some major thought into his religion, as well? You can’t prove any religion anymore than you can prove the exixtence of God. It is fruitless. You have to exercise faith first, then aftewards you can see the proof for yourself, and only you, can see it for yourself. Beck always says about his opinions,”don’t take my word for it, find out for yourself.” Beck is not afraid to tackle anything and he has put himself out there for who he is and what he stands for, even if no one else agrees with him. Quit attacking his religion! You sound totally clueless about his faith and religious beliefs. Get off the bandwagon of these common parroted opinions and predjudices. Do something constructive instead, by standing with those who love God and want to save our beloved country.
mooskie
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 10:53pmLegendary… You need to read the Book of Mormon and find out why Beck and Romney believe what they believe. The evidence IS the Book of Mormon that was written 2,500 years ago (The same time as The Bible) When you go down to Mexico and see the remnants (i.e Temples, buildings, etc.) It was an entire civilization, and the Book of Mormon are journals (just like The Bible that believe in as well) that are of the people. When C. Columbus arrived, what did he see? Indians. That is what the Book is about. Anyone who is interested in knowing more about Christ, please visit http://www.mormon.org Beck is not only right with politics, but religion as well.
Report Post »byudabomb
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 10:53pmWhy teach things you cannot prove? What? Nobody can prove that Jesus is our Savior but we believe it anyway. It is called faith and testimony. Perhaps you shouldn’t be a Christian if you cannot prove that Jesus is the Savior of the World.
Report Post »usa91773
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:31pmI‘m not in the least worried about Romney’s religion, I’m worried about Obama sitting in a church with Jerimira Wright preaching for 20 years and his other socialist/Marxist connections.
Romney 2012. Christie is right !
Report Post »etoddt
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:33pmIt always amuses me to hear the back and forth between Evangelicals and Mormons, like there’s some profound difference between the two.
Both believe in.. the Bible – Christ – Being Saved – Heaven and Hell – Baptism – Scriptures – Miracles – The Holy Spirit – Paying Offerings – Attending church on Sundays… etc., etc…
What I don’t really get is how the whole “Love Thy Neighbor as thyself” bit fits into it all.
Either people here are selectively forgetting to be Christian (when it applies to the other party)… or they’re not really very Christian to begin with. In which case, it’s kind of funny to hear one “not-very-good Christian” rant on another person for not being the kind of Christian they aren’t even themselves.
Carry on! :)
Report Post »ashestoashes
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:12amCan a Mormon be President? Wow they probably will play that up….but at least it won’t be the Musliim Brotherhood placing a Muslim without a legitimant birthcertificate in the WH to establish a worldwide Islamic Caliphate. Gee…as I heard a liberal say on the Mike Huckabee show soon after the elections…and I must say he looked extremely high on something…”Isn’t that something…that just 7 yrs after 9/11…we have elected Barack Hussein Obama to the Presidency of the United States.” Yeah…that’s something alright. So really…a Mormon? Is that really that hard to believe? I mean..we’ve had Satan running the country.These people voted for an illegal alien..not to mention Acorn and all the schister voting that went on. At least this guy is a decent human being.
Report Post »Pete
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:13amJoe, When did you get excommunicated from the church?
Report Post »db321
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:38amWhat this on Romney
http://www.youtube.com/user/AnnBarnhardt?feature=mhum#p/u/9/KBXe3Kvg-qU
Report Post »Governmentforthepeople
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 2:03amFor those questioning whether Mormons are in fact Christian, see the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5×0wjT9Uq8
Why are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints referred to as “Mormons”? Also, what is one way you can learn the truth? See the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-35gtKuWrD4
For those wanting to know the real story of Joseph Smith, see the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xVw6PsSinI
As for Mormons (Latter-Day Saints), think about it, do you really think that men and women such as Glenn Beck, Mitt Romney, Jon Huntsman (Sr. and Jr.), Harry Reid, Steve Young, Gladys Knight, Orrin Hatch, Donny and Marie Osmond, etc. are crazy people who would buy into a so called “whacky cult”?
Look at the Churches leaders. The leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day-Saints consists of a former heart surgeon, a former 747 airline pilot, former lawyers, former reputable businessmen, former university presidents, a former nuclear engineer, a former supreme court judge, etc.
These men are men of God and are special witnesses of Jesus Christ. I see them often, I know how hard they work, I know that there is not one ounce of selfishness in them. If this is a “cult”, what benefit are they gaining from running this so called “cult”? Money? Nope. Honor of the world? Nope. I have seen how they live, I have seen their humility, they are apostles and prophets of the Lord Jesus Christ. See their testimon
Report Post »City-zen
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 2:14amSt Mark 9:38-41 Leave each other alone and live in the name of Jesus Christ.
Nobody can prove anything. Religion is entirely based in faith. Arguing your religion is like arguing the best kind of chocolate. Only what’s inside you can tell what is best.
Report Post »Blackjacx1
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 4:20amThe Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do teach some pretty “peculiar” things… Here’s a very condensed list (13 points in all). (As much as people would like to split hairs and point fingers)
Report Post »1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Blackjacx1
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 4:23am*I think that 11 is particulary interesting, since we do live in the USA, where it should be all Americans creed.
Report Post »9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Some things may seem strange or peculiar but if you stop and think about some of the things you accept about God, you think some strange stuff too, and no one should call you names.
HoHatch
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 7:18amLegendary Two: Have you ever spoken to any knowledgable Mormon about his or her beliefs? Perhaps you could cite what you feel is “whacky” or strange. If you are a Christian, then you should know that they believe as you do, in Christ, that he died for our sins and was resurrected after suffering on the cross. What more do you want?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 9:05am“1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”
your god the father was once a man…and your jesus is a created being….in christianity the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all eternally God almighty.
“3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”
unlike christianity, where you are saved by grace, mormonism is a religion of works…so how many works and what kind of works do you have to do for ‘exaltation’ and the bible has no degrees of salvation…no ‘exaltation’ you are saved or you or not…and there is no second chance after you die.
“8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.”
in other words you don’t believe the Bible , since many of your doctrines contradict the bible…thats the whole ‘translated correctly’ you mean translated through the lens of your ideology.
mormonism is not christianity.
Report Post »freedom10
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 9:31amAbsolutely, Romney equals another 4 years of Obama. Romney reminds me of “Gumby”. For you Romney and Christie fans in the NE, they have no chance down here in the South.
Report Post »ashestoashes
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:04am@DB321 After listening to Ann Barnhardt…that pretty much leaves us with no one…doesn’t it?
Report Post »StonyBurk
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:44amMitty Boy is grandstanding again– No matter how much the Deseret News –or the secular Press wish to make Pastor Jeffress into a paler shade of Rev.Wright — or a somewhat more normal reflection of the Westboro bunches despotic leader– He is not. Neither can the media make Rick Perry into a reflection of Barry Soetoro aka Barak Hussein Obama II . Pastor Jeffress has a s much right to express his opinion as anybody. And What the infidels and unbelievers choose to ignore is Pastor Jeffress made it clear he was giving his opinion. That others might disagree–that he had not spoken to Rick Perry about his opinions of Mitt Romney or the church invented by Joseph Smith in the mid 1800′s. Pastor Jeffress made clear that He was not close to Rick Perry –and a series of legal opinion 1878–1890 on polygamy, bigamy, Marriage, and a Christian nation –and what we were taught in Bible College — a Christian Bible College all suggest the church invented by Joseph Smith was indeed a near Christian cult. Noah Webster– and John Jay– to name two suggested it is the duty ,privelege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. And that radio guy Mr.Fischer was attacked by Romney at the Values Voter Summit Mr.Fischer made much more sense than any of the freaking Mere Politicians. And Herman Cain comes closer in my mind than any running now to fill that image of who ought be the Next President.
Report Post »jeff36607
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:45pmI think you are selling the American people short. I believe that the majority of Americans still believe that people should be able to worship God in the manner they choose or not worship God at all if they don’t want to. If Romney get the nomination, I agree that the media will give it their best shot by making up all kinds of stories about Romney and the mormon church, but I think people will see right through it. The media has lost their creditability for being objective in the last few years. Yes, there are some extremists who have similar views about anyone who believes differently from them such as muslims extremists (through terrorism), marxists (through purging after taking control) and Southern Baptists (through the KKK) who have a history of killing those who disagree with and will team up together to defeat Romney, but I don’t think they will be a majority. However it would be much more fun to see how these groups and the liberals would react to Herman Cain.
Report Post »FranciscoDAnconia
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:28pmJOE1234-
You don’t get it do you buddy.
“oh yeah where are those gold tablets? how about that return of Jesus in 1891 that the false prophet smith said would take place?”
This may be a little tough for you to grasp. I am not trying to prove my beliefs are true. That is antithetical. I can’t prove spiritual things, and neither can you (See 1st Corinthians chapter 2). Spiritual things are taught by the spirit only. In less you claim that you are in fact the holy ghost nothing you say carries much weight. That goes the same for me as well.
Let me see if I can say this in a more simple way. Again, trying to discredit the reality of Santa Clause only to try to prove the reality of the tooth fairy is ludicrous. By this point if you can’t grasp what I am saying than were on different wave lengths. Circular reasoning isn’t persuasive when it comes to speaking about religion. God is the ultimo judge of our own christianity. And anyone that tries to play that judge will receive that proportional judgement from god (Matthew 6). I am not trying to disprove other religions period. Because you logically can’t do it. The only things you can really defer to is the bible. WEll guess what? Everyone else has their own book too and since Jesus Christ is not physically present to prove his own reality you are stuck to your own personal testimony. If people want to seek truth they have to seek the spirit.
“which things we also speak not in the words which man’s wisdom
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:49pm“This may be a little tough for you to grasp. I am not trying to prove my beliefs are true. That is antithetical. I can’t prove spiritual things, and neither can you (See 1st Corinthians chapter 2). Spiritual things are taught by the spirit only. In less you claim that you are in fact the holy ghost nothing you say carries much weight. That goes the same for me as well.”
so in other words, you’ll bow down and grovel for a false prophet and make laughable idiotic excuses for his failed prophecies?? LOL
Smith gave a prophecy…it is demonstrably FALSE…so God did not speak to him, OBVIOUSLY.
I can see why an uneducated easily led loser like you would believe a false prophet, but how can anyone with an ounce of common sense?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:52pm“God is the ultimo judge of our own christianity. And anyone that tries to play that judge will receive that proportional judgement from god (Matthew 6)”
oh so christian churhes should just welcome whoever says they follow Jesus, like the muslims, with open arms huh?
you’re lying about scripture (again) that verse refers to judging a man‘s destiny which is God’s province…we get to judge who is a real christian or not…..
Galations 2:
4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
so you‘re saying Paul was sinning by calling people ’false brothers’??? LOL
you really need to take a course in logic 101…you’re not very good at this….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:55pmoh and Franny…I do apppreciate all your posts to me….it proves I’m on the right track and telling the truth….because it sure looks like the truth hurts!! LOL
by faith
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 4:36pmDo LDS/Mormons accept or claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Report Post »I think the answer is yes.
According to Once saved always saved, you do not need works…problem solved
by faith
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 4:45pmThose that don‘t believe in God as you define Him don’t count.
Report Post »They believe in the wrong God, or some perversion of God, right.
So it’s not the “the Bible” that determins faith, it‘s your personal interpritation of the Bible that determins everybody’s faith.
veritas (truth)
Darren
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 5:15pmLegendary;
if people don‘t vote for Romney because he’s a mormobn, then they don’t. I really do not care if if people vote for romney or not due to his religion. For those on the right who claim they will not vote for a Mormon, I simply say, “good luck with that”. I’ve no desire whatsoever to pursuade them to do otherwise. But don‘t think that Romney’s Mormonism will cost us he election. Romney would wipe the floor clean using Obama’s bumm-bumm in any debate. Regardless of who the GOP nimonee will be, the media will portray them as whacky. That’s how it is.
You don’t see the media showing Harry Reid as a crazy religious zealot, do you? It’s not the religion, it’s the politics.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 5:24pmRangerP;
“From my understanding, Beck got saved, then went to the mormon church. If he would apply the same logic and history and deep thinking he does with most topics, he would see his way out of the mormon church.
”
From Beck’s own words, he wanted to, umm, “get lucky” with his girlfriend but she purdently told him that that will not happen until they are married and that they will not marry unless they agree upon a church to attend. Beck’s best friend, Pat Gray told Beck that through all they’ve been through that Beck owed him at least a visit to his church. That was the first time Glenn Beck visited The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Glenn Beck has a special needs daughter and that daughter made a remark after their church visit which proved to be a vehicle by which Glenn felt moved upon by the Holy Spirit. He felt impressed tha tthe LDS Church, perhaps, would be a good church for him and his family.
Beck did apply his study ethic into The Church of Jesus Christ and the more he studied it, the more he was convinced that it was God’s true Church on earth. That the message he heard from them was true. Beck and his wife joined the LDS Church. I may be mistaen but i do not believe that his oldest daughter joined. Beck left that decision up to her.
To this day Glenn Beck credits the LDS Church for grounding him meaning to not allow his “devils” (booze) to control him.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:08pmJoe;
Despite why you think I constantly try to move people away from the Journal of Discourse as well as “History of the Church”, I and represent the LDS Church based on its doctrine, it is precisely because of the display which you just posted on 10/11/11 @9:12 pm. The vast majority of the time when folks attack the LDS Church using these mentioned sources, and others, they grossly misrepresent what the subject taught and present absolutely nothing as to wat the LDS Church actually believes. the LDS Church believes, and has always believed that no man knows the return of the Savior for His millenial reign. This was also absolutely tru with the Prophet Joseph Smith. Here’s the doctrine: http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130?lang=eng
” 14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.”
Although there is no absolute certainty as to when this event took place, the best indicators would be in 1832 (close to the 1835 year you said it ocurred). This can be found in verse 13, “while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.” This apparently after Josegh Smith received a highly accurate prophesy regarding the US Civil War. (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:19pm(con’t)
Now goto the same link and read the very next verses (16-17): “I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face. I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.” Here not only did Joseph Smith doubt what this revelation specifically referred to, he himself made specific note that he did not think this referred to Christ’s Second Coming. so, according to the doctrine of the LDS Church, Joseph Smith did not prophesy that Jesus Christ will return in 1891.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:29pm(con’t)
Another problem with sourcing writings like “History of the Church” is how godaweful bad you and the vast majority of others misuse those sources of information. You cited only one volume of those writings regarding Joseph Smith’s “prophecy” and that’s it. Most anti-Mormon cites who use “History of the Church” regarding this same “prophecy” also stop after citing one volume. Here‘s what you’ll find if you read Vulume 6; page 254: I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years; and if God ever spoke by my mouth, He will not come in that length of time. Brethren, when you go home, write this down, that it may be remembered.
Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come. Go and read the Scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers.”
It doesn’t sound like Joseph Smith taught that he even remotely knew when the Savior would return for the Millenium. The revelation is most likely referring to, as Smith noted” previous appearances of the Lord to Joseph Smith. That would mean prophecy fulfilled. Note also that the Lord Himself told Smith “trouble me no more” concerning his return.
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/return.htm
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:32pmETO;
“Both believe in.. the Bible – Christ – Being Saved – Heaven and Hell – Baptism – Scriptures – Miracles – The Holy Spirit – Paying Offerings – Attending church on Sundays… etc., etc…
What I don’t really get is how the whole “Love Thy Neighbor as thyself” bit fits into it all.”
You got a point.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:43pmJoe;
“your god the father was once a man…and your jesus is a created being….in christianity the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all eternally God almighty.”
The father being once a man is nowhere to be found in Mormon doctrine. Jesus was created by the Father as well as all of us spiritually. There is a good reason the Father is called the “Father” and the “Son” is called the “son”. Although for specific reason Jesus may absolutely be called the “Father”, in LDS faith and wrship, the Father is supreme and forever will be supreme. The Son is exalted before the Father and He is the only God by which one may come unto the Father. It is through the Son that all things were created by the Father. None of this is unChristian, nor unbiblical. It does go againstthe traditional interpretation ofthe Bible and no doubt against Christianity’s traditional creeds; but it is not unChristian.
“unlike christianity, where you are saved by grace, mormonism is a religion of works…”
Then so much for Catholics followingthe Christian God. In fact there was a very recent dialogue between a Catholic and a Baptist here on The blaze. The Baptist accused the catholic of being a work-based religion and the Catholic replied that the Catholic Church believes in grace+faith+works. That’s precisely the LDS view.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:49pm(con’t)
Go to the doctrine: “21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.” (Mosiah 2 – http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/2.21?lang=eng#20 ) There’s nothing we can do to in our works to merit any salvation from God. It’s by Gods grace by which we are saved. God will always do His part but we must do ours. Where we fall short, and we all do, we need to repent on the Atonment of Christ.
Use the doctrines, Joe. I think I’m done with you for today. You can flatter yourself all you want with your “truth hurts” but I’m not the only one here on The Blaze to have noted your infatile disorder. Nor is this notation exclusive from Mormons.
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:50pm@joe1234
Brother, you fail to understand that the doctrine of salvation through grace and works are the same doctrine, they are just two different perspectives.
“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” These are the words of the Savior spoken to his disciples, and one of them, not fully comprehending his meaning, asked him a question. Jesus answered and said unto him: “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.” (John 14:21-24; Matt. 7:21-23)
I’m sure we can all agree that throughout the Christian world there are various opinions regarding what is necessary to bring about the salvation of men. Some there are who have accepted very literally, but without comprehending the meaning of it, the expression that was uttered by Paul to the Ephesians: “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9.)
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:51pmCont..
Those who accept that view as literally as it is recorded, without any reference to the context, disregard or reject the epistle of James which, apparently to them teaches a very different doctrine, for James says this: “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (Jas. 2:18-20.)
And so the controversy has been going on since the days of the Reformation, if not before, in regard to these scriptures. Some men contending for the doctrine of James and some for the doctrine of Paul, both misunderstanding what Paul has written and what James has written, for in reality there is no conflict.
The world is full of good, honest people who believe that all that is necessary for one to do in order to be saved is to confess the name of Jesus Christ with their lips. A professed minister of the gospel once told me that if the entire Bible were lost with the exception of one passage, that one verse would be enough to save the world. It is as follows: “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Rom. 10:9.)
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:53pmCont..
Now, of course, this is a very extreme view. It would not be enough to save the world for the very good reason that the Lord has said unto us that we are to live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, (Matt. 4:4; Deut. 8:3.) and we are under the necessity of keeping his commandments.
I desire to point out wherein there is no conflict whatever in the teachings of these two apostles of old; that Paul taught the doctrine that was taught by James; and James was in full accord with the doctrine that was taught by Paul—the fact being that they were approaching the subject from different angles.
Paul was dealing with the class of people who believed that a man could not be saved unless he subscribed to the law of Moses, that a man was under the necessity more or less of saving himself, and who denied the full power of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
James on the other hand was defending the necessity of works, counteracting the idea which prevailed among others, who professed faith in Christ, that if they had faith it was all-sufficient. Therefore they approached this subject from different viewpoints, and each of them taught the truth.
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:54pmCont..
To shed more light on the matter I’m reminded of the story of the two knights who contended over the shield that was on the arm of the statue, one declaring that was made of gold and the other that it was of silver, and so they contended until they came to blows and each received a mortal wound. But as they fell to the earth and changed their positions the one that was on the right saw that the gold shield was silver, and the one that was on the left saw that the silver shield was gold.
This is just the situation as we have it in regard to the teachings of Paul and James. It is a doctrine of the Church that is fully upheld and sustained by the scriptures, and by the handdealings of God with the children of men from the beginning, that he does not do for us one thing that we can do for ourselves, but requires of us that we do everything for ourselves that is within our power for our salvation. I think that is logical and reasonable. On the other hand, the Lord has done everything for us, for our salvation, that we could not do for ourselves, and there were some things that we could not do for ourselves, and we had to have help from an infinite source….
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:54pmCont..
There is a difference between the Lord Jesus Christ and the rest of mankind. We have no life in ourselves, for no power has been given unto us, to lay down our lives and take them again. (John 5:19-27.) That is beyond our power, and so, being subject to death, and being sinners—for we are all transgressors of the law to some extent, no matter how good we have tried to be—we are therefore unable in and of ourselves to receive redemption from our sins by any act of our own.
This is the grace that Paul was teaching. Therefore, it is by the grace of Jesus Christ that we are saved. And had he not come into the world, and laid down his life that he might take it again, or as he said in another place, to give us life that we may have it ore abundantly (John 10:10-18.)—we would still be subject to death and be in our sins.
As it was pointed out by Isaiah and others of the prophets many hundreds of years before his birth, Christ took upon himself the transgressions of all men and suffered for them, that they might escape, on conditions of their repentance, and acceptance of his gospel, and their faithfulness to the end. (Isa. 53:1-12; 2 Ne. 9:17-27; 31:11-21.) So we are saved by grace and that not of ourselves. It is the gift of God. (2 Ne. 9:8; 10:24-25; 25:23; Moro. 10:32-33.)
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:55pmCont…
If Jesus Christ had not died for us, there would have come to us no salvation, and we would have remained absolutely in our sins, without redemption, and would have become subject to Satan and his emissaries forever and ever. (2 Nep. 9:6-9.) But through the mercies of God, Christ came into the world and his blood was shed for the redemption of men, so that all who will believe and will acknowledge him and take upon them his commandments, enduring to the end, shall receive eternal life.
So far as redemption from death is concerned, since we were not responsible for it, we will be redeemed from it. Therefore, though the blood of Christ, every man shall come forth from the dead in the resurrection, and the spirit and body shall be inseparably connected. Then man, if he has been righteous, shall receive a fullness of joy, and it unrighteous, he shall suffer, of course, for his transgressions, but every man has been given immortality, which means that he shall die again no more.
These are the doctrines that were taught by the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the burden of the message which we declare unto the world—Christ and him crucified for the redemption of men.
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:56pmCont…
So Paul taught these people—who thought that they could be saved by some power that was within them, or by observing the law of Moses—he pointed out to them that fact that if it were not for the mission of Jesus Christ, if it were not for this great atoning sacrifice, they could not be redeemed. And therefore it was by the grace of God that they are saved, not by any work on their part, for they were absolutely helpless. Paul was absolutely right.
And on the other hand, James taught just as the Lord taught, just as Paul had taught in other scriptures, that it is our duty, of necessity, to labor, to strive in diligence, and faith, keeping the commandments of the Lord, if we would obtain that inheritance which is promised to the faithful, and which shall be given unto them through their faithfulness to the end. (Rom 2:1-16; 6:1-5, 16-18, 23: 12:6-21; 13:9-12; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-26; 6:7-9; Eph. 6:10-18; Phil. 2:12; 4:8; 1 Thess. 5:16-22.) There is no conflict in the doctrines of these two men. There is no need for the world to be in conflict in regard to this question. It is merely due to the fact that they cannot or do not comprehend the mission of Jesus Christ. They do not understand what salvation means. They do not know upon what it is based….
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 6:58pmCont..
So it is easy to understand that we must accept the mission of Jesus Christ. We must believe that it is though his grace that we are saved, that he performed for us that labor which we were unable to perform for ourselves, and did for us those things which were essential to our salvation, which were beyond our power; and also that we are under the commandment and the necessity of performing the labors that are required of us as set forth in the commandments known as the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Unless a man will adhere to the doctrine and walk in faith, accepting the truth and observing the commandments as they have been given, it will be impossible for him to receive eternal life, no matter how much he may confess with his lips that Jesus is the Christ, or believe that his Father sent him into the world for the redemption of man. So James is right when he says the devils “believe and tremble,” but they do not repent. So it is necessary, not merely that we believe, but that we repent, and in faith perform good works until the end; and then shall we receive the reward of the faithful and a place in the celestial kingdom of God. (Era, vol. 27, pp.1145-1151.)
End…
Report Post »gmitch50
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 7:37pmMy prayer is that differences of religion do not prevent us from doing a good work. I believe preservation of the Constitution to be a good work. I pray for all of us in this comment chain would seek the Spirit’s counsel before posting anything further on this subject.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:55pmDarren…smith was a false prophet…thats not his only false prophecy…
“Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house… 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed.” (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.)
how can anyone follow a false prophet?? this NEVER HAPPENED. and never will.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:58pm“Jesus was created by the Father as well as all of us spiritually”
this is not supported by scripture…and proves yet again that mormons are not christian…..
isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
revelation 1:
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
JESUS IS THE FIRST AND LAST….not create…eternal…
until you give up these heresies, mormons will never be christian
done for the evening….have a good night…will comment more tomorrow….
Report Post »Blackjacx1
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:14amSo Moses was a false prophet too by your reasoning JOE1234? Exodus 3:17 clearly states that Moses prophesied to the elders of Israel that THEY would inherit the land of milk and honey(Canaan) when they followed him out of Egypt. When CLEARLY… THEY didn’t , after wandering in the desert until everyone that had left Egypt had died including Moses. Hardly seems a measuring stick of him as a prophet, since it never came true for Him, but He was still noted in Deuteronomy 34: 10 ¶ And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, 11 In all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, 12 And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.
The Fact still remains, that Joseph Smith taught faith in Christ was the only “way…truth…life”, despite what you may personally believe about Joseph Smith, and I’m sure that Romney believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings… and more importantly he believes you can disagree. But, there really is no need for name calling or slander/liable.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:05am“So Moses was a false prophet too by your reasoning JOE1234? Exodus 3:17 clearly states that Moses prophesied to the elders of Israel that THEY would inherit the land of milk and honey(Canaan) when they followed him out of Egypt. When CLEARLY… THEY didn’t”
LOL you really are reaching…so you think Moses was talking JUST to the elders when he said that…and not the children of Israel? do you think each had an individual guarantee that they wouldn’t die before they got there?? I mean seriously…..Smith’s prophecies are VERY specific…one was Jesus was going to return in 1891…FALSE…the next is that the temple would be built in MO, and smith would have a hand in it….FALSE.
why would anyone defend a false prophet? and if you think moses is a false prophet, then why have the bible as a holy book? (even though you twist it)
“The Fact still remains, that Joseph Smith taught faith in Christ was the only “way…truth…life”,
no he didn’t…obviously…else you wouldn‘t have a ’new revelation‘ and you wouldn’t have some mythical ‘exaltation’ that you have to do works for…yours is a religion of works.
continued…
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:08amhere’s what the mormons say about salvation…
A.”One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 92).
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
so in other words Jesus isn’t enough….you have to add your good works…
“and more importantly he believes you can disagree. But, there really is no need for name calling or slander/liable.”
you may want to look at the thread and admonish some of your mormon brothers about name calling…
you say I slander??? post your proof…you ‘sir’ are a liar…you cannot post any proof.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:26amJoe;
“29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
“31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mathew 24)
When did all of that happen?
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:39amJoe1234
do you really think your post make Jesus happy? I’m not talking about the accuracy or lack of with you content. I’m sincerely questioning your tone. By reading responses to your post, you seem to be rubbing many people the wrong way. Name calling and ridiculous accusations don’t seem very Christian. Do you really think that beating someone over the head with your bible is pleasing to God?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:57am“do you really think your post make Jesus happy? I’m not talking about the accuracy or lack of with you content. I’m sincerely questioning your tone. By reading responses to your post, you seem to be rubbing many people the wrong way. ”
I don’t know what He thinks about me from moment to moment….
as far as my tone….I don’t try to be insulting…but come one..Paul rubbed people the wrong way…its why he was killed…
what exactly have I said that you object to? I’ve been accused of slander, lying, etc..and when asked to post the proof…they never seem to…
I find it insulting that mormons try to be called christian…when it is SO obvious your doctrines are not christian.
“Name calling and ridiculous accusations don’t seem very Christian. Do you really think that beating someone over the head with your bible is pleasing to God?”
name calling? given all the names I have been called by mormons? including racist, a member of the KKK…a liar, a slanderer…I mean seriously.
have you noticed I usually don’t start threads…I respond to others…so apparently its OK to beat someone over the head with the book of mormon, but its not ok to respond….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:59am“When did all of that happen?”
darren, come on…we all know it hasn’t happened…do you think it won’t? and if you don’t then why have the bible for one of your holy books?
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:00am“you ‘sir’ are a liar”
Joe, I’ve both told you and asked you to stop the “liar” accusation. I did so referring to me. Obviously you do not seem to apply this to others.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:02amdarren:
“Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come. Go and read the Scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers.””
BINGO…thanks for admitting smith is a false teacher…because he gave a year…
in 1835, smith said the following:
and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189).
now the question is why would you want to continue to follow a false prophet?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:12am““you ‘sir’ are a liar”
Joe, I’ve both told you and asked you to stop the “liar” accusation. I did so referring to me. Obviously you do not seem to apply this to others.
”
darren…I was accused of slander/lying…so I asked the person to post their proof…and called them a liar…because they lied about me….so far that post has not posted any proof of my lies….
so their accusation was false..and mine was true.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:17amJoe
first off you are not Paul.
This is a news article about Mormons being called a cult on a website owned by a mormon.
Come on, you poke a bear and he attacks doesn’t make it the bears fault.
I don’t condone the negative responese targeted at you, but the article does put them on the defensive
They started it sound like an argument I get from my children. Why do you think it is a good idea to sink to their level? Does it make you a better person to stoop to that level?
Your posts are abrasive and accusitory, its a style and tone thing.
You posted that faith alone is what saves. Not works.
Report Post »Then walk the walk…they say they believe in Jesus. all the rest is works (actions and traditions)
joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:25amLux:
“. So it is necessary, not merely that we believe, but that we repent, and in faith perform good works until the end; and then shall we receive the reward of the faithful and a place in the celestial kingdom of God. (Era, vol. 27, pp.1145-1151.)”
the thief on the cross did no good works, was not baptized, nothing.
Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness…
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
works are for our reward….not our salvation…Jesus did the work…and finished the job…I can add nothing to it…
Perseverance is a good thing…but….
1 Corinthians 1:8
He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
on my own I would fail and fall away…..
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:29amJoe;
“darren, come on…we all know it hasn’t happened…do you think it won’t?”
Pay attention to verse 34 in continuation of that prophecy: ” 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”
Careful how you apply “false prophecy”.
“as far as my tone….I don’t try to be insulting…but come one..Paul rubbed people the wrong way…its why he was killed…”
It’s why Joseph Smith was killed as well.
“Smith’s prophecies are VERY specific…one was Jesus was going to return in 1891…FALSE…”; “BINGO…thanks for admitting smith is a false teacher…because he gave a year…”
Please read my posts from 10/12/11 from 6:08-6:29 where I showed clearly that he did NOT “give a year”. In fact Joseph Smith‘s revelation was did not have to do with Jesus’ millenial return.
“the next is that the temple would be built in MO, and smith would have a hand in it….FALSE”
Here’s the text: “3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri”
Did the Latter-Day saints *begin* to build a temple in Missouri? Yes, they did. This wa never completed because “true
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:31am“first off you are not Paul.”
I could be real sarcastic here, but I will refrain….
” Come on, you poke a bear and he attacks doesn’t make it the bears fault.
I don’t condone the negative responese targeted at you, but the article does put them on the defensive”
so in other words whatever a mormon does its ok…uh huh….like I said,I find their posts telling us how mormons are christians insulting.
they can ban me if they wanted to…I do appreciate Beck, and am a supporter of his…but I will stand for the historic christian faith…if that bothers you….oh well.
you said I make ‘ridiculous accusations’ what are those?
“You posted that faith alone is what saves. Not works.
Then walk the walk”
I can’t walk the walk…He did it for me.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:33amby faith….
you do realize that your own monikor denies mormonism, which declares works are necessary?
Christians believe salvation is by faith ( and grace) not mormons….
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:41am@ joe1234 regarding your post on October 13, 2011 at 9:08am
“here’s what the mormons say about salvation..” etc…
You must not have read my reply’s on October 12 starting at 6:50pm. If you had you would know exactly what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe regarding salvation. Remember brother the spirit of contention is not of God but of the devil. Instead of researching the church for the soul purpose of attacking it maybe you should research it with the sole purpose of finding out if it is true or not. I would recommend prayerfully reading the Book of Mormon until you can honestly say this book is of the devil or this book is of God. God bless.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:43am“34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”
Careful how you apply “false prophecy”.
”
oh this is too funny…now you accuse Jesus of false prophecy…have you read the entire chapter?? it clearly talks about the time of the end…and when it starts…(the tribulation) ..that generation shall not pass away until He returns….
“Please read my posts from 10/12/11 from 6:08-6:29 where I showed clearly that he did NOT “give a year”. In fact Joseph Smith‘s revelation was did not have to do with Jesus’ millenial return.”
he didn’t give a year…but he said the Lord will return in 56 years…and he said that in 1835…you’re not being rational here….
as far as the temple…..really pathetic…is that the best you can do??
. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall
smith said the house SHALL BE BUILT…and it wasn’t…in that generation…sigh…
smith also said the ‘civil war would be poured out on all nations’
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place
(Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3).
uh huh…I actually feel sorry for you darren….trying to defend the indefensible..sad.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:43amJoe
God gave us free will. but you seem to know better.
Snarky comments and a closed mind are your stock in trade
‘ridiculous accusations’ what are those?
here is one:
I can’t walk the walk…He did it for me.
really, you can’t practice what you preach, because Jesus did it for you?
Report Post »I will pray for you
Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:44am(con’t)
Christians” drove the Saints out of Misourri Governor Boggs even issued an execution order where citizens may shoot Mormons on sight. So temple construction *did* “begin”.
“5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.”
‘An house of the lord’ was built in Kirtland, Ohio. According to one account there was a cloud that rested upon it. “George A. Smith arose and began to prophesy, when a noise was heard like the sound of a rushing mighty wind, which filled the Temple, and all the congregation simultaneously arose, being moved upon by an invisible power; many began to speak in tongues and prophesy; others saw glorious visions; and I beheld the Temple was filled with angels, which fact I declared to the congregation. The people of the neighborhood came running together (hearing an unusual sound within, and seeing a bright light like a pillar of fire resting upon the Temple), and were astonished at what was taking place. (History of the Church, 2:428) ” Considering the source, I’ve no idea as to how acurate that statement is. But, if accurate, it does play into fulfilling Smith’s prophecy.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:50am@lux…
I’m sorry but your posts are very long…and I just scanned over them…..I may have missed something….
” Remember brother the spirit of contention is not of God but of the devil. ”
neither are false prophets.
“Instead of researching the church for the soul purpose of attacking”
why do you call telling the truth about mormonism vis a vis christianity attacking?…if mormons just said they’re mormons…not christians…I wouldn’t care a whit….but when you call yourselves christians…the only true christians…and accuse the rest of the true church of apostasy…then I shall stand and contend for the faith of my fathers.
why do mormons accuse christianity of apostasy?
and who is attacking whom? do I call myself a mormon? no.
” it maybe you should research it with the sole purpose of finding out if it is true or not. ”
if it was true, (and a part of the historic christian faith) it would agree with the bible…but it does not.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:51am“‘ridiculous accusations’ what are those?
here is one:
I can’t walk the walk…He did it for me.
really, you can’t practice what you preach, because Jesus did it for you?
I will pray for you
”
I try to….but when I think of walking the walk…I think of Jesus…He walked the walk…and I don’t think I can measure up….that you do speaks volumes….pride goeth before the fall…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:53amThe blaze isn’t updating post again… So I’ll make a minor correction to my previous post from you must not have read my previous post to, you must not have understood my previous post. Christ himself lays it out perfectly clear that it takes both faith and works. All of the prophets teach that same doctrine. Remember brother both Paul and James where right in what they taught. They both taught the doctrine of Christ, they were just teaching from different perspectives. Re-read those post and look up the scriptural references provided. And if you still have trouble with it let me know and I’ll try my best to clarify.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:57amyou do realize that your own monikor denies mormonism, which declares works are necessary?
Christians believe salvation is by faith ( and grace) not mormons
Joe
My monikor, just because you read it that way does not make it so
By Faith as in I will walk by faith and not by sight
and you are saved by the grace of God (period)
God can save whoever He wants. Those with faith and those without, those with good works and those without.
I do not presume that I can demand anything of God
I have faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I try to do good works and follow His example and I HOPE for salvation. The rest I leave to God.
when I die and stand before God I will NOT say you have to let me in heaven, I have faith, you said so in the bible…but good luck with that if you choose to do so.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:03am“My monikor, just because you read it that way does not make it so
By Faith as in I will walk by faith and not by sight”
ok so you do need works to be saved….or (exalted)
its one of the reasons mormons are not christians…
its analogous to me telling muslims that I’m the a true muslim…and they’ve got it wrong…its just not reality.
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:05amI must be going but I’ll be happy to discus how the Book of Mormon and Bible go hand in hand, that they do not contradict one another but back each other up.
Feel free to email me any questions.
Report Post »lux4veritas@hotmail.com
joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:10am“Christ himself lays it out perfectly clear that it takes both faith and works. All of the prophets teach that same doctrine. ”
not at all…what works did the thief on the cross do? what did abraham do? he believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness…
Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
its another reason mormons are not christian.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:18amJOE
I can’t walk the walk…He did it for me.
really, you can’t practice what you preach, because Jesus did it for you?
I will pray for you
”
I try to….but when I think of walking the walk…I think of Jesus…He walked the walk…and I don’t think I can measure up….that you do speaks volumes….pride goeth before the fall…
you take a shot at me about pride? Because I believe if we say it with our lips we should show it with our actions. Somehow this makes me equate myself with Jesus on the cross. How does a rational person get from here to there?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:22am“you take a shot at me about pride? Because I believe if we say it with our lips we should show it with our actions. Somehow this makes me equate myself with Jesus on the cross. How does a rational person get from here to there?”
yes because thats what a works salvation is all about…pride…
just like this desire to be gods…the original sin..Satan wanted to be like the Most High.
so when you brag about ‘walking the walk’ as I’ve noticed many mormons doing…its pride….if I could ‘walk the walk’ I wouldn’t need Jesus.
and you don‘t just say ’show it with our actions’ you believe your works are necessary for salvation…what you are saying is what Jesus did isn’t good enough…you have to add your good works to it…
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:31amJoe, you close minded simpleton.
I am not Mormon and never claimed to be. I am Catholic, and proud of it!
So you can now begin your hatefilled rant on how terrible the Catholic church is.
I leave you with this:
Report Post »“And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.” (Matt. 10:5-15; see also Luke 10:1-12)
Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:39am“Which city shall be built”
There’s also the question of this being a prophecy or a commandment. If the latter, than obviously its fulfillment is based upon one’s obedience to it. If the former, prophecies often can be based upon people’s obedience to it. In fact, no less than a few times, the Lord reprimanded Joseph Smith for not obeying His commands and the Saints themsleves were placed udr the Lord’s curse for not obeying. The saints in Missouri were not obedient to the instructions ofthe Lord and were driven out of the state. This would change the fulfilment of God’s command/prophecy based upon the conditions at hand. “4 Yet hear the word of the Lord, O Zedekiah king of Judah; Thus saith the Lord of thee, Thou shalt not die by the sword: 5 But thou shalt die in peace: and with the burnings of thy fathers, the former kings which were before thee, so shall they burn odours for thee; and they will lament thee, saying, Ah lord! for I have pronounced the word, saith the Lord.” (Jer. 34). That was prophecy.
(con’t)
Report Post »bchurch66
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:42amIf you love Beck so much –and understand his critical thinking, don’t you think just maybe he is on to something? You can‘t believe all you read by these renegade pastor’s who will stop at nothing to keeping their revenue stream alive and well. If you look at Pastor Jeffress website it is full of Mormon-bashing nonsense. If he believes so strongly in his ministry –it seems to me that he should focus on preaching the “truth.” The fact is, the Baptist membership is steadily declining and he is afraid for his pocketbook. The true Church of Jesus Christ was/is a lay ministry. One final point… I think we can all agree that Jesus Christ set the perfect example of how we are to live our lives and how he would want the true church to be set up/organized. Is there a church out there who has a prophet and Twelve Apostles called and ordained by the laying on of hands –as Jesus did with his Apostles?
Report Post »lminer
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:43amWow, reading all these comments is very interesting. To the person that said; Until christians can prove Jesus is the son of God….Christians don’t have to prove anything, Jesus proved who he was. You can accept him and trust him, or you can deny him. It’s your choice, but you’ll have no one to blame but yourself if you end up in Hell.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:49amJoe (con’t);
But Zedekiah was not a righteous man before God and this is what happened: ” 9 Then they took the king, and carried him up unto the king of Babylon to Riblah in the land of Hamath; where he gave judgment upon him. 10 And the king of Babylon slew the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes: he slew also all the princes of Judah in Riblah. 11 Then he put out the eyes of Zedekiah; and the king of Babylon bound him in chains, and carried him to Babylon, and put him in prison till the day of his death.” (Jer. 52)
Granted, Zedekiah did not die by the sword, but did he die “in peace”? What fthe funeral to be provided for him like that of his fathers? Is this then “false prophecy” by Jeremiah or did conditions change? And it’s it the Lord who sets the conditons for prophecy to be fulfilled?
I think that when people look to “prophecy” and their fulfillment to decide who’s a “true” prophet then it is ony a style of sign seeking. It’s the Holy Spirit that confirms Gods truth.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 12:01pm“Joe, you close minded simpleton.
I am not Mormon and never claimed to be. I am Catholic, and proud of it!
So you can now begin your hatefilled rant on how terrible the Catholic church is.”
thanks for walking the walk!! LOL looks like you can’t either…and if you are a catholic then you should agree with your church which considers mormons polytheistic and blasphemous.
and you are the one talking about my ‘tone’ LOL perhaps you should take the log out of your own eye first…
the only hatefilled rants I see between us is from you…
fess up, you’re a mormon….if you were a catholic you woud agree with me.
oh you may want to seek professional help for some anger management….
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 12:21pm““and more importantly he believes you can disagree. But, there really is no need for name calling or slander/liable.”
you may want to look at the thread and admonish some of your mormon brothers about name calling…
you say I slander??? post your proof…you ‘sir’ are a liar…you cannot post any proof.”
Besides myself, what Mormons called names? And if it’s name calling, . And nobody is saying you cannot respond but out of the several LDS posters here and on other posts regarding LDS postions, could you demonstrate how you or others have been “beat over the head” by the Book of Mormon and you’re simply responding toe beating? Cuz I can sure show you accusations against Mormons and how they’re beat over the head.
And what you’ve shown is your interpretation of the Bible and words from LDS leaders which have no bearing upn LDS worship as they are not LDS doctrine. You therefore cannt use them to show what Mormons believe. This metihod is used by Evangelicals against Catholics and I despise these methods used against Catholics as well.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 12:40pmJoe;
“oh this is too funny…now you accuse Jesus of false prophecy…”
This is almost pointless. No, I did not accuse Jesus of false prophecy. You’re standard applied to Joseph Smth would accuse Jesus of false prophecy. Yes, Jesus was talking about a fututre generation. Joseph Smith spoke of the temple “to begin” in Missouri. That happened. Just because it is not finished does not mean it is a fals prophecy. Likewise, just because the prophecy said “this generation” does not mean, as you pointed out, the actual generation that existed which the revelation was given to. But to apply your standards whic hyou give to Joseph Smith, your standards would condemn not only Jesus but other prophets ob the Bible.
“he didn’t give a year…but he said the Lord will return in 56 years…” No, he did not. I pointed out that Joseph smith was not talking at all about Jesus’ millenial return.
“SHALL BE BUILT”
Prophecy or commandment?
“smith also said the ‘civil war would be poured out on all nations’” That it will *begin* in south Carolina. World War I and II apply. So do all future wars. “2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place” Exactly what Smith said and what I said.
Keep your pity to yourself. Just try and learn if that’s what you desire.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 12:42pmJoe
You assume I am angry. once again you are wrong. I did not call you a name, I simply pointed out a fact. I am not angry with you, I feel pity for you. Being angry with you would assume you matter enough for me to form that strong of an opinion.
You are close minded. And because you only read the part of the response you want too and ignore the rest; it makes you a simpleton.
Trying to have a rational discussion with you is like trying to teach a monkey to type. Have you heard the old saying you don’t wrestle with a pig, because you both get dirty and the pig likes it.
(”duh, I think he just called me a monkey and a pig, duh) No it;s an analogy…look it up.
As far as me agreeing with you. I don’t think I need your opinion to form my beliefs.
Now if I ever need expert advise on how to live in my parents basement or how not to have a girlfriend, or how to live my life as though I know better than everyone else, then I’ll call you.
Jesus loves you and I will continue to pray for you.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 2:10pm“You assume I am angry. once again you are wrong. I did not call you a name,…..it makes you a simpleton.
”
oh yeah right. laughable.
“You are close minded”
actually you and your mormon friends are close-minded….refusing to acknowledge the clear differences between christianity and mormonism.
I‘ve noticed that those who accuse others of being ’hate-filled’ are themselves hate-filled…a clear case of projection.
“(”duh, I think he just called me a monkey and a pig, duh) No it;s an analogy…look it up.”
oh of course…we‘ll I’ll call you an ignorant wacko a liar and a nut-job. how’s that? at least I’m honsest…you holier than thou hypocrite.
“Now if I ever need expert advise on how to live in my parents basement or how not to have a girlfriend, or how to live my life as though I know better than everyone else, then I’ll call you.”
oh wow how original…did you think of that while you were trolling the park restrooms?
the truth is I’ve made you look stupid, and you’re all upset poor baby!!! and you know what? it was like taking candy from a baby….because you’re not nearly as clever as you think you are. you lying simpleton….tell me are you as fat as you are stupid?
oh and don’t waste your time praying for me…your false gods don’t exist.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 2:45pmThis would change the fulfilment of God’s command/prophecy based upon the conditions at hand.”
sigh…I can understand why you don’t care about false prophecies…the bible is just a prop to the mormons to give some justification for their religion…just like the JWs….without the bible, your religion would not have anything to go on. So I can understand why false prophets wouldn’t bother you…the bible isn’t really important to mormons, other than to use as a justification for their cult.
“This would change the fulfilment of God’s command/prophecy based upon the conditions at hand.”
yeah more name calling…so good of you to ‘walk the walk’ there darren!! but then you mormons seem to resort to name-calling quite a bit when called upon your false prophet…kmichael…jeff(something) francis(something), by faith…and you…oh yeah you mormons are working SO hard for the kingdom!!! LOL
“And what you’ve shown is your interpretation of the Bible and words from LDS leaders which have no bearing upn LDS worship as they are not LDS doctrine. You therefore cannt use them to show what Mormons believe.”
oh so LDS leaders don’t speak for the church…just YOU huh? this is realy pathetic…so no matter how crazy or racist or false…doesn’t matter…you’ll get to be a GOD someday…if only you do what the mormons say…then you can have POWER over all your little minions you father with your multiple sexy spirit wives…who will be your slave
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 2:53pmoops it didn’t copy….
“but I’m not the only one here on The Blaze to have noted your infatile disorder. Nor is this notation exclusive from Mormons.”
yeah more name calling…so good of you to ‘walk the walk’ there darren!! but then you mormons seem to resort to name-calling quite a bit when called upon your false prophet…kmichael…jeff(something) francis(something), by faith…and you…oh yeah you mormons are working SO hard for the kingdom!!! LOL
oh wow I had some golden tablets appear in my backyard….they say give me all your money….i’m a prophet!!!! and someday I’ll be a god!!! right.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 2:59pmWow Joe I was getting worried about you. What took you so long to respond, was it your turn to speak at the Occupy Wall Street Rally?
Seriously you need help. Your connection with reality is tenuous.
Just so you know, while I was at Mass for my lunch hour, when the priest held high the Body, Blood, Soul and Devinity of our Lord Jesus Christ; I prayed for you.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 3:31pmLook at this website Joe. Look how many people you have a running argument with, that makes you the Least Common Denominator (that’s a math term) Your approach to bring others closer to God is not working. In case you forgot, that is where we started.
I will repost this, because you obvioulsy didn’t read ith the first time. But I want you to think about it, and everytime you hear the words BY FAITH you will think of me and:
WE ARE SAVED BY THE GRACE OF GOD (period)
God can save whoever He wants.
Those with faith and those without, those with good works and those without.
I do not presume that I can demand anything of God
I have faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I try to do good works and follow His example and I HOPE for salvation. The rest I leave to God.
when I die and stand before God I will NOT say you have to let me in heaven, I have faith, you said so in the bible…but good luck with that if you choose to do so.
now make sure you respond so you can get the last word
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:00pmJoe;
You have purported misinformation here and you continued to do so after I showed how Joseph Smith did not prophecy at all the Second Comnig of Jesus. This would make you a liar though I am not calling you one. kmichael should definitely watch his tongue though was his name calling based upon your behavior or theology? And, no, I do not find you a racist at all. I personally never had. Your marriage may explain why you’re sensitive to racism but frankly your accusations against the Mormons on racial relations have been over exaggerated and not based on anything substantial. Truth be told, racism and Mormonism has always concerned me as well though I’ve never seen it as a means to declare the LDS Church, nor its leaders, as false.
Another thing you do is denounce Mormonism as Christian for the same reasons you would Catholicism. Yet when I first brought up Catholicism as a faith which believes in works you called me a liar, they your brothers, and I who “obviously” do not consider them my brothers. You’ve not repeated this which I appreciate but this does reflect on your mannerisms in dialoguing religion. You adamant which in and of itself is good but unfortunately you‘re adamant even when you’re completely wrong. Don’t accuse the Mormons of pride for believing in works unless you do the same for Catholics. And don’t accuse Mormons of pride when you show a lot yourself. (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:06pmReturning quickly to “false prophecy”. The Bible has its fair share of prophecies where its fulfillment is based upon conditions, namely by people’s choice. Jonah said Nineveh would be destroyed “in forty days” but it was not destroyed. Jonah’s prophecy was unconditional and yet after the people repented, the Lord spared the city. Despite the fact that the Lord did not tell Jonah that “unless they repent…”, the Lord did change the outcome of the prophecy. Also, I just came across this as cited by D. C. Pyle. This is in regards to the destruction of Tyre. I invite you to read it and to share where you think his analysis is incorrect:
“Of course, my favorite part of the prophecy against Tyre is the part found in Ezekiel 26:14 and 27:36, where the Lord states that Tyre would “not be rebuilt” and “exist no more forever”
Of course, after it was left unconquered by the Babylonian armies, it eventually fell to the Greeks under Alexander and was destroyed by his armies.
But then, the city which was never to be rebuilt forever rose again to wealth and power in 125 BCE! During the Roman period, the city rose to even more prominence and had a Christian community living in the mainland portion. Muslims reduced the city to ashes in 1291. It was rebuilt again sometime after this. In 1983, it had an estimated population of 23,000. (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:11pm(con’t)
“The prophecy stated that the place would “be a bare rockface for spreading nets and would never be rebuilt” but today, the place has become a fairly important maritime center.”
I would like to remind you, Joe, that I am not accusing any biblical prophet of false prophecy. I’m only questioning as how to apply the “test” of deciding which prophet is true and which are false.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:27pmBy Faith;
“I am not Mormon and never claimed to be. I am Catholic, and proud of it!”
Despite Joe calling you a liar and that you’re really Mormon, I believe you. Catholics are great people and there is much to admire about them. So, that all said, I have two questions: 1) Do you believe in the Holy Trinity and 2) What does your gravatar display?
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:41pmDarren
Despite Joe calling you a liar and that you’re really Mormon, I believe you. Catholics are great people and there is much to admire about them. So, that all said, I have two questions: 1) Do you believe in the Holy Trinity and 2) What does your gravatar display?
#2 I have no idea what gravatar is
#1 Yes I believe in the Holy Trinity
The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:47pmDarren, the teachings on a Triune God goes way back:
The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).
Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).
Justin Martyr
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).
Theophilus of Antioch
Report Post »“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom”
NewDaddy2011
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:51pmTwo statements:
1) An individual’s religious beliefs should have no bearing in the political arena. Judge a politician by their policies and politics (a strange idea, I know).
2) Having read and prayed about the Book of Mormon, applying the promise it contains that, ” if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.” (Moroni 10:4) I can testify that it is true. Take that or leave it as you will. I know what I know and invite anyone who is interested to read the book and find out for themselves.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 5:25pmIf by gravatar you mean the little picture, it’s the 3 National Championship rings for LSU Football
I just showed my age didn’t I
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 6:11pm“You have purported misinformation here and you continued to do so after I showed how Joseph Smith did not prophecy at all the Second Comnig of Jesus. This would make you a liar though I am not calling you one. kmichael should definitely watch his tongue though was his name calling based upon your behavior or theology?”
BS. I posted smith’s own words…they’re easy to read….your volume of misinformation, and misdirection in order to justify your false prophets lies are laughable. The excuses you make don’t hold water…but is fun seeing you flop around to defend the indefensible.
and of course I FORCED kmichaels and the rest of the rabid mormons into foul language..and callign me names…right. you mormons are holier-than-thou hypocrites.
“God can save whoever He wants.
Those with faith and those without, those with good works and those without.
I do not presume that I can demand anything of God ”
really? why don’t you show me an example in the bible of someone saved without faith?
“I try to do good works and follow His example and I HOPE for salvation. ”
so it doesn’t sound like you really have faith then does it now?
“Your approach to bring others closer to God is not working. In case you forgot, that is where we started.”
and your approach is SO filled with grace and love, I thought Jesus himself was speaking…right…you really are a legend in your own mind…you haven’t taken the log out of your eye I see….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 6:13pm“other thing you do is denounce Mormonism as Christian for the same reasons you would Catholicism. Yet when I first brought up Catholicism as a faith which believes in works you called me a liar, they your brothers, and I who “obviously” do not consider them my brothers.”
uh yes because you are a liar…if you haven’t noticed your newfound catholic brother said:
WE ARE SAVED BY THE GRACE OF GOD (period)
so why don‘t you and your newfound catholic ’brother’ argue it out..I’ll get the popcorn.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 6:29pmMy Faith;
“If by gravatar you mean the little picture, it’s the 3 National Championship rings for LSU Football”
LOL. Yes it is that picture. I was thinking it was either related to football or the papacy. I was hoing for the latter.
Thank you for the history of the Trinity. I do enjoy learning aobout it and I do deeply respect thoce who believe in it.
On thing’s for sure, I don‘t think Joe1234’s accusation that you’re a Mormon pretending to be Catholic and thus being a liar hold much water. I think this validates your posts regarding his “temper”.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 6:46pmJoe;
1) Well, My Faith is Catholic yet you called him a liar for calling himself Catholic and you impuned how he practices his faith. “fess up, you’re a mormon….if you were a catholic you woud agree with me.” You also denounced his God. Good job, Joe. This validates my notation that you suffer from infantile disorder. Yes, I called you that based upon observing you first hand and based upon direct dialoguing with you. You live a double standard in that you can accuse others of being liars, me a servant of Satan, and question the Mormon’s Chrisitanity when they call you a name. Just like I called you a name. I think though that for now on I’ll refer to you as “Robobrat”. I think that’s catchy. You seem to have a robotic response when Mormonism is brought up and you are bratty regarding your behavior.
2) Think what you want regarding my reply to you over Joseph Smith and his “prophecying” that Jesus would return during the 19th century. I showed you in the Doctrine and Covenants which is LDS doctrine and a first-hand account of this event as well as “History ofthe Church” that he did NOT believe Jesus told him that He will return some 150 years ago. Another reason I dislike HoC is that so many of the articles gathered cannot be authenticated. Much in that book was not written by the person in question nor can the origins f the articles be valitated.
I’m through with you today.
God bless
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 7:21pm“Wow Joe I was getting worried about you. What took you so long to respond, was it your turn to speak at the Occupy Wall Street Rally? ”
no I was working..you know you need someone to actually pay for your welfare check, since you’re too lazy to get off your fat ass.
“Thank you for the history of the Trinity. I do enjoy learning aobout it and I do deeply respect thoce who believe in it. ”
this is laughable….you sure didn‘t ’deeply respect’ me when I told you I believed in the trinity…you vociferously attacked me and my beliefs…you are such pathetic hypocrite. wow.
“I think this validates your posts regarding his “temper”
oh yes darren that foul-mouthed fool by faith is SUCH an exemplar of the christian faith..I‘m sure he’s up for sainthood any day now!!
“1) Well, My Faith is Catholic yet you called him a liar for calling himself Catholic and you impuned how he practices his faith. ”
yes because I find it more than a bit odd that a supposed christian would side with a mormon…don’t you? especially when the catholic church denounces mormons are polytheistic and heretical…but then I found out he’s a foul-mouthed loser….so I’m not surprised he took the side of the mormons..
“. You live a double standard in that you can accuse others of being liars, me a servant of Satan, and question the Mormon’s Chrisitanity when they call you a name.”
no the people I accuse of being liars are liars…and you haven’t been able t
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 7:41pmoh and darren I find your great respect towards ‘my faith’ rather interesting…since you never showed me the same respect…and you argued vociferously with me regarding salvation by grace (no works) and the trinity…but yet you are strangely silent with ‘my faith’
and of course ‘my faith’ is a good christian, who attacks another christian, yet says nothing against the mormon faith even though the catholic church says:
While the Catholic Church would reject nothing that is true or good in Mormonism or any other world religion, Catholic theology would have to note that there is a tremendous amount in Mormonism that is neither true nor good. Further, because Mormonism presents itself as a form of Christianity yet is incompatible with the historic Christian faith, sound pastoral practice would need to warn the Christian faithful: Mormon theology is blasphemous, polytheistic, and cannot be considered on par with the theology of other Christian groups.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/what-does-the-catholic-church-say-about-the-practices-and-beliefs-of-mormonism
and the mormons think of catholics (and protestants) as…
continued….
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 3:52am@Joe1234
Before we continue may I ask what your definition of faith is? I think this could be the cause of most of our misunderstandings. To members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints faith is an action word. The Apostle Paul taught that “faith is the substance [assurance] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). Alma made a similar statement: “If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true” (Alma 32:21). Faith is a principle of action and power. Whenever we work toward a worthy goal, we exercise faith. We show our hope for something that we cannot yet see. I.e. when you go to work are you not exercising your faith that you will receive a paycheck?
As Paul nears the end of his instructions to the Hebrew saints, his words take on new force and elegance. The intensity with which he writes betrays his passionate desire to motivate the saints to overcome the persecutions and temptations of the world. In the last few chapters of Hebrews he reaches the powerful climax toward which he has moved his readers through the epistle. Here he is ready to give them the key by which they can overcome the world and gain their exaltation.
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 3:55amCont…
So important is the message, that Paul develops it with great care and excellent clarity. He wants all to be able to understand so that none will miss the point. Why such pains? Why such a desire to reach all who will listen? Because he is revealing the key by which men have become prophets, people have received revelations, great miracles have been performed, Zion was established and translated, and saints throughout the ages have sealed their exaltation. It is the power by which mankind can overcome the world—its temptations, its persecutions, and its degenerative powers.
Paul knew the trying conditions under which the early saints were struggling. He also knew and had prophesied of the conditions under which we would struggle in the latter days ( 1 Timothy 4:1–4 ). Therefore, the key he gave the Hebrews in his letter is also your key. It is as relevant to you as to the ancient saints, and each of us must learn how to use it in order to escape from the wickedness of our day. I’d strongly recommend you read the last few chapters of Hebrews, ask yourself what the key is, and search for ways in which you can use it in your own life. Keep in mind that Paul knew whereof he spoke, for he wrote from experience. He had used the key—many times—to unlock the treasures of eternity. So, too, can you if you will but utilize it in your life. ( Please read Hebrews 11-13. I would like to have your insight on those chapters. Thanks. )
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 4:21am@Joe1234
“faith is nothing more than trust…how much do you trust Jesus?”
I should have first checked to see if there were any newer posts before I posted. Joe this is a really good place to start; now that we know our beliefs regarding faith are slightly different it should be easier to avoid misunderstandings in the future. I understand where you are coming from in regards to your definition of faith I think we will now be able to have a more meaningful discussion. I still would like to discuss Hebrews 11-13 with you and hopefully clarify what our beliefs regarding faith are. After all faith is the first principle of the gospel and by understanding each other’s views on this important principle we can avoid further headaches in the future.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 9:28am“I still would like to discuss Hebrews 11-13 with you and hopefully clarify what our beliefs regarding faith are. After all faith is the first principle of the gospel and by understanding each other’s views on this important principle we can avoid further headaches in the future.”
Faith is very important…but of course its Whom you have faith in…my contention is the God of the universe is Trinitarian in nature..with Jesus as an uncreated eternal being…the first and the last…
the mormon image of God is 3 separate beings…with Jesus as a created being.
one of us is wrong….and our god is a myth. so faith is useless if the object of our fatih does not exist.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:01amSometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:34amjoe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 9:28am
“Faith is very important…but of course its Whom you have faith in… faith is useless if the object of our fatih does not exist.”
I agree with you there Joe, God is the only supreme governor and independent being in whom all fullness and perfection dwell; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift and every principle dwell; and that he is the Father of lights; in him the principle of faith dwells independently, and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings center for life and salvation. Remember though that “faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things”; faith is to “hope for things which are not seen, that “are true.” (Alma 32:21).
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:36amCont…
Now the word hope is sometimes misunderstood. In our everyday language, the word often has a hint of uncertainty. For example, we may say that we hope for a change in the weather or a visit from a friend. In the language of the gospel, however, the word hope is sure, unwavering, and active. Prophets speak of having a “firm hope” (Alma 34:41) and a “lively hope” (1 Peter 1:3). The prophet Moroni taught, “Whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God” (Ether 12:4).
When we have hope, we trust God’s promises. We have a quiet assurance that if we do “the works of righteousness,“ we ”shall receive [our] reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come” (D&C 59:23). Mormon taught that such hope comes only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ: “What is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise” (Moroni 7:41)
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:37amCont…
Now back to faith. I believe we are both agreed that in order for faith to lead to salvation, it must be centered in the Lord Jesus Christ (see Acts 4:10–12; Mosiah 3:17; Moroni 7:24–26; Articles of Faith 1:4). We can exercise faith in Christ when we have an assurance that He exists, a correct idea of His character, and a knowledge that we are striving to live according to His will.
Having faith in Jesus Christ means relying completely on Him—trusting in His infinite power, intelligence, and love. It includes believing His teachings. It means believing that even though we do not understand all things, He does. Because He has experienced all our pains, afflictions, and infirmities, He knows how to help us rise above our daily difficulties (see Alma 7:11–12; D&C 122:8). He has “overcome the world” (John 16:33) and prepared the way for us to receive eternal life. He is always ready to help us as we remember His plea: “Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not” (D&C 6:36).
This is where we tend to disagree that faith is much more than passive belief. We express our faith through action—by the way we live.
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:38amCont…
The Savior promised, “If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me” (Moroni 7:33). Faith in Jesus Christ can motivate us to follow His perfect example (see John 14:12). Our faith can lead us to do good works, obey the commandments, and repent of our sins (see James 2:18; 1 Nephi 3:7; Alma 34:17). Our faith can help us overcome temptation. Alma counseled his son Helaman, “Teach them to withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Alma 37:33).
The Lord will work mighty miracles in our life according to our faith (see 2 Nephi 26:13). Faith in Jesus Christ helps us receive spiritual and physical healing through His Atonement (see 3 Nephi 9:13–14). When times of trial come, faith can give us strength to press forward and face our hardships with courage. Even when the future seems uncertain, our faith in the Savior can give us peace (see Romans 5:1; Helaman 5:47).
Faith is a gift from God, but we must nurture our faith to keep it strong. Faith is like a muscle. If exercised, it grows strong. If left immobile, it becomes weak.
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:40amCont…
We can strengthen our faith by keeping the commandments. Like all blessings from God, faith is obtained and increased through individual obedience and righteous action. If we desire to enrich our faith to the highest possible degree, we must keep the covenants we have made.
We can also develop faith by studying the scriptures and the words of latter-day prophets. The prophet Alma taught that the word of God helps strengthen faith. Comparing the word to a seed, he said that the “desire to believe” can lead us to “give place” for the word to be “planted in [our] heart[s].” Then we will feel that the word is good, for it will begin to enlarge our souls and enlighten our understanding.
This will strengthen our faith. As we continually nurture the word in our hearts, “with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.” (See Alma 32:26–43.)
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:44amCont…
You can plainly see that the the testimony of the Book of Mormon confirms the testimony of the Bible that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God and the Savior of the world. Far from competing with the Bible, the Book of Mormon supports it, exhorts us to read it, and testifies of the truthfulness of its message. We use the Book of Mormon and the Bible to support one another. The Book of Mormon speaks of the ancient covenants God made with His children; the Bible tells of great prophets who also received these covenants by faith. The Book of Mormon testifies of Christ and His Atonement; the Bible provides the account of His birth, ministry, death, Atonement, and Resurrection. Thus, the Bible and Book of Mormon complement and enrich each other.
I started this post will all intentions of discussing Hebrews 11-13, but the Spirit nudged me in another direction. I’ll continue with Hebrews 11-13 when I get back. Till then have a great day.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 11:07am“Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. ”
hmmm darren makes that accusation against catholics all the time…I find your reaction to me rather troubling since by Darren’s own admission I call catholics brothers…and have defended the church.
I’m sure darren will be along to attack you mercilessly as he did when you defended the trinity….
“You can plainly see that the the testimony of the Book of Mormon confirms the testimony of the Bible that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God and the Savior of the world. Far from competing with the Bible, the Book of Mormon supports it, exhorts us to read it, and testifies of the truthfulness of its message. ”
no it does not, sorry. to mormons Jesus is a created being..the ‘spirit brother of lucifer’ and his sacrifice isn’t enough..you have to add your own works for your ‘exaltation’ another concept which does not exist in the bible.
The Jesus of the Bible was not created, is eternal, and is a person in the oneness of the trinity..One God…three persons…
you need to focus.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 11:34amOriginal Post Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:39am
Joe1234
do you really think your post make Jesus happy? I’m not talking about the accuracy or lack of with you content. I’m sincerely questioning your tone. By reading responses to your post, you seem to be rubbing many people the wrong way. Name calling and ridiculous accusations don’t seem very Christian. Do you really think that beating someone over the head with your bible is pleasing to God?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 11:55am“do you really think your post make Jesus happy? I’m not talking about the accuracy or lack of with you content. I’m sincerely questioning your tone”
remember this….you holier-than-thou hypocritcal SOB.
”
You are close minded. And because you only read the part of the response you want too and ignore the rest; it makes you a simpleton.
Trying to have a rational discussion with you is like trying to teach a monkey to type. Have you heard the old saying you don’t wrestle with a pig, because you both get dirty and the pig likes it.
(”duh, I think he just called me a monkey and a pig, duh) No it;s an analogy…look it up.
As far as me agreeing with you. I don’t think I need your opinion to form my beliefs.
Now if I ever need expert advise on how to live in my parents basement or how not to have a girlfriend, or how to live my life as though I know better than everyone else, then I’ll call you.
Report Post »”
do you think that makes Jesus happy? hmmmmmm?????
joe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 11:59am“Name calling and ridiculous accusations don’t seem very Christian”
oh and simpleton…I usually only call people names after they call me names…
and what ridiculous accusations did I make? put up or shut up…or do the christian thing and apologize.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 12:20pmand what ridiculous accusations did I make? put up or shut up…or do the christian thing and apologize.
How about you calling me a Fat, unemployed, Mormon? (does my typing make me look fat?)
everytime you post, you prove my original point.
simpleton: A person who is felt to be deficient in judgment, good sense, or intelligence; a fool.
I defiantly stand by that. You are immature in you thought processes. Easy to anger and nothing is ever your responsibility. Calm down or you will not make it out of your 20’s. Again I hold no anger toward you, I pity you. I wish for you to grow into a well-rounded adult.
Go in the peace of Christ
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 2:35pm“How about you calling me a Fat, unemployed, Mormon? (does my typing make me look fat?)”
looks like the truth hurts jackass. oh but you’re not a mormon…just a quisling.
you’re just upset because I make you look so stupid so easily….grow up sonny boy…what a wimp.
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 3:01pmJoe1324
you are too funny. Your choice of words (which I can’t seem to find in the bible)
and then I find this, on this website:
joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 8:29pm
ETO…
Do you really intend to single-handedly fight everyone who disagrees with you in this forum?
Why are you doing it? Seriously – introspectively – Why?
Do you think this is what God wants you to do? If so, then God to you seems similar to Allah (Muslim God) who demands vengeance and retaliation instead of love and compassion
Hello Put, Meet Kettle
Report Post »by faith
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 3:40pmJoe 5678 (spin – kick – 234)
before you post back using some more of your “big boy” words (ow whos so cute, you so cute)
You have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting
you like quotes, this ones for you:
I no want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction, Your mother was a hampster and your father smelt of eldiberries, Now go away before I taunt you somemore.
School is over, ring the bell,you can go now, go on crawl back under your bridge,
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 6:21pmJoe;
“I have faith in them….so its BY FAITH that I give them money…”
And if you don’t you’d suffer the consequences. They would suffer as well. If you don’t give them money despite having faith in them, then do you expect the same blessings? Are you saying that you do as much for God as your faith dictates? You have absolute faith in God yet your works fall short. If you cut off your works, simply because you do not want to do everything God wants you to do, to God do you expect the same blessings from God? We all fall short of serving God as we should. This is where repentance comes into play and by God’s grace, we are forgiven. But what if we refuse to repent? You can have all the faith you want, but by his works, not belief, was Abraham known as a friend of God.
““Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the Lord denounces…”
That’s what Pratt said. It has no bearing upon the LDS faith, nor worship. You will not find either in LDS doctrine, nor in its worship. I’m still waiting for you to ask as to how a declaration becomes official doctrine. Ill be glad to tell you if you ask. Especially if you ask nicely.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 6:24pm(con’t)
Regarding Catholic Answers (NOT official part of the Catholic Church)
“Mormonism itself is a belief system that would reduce the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit from being the three Persons of the one, true, and infinite God to being three limited, finite deities among an uncounted multitude of deities, all of whom merely reshaped small parts of a preexisting cosmos.”
Mormons are not ex-nihilists. We don’t believe there was absolutely nothing and then there was something. Many Orthodox Jews are the same. We believe that God the Father “created” all things, out of existing matter. Again, many Orthodox Jews believe no different. So denouncing Mormonism on this point is also denouncing many within Judaism. Good job, Catholic answers.
It is my experience that when a religious group isolates an attack against another, that it is the attacker which ultimately makes to look a fool.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 6:36pm(con’t)
The idea that God created tall things out of nothing did not come fused into Christian theology until after the Apostolic Era. The Bible absolutely permits the existence of pre-existing matter “in the beginning”. I do admit, however that the bible in and of itself is not “provable” as to this existence.
“Mormonism teaches that human beings may, by practicing the tenets of its faith, become gods and goddesses themselves, with their own planets full of people worshiping them.”
Do note that it is by the grace of God that we are saved and that man cannot do enough himself to receive God’s grace. Grace is never merited and thus man is only blessed with it out of mercy. That is the LDS doctrinal position and Catholics believe no different.
Like ex nihilo, it is by modern-day revelation by which the LDS believe that man may become gods. Folks at Catholic answers, as well as Catholic leaders themselves, are fully aware of early Christian Fathers who believed in deification which is similar to “theosis”. St. Augustine (no lightweight in the Catholic Church) taught this as late as the 5th century AD if I recall correctly.
So what does the Bible say regarding being/becoming “gods”?
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 6:39pm(con’t)
In defending Himself against the charge of blasphemy Jesus told the Jews, “ 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;” (John 10). In another passage we read, “ “16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 18). In the Lord’s prayer He said, “21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17).
From these passages it teaches that a) we are gods, b) we [can be] “joint-heirs” with Christ and that c) we can be one in Christ “as” Christ is one in the Father. If anything these passages point to something beyond mere salvation.
Report Post »(con’t)
Darren
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 6:43pm(con’t)
Report Post »Let me close with the concept of deification with this: “It is evident, then, that he hath called men gods, that are deified of his grace, not born of his substance (ex gratia sua deificatos, non de substantia sua natos). For he doth justify, who is just through His own self, and not of another; and he doth deify, who is God through himself, not by the partaking of another. But he that justifies himself deifies, in that by justifying he makes sons of God. “For he hath given them power to become the sons of God” (John 1:12). If we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods; but this is the effect of Grace adopting, not of nature generating. For the only Son of God, God and one God with the Father, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, was in the beginning the Word with God, the Word God. The rest that are made gods, are made by his own grace, are not born of his substance, that they should be the same as he, but that by favour they should come to him, and be fellow-heirs with Christ. . . . We are therefore in hope, not yet in substance. “But we know,” he says, “that when he shall have appeared, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (I John 3:2). The only Son is like him by birth, we like by seeing. For we are not like in such sort as he, who is the same as he is by whom he was begotten: for we are like, not equal: He, because equal, is therefore like.”
St. Augustine
(con’t)
Darren
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 6:46pmJoe;
I really get frustrated with how this website handles posts. I’ll repeat my posts and hopefully place them al in order starting on the the current last page (page 4)
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 15, 2011 at 4:40amJoe I wanted to thank you for these “discussions”, you’ve helped strengthen my faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I’ll be walking away with a stronger resolve to live the gospel, to be more faithful, to be better person, to be absolutely loyal to Christ, and absolutely loyal to His Church as member.
You see Joe; this is God’s holy work. It is divine in its origin and in its doctrine. Jesus Christ stands as its head. He is our immortal Savior and Redeemer. His revelation is the source of our doctrine, our faith, our teaching, in fact the underlying pattern of our lives. Joseph Smith was an instrument in the hands of the Almighty in bringing to pass this Restoration. And that basic element of revelation is with the Church today as it was in Joseph’s day.
As members of Christ church our individual testimonies of these truths are the basis of our faith. We must nurture them. We must cultivate them. We can never forsake them. We can never lay them aside. Without them we have nothing. With them we have everything.
This has been an experience that has strengthened my faith in Gods eternal and unchanging truths. I’m sorry that you were unable to see the truth in my words. I know I felt the Holy Spirit as I read, pondered, and prayed to know how to respond to your post. I’ve done all that I can to explain the truth as I know it as simply as possible. I’ll be praying for you brother, I leave this testimony with you in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, am
Report Post »selenesteets
Posted on October 16, 2011 at 1:01pmI will tell you right now why you love Glenn Beck. Because Glenn Beck operates from the Truth. There is only one Truth, only one Spirit to guide us. If Glenn Beck was not guided by the Spirit, you would not love him. If we respect the man enough to see that he speaks the Truth, that he lives in it, then we must also respect him enough to trust that he is likewise guided in all aspects of his life.
Report Post »eric55
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:27pmRomney = Obama stay far away from him hes a wolf in sheeps clothing yuk he makes me want to vomit
Report Post »ashestoashes
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 10:27pmWrong Eric. Romney is not a Muslim and he probably has a “real” birth certificate. I don’t believe that Romney has a Communist/Isalamic/ Hezbola Drug cartel agenda. He lowered taxes for his own state and he does stand for Godly principles. and he is the only one of the candidates who wants to save Social Security and Medicare so if you do happen to make it to old age and your millionaire status has been reduced to $50 , you won’t be turned out into the street. So even though we don’t have a “blow your socks of candidate” he beats what we do have.,,actually anybody up there.
Report Post »mooskie
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:25pmEric… You need to do your homework.
Report Post »zorro
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 9:23amRomney is no good for this country. He’s no conservative. I could care less about this religion…I know Mormon people and they’re good, God fearing people. Romney may call himself a Mormon like Pelosi calls herself a Catholic, but he acts like no Mormon I know. He’s pro-abortion, until it’s inconvinient for him. He’s pro-gay agenda until it’s inconvinient for him. He’s a tool and Republicans are idiots if they make him the nominee.
I prefer four more years of Obama than a Romney Presidency. That’s right…I just wrote that. I will instead support Tea Party candidates in Congress either with a vote or financially.
Report Post »aconcernedwoman
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:27pmBeginning to sound more like the Lefties. Perry does not have to apologize for the pastor and the pastor does not have to apogize for his statement. Freedom of speech is being able to express your opinion whether others agree or not. And if people would do some research on Mormanism they would find out it is most definitely a cult. (Mormonism’s Temple of Doom by William Schnoebelen or dvd Except the Lord Build the House).
Report Post »slr4528
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:32pmPerry is well known for his scorched earth politics and Perry is nothing but complete and utter slime. Jeffries along with Fischer helped organize Perry’s big prayer rally before he announced his run for office. Perry and his campaign orchestrated the whole Mormon controversy at the Values Summit. Perry reminds me of Boss Hogg on the Dukes of Hazard.
It is insulting to candidates like Newt Gingrich who are behind Perry in the polls.
Report Post »etoddt
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:41pmYeah, but a decent person would distance themself from something they don’t believe. So either Perry isn’t decent… or in fact does believe (even though he says he doesn’t) what the pastor was saying. That’s important to know… don’t you think?
And BTW… do you really believe there isn‘t something in your own faith that couldn’t be dug up that makes you (and everyone who believes in what you do) look like a loon? I promise you, there is.
So, unless you really want this kind of strategy to be used against people of all faiths… I’d be a little less zealous in pointing it out in others.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 8:29pmETO…
Do you really intend to single-handedly fight everyone who disagrees with you in this forum?
Why are you doing it? Seriously – introspectively – Why?
Do you think this is what God wants you to do? If so, then God to you seems similar to Allah (Muslim God) who demands vengeance and retaliation instead of love and compassion
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:25pmIt was a stupid statement on the pastor’s part…But you know what? Grow a skin Romney, it is going to get much worse. I want a President who will rise above the crap.
Report Post »rangerp
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:34pmIt was not a stupid statement on the part of the pastor. It is what the man believes. How can Perry repudiate what another man says or believe.
I may not use the word “cult”, but a Baptist preacher who believes the Bible to be the word of God, and that it stands alone, would have reason to say such about Joseph Smith’s Mormon Church, and his Book or Mormon. We believe there will be no more revelation. We believe the Book of Mormon to be false. We believe Joey Smith was wrong when he claimed some connection between the lost tribe of Israel and the Native Americans. We believe Jesus to be God in the flesh, we believe salvation by “Grace” and not works.
The first amendment allows for Mormons to believe as they like, but that would not stop a Christian from stating truth in relation to Mormonism.
American needs to stop with all the demanded apology crap. Forced apologies are not real anyway.
Report Post »dtcomposer
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:21pmDoes it all come down to simple semantics in the end? I mean yes there are the uninformed who think that Mormons do all kinds of wacky things, but in the end the differences really come down to a few points.
Either Revelation continued after Jesus and the apostles or it did not. Mormons think it did, most mainline Christians believe that it is gone, that God said all he needed to say in the Bible.
They use the scripture in revelation to say that nothing should be added. Either this scripture was talking about the revelation given to John (I.E. revelation the book) which was compiled into the known bible many years later, or it was referring to the whole of the as yet unconstituted bible.
Off of these positions comes modern revelations about the nature of God (does he have a body, nature of the godhead etc) Most of these positions can be logically interpreted either was in the Bible, and I would dare say that the Mormon position is actually MUCH more logical than the mainline Christian one, though I will admit that neither position can be 100% supported by an honest look at what is in the bible.
Both believe that the only way to salvation is a belief in Christ. That is the main tenet of Christianity. Mormons simply believe that in addition to this belief, there are certain works that must be done to be eligible. Mormons are Christians no matter what other Christians want to believe. They don’t need other churches to agree with them, or to accept it, but it is a
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:17pmIt was stupid because it was not relevant to anything. It was a political debate, not a theological one. Like Cain and Bachmann my answer to it would be the same; it does not matter what I think of Mormonism, that debate is a diversion to the real issue. Could I accept a Mormon as president? Just as easily as i could accept a Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, or Jew.
Report Post »hidden_lion
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:38pmRanger
Report Post »What about the christians before the bible was compiled? I guess they were just a cult because without the bible you can’t be christian…Christianity existed before the bible. The Emperor Constantine had the Council of Nicea formed to help separate the heresy from the core beliefs. There would be no bible if that council had not decided what would go in it. But, there would still be christians. The problems started when the roman catholics started to change things, then the protestants broke away from them, spreading into the more hateful groups like the baptists, giving christians a bad name all around the world.
trolltrainer
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:50pmBaptists hateful? Really? What are you smoking?
By the way, there was never a time when the Bible was not used. There was a time when the separate books were not canonized but the last book was completed before 100 and the books in the canon that we have today were utilized by most churches after that date.
Report Post »Lambo
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:25pm@rangerp
doesn’t the bible say that we need more than just Grace…or faith??
James 2:14-17
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or a sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Faith without works is dead…. pretty clear cut here
Report Post »etoddt
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:53pm@ RANGERP
Yeah… I guess you’re right. Someone can rant and rave and call people names – it‘s certainly they’re right to do so. But unless people intend to make enemies instead of a difference, they might want to tone down the surly way things get said… especially to people who supposedly agree with and support the same kinds of social and political goals they have.
And don’t forget the damage liberals have done to their own cause by being hateful to the point of stupid… Let’s do what Glenn says and show people who we really are by NOT acting the way everyone expects us to.
Report Post »ArmyGirl
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 2:38am@Ranger
Why does anyone suppose that God has no more to say or no more to reveal?
Since you say and others say that there shall not be any more revelation:
First off, Where does it say that??
Secondly this very thing has been prophesied of and has warned us that people of this modern day will say these things:
2 Nephi 29:6
“Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have
got a bible, and we need no more bible…”
2 Nephi 29:9
…”and because I have spoken one word ye need
not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my
work is not yet finished…
2 Nephi 29: “Wherefore, because that ye have a
bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words;
neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
This was written by Nephi a prophet between the years 559 BC and 545 BC. (why should his words be excluded from scripture)
These people “speak out of the dust” Isaiah 29:4
Isaiah chapter 29 prophecies of this.
You can believe what you want of course but read Isaiah 29:4,11,12,14. it validates the book of mormon.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:25am“Both believe that the only way to salvation is a belief in Christ. That is the main tenet of Christianity. Mormons simply believe that in addition to this belief, there are certain works that must be done to be eligible.”
so in other words mormons believe that what Jesus did is not good enough.
pride is the original sin.
Report Post »Blackjacx1
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 5:07pmJoe1234, Jesus Christ is/was/will be good enough forever! But, now that he has paid the price for our sins, and redeemed us from physical death; by his grace, and after his resurrection he commands his apostles to (Matthew 28):19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” and they did as recorded in Acts 8:12-20, after baptism the apostles gave the gift from Christ promised to those that follow him and”…laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost(The baptism of fire).”
Report Post »By grace we are saved from mortality, by grace we can be saved from hell if we choose Jesus over the world. “1 john 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” to love him we keep His commandments.
It’s not a matter of Christs worthiness/ableness, but of our willingness to love Him.
Darren
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 7:10pmTroll;
“Could I accept a Mormon as president? Just as easily as i could accept a Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, or Jew.”
I think you just hit the jist of this debate. For those who will not vote for Romney because he is a Mormon, then fine, don’t vote for him. Good luck with that. But the fact of the matter is that Romney’s Mormonism has absolutely no hindrence on his performance as President of the United States. There is nothing in Mormonism to feel threatened from. If anything, Mormoniism porclaims the Americas as God’s chosen land to be free and prosporous conditioned that its peoples serve Him. I find that a blessed teaching, not a threat or curse.
btw, I referenced your recent conversation with a Catholic. This would be from the gay pastor of the Presbertyrian church. LOL, sorry if I misrepresented it; but I don’t think I did. I did find your conversation overall respectful and I appreciated that from the both of you. The reference can be found in the first subthread by Legendarytwo on this page.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:50pm“Joe1234, Jesus Christ is/was/will be good enough forever!”
obviously not, otherwise you wouldn’t have to add your works for some sort of non-existant salvation….you are either saved or not…there is no second chance you contradict scripture in this, as in so many other things…
Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
no second chance…no general salvation….heaven or hell…thats it.
Report Post »Blackjacx1
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 3:23amAll men will die once before returning to God for Judgment, Jesus also died once, the perfect sacrifice of blood, to fulfill the law, “28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Adding works? I simply point out what Jesus Christ, told his apostles to teach after His resurrection; FAITH in Him->REPENT of sins and commit to love and keep Him and his commandments(work)-> BAPTISM of the Father, Son, and Holy ghost(work)-> and Receive His gift; the Holy ghost or baptism of fire by the laying on of hands by His apostles as in Acts 8:12-20(work)… HE taught that, for salvation from hell. I know that you have heard James 2: 17-22 that faith without works is dead, “…and by works was faith made perfect?”… and the final verses conclude,” 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” …” 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
So we should agree, that we can disagree as Americans. You can keep your faith, and I’ll keep mine, and honestly if we seek “… whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” Philippians 4:8 We will find Christ when we “look for him” on that wonderfu
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 8:33pmETO…
Do you really intend to single-handedly fight everyone who disagrees with you in this forum?
Why are you doing it? Seriously – introspectively – Why?
Do you think this is what God wants you to do? If so, then God to you seems similar to Allah (Muslim God) who demands vengeance and retaliation instead of love and compassion
Report Post »Notsureishoulddothis
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:20pmWhat is wrong with these two??!! These are the front-runners?! Do they not read the headlines? Do they not know what is going on in the world – what they are going to have to deal with as president:?! Arrrrrggghhhhh…. where is Glenn Beck – I need him to do a screaming rant. I can’t take it anymore …
Report Post »Faith1029
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:42pmExactly. By berating each other they are weakening the party and if they keep it up, none of them will win. It’s getting bad out there.
Report Post »cknapp
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:12pmLet me see…PBO gets on a stage following Hoffnuts “take them sumb!tches out” remark, and instead of rebuking him for the rhetoric (which PBO has said he would like to see reduced) and the crowd for their vehement cheering, and then simply walking off the stage….then I guess it is OK for a pastor to call another religion a “cult”. I for one do not believe one guy calling something makes it so.
To me a “cult” takes all your possessions, brain washes you, isolates you from your family and friends, then cuts you up and feeds you to the hogs…as such I would not call Mormonism a “cult”, but the pastor is entitled to his opinion.
Craig Knapp
Report Post »Age 50
Posting anonymously is for wimps
craig d@t knapp1 @t y@h@@ d@t c@m
Chuck Stein
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:39pmDude, posting anonymously is not for wimps, it is for the wise.
Report Post »garyM
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:10pmRomney is a twin to John McCain…both are RINOS!
Report Post »FranciscoDAnconia
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:59pmMoses spoke to a burning bush and thats totally normal right? yet Joseph Smith claims he talked to god and he must be crazy. To an outsider you both might appear schizophrenic. To an atheist you both would be on the same team. Jesus Christ suffering for everyones sins is a normal mentality to have. Nothing strange about it nope not at all. And if you disagree with me, you are going to HELL.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:23pm“yet Joseph Smith claims he talked to god and he must be crazy’
yeah since he is a false prophet.
Report Post »etoddt
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:00am@ JOE1234
Which is to say… the Mormon prophet must be false because your pastor convinced you that what your religions says about him must be true… right?
Report Post »mattmad3
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:16am@Joe1234
Why do you feel the need to be a serial commenter on each and every one of these articles that mentions Mormons or anything about us? You obviously are entitled to your own opinion, but spreading these ridiculous lies about our religion does nobody any good; any real Christian believes (and I know because I am one) that Bible Bashing and arguing doctrine will not get you anywhere, you cannot force your beliefs on others, only kindly tell them what you believe and let them pray, ponder and search for the answers themselves. This is the approach that we as members of the LDS faith take and the same approach that all other Christians should follow as well. Our Constitution teaches religious tolerance, the Bible teaches love and you sir should take some cues from these two great works if (as you have made so clear) you are not willing to entertain the mere possibility that God is not a liar. For surely he would keep the promise made in Amos 3:7:
“Surely the Lord god will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets”
Is it not a direct contradiction of “Christian” doctrine to believe that God would arbitrarily cease the practice of giving revelation to his servants for the purpose of advancing His plan? But you already contradict a myriad of true Christian beliefs with your hate rants and misinformed lies. I do not merely believe in Christ, I know that he is my Savior and I also know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 9:26am“the Mormon prophet must be false because your pastor convinced you that what your religions says about him must be true”
no because smith made false prophecies…like this one…
President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh — even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).
This prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.
how can anyone follow a false prophet like this?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:19am:You obviously are entitled to your own opinion, but spreading these ridiculous lies about our religion :
what lies have I spread?
post your proof.
“This is the approach that we as members of the LDS faith take and the same approach that all other Christians should follow as well”
really, when I”ve been called all sorts of names by mormons? for example..
“kmichaels
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:23pm
Joe1234 does come across as an overly regimented prck at times, does he not?
”
I’ve also been called a racist, a member of the KKK, told I’m going to hell..by good mormons….I think the racist part is laughable, given that I’m married to a black woman.
“But you already contradict a myriad of true Christian beliefs with your hate rants and misinformed lies.”
why are you lying about me? as far as hateful rants you should check some of your mormon ‘brothers’
and how am I misinformed?
you make a lot of misinformed accusations that are lies.
“I do not merely believe in Christ, I know that he is my Savior and I also know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.”
but your ‘christ’ is a created being..the Christ of the Bible is not…Joseph smith is a proven false prophet…as the other post in this thread makes clear…
Report Post »etoddt
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:34am@JOE1234
Yeah, you’ve been using that example numerous times in this thread… in fact, it seems to be the only one you’ve got available.
I also seem to remember someone rebutting your conclusion by pointing out that the entire “prophecy” doesn’t, in fact, suggest anything like what you’re saying it does.
REST OF THE QUOTE – “I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face. I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.”
This seems pretty open ended to me and not a damning peice of evidence one way or the other.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 7:24pmETO…really?
hmmm…I‘ve seen the full context of smith’s false prophecy…and I didn’t notice that statment in there…
http://carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/jesus-return-within-56-years
isn’t that interesting?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:35pmoh ETO..you said:
“But you already contradict a myriad of true Christian beliefs with your hate rants and misinformed lies.”
I‘m still waiting for an example of those ’misinformed lies’ or an apology…but then you’re obviously not christian enough to apologize…and I doubt you’re man enough.
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 6:38am“hmmm…I‘ve seen the full context of smith’s false prophecy…and I didn’t notice that statment in there… http://carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/jesus-return-within-56-years”
Really that’s your source?? That explains a lot. You read two pages from an Anti-Mormon website and you consider that to be the full context? Interesting… Joe let me ask you this, why drink downstream where the water is dark, dirty, and polluted when you could go upstream to the source where the water is clear, clean, and pure? In other words if you want to know the truth about something isn’t it logical to go to the source? Don’t believe everything you read brother, research it from all angles then pray to the one true source of all knowledge, God the father, in the name of Christ. Remember that “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering…” ( James 1:5-6 ) God loves you and will answer your prayers.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 9:54am“Really that’s your source?? That explains a lot. You read two pages from an Anti-Mormon website and you consider that to be the full context? Interesting… Joe let me ask you this, why drink downstream where the water is dark, dirty, and polluted when you could go upstream to the source where the water is clear, clean, and pure?
so you’re accusing them of misrepresenting ie lying about mormon srcripture…ok post your proof.
Joel gave me the LDS site that has smith’s prophecy about the civil war…and its exactly the same as carm’s.
I usually don’t pray about things that are just common sense….
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 7:55pmJoe1234, from one of your past posts I noticed you correctly interpreted the generation that Jesus was refering to when he said “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled” Matt 24
But from reading Matthew 24 you could have just as easily said it was the generation to which he was speaking.
Then you badly misinterpret the prophesy of Joseph Smith
http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/87?lang=eng
Which included the states divided and calling on Great Britain, Great Britain calling on other nations, war poured out on all nations, famine, plague, earthquakes, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations. D&C 87 and 130:12
States divided – fulfilled
calling on Great Britain – fulfilled in the civil war
Great Britain calling on other nations – fulfilled in both world wars
famine, plague – spanish flu for one but more to come
thunder, lightning – I think yet to come
full end of all nations – yet to come
Why such a selective application of standards? Have you read Isaiah and Revelation? They jump all over the place in terms of time frame making it impossible to sequence things and cause and affect.
Joseph Smith made Matthew 24 much more understandable and proved you correct on the generation thing. Will you find fault with that also?
Report Post »JS Matthew
34 Verily, I say unto you, this generation, IN WHICH THESE THINGS SHALL BE SHOWN FORTH, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled.
joel228
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 8:02pmRead it all – it adds much clarity to the Matt 24. Like you said it takes scripture to understand scripture. I would say a prophet to understand a prophet.
http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-m/1?lang=eng
Joseph Smith’s prophesy spans a time frame over over 200 years and much has been fulfilled with more to come. Jesus Christ’s prophesy spans a time frame of over 2000 years. Much has been fulfilled but still more to come. Show a little consistency in how you judge a prophesy to be false.
Report Post »The Third Archon
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:07pm“I long for the day when the last priest is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.”
Report Post »–Voltaire
joe1234
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:35pmvoltaire is dead and in hell…the church goes on….loser.
Report Post »ashestoashes
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:17amJoel1234 You took the words right out of my mouth….lol
Report Post »FranciscoDAnconia
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:30pmJOE1234-
How do you know that Jesus Christ atoned for every single persons sins?
Let me guess. God told you? You can’t prove it therefore quit disproving other faiths. It makes you look extremely foolish.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:45pm“How do you know that Jesus Christ atoned for every single persons sins?
Let me guess. God told you?
”
yeah He did. its called the Bible….and unlike the lies of that false prophet smith, the bible is true, and has stood for millenia…why should I doubt it?
Report Post »Conservitive Ticker
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 11:29pmJoel1234 A bible! a Bible! I’ve got my bible. God is more than just a bible, Your a fool if you believe God has nothing further to say to his children. Who are you to tell God he no longer speaks to man as he has always done from the beginning. You limit His word to just the Bible, Gods Word where contained in many books that never made into the bible, why is that? Some of the Book in the Dead see scrolls, Apocrypha, the Gnostic Gospel. You are like the Sadducee and Pharisees of old, lost in the precept and traditions of man. The same thing that happened From Adam to Noah, Abraham to the 1st century Jews, From Christ to beyond the Dark ages, man slowly corrupted Gods words. That is why God calls his Prophets and sent his spirit to testify of truth and lead us away from the traditions and corrupt creeds of men.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:52am“God is more than just a bible, Your a fool if you believe God has nothing further to say to his children. Who are you to tell God he no longer speaks to man as he has always done from the beginning:”
didn’t say that…nice lie about me.
He doesn’t contradict Himself….its how we test the spirits….and know the book of mormon is not from God.
Report Post »garyM
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:06pmRomney is right on the freedom to run for office regardless of religion, we even have a Muslim in the House sworn in a Koran, what a joke. Everyone also has the freedom to vote or not vote for any candidate based on everything about them, including religion or lack of if one believes it is a false religion would vote for someone else. Anyone also has the freedom to make that statement, even in a debate. It wouldn’t be PC to make it but the freedom in there, at least for the moment!
Report Post »mobowman
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:02pmChristians believe that God is all powerful and all knowledgeable with infinite wisdom. Would someone explain to me why a God with these attributes could not write as many books as he pleases? Why would faithful followers of this God want to limit what he can write? Isn’t that like the dog putting the muzzle on his master? It seems to me that they should want to learn everything that God would write and be hoping that he will write more.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:28pmIt helps when the book God supposedly wrote is not demonstrably false…
Is it just me or has anyone ever asked what happened to the gold plates? I mean, how do you lose gold plates?
Report Post »knighttemplar999
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:30pmGod has given me a message to write to you, “rhwmwlo kweow dlweiekmm fnje33 ejfjdewhwn”
Report Post »FranciscoDAnconia
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:06pmMOBOWAN-
Its because my pastor tells me that he doesn’t. But all go ask him tomorrow and get back to you. What pastor says I must do. MORMONS are a satanic cult full of people that think they are christian although they really are satanists. Makes sense right? You have seen those horns on their heads right? By the way, those morales that they have. Thats all just a ploy to bring people to satan.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:16pm” You have seen those horns on their heads right? By the way, those morales that they have.”
given the hatred and lies that spews forth from mormons on this board…you sure don’t seem to have any morals…lying for MORONi…its what you do…
Report Post »byudabomb
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:04pmWay to go Joe. In the same sentence you call Mormons haters you insult them and call them liars. Good job
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:48pmJoe1234, you really should tone down your constant rhetoric that everything and everyone that does not agree with you is a lie or liar. It makes you sound stupid. I don’t think you are stupid, just grossly misinformed and with heavy heavy blinders on.
I wanted to reply to your posts about the trinity and scripture support but the old article is not taking new posts so I will do so here.
Tell me if these scriptures (in my next post) that explain what “one” means are also all lies.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:46amEither this web log software is not accepting my bigger post or I will soon see about a dozen posts of the same thing. This is a test.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:53amJesus not only claimed he and his Father were one but prayed that his apostles and all that believed their words would be one with both him and the Father. He repeated the request at least five times.
Report Post »John 17
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, as we are.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:12amWell that’s half of it. It’s not taking all the scripture references. Maybe it doesn’t like all the colons. I‘ll try another way because it’s important that Joe1234 see all the ways in the scriptures that more than one can mean one.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:19amWell let me try just a couple at a time
Report Post »All the scriptures you quoted are the same. They are one. They mean the same thing.
Two scrolls will become one Ezekial 37:19
Jesus had “other sheep” not of this fold that he would make “one fold” John 10:16
joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:19amJoseph of Egypt said Pharaoh’s two dreams were one. Gen 41:26
Report Post »One heart and one soul Acts 4:32
joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:36amNine more where one can be many. Tried posting the text but posting does not seem to be working right.
Report Post »Gen 11:6
Gen 2:24
Matt 19:5
Mark 10:8
Gen 34:22
1 Cor 1:10
1 Cor 12:38
2 Chr 30:12
Jer 32:39
joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 9:35am“Joe1234, you really should tone down your constant rhetoric that everything and everyone that does not agree with you is a lie or liar. It makes you sound stupid. I don’t think you are stupid, just grossly misinformed and with heavy heavy blinders on.”
you know I’ve tried to be respectful to mormons and have a decent conversation…but it seems to impossible…
“kmichaels
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:23pm
Joe1234 does come across as an overly regimented prck at times, does he not?
”
in addition I’ve been called racist and a member of the KKK by this poster and another mormon poster..kevinsomething…
been told I’m gonig to hell by another mormon..
“windwalker
Joe no matter how many times you state lies and half truths it does not make them true. You totally show your ignorance and biases to the world. Why do you work so hard to follow the father of lies, do you not care about your eternal salvation. Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.
”
so if you want a respectful conversation I have no problems with that…if you notice these threads its the mormons who attack me personally first, because they cannot refute what I say.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 9:55amJoel, none of those verses disprove the trinity…I‘m not exactly sure what you’re trying to prove…
you think the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy spirit is God…yet they are 3 distinct beings….and you think Jesus is a created being…those verses don’t really address this…as far as being ONE…yes there are different meanings to the word in scripture….so how do you interpret scripture? with more scripture….The bible is very clear about there being ONE GOD…not 3…
Isaiah 43:
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.
you say Jesus is a God, but he is after God the Father…this verse makes clear that is impossible. you think you will be a god someday…this verse shows that is impossible….
and of course the Shemah Deuteronomy 6:4 hear o Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is one…there are many more verses that show there is one God…
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:35amJoe1234, if you want to wrestle in the mud with the other people that post go ahead. Just stop calling me a liar I have said nothing to deserve that.
I never said all the verses I posted disprove the trinity. All they do is show that the ones you posted do not prove a trinity. In language the word One can mean more than one and often does.
However John 17 does disprove the trinity. If we can all be one with the Father and Jesus who prayed that we all become one with them in the same sense that he and the Father are one that turns the three in one trinity to a billion in one something or other. Not a trinity any more.
To say he is just going through the motions of a Jewish prayer that mentions God is one does not cut it in your argument. Jesus was not one who accepted Jewish traditions but rather was the teacher on how to pray. That Jewish prayer says nothing about God and all who accept Jesus teachings are one. And last time I checked the Jews don’t even believe Jesus is the Savior and one with God. You still have not been able to explain away Jesus’ prayer that we all be one with him and his Father. Neither have you been able to tell me what Jesus did with his resurrected body. Neither how Jesus can be in the express image of his Father and the Father also not have a body of flesh and bones.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:47amOne other observation. Most verses just say Jesus is one with the Father and don’t even mention the Holy Ghost/Spirit. Does that make it a two in one Binary?
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 11:15amWhy stop with just one observation. While I‘m thinking about itHere’s another. The english Bible is translated differently than what you find in other languages. In Genesis where it says God created the heavens and the earth it is better translated as plural that the Gods created the heavens and the earth. Elohim is plural. But notice that it does say let US make man in OUR image. Multiple Gods that are united in one and worshiped as one.
Report Post »Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 11:51am“All they do is show that the ones you posted do not prove a trinity. ”
the ones I showed prove there is one God…not 3. do you need me to post the verses that show the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God? I thought you beleived they were all God, yet 3 separate beings.
“However John 17 does disprove the trinity. If we can all be one with the Father and Jesus who prayed that we all become one with them in the same sense that he and the Father are one that turns the three in one trinity to a billion in one something or other. Not a trinity any more”
not at all…again if you have trouble understanding scripture, use other scripture to interpret…so first we know there aren’t going to be any more gods…Isaiah 43:10….so the question becomes how are we united in God? we won’t be come Gods…so….we look to another verse for illumination…
1 Corinthians 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.[c]
“To say he is just going through the motions of a Jewish prayer that mentions God is one does not cut it in your argument. ”
I don’t know what this refers to…I don’t remember making that argument.
“You still have not been able to explain away Jesus’ prayer that we all be one with him and his Father. ”
just did
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 11:59amNeither have you been able to tell me what Jesus did with his resurrected body. ”
nothing, He still has it what difference does that make?
“Neither how Jesus can be in the express image of his Father and the Father also not have a body of flesh and bones.”
Jesus always existed…the Eternal God…He merely added human nature…while He was on earth He was still God…..and of course He was still part of the Trinity…Jesus didn’t give up his divinity when He came to earth. I don’t know what kind of point you are trying to make with this?
“One other observation. Most verses just say Jesus is one with the Father and don’t even mention the Holy Ghost/Spirit. Does that make it a two in one Binary?”
now aren’t you being a bit silly? When Thomas worshiped Jesus, did Jesus tell Thomas not to forget the Father and the Spirit?
“Elohim is plural. But notice that it does say let US make man in OUR image. Multiple Gods that are united in one and worshiped as one.”
Multiple persons…ONE God…as far as the meaning of Elohim…its used over 2,000 times in the OT….
out of room….next post….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:03pmcontinueing with elohim….
you may find this interesting…
Third, the context of the verse proves the plurality theory wrong. Genesis 1:27, the very next verse, reads “So elohim created man in his own image, in the image of God [elohim] he created him; male and female he created them” (emphasis mine throughout). Just as they are in the rest of the chapter, the pronouns here are singular. So we see that when elohim creates man, God reveals himself to be but one God.
As you do your study, you’ll probably notice several other interesting facts about elohim. For example, it was elohim who said “I give you every seed-bearing plant” (verse 29). It was elohim who said, “I will make a helper suitable for him” (Genesis 2:18). Later elohim told Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people” and “This is the sign of the covenant I am establishing between me and you” (Genesis 6:13; 9:12).
http://www.gci.org/God/Elohim2
so actually it proves the trinity…One God…but a plurality of Persons in the Godhead.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:24pmThen according to John (17:11,20-23) there will be about a billion persons in the the Godhead.
Yes Elohim is also a title given to God but is still plural and in no way says God is some essence that we can’t understand (remember “this is life eternal” to know and understand him and Jesus). Since the fall of Adam, Jesus (Yawah) has always spoken as proxy for the Father and only a few times is a distinction made such as when Jesus was baptized and a voice from heaven testified of Jesus and the Holy Ghost descended like a dove. Also when the Apostle Stephen testified he saw both God the Father and the resurrected Jesus with his body standing on the right hand of God.
But it‘s obvious that we are talking past each other so I don’t think adding more to so obvious a conclusion that they are distinct is going to help change your mind. My only hope was that you might be able to see that your argument was not as strong as you thought and that there are other conclusions (not lies) that are very scripture based in the bible.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:38pm“Then according to John (17:11,20-23) there will be about a billion persons in the the Godhead.
”
I just explained why that wouldn’t be the case….did you even bother to read it?
“Jesus was baptized and a voice from heaven testified of Jesus and the Holy Ghost descended like a dove. Also when the Apostle Stephen testified he saw both God the Father and the resurrected Jesus with his body standing on the right hand of God.”
yeah all indicate the trinity….One God…3 Persons….not 3 separate Gods…
have you ever wondered why Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants ALL AGREE on the Trinity??? and mormons and JWs do not?? hmmmm????
“to so obvious a conclusion that they are distinct is going to help change your mind. ”
why would I change my mind when nothing you have shown me in any way challenges the trinity…in fact your verses prove the trinity…its just your ideology won’t let you acknowledge that. The Bible is clear…there is ONE GOD…I mean its not even a question.
“My only hope was that you might be able to see that your argument was not as strong as you thought and that there are other conclusions (not lies) that are very scripture based in the bible.”
your conclusions read the lies of your false prophet smith into the scripture…you don‘t take scripture as its given but ’properly translated’.
My arguments are pretty strong and have the entirety of christiantity agreeing with me…
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:25pmJoel, you see this is what I don’t understand, how you could follow the interpretations of a proven false prophet like smith. Who comes along 1,800 years after christianity began, and has the hubris to tell us we’ve been wrong for 1,800 years, and he’s right…uh huh.
Christianity has had an enormous number of deep thinkers over the years, men like Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Newton, Pascal, Knox, Luther, Wilberforce, Wesley, etc….were all wrong….uh uh
God fell asleep for 1,800 years until smith rediscovered the ‘true faith’ do you know how ridiculous this is? Given the vast differences between Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, doesn’t the fact they all agree on the Trinity tell you something?
and who is the mormon church to tell us we are all apostate,and they are the only true church? logically this is just laughable.
I would honestly like to know how you can follow a proven false prophet like smith. And why anyone should believe the mormon interpretation of the Bible compared to 1,800 years of the christian interpretation of the bible?
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 5:21pmJoe1234
Those are fair questions (except your accusations about Joseph Smith) and worth answering. It’ll take 3 postings.
First I want to comment on your methodology of interpreting scripture. I agree often it takes a prophet to interpret a prophet. But why does it only swing in the direction that you want? You don‘t like the implications of John 17 so you look for scriptures that you can interpret as contradicting it and then try to explain away the ones that you don’t like. You won’t admit it but that is what you are doing. Given the confusion among all religions over the bible it is also an argument in favor of additional scripture. Don’t you think God would like us to be one in our understanding and of one faith, one God and one baptism?
Some scriptures are to be understood in the context that they are given.
Report Post »“In the beginning God (or “the Gods” in some translations) created the heavens and the earth”. Do you really think that means the beginning of the universe? That billions of billions of galaxies were created just for little old earth and us insignificant people? No that means the beginning of the earth as we know it and the heavens means our view of them. But if you don’t take that in context it leads to absurd conclusions.
joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 5:22pmIt’s not bad to argue based on conventional wisdom but the day will come when the “wisdom of the wise shall perish”. Meaning what we thought was wise and correct turns out to be incorrect foolishness.
Even Einstein was fooled by conventional wisdom. He had the wrong conclusion that the universe was static and held that way by a counter gravity force. He then changed his mind and called that his biggest blunder and thought there was no counter gravity force. In each instance he was both wrong and right. The universe is not static (it’s expanding) and yes there is a counter gravity force that they recently discovered that is causing the universe to accelerate.
To say all Christians are united about the nature of God and the trinity is ignoring history and how they got to that point. What do you know about the Council of Nicene? It took about three or four councils over a 100 year period and a lot of infighting to lock down that incorrect notion about God. Basically they threw up their hands and said our Father is incomprehensible. They also prohibited translations of the Bible to other languages and the reading of it by others that were not the leaders. From there it was easy to indoctrinate everyone from birth to believe what they told them and not what was in the bible.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 5:25pmNone of that could have happened unless there was first a “falling away”, a universal apostasy. Before that time Christians did not have those ideas. Early church members did not believe in a 3 in 1 and also had that strange idea that God wanted us to grow up to be like him (our literal Father). Not that we ever become equal to him or that he loses his position over us or that Jesus ever becomes anything but our eternal Savior.
Jesus was not a created being. Neither are we but we are still not told from what self existing substance we come. We will yet get more scripture and maybe then we’ll understand that. Our spirits are different from the animals in that we are begotten of God.
We would not know any of that except God choose one of his self described weak of the earth with Joseph Smith. To show that by the weak the mighty and wise will come to nothing.
Report Post »If you think 1800 years of “wandering to and fro and not finding the truth” is a long time how do you feel about wiping out all living creatures except for 8 souls?
If I was looking for a church to join I would immediately rule out all that did not claim to be “the one and only true church”. Anything else is an admission that they are not Christ’s because as Christ said “a house divided can not stand”. Remember he told us to be one.
joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:16pmas far as smith being a false prophet…this is just one example…
President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh — even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).
This prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.
Jesus didn’t return in 1891 obviously.
“You don‘t like the implications of John 17 so you look for scriptures that you can interpret as contradicting it and then try to explain away the ones that you don’t like.”
you immediately take it to mean we’ll all be gods like God…thats a rather extreme interpretation..not supported by other scripture…its only supported by mormons…not the rest of christianity…especially when other scripture contradicts your interpretation. I didn‘t ’explain it away’ I explained it, in light of other scripture…since scripture interprets scripture.
“Given the confusion among all religions over the bible it is also an argument in favor of additional scripture”
there is no confusion about that verse in protestantism, catholicism, or the orthodox…none of us take it to mean we will be come gods…
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:23pm“To say all Christians are united about the nature of God and the trinity is ignoring history and how they got to that point. What do you know about the Council of Nicene? It ”
this is such a talking point among mormons…I mean seriously paul had to warn about false brothers…heretics are nothing new in christianity…the council of nicea just confirmed what was already known…its not like the trinity was a new doctrine…you can see the trinity in the old testament. …like Isaiah 9:
•For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
the son is the eternal father….the mystery of the oneness of the trinity.
‘indoctrination’
sigh..as I said we all have it wrong for 1,800 years…and all of a sudden a false prophet gets it right…lets be real.
and the church fathers….
Tertullian (160-215). .
“We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation… [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:31pm“Jesus was not a created being”
hmmm..
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
H.”Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh…” (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, “God the Father,” compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).
are you sure you’re a mormon?
“None of that could have happened unless there was first a “falling away”, a universal apostasy.”
uh when did this universal apostasy come about? how come Jesus lost His church for 1,800 years until a false prophet named smith saved it for Him? come on this is not rational.
From there it was easy to indoctrinate everyone from birth to believe what they told them and not what was in the bible.”
I had to go back to this…you‘re telling me some of the most brilliant men who ever walked the earth were indoctrinated and couldn’t figure it out?? LOL oh come on…CS Lewis was an atheist…and he became a christian….not a mormon…
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:38pm“We would not know any of that except God choose one of his self described weak of the earth with Joseph Smith. To show that by the weak the mighty and wise will come to nothing.”
God does NOT choose false prophets…He really doesn’t like them at all…they were to be stone in the OT…and there is no doubt, at all..that smith is a false prophet…it is a proven fact..as that false prophecy I posted earlier..there are many more…
“If you think 1800 years of “wandering to and fro and not finding the truth” is a long time how do you feel about wiping out all living creatures except for 8 souls?”
first off the Lord would not lose His church for a moment, much less 1,800 years…even in the darkest days of ancient Israel, the Lord told the prophet He kept 7,000 men who did not bend the knee to baal…
1 kings 19:18
Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel–all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him.”
and any student of the bible knows that the time of testing for the Lord is 40..40 days…40 years….its always 40…never 1,800 years…its just not possible.
I do appreciate the gracious manner you have conducted this exchange with.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 10:44pm“If I was looking for a church to join I would immediately rule out all that did not claim to be “the one and only true church”. Anything else is an admission that they are not Christ’s because as Christ said “a house divided can not stand”. Remember he told us to be one.”
uh all christian denominations claim to be part of the body of Christ…whether protestant, catholic, or orthodox…if any single denomination or group claimed to be the ‘one and only true church’ then that would immediately identify them as a cult…and to be avoided at all costs…you know the JWs say the same thing…..why didn’t you join them?
this is a rather frightening statement…its like you are begging to be deceived…
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:02amJesus is worthy of all the names and titles in Isaiah 9. Including Mighty God and Eternal Father as he inherits us through his atonement.
That does not support the trinity.
1800 years is not correct but more like 1600. But we don’t know the exact date the apostasy was complete in where all authority was removed from the people. But this was the
“falling away” 2 Thessalonians 2:3
“famine in the land.. of hearing the words of the Lord” Amos 8:11,12
“the woman given two wings” Revelation 12:14
Then 1830 fulfilled the start of Daniel’s prophesy
“stone was cut out of the mountain without hands”
But why does that time frame matter to you? Isn’t a better question why does God let so many live and die on earth without even hearing about Christ? That happens even today. Only the LDS church has a good answer for that. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison (1 Pet 3:19 and 4:6). After Jesus died the church practiced baptism for the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29) by proxy. Proxy baptism can’t be done for the physically living even if they are spiritually dead. Neither is Paul trying to convince people of the resurrection by saying pagans practice baptism for the dead. Wouldn’t that be a little silly and incredibly weak argument?
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:08amReferring to John 17 you said “you immediately take it to mean we’ll all be gods like God”
Huh? Go back and find that for me. I don’t recall using it for that at all.
However I may add that to “yea are gods” and “be ye perfect” and “all that my Father hath” and “we shall be like him” (1 John 3:2)
Of course he also said few will reach that (not “we’ll all be gods”).
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Thanks for the tip.
You need to use John 17 to understand what the other scriptures say about what being one means. The scriptures that say Jesus and his Father are one or that the Lord is one add no clarity to John 17. It’s like saying “the sky is blue” and thinking that adds understanding to “the sky is blue due to the atmospheric filtering of light waves of certain frequencies”. They both say the sky is blue but only one adds to that information.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:11amAll those churches may more or less be united about the idea of a trinity but there are many important things that they disagree on. That’s why they are different churches. Baptism for example. Tell me which one is right about the importance of, method of, authority to and who should be baptized. Some have even changed positions on that through time. Oddly enough I‘ve heard that Baptists don’t even see it are a requirement as the name implies it should be.
But all seem to unite against the LDS position. That actually gives me more confidence (not that I need it) that I’m on the right side.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:14amJoseph Smith said the meeting (1835) had been called because God commanded it, he did not said God told him 56 years should wind up the scene. That was speculation (aren’t prophets allowed to speculate?) and this is why I can confidently say that.
In all his years till his murder in 1844 he never claimed that “no man knows the day or the hour” was rescinded.
Report Post »1831 D&C 39:21 For the time is at hand; the day or the hour no man knoweth; but it surely shall come.
1831 D&C 133:11 Watch, therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour.
1841 D&C 124:10 For the day of my visitation cometh speedily, in an hour when ye think not of; and where shall be the safety of my people, and refuge for those who shall be left of them?
1844 D&C 130
12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.
14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 4:16am15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.
Joseph Smith was born in 1805
1805 + 85 is 1890
The reason he was entitled to think 56 years from 1835 was possible was because by 1891 he would be 85 or 86 years old which corresponds to what God did tell him and left him to speculate.
Will you give Joseph Smith credit for accurately prophesying of the civil war, 20+ years before it occurred?
Will you apply the same rules and scrutiny to the words of Jesus as you do to Joseph Smith? If so you have a problem when it comes to his second coming.
Report Post »John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:15am“Jesus is worthy of all the names and titles in Isaiah 9. Including Mighty God and Eternal Father as he inherits us through his atonement.
That does not support the trinity. ”
obviously it does….mormons say jesus is a created being…but He is the Eternal God….
Revelation 1:
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
the First and Last..none before, none after…no other Gods..but One…in 3 persons…Father, Son, Spirit, all Eternal…all One…the Trinity…
2 Thessalonaians 2:
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction
when that apostasy comes the anti-christ will be revealed…so where is he?? hmmm?? that hasn’t happened yet….
the prophecy from Amos refers to the inter-testamental period…400 years without hearing the word of the Lord….
REvelation 12:4 refers to Israel…not to mormons, or christians.
“Isn’t a better question why does God let so many live and die on earth without even hearing about Christ?”
this is an assumption…you have no facts to back it up…God doesn’t need us to spread His word….and according to Romans, God knows all who are His, He loses none o
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:37amRomans 9:
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
doesn’t depend on our desire or effort…
“Only the LDS church has a good answer for that”
right, you act like the Lord is just helpless without your help…come on. Salvation is a work of the Spirit…He calls those who are His….He brings us to salvation….or He hardens whom he wants to harden…
and if baptism was SO important, why didn’t Jesus baptize? why did Paul say:
1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
the thief on the cross didn’t need baptism…neither did Abraham….he believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness…
thanks for reminding me….as far as Jesus saying ‘ye are gods’ he refers to Psalm 82…..I think He was being sarcastic..the fate of the ‘gods’ is not good….
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
as far as becoming like the most high…continued
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:44amthis desire to be a god is very troubling…its what Satan wanted to do…
Isaiah 14:14
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”
I don’t want to be a god…I just want to be His.
“But all seem to unite against the LDS position. That actually gives me more confidence (not that I need it) that I’m on the right side.”
you prove Romans 9…the Lord hardens whom He will harden…may God have mercy on you..
so you think you’ll be a god…which is the sin of satan….you think you have to do works to be saved…what Jesus did isn’t good enough…which is the sin of pride…which goes back to satan’s original sin….I mean you really should step back and take a look at your church with a critical eye…you believe a false prophet…
I will stick with the God of my fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob…you have decided to serve a different god. we shall see how that works out for you…I fear it won’t be good at all….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:49amthe lengths you go to to excuse false prophecies…wow…that 56 years is pretty clear….
with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189).
he also made a false prophecy about building the temple in MO….within smith’s generation…and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased
never happened.
as far as the civil war….a lot of people could have prophecied that in the years leading up to it…but smith added this:
- “Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations,” (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3).
another false prophecy..I mean come on…you’re not being rational at this point.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 3:21pmYou have a selective application of standards. Try applying the same to the Bible that you do Joseph Smith.
There are many references in the New Testament where it appears the second coming is immenent
What do you think of this scripture
Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Do you believe that John was given extended life and is still on the earth till Jesus comes? I do. That would explain part of that but it says “some” not “one” will not taste of death till he comes again.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 3:22pmDo you believe that Moses was a prophet and when he gave a promise to the tribes of Israel that came from God? I do. Please explain to me why his promise to the Israelites that they would enter a land of milk and honey did not happen. Only two people of the million plus got to enter the promised land. Was that a false prophesy?
The Missouri temple promised to the people in Joseph Smith’s time will still be built. You may yet live to see that. It will be a city called the New Jerusalem and it will be one of two major cities during the millenium (the other being Jerusalem in Israel).
In both Moses‘ time and Joseph Smith’s the people who received the prophesy of promise were not ready. In Joseph Smith’s time the Lord was kinder and layed much of the blame on evil people outside of the church but also said those that first went there were selfish and not willing to live the Law of Consecration on which the city was to be built.
Numbers 16
Report Post »13 Is it a small thing that thou hast brought us up out of a land that floweth with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, except thou make thyself altogether a prince over us?
14 Moreover thou hast not brought us into a land that floweth with milk and honey, or given us inheritance of fields and vineyards: wilt thou put out the eyes of these men? we will not come up.
joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 3:36pmYou don’t know your history. The civil war sides did call on other nations just as Joseph Smith prophesied. And war has been poured out on all nations. twice so far. Joseph Smith received that prophesy in 1832 when tensions with the South Carolina had subsided and that was not even about slavery if I remember right. No one should have predicted the civil war at that point. The civil war did not occur until the 1860s. Jumping from that time frame to the early 1900 is not that long a stretch in historical terms. WWI was war poured out upon all nations. So was WWII some 30 years after WWI. And if you finish reading that there is even more to come that is far worse than what we have seen yet. The prophesy will be fulfilled completely as will the Temple in New Jerusalem but not on your time frame.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 3:51pmThe Prophet Asaph was contrasting what could be for the people vs what they earned. He also affirmed there is a God of gods (plurality of gods).
Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Jesus was not making fun of Asaph (unto whom the word of God came) but was reaffirming what he said and used that to criticizes those that thought it was blasphemous for Jesus to claim he was the son of God. He said the scripture can not be broken. He pointed out the irony and hypocrisy of correctly believing they can become gods but not accepting someone that just claimed being a son of God.
Report Post »John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 5:48pmDoes the word create to you mean to bring something into existence out of nothing? Create to us means to form something from what already exists. We believe that Jesus has always existed and as he himself says was born by the Father both in spirit and in the flesh. Whatever makes us, us has also always existed but unlike Christ we have been imperfect from the beginning.
Else show me one reference where it says we believe Christ was a created being. Birth is a change (possibly spirit added to intelligence, speculation on my part, or flesh added to spirit) not a creation out of nothing as most so called Christian religions believe.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 7:50pm“Else show me one reference where it says we believe Christ was a created being. Birth is a change (possibly spirit added to intelligence, speculation on my part, or flesh added to spirit) not a creation out of nothing as most so called Christian religions believe.”
I did..
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
H.”Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh…” (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, “God the Father,” compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).
the first spirit to be born in heaven…so Jesus had to be a created being. Elohim is LITERALLY the father o hte spirit of Jesus???? that has to mean Jesus was born much as a human child is born by human parents.
“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers,” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547).
so the mormon jesus had to have a beginning.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 7:59pm“Jesus was not making fun of Asaph (unto whom the word of God came) but was reaffirming what he said and used that to criticizes those that thought it was blasphemous for Jesus to claim he was the son of God”
no it appears the Lord through Asaph was being sarcastic of the pompousness of the religious jews of his day, much as Jesus was of the pharisees. and if you use this to justify becoming gods..then even as a ‘god’ you’re going to die….so its not good either from a physical or spiritual viewpoint..
“Does the word create to you mean to bring something into existence out of nothing? Create to us means to form something from what already exists. We believe that Jesus has always existed and as he himself says was born by the Father both in spirit and in the flesh. Whatever makes us, us has also always existed but unlike Christ we have been imperfect from the beginning.”
yes because God creates ex nihilo (sp?) out of nothing….so you think you have always existed?
but your god is not eternal…
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
the Christian Jesus is. so your god did not always exist. is not eternal…so your jesus isn‘t eternal and had a ’born on’ date.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 8:03pm“You don’t know your history. The civil war sides did call on other nations just as Joseph Smith prophesied. And war has been poured out on all nations. twice so far. ”
this is really sad the lengths you mormons go to defend a false prophet…have you no shame?
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations,” (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3).
the civil war had nothing to do with WWI or WWII..neither of which war involved ‘all nations’ apparently you don’t know your histories very well…and to claim WWI and WWII were a result of the civil war is just delusional.
its very hard to take you seriously when you make such a claim…
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 8:50pmDo you call yourself a creationist? Was the entire universe created out of nothing in one day as some read into Gen 2:4?
Seems to me there is little difference between you and the big bang evolutionists that you argue against. You both think all matter in space came into being in an instant. Infinite space but finite matter.
Don’t know how you can expect them to take you seriously as a counter argument to the big bang and evolution.
As to the civil war revelation why do you add things that are not there? He never said that the civil war would be the cause of the other wars any more than the rest of the revelation which talks about earthquakes etc. Do you also want to imply that Joseph Smith thought the civil war would cause earthquakes?
D&C 87
Report Post »2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States ….
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 9:33pmYes. God creates out of nothing ex nihilo…He just speaks the Word..and it happens.
Don’t know how you can expect them to take you seriously as a counter argument to the big bang and evolution.
I don’t really argue against the big bang, it supports my position…as far as evolution….well creation an evolution are both matters of faith, when you get right down to it…they can’t evolve a multi-cellular animal out of a bacteria for example…and I can’t create a new life form, obviously…it is basically an extention of the atheism/theism argument.
“As to the civil war revelation why do you add things that are not there? He never said that the civil war would be the cause of the other wars any more than the rest of the revelation which talks about earthquakes etc”
it sure sounds like it to me…
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations,” (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3).
the civil war would start…other nations would ally themselves with the north and south…and then total war.
I find it interesting in your quote you would cut off verse 3 and then skip to verse 6…
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:21pmI did it for brevity. Was only going to use verse 6 but then thought I wanted a little context. Read the whole thing here.
http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/87?lang=eng
It doesn’t change what I said. One war is not necessarily the trigger for another and certainly not the trigger of earthquakes. The revelation does not say that the coming civil war (over 30 years in the future) would be the trigger of everything that follows including the end of all nations.
If you want more revelation about coming events Brigham Young and other prophets have spoken about yet another civil war that will be very different than the first. It will be very much like what Jesus said when he spoke of family members being against other family members. In some ways geographical and other ways not. But you don’t believe in anything outside the bible so no worries for you.
The prophet Asaph said “God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.”
The prophet Asaph said “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”
So are you claiming that Jesus was telling those that wanted to stone him that the prophet Asaph was wrong? Why would he do that when trying to show them the hypocritical irony in their thinking? Does this make sense? “You want to kill me because I claim godhood and the prophet Asaph was wrong” No logic. Paul said there are gods many and lords many. So did Asaph and Jesus reaffirmed that.
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 1:06amDo you believe the big bang occurred 6000 years ago or 13.7 billion years ago? Or whatever the current number of the day is for the big bang?
If God created the universe only for us then what is his next step after we are done? To bask in the glory of our adoration forever and ever? If so God is extremely limited.
We believe in a God vastly more than that. Our God is not limited in growth and our planet is just a spec in his creations. Our glory adds to his glory. God wants all to be exalted. It’s not a sin to want that. Works well symbiotically in the eternities. Satan’s problem is he seeks his own glory (exalts himself) at the expense of others. Jesus in contrast already had glory with the Father but was willing to abase himself and submit to all things that the Father had him do in behalf of us.
Luke 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 8:55amJoel, so what I posted was accurate and smith said the civl war would ignite a war that would involve all nations…it didn’t….WWI and WWII had nothing to do with the civil war…and did not involve all nations.
For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then awar shall be poured out upon all nations.
its clear the civl war according to smith, kicks off a war the ‘shall be poured out upon all nations’ didn’t happen. I don’t understand how anyone can defend this.
“If you want more revelation about coming events Brigham Young and other prophets”
you mean the same brigham young who gave this false prophecy?
“In the days of Joseph [Smith] it was considered a great privilege to be permitted to speak to a member of Congress, but twenty-six years will not pass away before the Elders of this Church will be as much thought of as the kings on their thrones,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 40).
uh huh
“But you don’t believe in anything outside the bible so no worries for you.”
lets see I believe in calculus…it wasn’t in the bible…thats a rather ridiculous statement.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 8:59am“So are you claiming that Jesus was telling those that wanted to stone him that the prophet Asaph was wrong? ”
no obviously not…He was being sarcastic…read the next verse in psalms…those gods die….gods don’t die do they now? the Lord was mocking the people he directed that psalm at…..try reading psalm 2 sometimes..
you know who else wanted to be a god? the very first being who wanted to be a god? satan.
Isaiah 14:
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
you really should step back and think about what this whole ‘becoming a god’ thing entails…its the original sin.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 9:03am“Do you believe the big bang occurred 6000 years ago or 13.7 billion years ago? Or whatever the current number of the day is for the big bang?”
don’t really know the time frame…probably more than 6,000 years…probably not 13.7 billion…hard to say, since the Lord created the universe, as He did Adam, mature.
“If God created the universe only for us then what is his next step after we are done? To bask in the glory of our adoration forever and ever? If so God is extremely limited.”
I believe I could stand in the presence of the Lord for an eternity basking in the beauty of His holiness and enjoy it more every moment…I don’t know what the Lord has in store…a new heavens a new earth…eye has not seen, ear has not heard…nor can the mind of man conceive what the Lord has in store for him…1 corinthians 2:9
“Luke 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.”
and who is it who thinks they will become a god?
Report Post »joel228
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 5:49pmWhy on earth would Jesus refer to sarcasm as “the scripture can not be broken”?
Report Post »Was sarcasm the word of God that came to Asaph? Is God sarcastic?
And was he sarcastic with the second part “all of you are children of the most High”?
libertytreecaretaker
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:02pmNot until Romney repudiates Christie. Perry should not say a dam thing. Christie is a progressive! Look up how he feels and Governs on gun control. Birds of a feather flock together. the GOP picked a progressive in McCain in 2008. if you expect a different outcome you’re an idiot! Look Perry is unellectable because of his imagration stance.
Report Post »FranciscoDAnconia
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:55pmUntil Christians can prove that Jesus Christ is the son of god, let’s try not to prove other religions false. How about that? Common sense anyone?
Report Post »FranciscoDAnconia
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:36pmJOE1234-
Climb out of your parents basement and get out of the bubble you are in. Your ignorance and bigotry are so blatant that its kind of embarrassing. Honestly, I am surprised you didn’t join your friends down at Wall-street. I might be able to hire you on minimum wage working for my company? Let me know.
Best of luck.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:43pm“Your ignorance and bigotry ”
at least I’m smart enough to post to people that are in the same thread!! LOL
you’re just upset because the truth hurts!!
oh you really shouldn’t defecate on police cars…its nasty…
loser.
Report Post »etoddt
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 12:10pm@ JOE1234
But Francisco is making a good point – Do you really intend to single-handedly fight everyone who disagrees with you in this forum?
Why are you doing it? Seriously – introspectively – Why?
Is it because you really think you‘ll change peoples’ minds by challenging them on every issue you don’t have in common? Look at the posts – the opposite is happening. People who normally wouldn’t care are fighting back and getting angry with you. Name calling (by you and them) ensues. Is this really helping anyone?
Do you think this is what God wants you to do? If so, then God to you seems similar to Allah (Muslim God) who demands vengeance and retaliation instead of love and compassion. Saying you must expose “false prophets” doesn’t justify the way you’re doing it. Where are any of the parables of Christ about forgiveness and understanding in the statements you’re making? Are you really representing the God you say you are?
Or are you bored and doing all this for attention and fun? If so, then try to enjoy all this more – don’t be hurt when people challenge you back. Honestly, could say everything you’re saying with greater impact if you approached this all with a bit of humor and kindness.
Anyways – here’s to having a good day!
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 7:27pm“Or are you bored and doing all this for attention and fun? If so, then try to enjoy all this more – don’t be hurt when people challenge you back. Honestly, could say everything you’re saying with greater impact if you approached this all with a bit of humor and kindness.”
I know its ALL my fault that mormons get foul-mouthed and angry when challenged…you mormons are SO pure and SO holy I wish I could be like you….
I’m actually hoping the mormons will react as they have…to show the falseness of their works-based religion and so far I am not disappointed…
as far as changing anyone’s mind….really do you think that EVER happens on a message board?
I find it offensive when mormons call themselves christians, so I challenge them…they don’t like, and get mad and act in the most unchristian like manner….point made.
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 14, 2011 at 7:12amjoe1234
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 8:33pm
“Do you really intend to single-handedly fight everyone who disagrees with you in this forum?
Why are you doing it? Seriously – introspectively – Why?
Do you think this is what God wants you to do? If so, then God to you seems similar to Allah (Muslim God) who demands vengeance and retaliation instead of love and compassion”
Right back at you joe.
Report Post »spreadcommonsensenot pc
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:01pmIf “We the people” want to talk about “CULTS” then o-blabber-mouth would be——————-
muslim/heratic christian cult…………………….
Report Post »pwatkins
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:58pmI knew Christie was a rhino and now it is proven. Why should Perry have to say anymore? He said he didn’t believe what the pastor said, by saying “no” several times, but I don’t believe Christie knows what “no” means no more than Clinton knew what “is” meant…..typical politicians… Christie and Romney. Can’t wait to see what their debates have to offer us tonight. I would say Perry is the better man in this argument bc if he had a problem with Romney’s religion he would have said something long before now. I believe this pastor was a plant from either the left or the Romney campaign. We are at our wits end in this great land we call America. Can you trust anyone? Maybe Glenn, Rush and a few more from Fox are all I trust in the political media arena. I put all my faith in Jesus and know we will get through this. I know Mormon Christians by the way, and also know a few in my own Baptist church that aren’t Christians. When will people learn that religion is not what makes you a Christian, but following the verse, John 3:16 is the answer. What is so great about the Love of Jesus Christ is one can be a non-believer all his or her life and be saved in an instant. May God Bless all of us.
Report Post »mad_hatter
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:04pmBecause Perry is more of a RINO than Romney. Plus his crony capitalism and being a career politician. Perry can not stand.
Romney and Cain are the best choices. They have the needed experience to get us out of this recession.
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:38pm@ Mad_Hatter
Report Post »I agree with your comparison of Perry to Romney.
But as between Cain & Romney, Cain is clearly the better of the two.
spreadcommonsensenot pc
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:55pmRomney-Perry———progressivism hard ar work here.
Report Post »The Pastor IS theologically correct——BUT!!!!!! BOTH are progressives living
a LIE………………………….nyet…..on both
aaron11
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:27pmNo he isn’t. If you were trying to define cult with its literal definition, you’ll find all Christian faiths match that description. Thats why no reputable church takes the claim seriously. The simple fact is this “pastor” is about as un-Christ like as you can get. How arrogant and prideful do you have to be, to speak for the Lord on who is among his flock and who isn’t?
Report Post »eagleye
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:31pmCommonsense.You are theologically ignorant,the very fact that The actual name of their Church is The Church of Jusus Christ of Latterday Saint’s ( Mormon as you bigots put it) states that they are follower’s of Christ.How many of their meeting’s have you attended on Sunday? I’ll bet not one. How many books have you read from their Church or anyone else on this Forum who claim‘s that they are not Christian’s read? I’ll bet probably 0 huh. What do you know of their teaching’s besides your own bigoted,so called hear say knowledge that you heard from some Freind‘s Cousin’s,Ant who has a brother in law who know‘s a freind who heard his second Cousin’s Mother’s son say something stupid that they presume to think they know. You Stupid ignorant Bigoted Ass holes have no clue as to what your talking about.I suggest instead of making ignorant,ill informed grossly bigoted and hipocritical statement‘s like the little **** Weasel Pastor and Perry have made here that you do some serious checking of your fact’s.
Report Post »FranciscoDAnconia
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:03pmTHEOLOGICALLY CORRECT?
I have a question? What makes one a christian? Since christians define it. I thought maybe god did….but I guess I am wrong. Let me know if one of you can call me a christian so I can make it back to heaven. If I say I am christian does that make me a christian? Okay sign me up. I am pretty sure Barack OBama calls himself a christian. hmmm this is really interesting. So Mitt Romney considers himself a Christian, yet Obama does too. But because Mitt is also Mormon, he can’t possibly be christian. Just trying to pice this together. Please help help help.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 9:37pm“Please help help help.”
ok, take off the tin-foil and get back on your meds…that will help!
Report Post »FranciscoDAnconia
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:39pmJOE1234-
I hope you have a plan for when your unemployment runs out. I guess you could still participate in this message board at the library. They usually have free internet. All look into it for you.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:46pm“All look into it for you.”
who is all?? is that the voices in your head?? you really should get back on your meds….
at least you dont have worry about being unemployed…those who live in rubber rooms don’t have to work…
Report Post »mad_hatter
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:51pmThis is a good start to a great debate. I am excited that this debate is suppose to be ‘only’ on the economy. The pundants are going crazy because most of them are saying that this is the last chance for Perry and Bachmann. They need on the top of their game on this one, being on the most important issue.
Here is a breakdown of what the different networks are saying about the debate tonight: http://www.thedailycandidate.com/video/2011/oct/gop_debate_previews.html
Report Post »spreadcommonsensenot pc
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:49pmprogressives hard at work here—–even though the Pastor speaks the theological truth……
Report Post »Romney-Perry BOTH are living the LIE———PROGRESSIVISM
The Third Archon
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:56pmWait…what? I was unaware Perry and Romney were on our side (Progress). If that‘s true who ISN’T on our side?
Report Post »spreadcommonsensenot pc
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:11pmClueless—–all you do is listen the them,,,,,,romney for HC, gives money to planned PH, open borders—-UN charter——anything else clueless?
Perry——UN charter “open borders”——-Thats enough, he can play the “conservative Christian” card all he want, but he gave himself up with the open borders policy……………………….progressivism
dummy
Report Post »mad_hatter
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:45pmRove had some choice words for Perry, telling him he needed to repudiate the pastor as well. ( http://www.thedailycandidate.com/video/2011/oct/rove_politics_mormons.html ) That this will drag him down and hurt his candidacy. I agree with Romney that for the member of the Mormon church at least, Perry needs to repudiate any rhetoric like this. It has no place in politics.
Report Post »slr4528
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 11:42pmI agree. After all there are about 14 million followers of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints… but maybe these Evangelical pastors don’t deem them worthy of respect.
Report Post »Juniemoon
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:44pmDon’t need to repudiate anything, we can have our beliefs just like Mormons can have their warped beliefs. I found Glenn’s statement that because they used Jesus Christ in the title of their church, they can’t be a cult. Dumbest thing I ever heard come out of Glenn’s mouth.
Dear Glenn,
Get away from John Huntsman, your best friend Pat and go find a Jewish Messianic Rabbi and please get them to show you why you are in a cult. When you done with that, try to understand how masonry is demonic. And please stop thinking God is speaking and leading people who participate in occult practices. The voice you hear is not of God. He doesn’t work like that and he is not a universal God who accepts all faiths. There is one Faith, one Baptism (Acts 2:38) and One GOD. Allah is not his name, neither is Buddah. It is YHVH. Stop lying to your family, think of those children you have and what it’s worth to them to know the truth.
Do not add or take away from God’s word. Smith did that.
Report Post »TomBurpee
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:58pmJuniemoon,
I’m sorry that with all the time you spent listening to Glenn, you hadn’t picked up on the Constitution. While the Founders themselves may have had beliefs, they wanted the United States to accept all religion. Freedom of Religion, means Freedom of Religion. If you want to be in a cult, you’re allowed to be in a cult. Right?
So I think it‘s mighty ’Progressive’ of you to issue a statement telling Glenn how to worship. I’m sorry, I don’t recall that being your right, or anyone’s right. I have no power over you, but I shun the narrow minded ideals upheld by yourself, and Pastor Jeffress.
Report Post »The Third Archon
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:10pmReligion is like two children arguing over which of their imaginary friends is the “most awesomest” one and on this basis each offers there own circular teleological reasons for accepting the existence of their respective phantasm.
Report Post »Doctor Nordo
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 8:15pm@JUNIEMOON
“Do not add or take away from God’s word. Smith did that.”
Show me the verse you took that from and I‘ll show you how you have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about.
Report Post »ArmyGirl
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 12:59amIt only states in 2 places “thou shalt not add unto or take away from.”
Rev 22:18-19 Because the Book of Revelation was just for John.
Deuteronomy 12:32 The 5th book of Moses, Because these are Moses’ books and words.
So with that logic do you suppose that anything after Deuteronomy is “added”.
Do ye suppose that God cannot speak more words, is His work yet finished?
Report Post »Do ye suppose that the Bible contains all His words? I
ArmyGirl
Posted on October 12, 2011 at 1:15amJoseph Smith did not add unto or take away from anything.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of THIS book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in THIS book: (speaking specifically of this book of Revelation)
Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (Doesn’t specify, but whatever He commands you)
Report Post »The Third Archon
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:40pm“I don’t believe that that kind of divisiveness based upon religion has a place in this country,” Romney added.”
Report Post »Tell that to the Blaze.
Cat
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:36pmWhat we are looking at is a picture of the DC establishment’s idea of Pres. & VP …
Report Post »mobowman
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:35pmRomney is endorsed by Christie … Perry is endorsed by Jeffress: doesn’t that just about say it all?! While Romney attracts responsible leaders, Perry attracts arrogant religious thugs that use chest pounding and Bible thumbing to put others down. What a “Christian virtue”! Let’s leave the leadership of this nation to the protection of Romney/Cain! Perry/Huckabee for Vatican Guards!
Report Post »This_Individual
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:34pmCome on buddy, as if it really bothered you that much.
Report Post »INOGAWD
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:38pmAWHHHHHH, thats nice !!
Report Post »Tim Law
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:30pmNone issue. Both seem like RINO’s to me.
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:27pmThat dummy Jeffress pretty much handed the nomination to Romney. Whether or not you agree that Mormons are Christians, everybody agrees that most of them are conservatives. By forcing all the conservative candidates to make mealy-mouthed non-statements as they try to weasel out of either endorsing or denouncing his comments, he guaranteed that none of them will win.
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:47pmActually, I think that Jeffress has helped Cain more. Perry wants to be the “non-Romney” candidate, so by bone-headedly putting Jeffress up to introduce him and by not promptly (i.e. at the VVS podium) distancing himself from bigotry, Perry has hurt himself yet again. As folks peel away from Perry, most will go to Cain, not Romney — this despite the fact that Romney & Perry are better described as “moderates” than as “conservatives.” Now, if only some of the Paulistas will join the Cain Train . . . . oops . . . we are not supposed to be talking about “cults,” are we?
Report Post »staunch conservative
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 6:25pmFunny how Newt used Repudiate in a GOP debate and now everyone has to use the word….
Report Post »Chet Hempstead
Posted on October 11, 2011 at 7:58pmMaybe they just want to show that they known it’s repudiate and not refudiate, the nonword Sarah Palin used twice.
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