Romney Skips Iowa Evangelical Event
- Posted on October 23, 2011 at 4:54pm by
Christopher Santarelli
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Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney made his first campaign stop to Iowa in months on Thursday. While the former Massachusetts governor says he wants to gain the support of Iowans, Romney did not attend an event with other candidates and 1,000 Iowa evangelical activists Saturday, the state’s “most potent conservative voting bloc” according to AP. CBS News on Romney’s no-show:
Despite claims that evangelicals have not warmed to Romney because of “flip-flopper” perceptions, Mitt still leads all other Republican presidential primary candidates in current Iowa polls. Ten weeks away from the state’s leadoff presidential caucus, Romney was in New Hampshire on Saturday. Romney’s campaign is leading national polls now as it was at the time of the last Iowa event he skipped, the Iowa straw poll which was won by Minnesotta Rep. Michele Bachmann. While much has changed since that poll; the rise and fall of Bachmann and Texas Governor Rick Perry, exit of Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty and recent ascension of Herman Cain, Romney once again sits atop national polls.
Romney’s no-show may make it seem like the campaign does not feel welcome at events like the one Saturday night, but evangelical leaders say the invitation is genuine. Steve Scheffler, president of the Iowa Faith and Freedom Coalition, insisted to CNN that it is not a “threatening environment.”
“Tell me what there is to fear by coming to this event?” Scheffler said. The Iowa Faith and Freedom Coalition hosted the presidential forum in Des Moines on Saturday that featured an estimated 1,000 attendees. Scheffler continued to express his frustrations to CNN:
“‘Tell me what there is to fear by coming to this event – to making their case?’ he continued. ‘Why have the six other candidates accepted and the perceived front-runner decided not to come?’
Saying that his group has ‘bent over backwards to tell [the Romney campaign] this is not a threatening environment,’ Scheffler said. ‘I have to conclude that they don’t feel comfortable in this arena.’”
While evangelicals who spoke with CBS said their reservations towards Romney had nothing to do with his Mormon faith, at the last social conservative event Romney attended two weeks ago, pastor Robert Jeffress compared Mormonism to a cult.
Do you think that Romney still has time to gain support from evangelical conservatives, and if his campaign even wants to?
Do you believe Romney has not gained support from Iowa conservatives because of “RomneyCare” and perceived flip-flops on social issues, or is there another explanation?
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Comments (458)
PJL
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:05pmIt will just be more of I’m a better Christin than you are event, no mater who you are.
Report Post »Mimi24
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:28amWhat is a christin? Did you mean Christian? No “mater” as you say, or did you mean matter?
Report Post »An Arizonan
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:50amMitt Romney is an AUTHENTIC Christian in word and deed. Would that all pro-choice candidates would convert completely to Pro LIFE candidates as Mitt has. Mitt is as conservative as one can get and still win in November of 2012. He is the only one who will beat Obama in a LANDSLIDE. He is the only candidate who can help us overcome the Bush/Obama Tarp1/Tarp2 Depression. He is NOT a rino. He is a true conservative Republican in every way. He is much more conservative than Reagan!… and was never a Democrat like Reagan was in the past. He is the most conservative candidate the Republican Party has seen in many, many years. More conservative than Bush 1 or 2., More conservative than Reagan, more conservative than Ford or Nixon. I believe he is much more conservative than Eisenhower! He is what true conservatives have hoped for, for many, many years.
ROMNEY – RUBIO 2012 the winning ticket and hope for all conservatives.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:45amGood bye Romney!
Do you know Romney’s record?
Report Post »http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBXe3Kvg-qU
jedi.kep
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:36am@Arizona, Sorry, Mormon faith does not equal Christian faith. Mormon faith departs from Christian faith with the additional book (book of mormon) and the whole Joe Smith vision and Jesus supposedly talking to native americans. They are not Christian. Sorry.
Report Post »americanut93
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:03amMIMI24, it’s great to see how mature you are not correcting little mistakes by people like PLJ….oh wait nvm…..
Report Post »slwolfgram
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:20amBeing pro-life doesn’t make you a Christian. Accepting Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for you and asking Him to be Lord and savior of your life ….that makes you a Christian.
Report Post »Nosocialists
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:30amSo what if Romney is a Morman. They live a very moral life and regard family as a very high priority. What do you think of “Dingy” Harry Reid? He is a Morman and is the current Majority Leader of the Senate. Apparently Nevada did not elect him because of his religion.
I have been a conservative all my adult life and my main goal in 2012 is to dispatch Obama to the dust bin of history. So, I say do not be dogmatic in choosing a Republican candidate. Rather, choose the most conservative candidate that will defeat Obama and put an end to his socialist agenda!
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:33am[jedi.kep
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:36am
@Arizona, Sorry, Mormon faith does not equal Christian faith. Mormon faith departs from Christian faith with the additional book (book of mormon) and the whole Joe Smith vision and Jesus supposedly talking to native americans. They are not Christian. Sorry.]
You are so right. Even though all the other Christians differ from one another we cannot permit the LDS Christians to be different.
And God forbid that God gives us another prophet. Why would God do that after 2000 years time? And why would God give us new scriptures since he gave us the New Testament after he gave us various books in the Old Testament. That does not make sense for God to do that again.
Scriptures from God, Prophets from God. New words from God. God forbid that he follows a pattern.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:43am[slwolfgram
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:20am
Being pro-life doesn’t make you a Christian. Accepting Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for you and asking Him to be Lord and savior of your life ….that makes you a Christian.]
LDS teaching claims that Jesus died on the cross for us and died for our sins and that we must accept him as our personal Lord and savior. So I guess that makes us Christian.
Report Post »LibertyGoddess
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:10amEvangelicals are liars. They had no problem with Huckabee and his extremely liberal agenda. He was voted the worst governor for spending and they supported him in lock step. The Evangelicals are looking to sink Romney and all they are doing is showing their Christian Taliban side. The world wants no more of your bullying and discrimination. We are a new country now. We are wiser and more educated. We don’t swallow your Christian Pill. We can work together as conservatives, bring our country back in alignment with faith, hope and charity and fiscal responsibility or we can lose another election to Obama and his cohorts. Your choice. Mitt will be fine, just fine if he wins.
Report Post »VERYCONCERNEDCHRISTIANPATRIOT
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:02pmAN ARIZONAN,
Very thoughtful and honest posting. I feel more comfortable supporting Mitt Romney than any of the other candidates in the race. Mormons are some of the most Christianlike people I have ever met. They typically live very clean and moral lives and are very sincere in their beliefs. You rarely ever find one who smokes, drinks or uses bad language. They seem to live their church values 7 days a week instead of many fellow Christians who leave their religion at the door step of the Church when exiting on Sunday.
This country needs a revival and one of the key factors is a whole lot more tolerance towards other Relighions and that includes Mormons, Catholics, sincere peaceful Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses etc. It is like Mitt said respecting other faiths and civility are Christian virtues also.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:15pm“And God forbid that God gives us another prophet. Why would God do that after 2000 years time? ”
yeah a false prophet at that!!!
“LDS teaching claims that Jesus died on the cross for us and died for our sins and that we must accept him as our personal Lord and savior. So I guess that makes us Christian.”
did you forget this?
A.”One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 92).
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:19pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:15pm
“And God forbid that God gives us another prophet. Why would God do that after 2000 years time? ”
yeah a false prophet at that!!!
“LDS teaching claims that Jesus died on the cross for us and died for our sins and that we must accept him as our personal Lord and savior. So I guess that makes us Christian.”
did you forget this?
A.”One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 92).]
Your problem Joe1234 is that you only half-read even those things you post. LDS teach that if it were not for Christ’s gift and grace then the opportunity to repent and continue on in the faith would never happen. That means that first, Christ saves you from the separation from God, thereby satisfying the broken law, which required separation. Then, your duty is to accept Christ as your guide, then, do as he commands. And he commanded that you continue keeping all the words of God, all of his commandments and strive towards perfection.
I forgot none of this. You are
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:28pmJoe1234 thinks that murderers will be allowed into heaven.
Revelations:
7 He that overcometh shall inherit call things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Christ’s atonement paid the penalty for the broken law. Which forgave mankind of their sins. But this forgiveness was conditional upon what you as a person does next. You must repent, do your sins no more, and accept Christ as your savior and continue keeping the commandments. The scriptures are clear on all of these.
But confused evangelicals have decieved themselves, with the help of Satan whispering in their itching ears, that you no longer have to keep the commandments and that you are now magically cleansed no matter what you do in the future.
Yet Christ was clear on actually following his guidance and “becoming clean” and “enduring to the end” It is a foolish and satanic idea that you will just be deemed clean and allowed into heaven. However the scriptures say that “no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Christ is not a loophole into heaven but rather a perfect example to follow. “What manner of man ought ye to be?” asks Christ. “Even as I” Christ answers. “Be ye therefore perfect as thy Father in heaven is perfect.”
Eva
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:33pm“Then, your duty is to accept Christ as your guide, then, do as he commands. And he commanded that you continue keeping all the words of God, all of his commandments and strive towards perfection. ”
thats nice if you want to do that….just don’t confuse your religion of works with christianity…and please stop telling everyone that your decidedly non-christian faith is christian….its like the muslims telling everyone that Jesus was a muslim.
Report Post »VERYCONCERNEDCHRISTIANPATRIOT
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:33pmJOE1234,
Who the hell are you to judge them? You are as bad as the Pharisees who accused Jesus of being false. You do not have to join their church that is your choice if you believe their Prophet to be false, but that is your personal conclusion and if you are following your faith the way you should be you would not make statements that you have no way of proving. That is a very big accusation you make and you better have the facts as of right now you have about 13 million Mormons who feel otherwise and most of them I have met do not seem to wear their religion on their sleeves and not the kind of people who seem like they could be very easily duped.
Whn is the last time one of them told you that your faith was false and other rude comments that you so easily spew out. I doubt seriously that you are much of a follower of Christ or you would have left your comments unsaid and to yourself.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:41pm“Who the hell are you to judge them? ”
why not since they accuse people like me of being apostate? hmmm?? so who the hell are they to judge me??
“That is a very big accusation you make and you better have the facts as of right now you have about 13 million Mormons who feel otherwise and most of them I have met do not seem to wear their religion on their sleeves and not the kind of people who seem like they could be very easily duped.”
oh its just not me who makes its….moron….its the whole of christianity…
While the Catholic Church would reject nothing that is true or good in Mormonism or any other world religion, Catholic theology would have to note that there is a tremendous amount in Mormonism that is neither true nor good. Further, because Mormonism presents itself as a form of Christianity yet is incompatible with the historic Christian faith, sound pastoral practice would need to warn the Christian faithful: Mormon theology is blasphemous, polytheistic, and cannot be considered on par with the theology of other Christian groups.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/what-does-the-catholic-church-say-about-the-practices-and-beliefs-of-mormonism
I would say get a clue, but I don’t think its possible in your case….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:43pm“Christ’s atonement paid the penalty for the broken law. Which forgave mankind of their sins. But this forgiveness was conditional upon what you as a person does next. You must repent, do your sins no more, and accept Christ as your savior and continue keeping the commandments.”
really? and who sins no more? no one…again your faith isn’t christian…
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
notice the past tense…BEEN saved…not going to be saved, if ONLY you do the right thing…
oh and how many works do you need to do and what works to be saved?? its what you mormons cannot answer…no surprise.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:49pm“Whn is the last time one of them told you that your faith was false and other rude comments that you so easily spew out. I doubt seriously that you are much of a follower of Christ or you would have left your comments unsaid and to yourself.”
you’re incredibly ignorant…
“And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth” (1 Nephi 14:10).
“A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ,” (The Articles of Faith, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, p. 182).
according to the mormons they’re the only real christians, the rest of us are apostate.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:54pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:43pm
“Christ’s atonement paid the penalty for the broken law. Which forgave mankind of their sins. But this forgiveness was conditional upon what you as a person does next. You must repent, do your sins no more, and accept Christ as your savior and continue keeping the commandments.”
really? and who sins no more? no one…again your faith isn’t christian…
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
notice the past tense…BEEN saved…not going to be saved, if ONLY you do the right thing…
oh and how many works do you need to do and what works to be saved?? its what you mormons cannot answer…no surprise.]
Christ said that you need to keep all of the commandments of God and live by “every word which proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.”
Sorry if God’s words offend you so much. But that is your problem. How many works? All of God’s commandments. How many words do we live by? By every word which comes from God. Not some, every.
And keeping the commandments and being judged according to your works is strictly according to the scriptures. And this is totally compatible with Christ’s atonement giving us the ability to be reconciled with God. The fact that this is conditional is clear in the scritpures telling us that few will find the correct gate and continue on in the path.
Report Post »VERYCONCERNEDCHRISTIANPATRIOT
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:56pmJust for the record I do not personally attend any church at this time, but I will say that I have attended services at many churches in my life and have found that the Mormon’s love Christ and believe they are following his beliefs every bit as much as any other church I have attended. I have even attended services at the kingdom hall and I hear people bashing them but in many respects they are living a more Christian life than many of those doing the bashing. Neither the Mormon’s or the Jehovah Witnesses accept a salary for leading their Congregations, I have met one Evangelical who does not either but most of them do have some who are paid for preaching.
Report Post »VERYCONCERNEDCHRISTIANPATRIOT
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:59pmMake that two Evangelicals as I forgot Joel Olsteen does not take a salary for preaching either, he makes his money off of the books he writes and not off the tithes and love offerings of his congregation.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:05pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:33pm
“Then, your duty is to accept Christ as your guide, then, do as he commands. And he commanded that you continue keeping all the words of God, all of his commandments and strive towards perfection. ”
thats nice if you want to do that….just don’t confuse your religion of works with christianity…]
Joe1234 loves to talk in circles. He will agree that “faith without works is dead” at one point in time then later on, when he is trying to denigrate works of righteousness he will condemn you and say that promoting good works necessarily makes you non-Christian.
This confusing circular logic from Joe1234 stems from his accepting false traditions of man. It forces him to bark up the wrong trees and sound baffled and self-contradictory all of the time.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Now foolish Joe1234 will have some sort of nincompoop response to this. It will involve more circular logic on his part, because in his small mind he won’t quite get it. So he will attempt to pick apart this clear scripture with some really moronic logic.
The hosts of heaven refer to those that teach that we must keep all of God’s commandments as the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. But Joe1234 will s
Report Post »VERYCONCERNEDCHRISTIANPATRIOT
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:12pmThanks for exposing yourself for the bigot you are Joel, it is obvious that you are here to mock, condemn. and ridicule much like the pharisees of old. You probably would have done the same thing to Christ and his followers, if you were raised as a pharisee back in his time as you sure seem very smug that your way is the one and only way to God.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:50pm“Christ said that you need to keep all of the commandments of God and live by “every word which proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.””
where did He say keep all the commandments?
Mt 22:36 “ which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, ’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”
“ow many works? All of God’s commandments. How many words do we live by? By every word which comes from God. Not some, every. ”
then you ‘sir’ are a hypocrite….mormons do not follow all the OT laws…obviously.
“d keeping the commandments and being judged according to your works is strictly according to the scriptures.”
no, its not…
Romans 4:3
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
you deliberatly confuse salvation with rewards.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:57pm“Joe1234 loves to talk in circles. He will agree that “faith without works is dead” at one point in time then later on, when he is trying to denigrate works of righteousness he will condemn you and say that promoting good works necessarily makes you non-Christian”
and I don’t try to deceive people by equating salvation to rewards. you want to know the work that God wants? here it is…
31.John 6:28
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
John 6:27-29 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
32.John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
“The hosts of heaven refer to those that teach that we must keep all of God’s commandments as the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. But Joe1234 will s”
and you mormons do NOT do this….you eat shellfish, correct? do you wear garments made of more than one material? do mormons stone adulterers? then you break the law of God. have you ever eaten ham or bacon?
I do feel sorry for you, such stupidity has to hurt.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:58pm“Thanks for exposing yourself for the bigot you are Joel, it is obvious that you are here to mock, condemn. ”
thanks for exposing yourself as a hate-filled lying wacko.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:59pm“if you were raised as a pharisee back in his time as you sure seem very smug that your way is the one and only way to God.”
uh huh, the pharisees were VERY concerned about works….and who does that describe today?? oh yeah the mormons….
your hypocrisy, and stupidity are just stunning.
and gomer, did ya notice the mormons say there rest of christianity is apostate and of the devil??
what a buffoon.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:01pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:50pm
“Christ said that you need to keep all of the commandments of God and live by “every word which proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.””
where did He say keep all the commandments?
Mt 22:36 “ which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, ’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”]
I showed you where Christ said to keep all the commandments multiple times. And Christ was answering which was the GREATEST COMMANDMENT, not what constitutes all of the commandments.
And it is you that is confused and it will be the host of heaven referring to you and your ilk as the “least”.
Those that preach that you must keep all of the commandments will be referred to as “THE GREATEST”.
So says the scriptures. You have seen them but you insist on denying them.
And what is confused is you, confusing salvation from the broken law with entry into heaven.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:09pm“I showed you where Christ said to keep all the commandments multiple times. And Christ was answering which was the GREATEST COMMANDMENT, not what constitutes all of the commandments.:”
uh huh and you violate them regularly…again, do you eat ham? how about shellfish? do you stone adulterers and homosexuals? you mormons don’t keep the law…obviously.
“So says the scriptures. You have seen them but you insist on denying them.”
uh huh says the hypocrite who says we must keep all the law…and then willingly violates most of the OT law. laughable.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:19pm[Joe1234: and you mormons do NOT do this….you eat shellfish, correct? do you wear garments made of more than one material? do mormons stone adulterers? then you break the law of God. have you ever eaten ham or bacon?]
Sorry silly little man, but you are confusing the works of the traditions of man with the commandments of God. When Christ was asked what commandments we must keep he rattled off the ten commandments, he did not rattle off not eating shellfish. The eating of shellfish was based on a tradition of man, and was not required by God.
Christ did not condemn all works, he condemned works of iniquity. However he encouraged “works of righteousness”. However evangelicals, basing there beliefs on false traditions of man, have managed to get all squirely about works of any kind. They are simply sad children deluded to the point of playing games of semantics destined for a dead end approach to God.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:25pm“Sorry silly little man, but you are confusing the works of the traditions of man with the commandments of God. When Christ was asked what commandments we must keep he rattled off the ten commandments, he did not rattle off not eating shellfish. The eating of shellfish was based on a tradition of man, and was not required by God.”
funny little man…more lies and BS…you pick and choose what laws you want to follow….no surprpise since you follow a false prophet…so you’re telling me leviticus is NOT the word of God??
Leviticus 11:
9 “‘Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams you may eat any that have fins and scales. 10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to regard as unclean
here’s a few more laws from GOD HIMSELF you hypocrital mormons violate…
18.To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
19.To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
20.To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
21.To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.
you’re a pathetic little hypocrite.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:43pmThe examples you are giving as “commandments” were referred to by Christ as the works of Moses. He explained that those were the works that were not required to be kept. However, when Christ was asked which commandments to keep he said this:
Here are a few scriptures in the New Testament showing specifically that we are to keep God’s commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
John 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Luke 18:
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Matthew 25:
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Notice the righteouse are those that do the Father’s will and did good things to others, the sick,
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:47pm“He explained that those were the works that were not required to be kept. However, when Christ was asked which commandments to keep he said this:”
so in other words you were lying when you said this:
“Sorry if God’s words offend you so much. But that is your problem. How many works? All of God’s commandments. How many words do we live by? By every word which comes from God. Not some, every. ”
because surely leviticus is one of Gods word…and you said BY EVERY WORD WHICH COMES FROM. NOT SOME. EVERY.
ok so you were lying…oh wait I think you just broke a commandment!! LOL
“Notice the righteouse are those that do the Father’s will and did good things to others, the sick,”
really so you’re saying Abraham was not righteous then?
Romans 4:3
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
no works.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:58pmMore scriptures that confused Joe1234 likes to ignore since they make his view seem quite contradictory.
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
But don’t bother Joe1234 with these things. He despises anyone that claims that they need to have works of righteousness follow them.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:06pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:47pm
“He explained that those were the works that were not required to be kept. However, when Christ was asked which commandments to keep he said this:”
so in other words you were lying when you said this:
“Sorry if God’s words offend you so much. But that is your problem. How many works? All of God’s commandments. How many words do we live by? By every word which comes from God. Not some, every. ”]
Joe1234 is such a pathetic nitwit. Do try to pay attention. Christ was told this by you pharisee types regarding divorce …
Matthew 19:
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for afornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
So apparently the issue is that MOSES allowed certain things that did not come from God, since we have an example before your very eyes of Christ correcting what Moses commanded with what God commanded.
But let me guess Joe1234 you are too stupid to understand the difference between Mose‘s law and God’s law.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:15pm9.Rom. 4:16, “Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.”
Report Post »10.Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
11.Rom. 5:9, “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”
12.Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.”
13.Rom. 9:33, “just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
14.Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
15.Rom. 10:9-10, “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
16.Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:16pm“But let me guess Joe1234 you are too stupid to understand the difference between Mose‘s law and God’s law.”
you‘re too much of a liar to realize mose’s law IS GOD’s LAW….you’re a deceiver.
who do you think gave moses that law hmmmmm???
Report Post »justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:19pm@Joey12345678…..whatever…Look dude – we are seeing the age old argument between “Evangelical” Christians and “Mormon” Christians. You use some statement by the Catholic church to prove your point, but instead it just opens my eyes to the fact that any arm of Christianity will claim that their interpretation of the Word is the most correct. If they did not do that, why would they be worshiping there in the first place? So my friend, EVERYONE, no matter what sect of Christianity they follow, believes that they are correct. There will never be an end to this argument as long as there are people interpreting Holy Writ. So quit your bellyaching, bigoted approach to voting for a purely secular position and get real with yourself and everyone else. Do mormons believe in God, Christ and the Holy Ghost? YES! Do they believe in YOUR interpretation of who those beings are? No, as you have so kindly shown us. Play in your sandbox, let them play in theirs and quit throwing the shovel at them just because they call it a spade!!
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:20pm“o apparently the issue is that MOSES allowed certain things that did not come from God, since we have an example before your very eyes of Christ correcting what Moses commanded with what God commanded.”
wow what a liar and deceiver you are…
Book of Deuteronomy
24:1 -
“When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that F366 she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house,
and whats the indecency????
Book of Numbers
Report Post »Chapter 5 :12 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, `If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him,
joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:23pm“justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:19pm
@Joey12345678…..whatever…Look dude – we are seeing the age old argument between “Evangelical” Christians and “Mormon” Christians
”
look dude, why aren’t you whining to the mormons? hmmm?? hypocrite much?
and the mormon god isn’t the same as the christian one…I would say get a clue, DUDE, but I don’t think its possible in your case…
Report Post »justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:27pmAnd furthermore Joey-o…all the mormons I know realize that they cannot ‘work’ their way into heaven. However, I tend to agree with them that you can’t get there simply by professing to believe in Christ whilst sitting on your thumbs. If I look at the two of your doctrines, I notice that a lot of your differences are simply semantics. You say you have to accept Jesus to be saved. What do you mean by saved? Once you say “I accept you Lord” then you are saved and you can go on your merry way? That sounds to me like a cheap and easy way to get to heaven. If that were the case, why did Jesus himself say it would be easier to pass a camel through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven? Because the things the rich man would choose to DO or not DO would keep him out of heaven. There is always an element of work to something valuable and worthwhile. Why doesn’t such a simple concept we all strive to teach our children apply here? I for one think you are mistaken. Proclaim your faith to Christ, live as he would have you live, and by the power of his grace, you will be saved. Proclaim, fail to live like him, and you will find yourself on the left hand at the day of judgement where he will say “I never knew you”….
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:29pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:16pm
“But let me guess Joe1234 you are too stupid to understand the difference between Mose‘s law and God’s law.”
you‘re too much of a liar to realize mose’s law IS GOD’s LAW]
You are mental retardation at it’s finest. I just showed you a scripture where Christ corrected what Moses allowed. Christ would not have had to correct it if it was God’s law. Sheesh you really are incredibly stupid.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:35pmLittle Joe we should call Joe1234, for he has a very small minded approach to life, a very small man syndrome when you correct him, and a very small knowledge of the actual works of God.
Yep, little joe fits his small mentality oh so well.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:40pmThis one here calls little joe a liar …
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
This one here calls little joe the “least”. I guess it is God’s sense of humor calling least joe little, using the word least.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:45pmThis one here is telling little (the least) joe that his rigtheousness does not exceed that of the Pharisees (in that he sounds exactly like the Pharisee that condemned Christ) and that little (the least) joe will not be entering the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:47pmThis one here tells little (the least) joe that you are not justified by faith only but by works too.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:50pm“You are mental retardation at it’s finest. I just showed you a scripture where Christ corrected what Moses allowed. Christ would not have had to correct it if it was God’s law. Sheesh you really are incredibly stupid.”
hey you brain-dead moron…..I just showed where there was no contradiction….don’t let facts get in the way of your lies and deception.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:51pm“Little Joe we should call Joe1234, for he has a very small minded approach to life, a very small man syndrome when you correct him, and a very small knowledge of the actual works of God. ”
all the girls you’ve ever met say how small you are…..
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:52pmThese here tell little (the least) joe that based on what you do to others (your works) you will either gain eternal life or not. Joe is currently preaching things that will land him on the not side of the equation, in other words, eternal damnation, eternal punishment, etc.
Matthew 25:
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Report Post »justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:53pmAnd why am I all of a sudden a hypocrite? Because I disagree with you Joe? Your reaction sounds like one that Saul Alinsky would be proud of. Marginalize me, call me names, whatever. I simply think the approach you and your fellow Evangelicals take against others who believe differently than you is mean-spirited and most un-Christian in every way. You and kmichaels have put on quite a show as each tries to defend their faith. We get it! You disagree with each other! How about you set that aside for a moment and get down to the bottom of the issue. You, Joe , wont vote for Romney because he is a mormon. That screams bigotry, plain and simple. Most of us here would rather choose a candidate on the merits of his or her record. Isn’t that what we screamed out loud about Obama for? His record was crap!! If you disagree with how Romney has handled his job duties, then dont vote for him. Just quit the religious back and forth that just tires everyone out here!!
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:53pm“However, I tend to agree with them that you can’t get there simply by professing to believe in Christ whilst sitting on your thumbs.”
well good for you…good luck working your way into heaven…you‘re saying what Jesus did isn’t good enough for you…just like the mormons…the sin of pride…the original sin.
“Once you say “I accept you Lord” then you are saved and you can go on your merry way? That sounds to me like a cheap and easy way to get to heaven.:”
yeah that never happens…but then if you were ever really saved you’d now what an idiotic statement that is.
“There is always an element of work to something valuable and worthwhile”
well fine, you work your way into heaven…I’l be like Abraham and believe God…and we’ll see who wins in the end.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:55pm“Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
hey gomer, I’ve just shown where you break all the commandments….talk about a holier-than-tthou hypocrite!! you don‘t even try to follow God’s commandments and laws…
and you have the temertity to call moses a false prophet…while following that proven false prophet smith…..
you display amazing stupidity……I feel sorry for you, you must be in a great deal of pain…such stupidity has to hurt.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:58pm“And why am I all of a sudden a hypocrite? Because I disagree with you Joe? ‘
yeah because you called me out, and not your mormon friends…hypocrisy much? they‘re the ones who say the rest of us aren’t christian. they’re the ones who proclaim how good they are…and how they work for their salvation…laughable.
“I simply think the approach you and your fellow Evangelicals take against others who believe differently than you is mean-spirited and most un-Christian in every way”
and I simply think the approach you mormons take against real christians is mean-spirited and un-christian…thus proving once again mormons aren’t christians.
your mormon friend calls me all sorts of names…but that doesn’t bother a hypocrite like you.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:59pm“These here tell little (the least) joe that based on what you do to others (your works) you will either gain eternal life or not. Joe is currently preaching things that will land him on the not side of the equation, in other words, eternal damnation, eternal punishment, etc.”
and these here tell that you’re saved by faith and grace…
9.Rom. 4:16, “Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.”
Report Post »10.Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
11.Rom. 5:9, “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”
12.Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.”
13.Rom. 9:33, “just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
14.Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
15.Rom. 10:9-10, “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the
justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:02pmReally Joe? I mean Really?? If you would just read and then use logic, you might understand what I said. Of course I can’t work my way into heaven, and no, I do not devalue what Christ did for me. Even if I tried my hardest to live a good life, as a human being, I would fall short of the goal. Christ, with his grace, picks up the difference and Atones for me, allowing me to be At One with God. Get it? Atonement..at -one – ment. He did it, I can’t. And how shallow of you to denigrate my personal relationship with God and Christ!! I wake up every morning praying to have the strength to stay true to the teachings of Christ, try my hardest to reflect them in the way I live, and go to bed praising Him. Every day man! Not just on Sunday! For you to come here and tell me that what I am doing is wrong is simply rude and disrespectful. Go your own way, make your own path, whatever…just quit trashing folks who dont see it your way.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:08pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:55pm
“Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”]
Notice idiot little joes headfake. He ignores Christ talking above in his scriptures about needing to keep the commandments, in order to back up his lunactic false assumption that Moses‘s lesser laws are the same as God’s commandments.
I showed idiot Joe at least one case where Christ corrected Mose’s lesser law about divorce. Lesser joe immediately ignored it because the poor idiot kid has no where else to go.
[hey gomer, I’ve just shown where you break all the commandments….talk about a holier-than-tthou hypocrite!! you don‘t even try to follow God’s commandments and laws…]
What little joe showed was that he thinks Mose‘s lesser laws are the same as God’s laws. Like I said, liltte (the least) joe sounds identical to the idiot pharisees.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:09pm14.Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Report Post »15.Rom. 10:9-10, “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
16.Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
17.Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
18.Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
19.Gal.3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
20.Gal. 3:8, “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations shall be blessed in you.”
21.Gal. 3:14, “in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through
joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:12pm“Really Joe? I mean Really?? If you would just read and then use logic, you might understand what I said. Of course I can’t work my way into heaven, and no, I do not devalue what Christ did for me. Even if I tried my hardest to live a good life, as a human being, I would fall short of the goal. Christ, with his grace, picks up the difference and Atones for me”
yeah really…PRIDE….Jesus only ‘picks up the difference’ right….Jesus did it ALL…His FINISHED work is our salvation…not by works, lest any man should boast…
ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast
yeah you want to boast before God…PRIDE.
“I wake up every morning praying to have the strength to stay true to the teachings of Christ, try my hardest to reflect them in the way I live, and go to bed praising Him. Every day man! Not just on Sunday! ”
yeah you‘re SO holy you don’t need Christ obviously.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:13pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:59pm
“These here tell little (the least) joe that based on what you do to others (your works) you will either gain eternal life or not. Joe is currently preaching things that will land him on the not side of the equation, in other words, eternal damnation, eternal punishment, etc.”
and these here tell that you’re saved by faith and grace…]
Since faith without works is dead, as I clearly showed you, then the correct understanding is that you are saved by faith, with works of righteouseness, an opportunity afforded you by the grace and gift of God, through the atonement or Christ.
Otherwise little (the least) joe, you would have to ignore all the other scriptures. However, you do tend to ignore the bulk of the scriptures just so you can hold onto your screwed up view of a few others.
That is where evangelicals always get stuck. They lock onto a handful of scriptures while ignoring the vast majority of other scriptures. Then need to do this because their interpretation of the few scriptures is so very wrong.
Whereas the LDS teach the whole gospel, without a need to ignore any of the scriptures.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:14pm“Notice idiot little joes headfake. He ignores Christ talking above in his scriptures about needing to keep the commandments, in order to back up his lunactic false assumption that Moses‘s lesser laws are the same as God’s commandments. ‘
wow you are such a liar. who do you think God gave the 10 commandments to??? MOSES
pathetic stupdity.
poor little kmichaels….trying to be such a big boy…bet your momma is so proud of you!!
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:15pmoh little kmichaels….I see you ran away from that lie at the bottom of the page when you said Isaac was a polygamist…
no surprise you don’t have the guts to admit you were wrong…it would take a man to do that…and its rather obvious you’re just a litte boy…LOL
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:17pm“What little joe showed was that he thinks Mose‘s lesser laws are the same as God’s laws. Like I said, liltte (the least) joe sounds identical to the idiot pharisees.”
hey gomer, the pharisees thought they could work their way into heaven just like you mormons!!
you must be a masochist….to enjoy being made such a fool out of!!! LOL
you’re just a small small man….its why you can’t get a date!! loser.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:20pm“Since faith without works is dead, as I clearly showed you, then the correct understanding is that you are saved by faith, with works of righteouseness, an opportunity afforded you by the grace and gift of God, through the atonement or Christ.”
here’s the work Jesus wants us to do:
31.John 6:28
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
John 6:27-29 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
32.John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:28-30 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
little kmichaels wants to prove he’s a god and work his way into heaven…..thinks what jesus did isn’t good enough……
the sin of pride…just like his father satan. kmichaels wants to work his way to hell….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:22pm“Whereas the LDS teach the whole gospel, without a need to ignore any of the scriptures.”
the LDS twists the gospel and adds the lies of false prophets like smith, and young.
smith said Jesus was coming back in 1891….lie
smith said the temple would be built in missouri by his hands….lie
brigham young said in 26 years the elders of mormon church would be looked on as kings on the earth….lie
and here’s little kmichaels another false prophet in a long line of mormon liars and deceivers.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:22pmJustin, I like how you think. You use logic and demonstrate wisdom. Joe on the other hand demonstrates pride, anger and a rather boastful attitude himself. Ask him if he is saved then ask him why. It always boils down to some small work that he did, by “accepting” Christ. Ask him what accepting Christ means though. Then he gets really confused. His false assumption is that you need to merely mouth a few words about acceptance then the work is done. I have showed hundreds of scriptures that prove his belief to be a false one. Christ demands many things and joe just accepts those that back up his backwards views about God.
You are correct Justin. Christ makes up the differences, allowing for our weaknesses, but, as the scritpures say, God will not be mocked. We will be judged according to our works, if they be good, then eternal life, if they be evil, then eternal damnation.
Christ gave us an opportunity to be at one with God, by what he alone did. But then Christ says to take upon ourselves his yoke. And a yoke distributes the work between two or more workers. So the yoke of Christ get’s us through the work that we cannot do on our own.
“If you love me, keep my commandments.” This is what the LDS teach. That first, Christ saved us and atoned for our past sins. However, to show that we truly have faith in him, we will not be weary in doing good, and that we will both strive to keep his commandments and to teach others to do so.
Joe is lost in hi
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:28pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:17pm
“What little joe showed was that he thinks Mose‘s lesser laws are the same as God’s laws. Like I said, liltte (the least) joe sounds identical to the idiot pharisees.”
hey gomer, the pharisees thought they could work their way into heaven just like you mormons!!]
No, the pharisees thought that they could take man made traditions that left out the spirit of God’s laws and substituted them with retarded nonsensical ideas of how many steps you were allowed to take on the sabbath. The pharisees forgot that the sabath was made for man and not man for the sabbath.
And the pharisees ignored Christ’s higher laws and relied upon man made traditions. That is exactly what you do. I post Christ’s scriptures and you mock and defile them. I post God’s higher laws and you insist that we must refrain from shell-fish, or Mose’s lesser laws.
In short you are a fool regarding the gospel and you end up coming across exactly like a fool.
Does your righteousness exceed that of the pharisees? Because Christ said that it must. Does yours? If so, how does it? Do you follow man made traditions instead of following Christ’s very words? You sure seem to. You mock mormons because they say you must keep the commandments. I showed you scriptures saying that we must keep the commandments and teach others to do so, Yet you mock, because you are a small minded person with no truth in you.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:29pm“You use logic and demonstrate wisdom. Joe on the other hand demonstrates pride,”
from the man who thinks he’s going to work his way into heaven???
just amazing…..wow.
kmichaels wants to boast before God…
Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
the sin of satan…pride….on display with kmichaels…thinks he will boast before god about his good works….
“You are correct Justin. Christ makes up the differences, allowing for our weaknesses”
so Christ wasn’t good enough for Kmichaels…he’s gotta add his own goodness and works….
the sin of pride…the sin of satan.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:31pm10.Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
11.Rom. 5:9, “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”
12.Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.”
13.Rom. 9:33, “just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
14.Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
15.Rom. 10:9-10, “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
16.Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
Report Post »17.Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:31pm18.Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Report Post »19.Gal.3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
20.Gal. 3:8, “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations shall be blessed in you.”
21.Gal. 3:14, “in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
22.Gal. 3:22, “But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”
23.Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
24.Eph. 1:13, “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.”
25.Eph. 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”
26.Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”
joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:35pm“And the pharisees ignored Christ’s higher laws and relied upon man made traditions. That is exactly what you do. I post Christ’s scriptures and you mock and defile them. I post God’s higher laws and you insist that we must refrain from shell-fish, or Mose’s lesser laws.”
you are a pathetic liar. have you no shame? you violate the very commandments you say you follow.
you ignore and twist every scripture I post…just like your father satan does.
you are the one who said we must follow EVER WORD that comes from God…and now you lie about the law of moses and say it wasn’t from God….
you heap lie upon lie…just like your father satan.
“I showed you scriptures saying that we must keep the commandments and teach others to do so”
yeah because you don’t keep the commandments…you pick and choose which commandments…and then blatantly violate them….see the lies above….
you’re a shameless liar…its really pathetic.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:36pmHere is the comparison of views in brief:
Joe believs that you are saved by grace, regardless of what you do.
Mormons believe that you are saved by grace, with a faith demonstrated by good works.
Joe ignores good works while boasting about his own salvation.
Mormons include good works as a demonstration of true faith, but that none of it would be possible without the grace of God and the atonement of his Son Jesus Christ.
Joe leaves out and ignores more than half the scriptures since they contradict with his foolish conclusions.
Mormons follow all of the scriptures, ignore none, appologizing for none. One truth backs up the other.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:41pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:20pm
“Since faith without works is dead, as I clearly showed you, then the correct understanding is that you are saved by faith, with works of righteouseness, an opportunity afforded you by the grace and gift of God, through the atonement or Christ.”
here’s the work Jesus wants us to do:
31.John 6:28
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
John 6:27-29 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
32.John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:28-30 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)]
No doubt joe is stupid enough to think that the opening of the gate must be the entirety of the work. That is how stupid joe really is.
Imagine idiot joe trying to follow a recipe.
1) First believe in Christ, as your savior.
2) Keep my commandments.
3) Love your neighbor as yourself
4) Love God with all your might mind and strength.
5) Save a man be born of the water and the spirit.,
Notice idiot joe stops at the first step and calls the work complete. This is the sure sign of an idiot.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:43pm“Joe believs that you are saved by grace, regardless of what you do.
Mormons believe that you are saved by grace, with a faith demonstrated by good works.
Joe ignores good works while boasting about his own salvation.
”
hey gomer, you can‘t boast about anything if you’re saved by Faith and Grace….
you’re the boastful one who boasts about your good works….What Jesus did isn’t good enough, since you have to add your own works….talk about boastful pride….just like satan himself.
again you prove what a liar you are and a commandment breaker.
“Mormons follow all of the scriptures, ignore none, appologizing for none. One truth backs up the other.”
mormons twist the scripture and have to add the lies from their false prophets like smith and young…
I notice you don’t have the guts to address those false prophecies…God doesn’t speak through false prophets.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:44pm“No doubt joe is stupid enough to think that the opening of the gate must be the entirety of the work. That is how stupid joe really is.”
now you’re calling Jesus a liar….
but hey thats what mormons do.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:44pm[Joe1234 you are the one who said we must follow EVER WORD that comes from God…and now you lie about the law of moses and say it wasn’t from God….]
Correction number one, Christ said that we must live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.
Correction number two, Christ corrected the pharisees understanding about the lessor laws of Moses. Christ explained that those views of theirs (and Joes) were flawed.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:48pm“Correction number one, Christ said that we must live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.”
the law of moses came from the mouth of God.
Matthew 5:
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven
Correction number two, Christ corrected the pharisees understanding about the lessor laws of Moses. Christ explained that those views of theirs (and Joes) were flawed.
”
the pharisees view of the law was flawed…the law was not….see above…
and all your twisting and lies won’t change it.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:53pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:43pm
hey gomer, you can‘t boast about anything if you’re saved by Faith and Grace….]
You have, on multiple occasions, claimed that you are saved, and that others are not. You claim that mormons are not saved. You say they are not saved because of something that they either do or do not do.
Mormons believe in Christ and accept his atonement and his gift and his grace. Mormons teach that belief in Christ is a necessity.
You claim you are saved joe. What saved you that does not save others? It always boils down to you claiming that because you believed (your work) that you were saved. Either that are you go off on a retarded tangent that no, it was Christ that caused you to believe, thereby making Christ a respecter of persons, saving you randomly while not saving others randomly.
You are a mass of confusion Joe.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:56pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:48pm
“Correction number one, Christ said that we must live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.”
the law of moses came from the mouth of God.]
Then it would be called the law of God, and not the law of Moses. Likewise, Christ would not have had to correct you and the other pharisees on the subject of divorce, which according to moses allowed for divorce, yet, according to Christ, the law of God did not allow it.
You are trapped joe, once again, by the truth.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:02pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:44pm
“No doubt joe is stupid enough to think that the opening of the gate must be the entirety of the work. That is how stupid joe really is.”
now you’re calling Jesus a liar]
Not remotely, I am calling Joe1234 a liar, since he does not have the truth of Jesus in him. Jesus said that you first enter the gate, then you follow the path and endure to the end, never weary of doing good works.
So no, it is not Jesus that lied (idiot saul alinsky joe) but rather it is you that lied.
Joe is so incredibly stupid that if Christ gives three different requirements in three different scriptures, which he does, then it must mean that you can choose just one of the three. I say you adopt all three requirements and not cherry pick your favorite.
Joe is of the mindset that you cherry pick your favorite, which usually involves less work, less effort and quickly concluding that the work is done when it has only begun.
Report Post »Mary M. Tebbe
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:05pmkmichaels: I see that you are here defending your mormon religion again. Please understand that many of us have studied the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS of mormonism, which your founders Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and the like taught. It is evident by your writings that you show that your mormon religion has evolved over time from the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS, which many of us have quoted directly from your own founders, which cannot be incorrect, as they are THEIR OWN WORDS.
Report Post »You often take issue with my saying that you believe in Adam-god. Brigham Young, in The Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50 said: When our father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body and brought Eve, one of his celestial wives, with him. He is OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD and the ONLY GOD WITH WHOM WE HAVE TO DO.
Lorenzo Snow, the former President of the Mormon Church, Millennial Star, Vol. 54, also The Gospel Through the Ages by Milton R. Hunter, pp.105,106 said: As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pages 50 – 51 said: When the virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was NOT begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who was the father? He was the first of the human family. Jesus our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden and who is our father in heaven.
Brigham Young is referring to his Adam-god.
kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:13pmSo then Joe, since Christ’s works should be good enough to save everyone, using your logic, why is everyone not saved?
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:23pm[Mary M. Tebbe
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:05pm
kmichaels: I see that you are here defending your mormon religion again. Please understand that many of us have studied the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS of mormonism,]
Where in any LDS scripture does it say that Adam was the God of this world?
I asked you this before, you ignored it, so that you could play your gotch game.
You do understand dont you that the LDS presidency has been correctly flawed understandings of even their own followers, including private teachings of past prophets do you not?
Perhaps you are unaware that the LDS do not believe in the concept of infallibility of prophets. Yet you are assuming that we do. In that, as was already pointed out to you, you are most definitely wrong.
The LDS have never held to a canonized belief that Adam was the God of this world.
Whether Brigham Young was stuck on that point, I have no idea. Since prophets are not infallible then it does not matter to me.
Did early prophets during the Old Testament think the sun revolved around the earth? Don’t know, don’t care.
Report Post »Mary M. Tebbe
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:42pmkmichaels: I do not go back and check what people say to me. Frankly, I don’t have the time to do that anymore. I used to read much of what people wrote on this site, but can’t do that anymore either.
Report Post »Why do you not stand by your founders? After all, they are the ones who founded your cult. I read your writings here today, and you are very confused about Jesus role in Scripture. Satan has bewitched you, for he is the author of confusion, as Scripture tells us.
I started reading through the book of mormon, and found it a fairy tale. The person who wrote the book of mormon certainly DID NOT understand Scriptures of the Old Testament and the New Testament, or Israel’s role in history. The book of mormon contradicts the Bible in so many ways. I found so very many mistakes historically that it didn’t pay to read through the entire book of mormon. In my estimation, and not meaning to be harsh, one would have to be pretty ignorant believing what Joseph Smith actually wrote.
Believe me, I have had many a conversation with your young mormon missionaries, and I understand how deceived mormons are. I have shared the true gospel message with them, and then prayed that God would open their eyes to the truth. They are sincere, but they are sincerely wrong.
joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:48pm“Then it would be called the law of God, and not the law of Moses. Likewise, Christ would not have had to correct you and the other pharisees on the subject of divorce, which according to moses allowed for divorce, yet, according to Christ, the law of God did not allow it.
You are trapped joe, once again, by the truth.
”
uh gomer, I already showed you that what Christ said about divorce is exactly what moses said…because its what God said…and yet you continue to LIE about it….
you’re a liar…rinse and repeat.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:50pm[Mary M. Tebbe
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:42pm
kmichaels: I do not go back and check what people say to me. Frankly, I don’t have the time to do that anymore. I used to read much of what people wrote on this site, but can’t do that anymore either.
Why do you not stand by your founders?]
Why can’t you learn to read? Too difficult for your ability? I stated clearly that it was not canonized doctrine. You do understand the term correct? If you were not so anxious to play childish gotcha games you would be able to learn more easily.
As to your views of the gosple, I have seen many things you have written and they definitely are not backed up in Old or New Testament writings.
I understand that you think you understand the gospel, but according to things you have stated, you are rather backwards, and tend to have a child’s understanding of the power of God.
Maybe you can answer the question.
Are you saved? If so, who saved you? Why you and not somebody else? What about the millions that have died that never even heard the name Jesus Christ. Are they saved? If so, why, if not, why not?
Frankly, you have little sense of either justice or wisdom, based on your past writings.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:50pm“You have, on multiple occasions, claimed that you are saved, and that others are not. You claim that mormons are not saved. You say they are not saved because of something that they either do or do not do.”
again you prove yourself a liar…yes I am saved…I have never said you aren’t because that would violate what Jesus said about judging…
lets get it clear, I don‘t judge anyone’s salvation….
you think that what Jesus did isn’t good enough and you have to add your own works to that….so you can boast before God…which the scripture specifically condemns.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:55pm“You claim you are saved joe. What saved you that does not save others? It always boils down to you claiming that because you believed (your work) that you were saved.”
talking mental retardation…hey gomer, belief isn’t a work….duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wow
“Either that are you go off on a retarded tangent that no, it was Christ that caused you to believe, thereby making Christ a respecter of persons, saving you randomly while not saving others randomly.”
yeah Christ did cause me to believe…so its not my work…how hard is this you brain-dead moron?? lying for MORONi its what you do.
nothing random about it….another LIE of yours….answer me this, and I know you can’t why did God hate esau? hmmmmm???
I see you have nothing to say about your false prophets, ie LIARS smith and young…
and you’re not man enough to admit you LIED when you said Isaac was a polygamist…
so I guess that commandment about lying isn’nt one you bother to follow OBVIOUSLY. must be nice to be your own little god and choose what commands you want to follow..*smirk*
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:58pm“Joe is so incredibly stupid that if Christ gives three different requirements in three different scriptures, which he does, then it must mean that you can choose just one of the three. I say you adopt all three requirements and not cherry pick your favorite.”
Kmichaels again proves what an incredible liar he is…christ doesn’t give different requirements.
and you choose to ignore the law of GOD (ie the law of moses) and pick and choose which you follow…what a HYPOCRITE!!!
‘So then Joe, since Christ’s works should be good enough to save everyone, using your logic, why is everyone not saved?”
Christ’s works are good enough to save everyone…again you‘re saying jesus isn’t good enough for you.
not everyone accepts it…hey gomer its like if I try to give a moron like you a hundred dollars, and you refuse……then you don’t get the money…how hard is this??? duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:59pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:48pm
uh gomer, I already showed you that what Christ said about divorce is exactly what moses said…because its what God said…and yet you continue to LIE about it….]
Really? No, you did not show what you think you showed. Especially since Christ stated this scripture. Which is not remotely consistent with the bs lies you are currently telling.
Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
So either Jesus errored, assuming that Moses allowed something that he should not have allowed when Moses allowed no such thing, or you are a lying little weasel. I choose the fact that it is you, little (the least) joe that is the lying little weasel. Of course, this is not that hard of choice, since you are a proven repeatitve liar.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:02pm“Really? No, you did not show what you think you showed. Especially since Christ stated this scripture. Which is not remotely consistent with the bs lies you are currently telling.
Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
”
and what did Jesus go on to say?? you forgot verse 9 you lying piece of trash…
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery
and thats exactly the same reason moses gave in GOD’S LAW…
“So either Jesus errored, assuming that Moses allowed something that he should not have allowed when Moses allowed no such thing, or you are a lying little weasel. I choose the fact that it is you, little (the least) joe that is the lying little weasel. Of course, this is not that hard of choice, since you are a proven repeatitve liar.”
you lying little POS caught you in another lie
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:03pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:50pm
“You have, on multiple occasions, claimed that you are saved, and that others are not. You claim that mormons are not saved. You say they are not saved because of something that they either do or do not do.”
again you prove yourself a liar…yes I am saved…I have never said you aren’t because that would violate what Jesus said about judging…
lets get it clear, I don‘t judge anyone’s salvation….
you think that what Jesus did isn’t good enough and you have to add your own works to that….so you can boast before God…which the scripture specifically condemns.]
Well little joe, since it does not matter what anyone teaches, and that we are all saved anyhow, and not according to what we do, why all the wasted hot air in your many many posts? You’re saved, I’m saved, evangelicals are saved, mormons are saved, problem solved. You may now shut up.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:05pm“Really? No, you did not show what you think you showed. Especially since Christ stated this scripture. Which is not remotely consistent with the bs lies you are currently telling.
”
you didn’t post the next verse you lying piece of trash….
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery
which is EXACTLY the same reason Moses gave in GOD’s LAW…
caught you in another lie you POS
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:07pm“Well little joe, since it does not matter what anyone teaches, and that we are all saved anyhow, and not according to what we do, why all the wasted hot air in your many many posts? You’re saved, I’m saved, evangelicals are saved, mormons are saved, problem solved. You may now shut up.”
well little boy (and we all know where you’re small LOL) never said that…another lie on your part….you lying piece of trash.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:08pm“What about the millions that have died that never even heard the name Jesus Christ. Are they saved? If so, why, if not, why not?”
another mormon lie…God doesn’t need us to get people saved…He can speak for himself….
you die once…then judgement no second chance after you die.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:10pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:55pm
“You claim you are saved joe. What saved you that does not save others? It always boils down to you claiming that because you believed (your work) that you were saved.”
talking mental retardation…hey gomer, belief isn’t a work….duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wow]
Sorry, but the scriptures teach that belief, and the thoughts and words that stem from the belief in your heart are works. Again you are wrong.
But since we are all saved, regardless of our works, as long as we believe, according to you confused little fellas, then there is no point to your discussing any of this.
Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
BTW, according to little joe, since these are all works, it does not matter if you murder, steal, false witness or whatever. The sky is the limit. Jesus paid for it. Sin on, brethren, according to joe, you can get away with literal murder.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:10pm“I started reading through the book of mormon, and found it a fairy tale. The person who wrote the book of mormon certainly DID NOT understand Scriptures of the Old Testament and the New Testament, or Israel’s role in history. The book of mormon contradicts the Bible in so many ways. I found so very many mistakes historically that it didn’t pay to read through the entire book of mormon. In my estimation, and not meaning to be harsh, one would have to be pretty ignorant believing what Joseph Smith actually wrote.
”
SO true…but then what do you expect when the founder is a false prophet? look at kmichaels…a liar..smith would be proud!!
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:12pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:58pm
Kmichaels again proves what an incredible liar he is…christ doesn’t give different requirements.]
The context of my post states correctly that Christ gives multiple requirements. And you cherry pick just one. Which makes you a fool.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:15pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:55pm
“You claim you are saved joe. What saved you that does not save others? It always boils down to you claiming that because you believed (your work) that you were saved.”
yeah Christ did cause me to believe…so its not my work…how hard is this you brain-dead moron?? lying for MORONi its what you do.]
Just a minute ago Joe was saying that he chose to believe but it was not a work, now he is changing his tune and saying that it was Christ that caused him to believe, apparently leaving out millions that Christ did not cause to believe.
This is the kind of idiotic circular logic little (the least) joe has been putting out for months.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:20pm[joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:08pm
“What about the millions that have died that never even heard the name Jesus Christ. Are they saved? If so, why, if not, why not?”
another mormon lie…God doesn’t need us to get people saved…He can speak for himself….
you die once…then judgement no second chance after you die.]
Nice avoidance of the question, dimwit, since millions have died that have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ uttered. So, if they must believe on his name to be saved, how does that work? Since they can’t believe on a name that they never heard?
Now watch the retarded circular logic fly from little joe’s mouth.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:23pm“The context of my post states correctly that Christ gives multiple requirements. And you cherry pick just one. Which makes you a fool.”
I don’t cherry pick any of them…you pick which law you want to follow…you play god…hypocrisy much? wow
“Just a minute ago Joe was saying that he chose to believe but it was not a work, now he is changing his tune and saying that it was Christ that caused him to believe, apparently leaving out millions that Christ did not cause to believe.”
no I didn’t post your proof…you cannot….proving once again what a lying piece of trash you are.
and no not everyone is saved…so you’re saying jesus is wrong not saving everyone…wow….you want to take his place and be god. keep dreaming.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:25pm“Sorry, but the scriptures teach that belief, and the thoughts and words that stem from the belief in your heart are works. Again you are wrong.”
post your proof….no surprise you couldn’t….LOL
“BTW, according to little joe, since these are all works, it does not matter if you murder, steal, false witness or whatever. The sky is the limit. Jesus paid for it. Sin on, brethren, according to joe, you can get away with literal murder.”
wow paul answered liars like you long ago….satan doesn’t come up with anything new obviously…
Romans 6:
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
you’re SO out of your league LOL
Report Post »notatoomah
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:56pmWhat a long and useless conversation. Brow beating people with your theology, whatever that might be, never does anything good for either party. Spouting out Bible verses, or BOM verses, or Talmuud verses, or whatever, does no good. You can counter any argument with them, even if it originated from the same book you are using.
If you want to help the other person, pray for them. That’s the most help you can be.
I was raised LDS and converted at 19 to evabgelical “Bible thumper” Christian. But faith is a journey, and you grow on the path. Starting out as a spiritual child, and maturing as you learn and grow closer to God. Once you have matured a good ways, you too will see that what I have said is true.
Report Post »WasteH2OLawyer
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 7:00pmGuys, as good “Christians,” can we please stop all the negative hyperbole? Of course there are going to be differences of opinion and beliefs. But no one is going to be converted to either side through a debate that has de-evolved into name calling.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 7:11pm“Nice avoidance of the question, dimwit, since millions have died that have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ uttered. So, if they must believe on his name to be saved, how does that work? Since they can’t believe on a name that they never heard?”
hey gomer, I already told you several times…God doesn’t need us…your mormon god does….but the Real God of the Universe can communicate with people without our help….
God knows who are His…and loses none of them…if God knows the number of hairs on your head, don’t you think He knows who are his??
your ‘logic’ is pathetic.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 8:05pmJoe;
““And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth” (1 Nephi 14:10).”
That applies to Mormons as well. If one does not follow the will of God, ANYONE, he/she is in apostasy.
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,””
I 100% agree with President Kimball though his books were his thought, NOT Mormon doctrine. You, Joe, continue to conflate two tenets of the Christian faith. One is sola gratia “grace only”. This does not mean there are no works. this means that although you have to do works, you still do not deserve, or merit as the Catholic Church pcorrectly proclaims, salvation. Salvation, therefore is achieved *only* by grace. King Benjamin of the Book of Mormon, wihich is Mormon doctrine, that no matter how much man labors, he is still an “unprofitable servant” before God. And the Book of Mormon clearly teaches that it is by grace and mercy that man is saved. Yes, works are necessary, but it will NOT merit salvation. Grace will.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 8:29pmMary;
“You often take issue with my saying that you believe in Adam-god.”
Two reasons NOT to use Journal of Discourse to show what Mormons believe. 1) Because it is NOT what mormons believe; but what the author of the discourse personally believed on a specific issue at a specific time. All mortal men are entitled to this. Do you really think that the only words Paul ever wrote or idea he ever taught are in the bible? That would be perposterous. Those who were encharged in creating the Bible had to decipher from personal thought of men of God like apostles of Christ from what was divinely revealed to them by God. 2) The vast majority of people, yourself included, do a horrible job in presenting the setting of JOD citations. Of the over 1,000 dicourses Brigham Young gave, only about six of them spoke of Adam-god. And in three of them he himself expressed explicit doubt as to its authenticity and even declared the idea not worthy of preaching. This is vastly different from your presenting this idea as something Brigham Young “preached”.
And if a prophet had a revelation for the Church, he will not reveal it to the members through a newspaper article.
Sorry to hear about your experience of the Book of Mormon. I’ve come much closer to Christ in my life through abiding by its teachings.
Peace in Christ our Lord.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 8:42pm“e. You, Joe, continue to conflate two tenets of the Christian faith. One is sola gratia “grace only”. This does not mean there are no works. this means that although you have to do works, you still do not deserve,”
really now, so which works, and how many…oh you’ll tell me baptism…but of course the thief on the cross was not baptized…and Paul was not sent to baptize…did Jesus baptize anyone? so its not that important.
all those verses I posted early about salvation through faith and grace…no works…you just ignore them…blithely assuming that what Jesus did isn’t good enough, and you have to add your works…so you can boast before God…..the sin of pride….the original sin…..Satan thought he’d be a god too…he found out differently…
Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
not from yourselves….you just can’t STAND that can you? your pride just won’t allow you to acknowlege that Jesus did it all..and all to Him I owe….you want to boast before God…NO ONE, and nothing, will boast before God..
you should repent of your pride, may God have mercy on your soul.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 8:49pmSome comments:
“Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—”
QUESTION: Is this translation better or more accurate than the King James Version? ” 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
“I have attended services at many churches in my life and have found that the Mormon’s love Christ and believe they are following his beliefs every bit as much as any other church I have attended”. I agree. This does make a Mormon shake his head when he’s told that he is not Christian, nor of the Christian faith. Thanks, Veryconcerned.
“It is like Mitt said respecting other faiths and civility are Christian virtues also.” Ditto.
“where did He say keep all the commandments? ”
Kmichaels Mat. 2:15 scripture a mere two posts above this citation would answer that. And we can play, fill in the blank, ‘if ye love me _______ _____ _____________________________” (three wods).
“then you ‘sir’ are a hypocrite….mormons do not follow all the OT laws…obviously. ”
Specious accusation. Mormons keep the laws of the Old Testament far more than Joe realizes. To those which they do not, like eating pork, there’s no need to. Such laws have been fulfilled and thus no need to keep. But Joe knows this.
(con’t)
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 8:56pmKing james says the same thing…
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
“Specious accusation. Mormons keep the laws of the Old Testament far more than Joe realizes. To those which they do not, like eating pork, there’s no need to. Such laws have been fulfilled and thus no need to keep. But Joe knows this.”
your brother kmichaels said we had to follow EVERY WORD OF GOD…and every word of the OT law is from God…do you agree, or do you think, as kmichaels does that moses was a false prophet, and what he wrote in the law was not the word of God?
for christians there is no need to fulfill the ceremonial law…but thats not what mormons say…you say fulfill the commandments…which ones? sounds like you get to pick and choose….if you’re going to follow the law, you must uphold all of it…as Paul said.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:05pm(con’t)
“Romans 4:3
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.””
Good for Abraham. What do the sctiptures say? ” 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (James 2). Faith increases and is made “perfect” through works. As happened upon Abraham. Neat, huh? One poster recently did an exemplary job explaining to Joe that the doctrines of faith and works are not contrary; but two different spectrums towards salvation. Joe‘s respons to that poster whas that his posts were too long and so Joe didn’t read them thoroughly. Sad. Mormons believe in faith and works (as do Catholics); Joe doesn’t. It isn’t the Mormons who are negating/rejecting biblical teachings.
“uh huh, the pharisees were VERY concerned about works….and who does that describe today??”
Catholics?
“and gomer, did ya notice the mormons say there rest of christianity is apostate and of the devil?? ”
They say that about themselves as well.
/I’m tired
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:06pm“Mormons keep the laws of the Old Testament far more than Joe realizes.”
do you realize what you are saying? I think not…
galations 3:
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
you rely on your works, I’ll rely on faith.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:22pm“Good for Abraham. What do the sctiptures say? ” 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ”
sigh…how many times does this have to be explained??? it doesn’t have anything to do with salvation…or a requirement of works…james is explaining what true faith is..it leads to works…the works don’t justify us…sigh….
I mean seriously you mormons keep posting the same old verses and twisting them.
Two words are worth introducing here: ascentia and fiducia. Ascentia is the mental assent, the mental acknowledgment of something’s existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. This is the kind of faith that a Christian has in Christ. A Christian, therefore, has fiducia; that is, he has real faith and trust in Christ, not simply an acknowledgment that He lived on earth at one time. Another way to put this is that there are many people in the world who believed that Jesus lived: ascentia. But they do not believe that He is their savior, the one to whom they should look and trust for the forgiveness of their sins.
http://carm.org/are-we-justified-faith-romans-or-works-james
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:24pm“uh huh, the pharisees were VERY concerned about works….and who does that describe today??”
Catholics?”
uh after your new catholic friend ‘by faith’ said that isn’t the case? ok…
“and gomer, did ya notice the mormons say there rest of christianity is apostate and of the devil?? ”
They say that about themselves as well.”
only to mormons who leave the faith…..and to the entire rest of christianity.
you should be tired of trying to uphold the teachings of that false prophet smith.
Report Post »Grey Eagle
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:37pmI don’t think Romney cares if he gets support from Evangelicals or not. However, that would be a bad move on his part. There are several million of them and they vote.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:39pmjoe;
“looks like you are the liar.”
Joe, I’ve been very patient with you and you labelling me a “liar”. It is impossible to have an in telligent conversation if mere disagreements are labelled as such. You are attacking me personally and my faith which are both violations of the terms of use on this website. Also, by labelling others ‘liars” so liberally, you’re only blinding yourself. For example, one post you claimed that The Blaze is censoring you and offending your “freedom of speech”. Nonesense. first off, “freedom of speech” does not apply to private wedsite. you don’t like this one that much, find anther. Second, I myself have expressed to you for inefficient this website is in getting posts published. I have to make a post and then get off this site and come back on ust to make sure my posts always get placed where I want them to be. Many of my own posts simply “disappear” after clicking “Reply”.
Now, I’ve both told you and asked you more than once not call me aliar. I’ll report this post and show the genesis of my contention towards your use of calling me a “liar”. Whatever happens to you is now in The Blaze‘s administration’s hands.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:08pm“Joe, I’ve been very patient with you and you labelling me a “liar”. It is impossible to have an in telligent conversation if mere disagreements are labelled as such. You are attacking me personally and my faith which are both violations of the terms of use on this website
”
looks like those posts are deleted…but you called me a liar first….and so I responded to your accusation…..
so its OK for you to attack me personally…and call me a liar, but not for me to. yeah thats uh fair…
“Now, I’ve both told you and asked you more than once not call me aliar. I’ll report this post and show the genesis of my contention towards your use of calling me a “liar”. Whatever happens to you is now in The Blaze‘s administration’s hands.”
again its OK for you to call me a liar…but not for me to respond in the same way.
I have no doubt about the bias toward mormonism…many of my posts critical of smith or young get deleted….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:08pmoh darren…I’ve been threatened on this web site, by cesium…nothing was done about it…..
we’ll find out if some pigs are more equal than others….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:11pm“I have to make a post and then get off this site and come back on ust to make sure my posts always get placed where I want them to be. Many of my own posts simply “disappear” after clicking “Reply”. ”
that happens to me quite a bit too….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:18pm“Regarding God the Father’s origin? Here you go: http://lds.org/scriptures/tg/father?lang=eng Let me know when you find thwe scripture that says he came from another world and was once a man. That, like infinite regression (which I personally agree with) are ideas, not doctrine, not part of the LDS faith, not part of its worship”
that page shows a bunch of bible verses…it does not explain mormon doctrine…nor does it contradict anything that I have poste….
ok you agree with infinite regression….and you’re a mormon…ok a christian who thought that would not be considered a christian…..that you do and you’re a mormon speaks volumes.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:20pmI found your post…interesting it seemed to disappear and then reappear…hmmm..anyway…
“And KMichael is absolutely correct in that you cite LDS authors with out the slightest clue as to the background or purpose of what they say. And you proclaim it as if it was standard LDS faith. The fact that you contiually do this makes you a liar. Note that I call you such not due to oversight and in no way, shape, or form due to your theology, but to the fact that you’ve been explained the fallaciousness of your statements and yet continue to make them.”
you call me a liar….I disagree and my response was deleted…some pigs are more equal than others….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:53pmoh and darren, I reported your comment calling me a liar…we’ll see if your post is deleted. or if free speech only goes one way.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:21pmJoe;
‘doesn’t have anything to do with salvation…or a requirement of works…james is explaining what true faith is..it leads to works…the works don’t justify us…sigh….”
As James taught, faith does lead to works and faith is “perfected” by works. Without works, faith is dead; and I d not think dead faith is something to have place hope upon. It’s cyclical. Faith leads to works and works leads to more faith. You cannot expect one to increase without the other. If you read what was explained to you on a different thread, they are two ends of the same goal: salvaton through Christ.
“you rely on your works, I’ll rely on faith.”
We both rely on grace. I believe in both works and faith for grace to be granted upon me by God’s mercy. I do not exclude one and embrace the other. I embrace both.
“uh after your new catholic friend ‘by faith’ said that isn’t the case? ok…”
as i recall it, By Faith called you out on your rudeness and so you retaliated back at him. During the course of your debate you told him he was Mormon in that his moniker (“By Faith”) denies his faith which you thought was Mormonism. H=You then denounced his God as even existing. He corrected you in that he was Catholic; not Mormon, then you accused him of lying though I do not think you used the actual word “liar”. I aksed about his belief in the Trinity and he affirmed. I do not recall him saying Catholics do not believe in works. (con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:31pm(con’t);
If anything it was your own supposition that By Faith does not believe in works. I may be wrong and I do not recall the name of the thread this all happened on so I’m unable to look at it. Anyhow, Catholics ABSOLUTELY believe in both faith, works, and salvation by grace only. So do Mormons.
“only to mormons who leave the faith…..”
Nope. You can be a fully fledged Mormon and still be considered an apostate; especially to the Lord. Preach the necessity of polygamy, beating/neglecting your spouse and/or children, etc, and that’ll be considered apostate. Now, there are many things which one may personally believe which do not affect one’s standing in the Church although what they believe may not be in harmony with the Church. But before the Lord, that person will be held accountable and it could very well be that the Lord decides such is an apostate. That’s possible. My point is that the scripture which teaches there are only two churches applies to all individuals; not just organized churches.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:48pm(con’t)
“looks like those posts are deleted…” It does and that’s unfortunate I think.
“but you called me a liar first….” And so, like an infant, you feel justified to call me one back? This is your constant MO.
“and so I responded to your accusation…..” I knew why you said what you said but here’s the big difference: I specified that you know better as to what is not Mormon doctrine and yet you continue to present what you know is not Mormon doctrine as Mormon doctrine. At times when I know another person knows better yet continues in his chosen falsehoods I do lable a liar. You, however, lable a liar to mere disagreements. This began with you calling me a liar over mere disagreements on theology.
“we’ll find out if some pigs are more equal than others….” Thanks. Charity, you know.
“that page shows a bunch of bible verses…it does not explain mormon doctrine…nor does it contradict anything that I have poste….” Yes, it’s scripture AND doctrine. Use the search engine if you like. Stop looking for contradictions and look for affirmations that Mormons officially believe in God the Father’s infinite regression. There is none that I know of. It is just and idea.
“ok a christian who thought that would not be considered a christian”. One is not a Christian for an idea or for doctrine?
“I reported your comment calling me a liar”. You’re bent on a “he did it first” demeanor.
And, no ,that wasn’t my origin
Report Post »City-zen
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 1:45amJoel1234
The others on this thread appear to accept the scriptures that you are presenting but you seem to dismiss or ignore the ones they are presenting. Thus your argument fails in that you are unable to refute the need for works. Indeed we cannot be saved by works alone, this is clear in the scriptures. Believing we would be saved by works would induce the sin of pride and we fail to be perfect in our works because of our pride.
The scriptures clearly emphasize the neccessity of faith, good works, and the grace of God all being in place together. One or two of these are not sufficient but all three must be in effect for salvation and eternal life.
Joel1234… If you ignore scripture then you deny scripture then you deny God. Do you dare?
Revelations 2:2,5,9,13,19,23,26 and 3:1,8,15 and 9:20 and 14:13 and 20:12,13 and 22:12
And finally, the bitterness and vile nature of your tone and language is not of the Holy Spirit therefore is not of God.
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 3:39am@ Joe
Joe you don’t need to be afraid. Many times in the scriptures the Lord tells us not to fear, but rather to have faith in Him and His purposes (for example, see Isaiah 41:13 ; Mark 5:36 ; D&C 6:34–36 ). When we act in fear we often make mistakes, but when we act in faith we have the strength to accomplish much more than we could on our own. Do you remember how fear or faith is demonstrated in the stories in Matthew 14 and how fear or faith affected the people involved?
President Howard W. Hunter told the story found in Matthew 14:22–33 and then said:
“It is my firm belief that if as individual people, as families, communities, and nations, we could, like Peter, fix our eyes on Jesus, we too might walk triumphantly over the swelling waves of disbelief and remain unterrified amid the rising winds of doubt. But if we turn away our eyes from him in whom we must believe, as it is so easy to do and the world is so much tempted to do, if we look to the power and fury of those terrible and destructive elements around us rather than to him who can help and save us, then we shall inevitably sink in a sea of conflict and sorrow and despair.”
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 3:41amCont…
“At such times when we feel the floods are threatening to drown us and the deep is going to swallow up the tossed vessel of our faith, I pray we may always hear amid the storm and the darkness that sweet utterance of the Savior of the world: ‘Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid’ ( Matthew 14:27 )” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1992, 24; or Ensign, Nov. 1992,19 ).
What really stands out to me in this chapter is Peter’s response, when he learned that it was the Lord who was upon the water, he said: “Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.” That verse brings me great joy, because it reveals to me that Peter was not only saved by grace, but that he was changed by grace also. He had such faith and love for his Savior that he wanted to DO everything his Lord did, even if it was considered impossible. So what then is grace? Grace is the enabling power of the Atonement. It is the power that allows us to do things that are beyond us. If we truly believe in Christ and that his grace has saved us, wouldn’t that also change us? And if so wouldn’t we then, like Peter, want to do all that we have seen our Lord and Master do? Joe have you been changed by grace?
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 4:49am@Joe
Brother you fail to understand that the law of the Old Testament was fulfilled through Christ. Roman 7 contains Paul’s teachings that the law of Moses became unnecessary after Jesus Christ fulfilled the law of Moses and brought the gospel.
Also perceiving that some of the Nephites were confused concerning the law of Moses as it pertained to Him, Jesus gave this instruction: “. . . Marvel not that I said unto you that old things had passed away, and that all things had become new. Behold, I say unto you that the law is fulfilled that was given unto Moses.” (3 Ne. 15:3-4.) Indeed, the law of Moses testified of Christ, as Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained in A New Witness for the Articles of Faith (pp. 115-116):
“Though the law of Moses was given of God to his people; though it was of divine origin and had divine approval in all its parts and ramifications; though it was the highest system of worship ever had on earth, except the fullness of the gospel itself – yet salvation did not come by the law alone. Salvation then and now and always is in Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The whole purpose of the Mosaic system was to testify of Christ and His atonement and to prepare men to receive the fullness of the gospel.”
Cont…
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 4:50amCont..
Abinadi (a prophet of the Book of Mormon) said: “Salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people . . . they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.” The law of Moses, as with all things in the gospel itself, had efficacy, virtue and force because of the Atonement.
So then why was the law given? Abinadi answers: “It was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God; therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him. But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.” Only part of the people understood this; only part knew that “there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.” (Mosiah 13:28-32.) Truly, the Lord gave his people “many signs, and wonders, and types, and shadows . . . concerning his coming,” and taught them “that the law of Moses availeth nothing except it were through the atonement of his blood.” (Mosiah 3:15.)”
Cont..
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 4:56amCont..
Sacrificial offerings were of four general kinds – burnt offerings, sin offerings, trespass offerings and peace offerings, which typified the Atonement, Elder McConkie explained. “So also did the yearly entrance of the high priest into the Holy of Holies – signifying Israel’s entrance into the divine presence if true and faithful – and the annual sacrifice of the scapegoat, upon which all the sins of the people were placed.”
Such among all else, was the law of the Lord until He came who said: “I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled. . . . Behold I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.” (3 Ne. 15:5, 9.) After He came and offered Himself as the Lamb of God, other similitudes and types were to be used to center our attention in His atoning sacrifice and the blessings that flow from it.
You probably won’t, but I’ll still recommend you read an address given by Stephen E. Robinson entitled: The Law after Christ. http://lds.org/ensign/1983/09/the-law-after-christ?lang=eng It will further shed more light on the subject regarding of the law of Moses and its fulfillment through Christ.
Joe I’ll try to answer more of your questions later, till then i’ll keep you in my prayers.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 7:58am“As James taught, faith does lead to works and faith is “perfected” by works. Without works, faith is dead; and I d not think dead faith is something to have place hope upon.”
hate to tell you but if you have saving faith, the works just flow from you, you don’t have to try….its known as a conversion experience…you wouldn’t understand, obviously. the works don’t save you….as the multiple scripture verses I posted make clear…
as far as ‘by faith’ I recall he started of rather rude to me…..but of course thats OK for our censors, you can call me a liar, but I can’t call you one…..
beck’s hypocrisy is stunning, he’s lost a listener..
““but you called me a liar first….” And so, like an infant, you feel justified to call me one back? This is your constant MO.”
I feel justified to call you a liar, because you lied about what I said…you said the mormon scripture I posted was a lie…and my repeated use of it makes me a liar….not a chance…the things I post from mormons are true, you have been unable to post any verses that refute it…and you even admitted to what I posted is true…..with your inifinite regression….
so you can babble on and on about faith and works…but the mormon god does not exist…your god is not the god of the bible…you have faith in nothing, and you work for nothing.
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 8:39am@joe You are causing contention for contentions sake. Do you do this as a matter of course?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 8:47am“Timothy_Reid
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 8:39am
@joe You are causing contention for contentions sake. Do you do this as a matter of course?
”
interesting how *I* cause contention but mormons NEVER cause contention…hypocrisy much?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 8:51amCity-zen
oh so my posts are bitter an vile…yet the moroms posts never are….the hypocrisy is stunning.
oh and you contradict yourself, first you say….
“Believing we would be saved by works would induce the sin of pride and we fail to be perfect in our works because of our pride.”
and then you say….
“The scriptures clearly emphasize the neccessity of faith, good works, and the grace of God all being in place together. One or two of these are not sufficient but all three must be in effect for salvation and eternal life.
”
so you’re saying we need works…..and in the previous sentence you called works pride….sounds like you to boast before God about your good works.
you may want to check out ephesians 2:8-9 do you dare?
the sin of pride, the original sin, you should repent.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 9:02amoh and darren, if you had any integrity you would apologize for calling me a liar. I have not lied about mormons or mormon doctrine, and you have confirmed that. but I know you won’t…..integrity isn’t something the mormon god is very big on.
“That’s possible. My point is that the scripture which teaches there are only two churches applies to all individuals; not just organized churches. ”
the lengths you go to justify mormon doctrine is just amazing….clearly the mormons think the rest of christians are apostate…and all your diversions are meaningless…
again YOU HAVE NOT CONTRADICTED ANY MORMON VERSES I POSTED.
@lux:
“Brother you fail to understand that the law of the Old Testament was fulfilled through Christ. Roman 7 contains Paul’s teachings that the law of Moses became unnecessary after Jesus Christ fulfilled the law of Moses and brought the gospel”
uh yeah I do understand that…I’m not the one trying to keep the law…mormons are.
and one of your fellow mormons tried to tell me that mose‘s law is not God’s law…
you mormons are all over the map……I can point you to a denomination’s page that clearly shows their beliefs…mormons have been unable to do that…..the best I got was a page of quotes from scripture….no doctrinal statement….
but the bottom line is the mormon god does not exist, your god is no the god of the bible…so your faith is vain, and your works are in vain.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 10:55amJoe;
My calling you a liar was in assive voice. “This would make you a liar” is what I said. You’re the one who calls people “a liar”. You cite various sources of what LDS leaders have said. You continue do so aftter you have been told, and not just by me, that they are NOT mormon doctrine. Your reaction to me has been ourtrageous if not silly. “Because you say so,” has been your retort. I’ve oferred you on a few occasions to explain how Mormon doctrine is created and how the teachings you cite become part of official Mormon doctrine. All you need to do is ask; yet I’ve still not notice your asking. This to me says you’re not genuinely interested in learning the process by which you seem to know so well yet err when you apply it. When you delibrately present, as you have regarding what Mormons believe, something which is fallacious as though it were fact after you have been told that your presentation is NOT the foundation, by your own standards, you’re aliar. But, let me remind you I said so in a passive voice. I did so out of respect.
The fact that you previously found no reference to the origin of God the Father was my point. There is none. Here’s what the LDS officially believe regarding where God the Father “came from”:
(cont)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 10:59amcon’t)
http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/god?lang=eng&letter=g That’s the LDS Bible Dictionary. No word on where god the Father originated. http://lds.org/scriptures/tg?lang=eng&letter=g That’s a general search on the LDS website. No mention as to where God the Father originated. http://lds.org/scriptures/tg/god-creator?lang=eng That’s on “God, Creator”. No mention as to where God the Father came from. So, in official LDS doctrine, God the Father was always there. Any reference to where he personally came from are by mere implication and personal ideas, not “what Mormons believe”. By your standard Lutherans believe that Jewish synagogues should be burned to the ground. Yet it’s so obvious as to how absurd that accusation would be. By your standard, the Catholic Church is gearing up to endorse a world central bank yet I know for certain you do not think that. Yet that would equally be absurd. Apply the same standard to the LDS Church as you would any other church.
***
As per my anterior post, it should say “passive voice”; not “assive voice” though I‘m sure you’d agree with the way it was written. ;>)
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 11:10am“My calling you a liar was in assive voice. “This would make you a liar” is what I said. You’re the one who calls people “a liar”.
uh yeah whatever…
You cite various sources of what LDS leaders have said. You continue do so aftter you have been told, and not just by me, that they are NOT mormon doctrine.”
ok but you haven’t shown me any mormon doctrine that contradicts what I post.
“http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/god?lang=eng&letter=g That’s the LDS Bible Dictionary. No word on where god the Father originated. http://lds.org/scriptures/tg?lang=eng&letter=g That’s a general search on the LDS website. No mention as to where God the Father originated. ”
but I post words from people like smith, and Orson Pratt, brigham young…these are apostles and prophets of your church….so are you calling them liars?
and you agree with them…for example…
God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).
you can say its not ‘official’ mormon doctrine…but you believe it, as did they…so until you show me ‘official’ mormon doctrine that contradicts this, I’m going with what your prophets, apostles, etc say.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 11:13am“By your standard Lutherans believe that Jewish synagogues should be burned to the ground. Yet it’s so obvious as to how absurd that accusation would be. By your standard, the Catholic Church is gearing up to endorse a world central bank yet I know for certain you do not think that. Yet that would equally be absurd. Apply the same standard to the LDS Church as you would any other church.”
here is lutheran doctrine…
http://www.lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=415
you can open the PDF…here’s (a part) of what it says about God…
4. On the basis of the Holy Scriptures we teach the sublime article of the Holy Trinity; that is,
we teach that the one true God, Deut. 6:4; 1 Cor. 8:4, is the Father and the Son and the Holy
Ghost, three distinct persons, but of one and the same divine essence, equal in power, equal
in eternity, equal in majesty, because each person possesses the one divine essence entire,
Col. 2:9, Matt. 28:19. We hold that all teachers and communions that deny the doctrine of the
Holy Trinity are outside the pale of the Christian Church
give me that with the mormon church then…apparently you cannot.
you other charges are facetious.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 11:27am“So, in official LDS doctrine, God the Father was always there”
no actually in your office doctrine it says nothing about the Father being Eternal…it does say the Father had a body of flesh and bones….so it agrees with what I posted…
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s…” (D&C 130:22).
.God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
so your god is NOT eternal…and quote “is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God”
you are polytheistic, having multiple gods. whereas the God of the Bible is ONE.
“All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim.”
so you are saying Jesus is a created being…just as I have posted…
A.The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
B.Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
and it also confirms what I posted about the trinity…
A.The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
so you have proven that the things I post about the mormons are true.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 11:29am“but I post words from people like smith, and Orson Pratt, brigham young…these are apostles and prophets of your church….so are you calling them liars? ”
Nope. That’s what you do. You post words from smith and some that are written by others saying what smth said. If you post Smith’s words, were they from God to preach to man or his own thoughts. Are the words accurate? King Follett’s Dicourse is a prime example. What we have today was written by thrird parties and altered over time. How accurate is that? For that alone the LDS Church would 99% probabably NEVER adopt it as doctrine. We simply do not know enough to make that determination. So its best represented as his own thoughts. Not a manifestation from God to a prophet for the world to believe. And no LDS doctrine backs up much of what he spoke about. Again, it‘s best represented as Smith’s thoughts assuming the current report is accurate. Much can be the same for “History of the church”. What you read could be from what someone heard from someone else decades after Joseph Smith died. And is what Smith taught his own thoughts or to be considered doctrine. You make no distinction.
Ditto for Brigham Young‘s and pratt’s discourses.
JUST.ASK.HOW.THE.LDS.CHURCH.DECLARES.IT’S.DOCTRINES. It’s that easy, Joe. The longer you forlorn your asking the more it seems you do not want to understand, only denounce.
(con’t)
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 11:30am“Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim”
this statement proves that mormons think Jesus is a created being…not eternal…there is nothing in your post about God being eternal….so obviously he is not.
again thanks for confirming all the quotes from mormons that you say are not doctrine, really are.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 11:33am“Nope. That’s what you do. You post words from smith and some that are written by others saying what smth said. If you post Smith’s words, were they from God to preach to man or his own thoughts”
uh NOPE…the things I posted from smith are accurate and true…you have not posted anything to prove they are false….his false prophecies you’ve tried to explain away…the you, or joel has posted, confirm that my quotes are accurate.
and what you posted as doctrine confirms my quotes are accurate and reflect offical mormon doctrine.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 12:58pmJioe;
My post isn’t showing here and I tried three times. Go to the last page.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 1:17pmJoe (con’t)
“here is lutheran doctrine…”
Correct, that is Lutheran doctrine. A good representation as to what they officially believe. Here’s what Lutherans do NOT believe.
“First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians.”
UPDATE: I think it was the link I used (may have been banned) which prevented this getting posted. So Google “Martin Luther and the Jews”
And, no, it’s not facetious. I was quite serious when I said that your standard would declare that since the leader of the Lutheran movement than those that follow the movement would also believe such vile. I, however, have no problem saying that this is NOT Lutheran doctrine. Furthermore, it is obvious that this was Martin Luther’s own thoughts and therefore not part of the Lutheran faith. Despite the fact that Luther openly advocated acting on burning the synagogues.
This courtesy which I apply to all churches and faiths is something utterly lacking wen you speak of Mormonism.
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 2:03pm@joe So…………that’s a yes then? I’m sorry I missed the part where you answered the question….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 2:09pm“My post isn’t showing here and I tried three times. Go to the last page”
didn’t see any new posts on the last page…..
“UPDATE: I think it was the link I used (may have been banned) which prevented this getting posted. So Google “Martin Luther and the Jews””
I know luther was a notorious anti-semite…
but the whole point is you showed me OFFICIAL MORMON DOCTRINE…and it agrees with what I posted…what have I posted disagrees with official mormon doctrine? please be specific.
and if you say ‘god didn’t live on another planet’ well your father god has flesh and bones…so its rather obvious he lived somewhere….and given your infinite regression of gods, it makes perfect sense….
what you posted confirms the things I posted….I really don’t know why you are trying to continue this line of reasoning……
If I would have posted something from a mormon saying the trinity is true, then that would be out of line with mormon doctrine, but I haven’t.
so back to the bottom line….the mormon god is not the God of the Bible…by your own official doctrine. so your faith is in vain, because the object of your faith does not exist…..your works are in vain…because the one you think will judge those works does not exist.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 2:13pmdarren: comparing luther to smith is not quite accurate…luther never claimed to be a prophet.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 2:15pm“imothy_Reid
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 2:03pm
@joe So…………that’s a yes then? I’m sorry I missed the part where you answered the question….
”
yes I will contend for the historic christian faith.
if that offends you, too bad. Paul sure stirred things up, didn’t he now? (not that I could fill his sandals)
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 2:29pmlets review the mormon god vs. the christian God.
“We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead:”
there is ONE GOD…Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
“latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone”
Jesus has a physical body, now since HE took on a human nature, but the father does not…
John 4: 24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
“, Elohim. All mankind are his children”
we are not his literal children…we have been adopted…
Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
“Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim”
Jesus is not created…rather eternal.
revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
different gods, different gospel…mormonism is not christian.
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 3:38pm@joe very clever way to avoid the question but you are talking semantics. You still haven’t answered the question,
You are causing contention for contentions sake, is this normal behavior for you?
This question only requires a yes or a no, anything more is simply a way to avoid answering it. Please feel free to actually answer the question any time you’d like.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 3:42pm“You are causing contention for contentions sake, is this normal behavior for you? ”
do you really want to know what I think of your opinion? no you really don’t LOL
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 3:43pm“Timothy_Reid”
here you can answer my question…why are you being such a twit? is this normal for you?
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 4:16pm@joe lol, well now you’re name calling and making inuendos but still not answering the question.
No, I’m not a twit. Thank you for asking.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 5:11pm“luther never claimed to be a prophet”
Phew!!! Luther was a great man though. I think he very much followed the Spirit of the Lord to reform the Church. Joseph Smith followed the Spirit to restore the Church.
“but the whole point is you showed me OFFICIAL MORMON DOCTRINE…and it agrees with what I posted” When it is in accordance with Mormon doctrine, yes. However, when you cite prophesies supposedly made by Joseph Smith regarding Jesus’ Second Coming, it is NOT Mormon doctrine for Mormon doctrine shows no such prophecy.
“no actually in your office doctrine it says nothing about the Father being Eternal…” How do you conclude that after showing you that it was God the Father (Elohim) “in the beginning”?
“and if you say ‘god didn’t live on another planet’ well your father god has flesh and bones…” So does yours. How it happened according to Mormon doctrine is unknown. Point being, the Father used to be on a another planet is by speculation NOT doctrine.
“we are not his literal children” Yes we are. There’s no doubt there were divine beings kniown as “sons of God” since the foundation of the world. Some scriptures interpret this as angels and that the meaning of angel is that there are orther beings besides us that are God’s sons. Being adopted as sons of God is part of our divinization in Christ. We may do so because as the Father‘s literal children we have that potential though we need God’s grace.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 6:06pm“Phew!!! Luther was a great man though. I think he very much followed the Spirit of the Lord to reform the Church. Joseph Smith followed the Spirit to restore the Church.
”
the church didn’t restoring. luther didn‘t ’restore’ the church…he reformed it..the reformation…Luther kept to the historic christian faith…the trinity, etc…he didn’t add a new book….especially one that contradicts the historic christian faith.
“However, when you cite prophesies supposedly made by Joseph Smith regarding Jesus’ Second Coming, it is NOT Mormon doctrine for Mormon doctrine shows no such prophecy.”
well of course its not official mormon doctrine its a FALSE PROPHECY..they’re running away from it as fast as possible…smith said it…he claimed to be a prophet…he failed the test…and to be a real prophet of God you have to 100% all the time, every time.
“How do you conclude that after showing you that it was God the Father (Elohim) “in the beginning”? ”
in the beginning of WHAT? the world? the real God of the bible has no beginning, no end….
“So does yours. How it happened according to Mormon doctrine is unknown. ”
post your scripture from the bible…you cannot….I can’t even imagine what verse you could twist to show that…this should be good…
“Point being, the Father used to be on a another planet is by speculation NOT doctrine. ”
ok, I won’t use that anymore…doesn’t lessen my point at all….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 6:13pm“Yes we are. There’s no doubt there were divine beings kniown as “sons of God” since the foundation of the world. Some scriptures interpret this as angels and that the meaning of angel is that there are orther beings besides us that are God’s sons. Being adopted as sons of God is part of our divinization in Christ. We may do so because as the Father‘s literal children we have that potential though we need God’s grace.”
those are angels…since satan was numbered among them…they will never be gods. they will be judged by the saints…so you can call them ‘sons of god’ but they are not gods.
again post your bible verse that says we are literally God’s children..and I have to assume that the mormon god had sex with a female divinity to have these children…given the whole polygamy doctrine…this is clearly unbiblical.
there is no bible verse indicating pre-existence of human spirits…God knows us from the foundation of the world..but He knows the end from the beginning…and all the details in between…He knows the future…He IS the future….
and you do know that the same Jesus who saves, also tosses people into hell, right? He’s the judge of the world…and at the great white throne He has no difficulty tossing people into the lake of fire, along with the fallen angels….it is hard to imagine throwing your literal children into hell…..
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 6:45pm“5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. ” (Jeremiah 1). I guess it could be that God sanctified Jeremiah and ordained him to be a prophet beven before Jeremiah actually existed but to me it makes more sense that God sanctified and ordained Jeremiah after Jeremiah existed. “Before [God] formed [him] in the belly”.
“Historically the story is simply this: belief in the premortal existence of the soul was dropped from Christianity in A.D. 553 by an edict known as the Anathemas against Origen, promulgated by the Roman emperor Justinian. The Pope consented under extreme duress. [Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, eds., Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, vol. XIV (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1956), p. 320; cf. New Catholic Encyclopedia, 17 vols. (New York: McGraw-Hill Book Co., 1967), 8:96-101; 10:771-73; 14:145.] ”
hmmmm….
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Relationships.shtml#premortal
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 6:59pm“given the whole polygamy doctrine…this is clearly unbiblical”
God having sex is not in Mormon doctrine neither. It is, however, in a supposed joke Martin Luther made while drunk. Does that count?
“God is spirit”. Great, “God is love” also. Does that mean he’s to be defined as “just” ;love? Joe and Darren are also spirit. Even you Joe believe that Jesus has a body of flesh and bone. Since Jesus is seen as one person of the same being as the Father, why do you contend with Mormons for saying that God has a body of flesh and bone? That seems inconsitent.
Now, let me ask you. The only differencereally between the Holy Trinity and the Mormon concept ofthe Godhead is homoousious or “same substance”. Can you show me in the Bible where the Father and the Son are homoousious? Without this one proclaimed “truth’ in the Nicene Creed, the entire concept of the Holy Trinity significantly, if not completely, falls apart. In other words, without this philosophy of man, there is no Holy Trinity but biblically there are polytheistic beings.
Now, for a bonus: “Many in first century Palestine retained a world view derived from the more ancient religion of Israel, in which there was a High God and several Sons of God, one of whom was Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel.”
http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/GreatAngel.htm
(And she does believe in the Trinity but, wow, very interesting)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 7:01pmJoe;
I’ll check back once, maybe twice and then I think I’ll be done with this thread.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 9:24pm“luther didn‘t ’restore’ the church…he reformed it..the reformation…” Yup. that’s exactly what I said.
“he didn’t add a new book….especially one that contradicts the historic christian faith” That means Luther‘s reformation didn’t go far enough. Or, perhaps it went as far as his person insights would take it.
“well of course its not official mormon doctrine its a FALSE PROPHECY” No, it’s a prophecy he never made.
“Be specifi” OK – “God the Father had a Father” – That’s for starters. You constantly post things like that which do not reflect “what Mormons believe” for they are not in Mormon doctrine.
“The beginning of what” (typed in myself)? Ummm, the beginning of whenever the “beginning ” is in Genesis 1 and John 1 say it is.
Here’s another on the gods: “5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)” (1 corinthians 8). Who are these gods and lords many in heaven?
Good night, Joe. I’ve had enough of this thread.
I luvs ya dude.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 9:29pmI forgot verse 6 of 1 corinthians 8: “6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
Notice the change in repositions. All things are of God and by Jesus Christ. that’s very compatible with the belief that the Father created all things through (“by”) Jesus Christ. In other words, that Elohim, the Most High God, created all things through Yahwey, a Son of God.
Good night again, Joe.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 10:00pm““5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. ” (Jeremiah 1). ”
you didn’t quite quote that correctly…why I am not surprised…hmmmm..
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
so this actually negates pre-existence…God formed him in the womb….not as a spirit child…sorry.
“Historically the story is simply this: belief in the premortal existence of the soul was dropped from Christianity in A.D. 553 ”
yeah who cares? selling indulgences is old too…doesn’t mean anything…its not in the bible…end of story.
““God is spirit”. Great, “God is love” also. Does that mean he’s to be defined as “just” ;love? Joe and Darren are also spirit. Even you Joe believe that Jesus has a body of flesh and bone. Since Jesus is seen as one person of the same being as the Father, why do you contend with Mormons for saying that God has a body of flesh and bone? That seems inconsitent.”
wow what a reach….I knew you’d come up with some stretch….the Holy Spirit Is eternal God…do you think He has a body??? so why does the father have to have a body? Jesus became Human, when did the Father??
doesn’t even pass the smell test….wow.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 10:09pm“Now, let me ask you. The only differencereally between the Holy Trinity and the Mormon concept ofthe Godhead is homoousious or “same substance”.”
no not same ‘substance’ ONE GOD….not 3….3 persons…ONE GOD…how hard is this??
“Can you show me in the Bible where the Father and the Son are homoousious? ”
oh more BS about the nicene creed…sigh…get off the nicene creed…the trinity predates the nicene creed your point is idiotic.
its real simple even you should be able to get it….the Father is God…the Son is God…the Holy Spirit is God…and there is ONE GOD…thats it…period end of story. you have 3 gods…you’re NOT CHRISTIAN…get it??
stop trying to tell us what our creed should be….who the hell do you think you are? some little cult started by a false prophet thinks you can tell the rest of christianity what our docrtrine should be?? and you have the arrogance to say you’re christian?? the arrogance of you would-be gods.
“Without this one proclaimed “truth’ in the Nicene Creed, the entire concept of the Holy Trinity significantly, if not completely, falls apart”
this is so much BS…look for the words ONE GOD in the bible…you’ll find it countless times,…..
I really don’t care if you have 3 gods…just like I don’t really care about allah…stop trying to pass of the lie that mormons are christians…you are not..and never will be.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 10:13pm“:well of course its not official mormon doctrine its a FALSE PROPHECY” No, it’s a prophecy he never made. ”
you ‘sir’ are a liar.
and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189). See context. i.Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived
just like his false prophecy about building the temple in MO..
Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed.” (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.)
a LIE.
just like his lie about the civil war..
and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations,” (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3).
FALSE PROPHET.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 10:17pm“God the Father had a Father” – That’s for starters. You constantly post things like that which do not reflect “what Mormons believe” for they are not in Mormon doctrine. ”
you believe that…and you’re a mormon. says it all.
“The beginning of what” (typed in myself)? Ummm, the beginning of whenever the “beginning ” is in Genesis 1 and John 1 say it is. ”
your god had a beginning, the real God did not. and you believe your false god had a beginning.
Here’s another on the gods: “5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)” (1 corinthians 8). Who are these gods and lords many in heaven?
wow the bible acknowledges there were false gods…wow shazam…and you forget the next verse….
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God,
there is but ONE GOD…..
its rather obvious you are trying to be deceptive.
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 26, 2011 at 4:20amJoe, it’s my hope that you’ll one day be changed by grace, that you will let go of the hate and anger that shrouds you in darkness and accept the true teachings of Jesus Christ. The Lord tells us, “That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day” (D&C 50:24).
Those who do not have this light ever struggle with disbelief. They cannot understand the things of God because their souls have little light. On the other hand, as our souls become filled with light, we begin to understand clearly things that once were dark.
Satan is that wicked one who comes and takes away light and truth from the children of men through their disobedience and because of the traditions of their fathers. But the Lord has commanded us to bring up our children in light and truth. (See D&C 93:39–40.) The opposite of light is darkness, and the opposite of truth is falsehood.
I believe the admonitions of the prophet Moroni are quite important for us to understand as he tells us to take heed “that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.”
Cont..
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 26, 2011 at 4:21am“For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
“But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.” (Moro. 7:14–17.)
It appears to me that Satan and those who follow him are on the road to losing whatever degree of light and truth they have and are approaching a similar limit of darkness and cold where all joy and happiness cease.
Cont..
Report Post »Lux
Posted on October 26, 2011 at 4:22amCont..
Now, there are those, like Joe, who believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is just another church. But I testify to you in all earnestness that this Church was divinely founded. It is not just another church. It is the Church of Jesus Christ. The gospel doctrine it teaches is the divine word of God. It is light. It is truth. To ignore it or treat it as just another religious philosophy is one of the greatest mistakes a person can make. This doctrine I have shared with you is the light and truth I have received to strengthen my own witness, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 26, 2011 at 9:56am“Joe, it’s my hope that you’ll one day be changed by grace, that you will let go of the hate and anger that shrouds you in darkness and accept the true teachings of Jesus Christ.”
lux, there is no hate on my part, who are you to judge me? lets see the mormon church says ONLY they have the ‘true’ teachings of jesus…..right….the rest of us have been wrong for 1,800 years…God just couldn’t set things straight without the help of a false prophet….do you realize how delusional this sounds?
the mormon god is not the God of the bible…..I really don’t care what god you wish to worship, only that you deceptively call yourselves christian, when its abundantly clear that mormons are not christian.
“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; ”
no sorry, thats not true….The Holy Spirit only indwells those who are HIs.
you seem like a very nice guy/girl, I don’t know which, why would you follow the teachings of a known false prophet? why would you reject the historic christian faith, which has stood the test of time, for a heretical cult? I will stand with the God of my fathers…the ONE God of the Bible.
you have chosen to serve false gods.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 26, 2011 at 10:05am“Now, there are those, like Joe, who believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is just another church. But I testify to you in all earnestness that this Church was divinely founded. It is not just another church. It is the Church of Jesus Christ”
no it was not divinely founded…God doesn’t use false prophets…and He doesn’t contradict Himself….and He’s not a racist who would deny the priesthood to black people, nor does He abuse women with polygamy…He made Adam and Eve…not Adam, Eve, Lisa, Jeanne, etc….
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on October 26, 2011 at 12:57pm@joe are you ever going to answer the question? Qui tacet consentire videtur.
Report Post »CR11
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:59pmCome on Iowa…I,m hearing that a guy named Bob V.P runs the state. His religion followers will not allow Mitt to ever win in the state of Iowa! Back off somewhat and allow a religion you are unfamiliar with to speak instead of freaking out!
Report Post »teamarcheson
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:39pmRomney should switch parties.
He is really a RINO and Democrats may be looking for a good Democrat like Romney to run against Obama in the DNC primary.
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:19pmHe should skip Michigan too… his father “left” a bad taste here!
Report Post »Chappy123
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:46pm@ teamarcheson,
Report Post »BINGO!
Rinomey needs to run on the blue ticket!
slr4528
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:49pmRomney is just as conservative as Gingrich and more conservative than Perry. Bachman is the most conservative in the entire group.
Report Post »jzs
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 9:32pmActually teamarcheson, democrats would rather run against Tea Party candidates, based on the perception that TP views are too extreme for the average person. I don’t think the average person sees how the TP is going to help them. Romney will win the nomination and has the “protest vote” locked up. Not sure about other voters.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 9:43pmteamarchenson;
While I definitely have reservations and concerns about mitt, he’d go nowhere as a Democrat. Overall he’s way too conservative for them. And I say this despite his belief in man made global warming, his tough regulations on carbon emissions and with Romneycare.
Report Post »TH30PH1LUS
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:11pmAre we electing a Pope or a President? We may not agree on religious doctrines, but we NEED A PRESIDENT who will help us return to a CONSTITUTIONAL government. Restore the power of Congress. End the Fed. Abolish the IRS. End the Dept of Education. Drill for American oil. STOP illegal immigration.
IF the candidate had wacky religious beliefs but used THOSE agendas as a platform – I’d vote for him/her.
ROMNEY – if he doesn’t speak for the issues or is unwilling or unable to deliver, then turn away from him for those reasons.
Report Post »L-man
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:30pmhave you found a pair of the “magic glasses” too ? Ya know I think Romney should work more on being the god of his own universe /after death belief of Mormons / than trying to be pres.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:51pm@TH30PH1LUS Why is the media trying desperately to influence our decision? Who have they ignored and dismissed although they have a steady and growing support base? I recommend that people take a look at all candidates’ Plan. Whether you disagree or agree with the candidate on some things, one thing should be certain, his Plan must make the most sense concerning huge spending cuts, ending welfare programs, not raising taxes, not creating new taxes, ending certain federal agencies and departments (Education, EPA, Energy, etc), slashing funds for other bureaucracies (FDA, etc), limiting the size of the federal workfoce, giving some things back to the States to take care of, and many other TEA Party advocated positions. One should look at his stance on cutting foreign subsidies as we can’t afford to appease the World anymore. His plan’s priority must be to save our economy and keep the US from going bankrupt. Every aspect of the plan must be effective in achieving those goals. His plan must stand out of the crowd and do that which we Conservatives have been demanding for years now.
Report Post »irishman
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:58pmUnfortunately Romney has the stench of the Liberal east coast all over him.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:00pmTwo Face Romney, time to go…
Who Are You Mitt?
youtube.com/watch?v=oJgLXC66ttk
The Real Mitt Romney – More like a Liberal Democrat than a Republican
youtube.com/watch?v=ySBQ2GHLHBs
Mitt Romney Exposed On Rush Limbaugh Show
youtube.com/watch?v=1rbF6Eu3LD0
Mitt Romney is a JFK era Democrat
Report Post »1389AD
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 8:39pmGOP: Reject Mitt Romney or LOSE EVERYTHING!
Report Post »RightPolitically
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:43pmRomney knows that conservatives won’t vote for him in Iowa so he will spend as little time there as he can get away with doing.
Report Post »gogogoff
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:45pmnice try, the bigots won’t vote for him, a poll showed 30% of republicans would not vote for someone, just because they are Mormon.
You now are starting down 30% due to bigots.
Report Post »lylejk
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:09pmI don’t vote for guys that change their minds on the whim of a wet finger in the wind. Romney the RiNO and Perry the Bilderberg will never get my support during the primaries. As for the Presidential Election itself, well, I didn hold my nose tight and voted for McCain so I have experience in that technique; you know, pinch your nose with both hands and pull the lever with you elbow. Still, I’d rather want to vote for someone then have too. Keep on trucking Mr. Cain and prove the talking heads wrong (especially Bill O and Brit Hume). :)
Report Post »jmildred
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:26pmGogogoff is sure wrong about me! And everyone I know. Our opposition to Romney has no more to do with his religion than our opposition to Obama has to do with his race!!
Report Post »Welcome Black Carter
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:55pm” a poll showed 30% of republicans would not vote for someone, just because they are Mormon.
You now are starting down 30% due to bigots.”
Probably true. Don’t know if I would call them biggots though. Some of us would put Mormons in the “cult” category. I put Catholics in the same slot… that’s just me.
Report Post »L-man
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:39pm@ gogogoff the man~Romney believes in a world that had a man Joseph Smith find a pair of “magic glasses” and he alone spelled out a whole belief story. One where when one dies they will be their own God of theirown universe……..PEOPLE , WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE PLEASE!
Report Post »THIS GUY IS SCARY ! to have a underlying faith as this……..geeeeeeeeeeze
but then again I am but one old man with a lot of hindsite
L-man
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:47pmGogogoff are you a bigot if you think that the underlining beliefs of the Mormos are wacked ? the belief that joseph smithh found the magic glasses that only he could read and the write down. That after death each mormon get’s to be a god of his own universe ? I’m a bigot cause I do not believe that fable ? Oh perhaps I should believe in “MAN MADE GLOBAL WARMING ”..Bwahahahahaha
Report Post »Chuck Stein
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:37am@ JMILDRED
Report Post »Looking at the postings, it’s clear that GOGOGOFF was talking about the 30% that include L-MAN.
Drakkhanlord
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:59amwhat people dont understand is that the Party system is a 2 headed snake…we need people who follow the Constitution , not some party bs..
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:33amGood bye Romney!
Do you know Romney’s record?
Report Post »http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBXe3Kvg-qU
kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:39am[Welcome Black Carter
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:55pm
” a poll showed 30% of republicans would not vote for someone, just because they are Mormon.
You now are starting down 30% due to bigots.”
Probably true. Don’t know if I would call them biggots though. Some of us would put Mormons in the “cult” category. I put Catholics in the same slot… that’s just me.]
I put evangelicals in the most confused, most naive, most misinformed most extreme cult category.
Report Post »LibertyGoddess
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 4:21amYou sound like a sore ass loser. You don’t want to see that elections are now won with the moderates and independents. The nation has changed. We don’t have the army of conservatives we used to have.
The “middle” can’t stand the extremes of the left or right. Mitt is the fit to win the general election! Learn to get along. After Mitt is in, fill his cabinet with staunch conservatives and tea party like individuals. We handed Obama his win precisely because of the our own in-fighting last time. Grow up.
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:37pmWhat is so Ironic on here is that you are bashing Romney for attending an event and yet READ the comments on this thread! haha You ask for someone to show up to an event that many of on here rip a religion you have NO UNDERSTANDING of and do not quote from Anti-Mormon sites as I could do that to any of your religions and ask how they came to be founded BUT 99% of the LDS faith do not rip others religions because it is personal to them and we believe in allowing others to worship how they please.
I will say again that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He died for my sins as He did yours and He IS the cornerstone of the LDS faith. So you can quote your little anti-Mormon crap all day long but it will have NO effect on us and only cause those truly seeking Christ’s church the way Jesus established it to seek further into places like LDS.org and find the answers they have been seeking all their lives…so come to think of it go ahead and bash as it draws in the true seekers of knowledge.
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:42pmMeant to say above:
Report Post »What is so Ironic on here is that you are bashing Romney for NOT attending an event
Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:25pmZengaPA65
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:42pm
Go play with your holy underwear.
Was that supposed to offend me? haha Again you need to do some studying of history and understand about the garment or “holy underwear” as you say…Did you know this was one of the reasons why the Pharaohs in Egypt were seeking power was because of the “holy underwear” which came from Noah and through his sons…to this day many do not understand the VERY BIBLE you profess to know so well. So continue to mock but you know not what you mock as it comes from the Bible and has been fought over for centuries throughout the Middle East. Even Peter and the Apostles, Solomon, Abraham, etc, etc, wore priestly garments or “holy underwear” but you should already know these facts…
Report Post »ZengaPA65
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:07pmKeep on talking :D
Report Post »benitayacenda
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:20pmLDS.org is a site that is Mormon Propoganda, I was raised Mormon and my father was in the bishopric, It took till I became an adult and was abused sexually by my Mormon husband, who was supported by the Mormon church for me to find the truth about Joseph Smith. The church and LDS.org teach this flowery story about how wonderful he was, in reality, Joseph Smith was nothing more than a sexual deviate and a con artist. He did not die as a martyr for the Mormon faith as I was taught, he died at the hands of Fathers and husbands of the women he TOOK, many against their will, to be his wives and sexual partners. He was a bis sicko. If he tried to do now what he did then, he would be in jail!!! I am shocked that Beck who claims to investigate everything, believes the drivel of the Mormon church. It is a church that worships their leaders and what their prophet says over the bible-Word of God and God said that we should no one or thing before him, it is then an idol we worship before God. I now believe in God, not the Mormon church. I probably would have a hard time justifying a vote for Romney because of the fact that he believes in Mormonism, however, that does not have to come in to play because he is nothing more than a career politician and he changes position as it suits his career, I do not trust him based on that, not his religion or lack thereof.
Report Post »Welcome Black Carter
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:33pmDon’t feel bad, if he were Catholic he would not attend a different denomination either. Just the way they roll.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:49pmBenita;
“he died at the hands of Fathers and husbands of the women he TOOK, many against their will, to be his wives and sexual partners.”
Funny how you can’t name a single one. This includes wives as his “sexual partner” nor being killed by the “Fathers and husbands of the women…”
Glad you don’t disagree on Romney because of his religion. That makes sense. There’s definitely lots of political reasons not to like him.
Would you not vote for him over Obama? Would you vote third party; or sit this one out?
Report Post »L-man
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:57pmdo you have “ Magic glasses” too ? Are you looking forward to being the god of your own universe ?
teamarcheson
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:45amHis Religion Is The Only Thing Romney Can Rely On To Take Attention Away From His RINOism.
His Madison Avenue Ad Agency has come up with a trick to use his religion to silence his opposition. Label the opposition bigots because they oppose Mormons when in fact its Romney Care we oppose.
It is not his religion, its his attitude and policies we oppose. He has done everything we oppose. He needs to switch parties.
My TEA is turning to super hot steam.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:52amTeaMarceson;
“His Madison Avenue Ad Agency has come up with a trick to use his religion to silence his opposition. Label the opposition bigots because they oppose Mormons when in fact its Romney Care we oppose. ”
I completely agree tha some in the Romney camp are way to quick to call out religious bigotry. I don‘t know if it’s delbrate to divert attention from romney‘s politics or if that’s what they truly think but either way it is ridiculous.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:46ambenitayacenda sounds like a rather confused misinformed liar. Nothing she said was true, even remotely. Now off with you, troll/liar/bigot.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:54am[L-man
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:57pm
do you have “ Magic glasses” too ? Are you looking forward to being the god of your own universe ?]
Partial list of magic items mentioned in the Old and New Testament.
1) Walking on water
2) Turning water to wine.
3) Magic handkerchief that cures diseases
4) Magic bread loaves that feeds thousands
5) Magic finger of God wrting on Moses tablets.
6) Magic parting of the red sea.
7) Magic pillars of fire from the sky.
8) Magic coin swallowing fish.
9) Magic apostles killing followers magically (husband and wife die on spot)
10) Magic plagues.
11) Son magically stays in sky for extra day (Joshua)
12) Magic arch, containing all land animals of the world.
13) Magic urim and thummin (used by Joseph Smith) referenced first in Old Testament
Yep, that God has some interesting magic.
Report Post »garyM
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:28pmconservativewoman…education is education…..ideas are ideas, when it comes to the Gospel and truth, there is only one truth in the Bible, you can’t agree with every false doctrine for the reason that want everyone to like you. A relationship with the Lord is not a religion or denomination and no earthly man can forgive sins, even if he wears a long flowing robe and he is appointed by other men with long robes! The Bible speaks of men that wear long flowing robes and like to sit in the best seat in the church and it’s not approving of it. Do you know anyone who fits that description?
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:03am[GaryM:The Bible speaks of men that wear long flowing robes and like to sit in the best seat in the church and it’s not approving of it. Do you know anyone who fits that description?]
Most evangelical tv evangelists with two thousand dollar suits, sitting in the best places in their mega-churches would fit that description. Then they drive their expensive luxory cars how to their man-made earthly mansions.
Report Post »garyM
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:20pmWhy did Romney skip this event? My answer:
Report Post »Because he doesn’t consider himself to be one of Christians that gathered together in Iowa. I‘m inclined to agree with him since his ideas doesn’t match their ideas about Christianity. He is not a conservative although it appears the Foxnews media is anointing him as the GOP candidate!
jmildred
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:31pmFox news is decidedly a disappointment in this area at least. Anyone – I say anyone! – who really checks into Romney and his political philosophy and actions will find he is NOT a conservative and we can certainly do better than him!
Report Post »slr4528
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:05pmYou are mistaken Fox news, may mention Romney’s name but the majority of opinion programs and actual news casts have been more biased towards Cain and initially Perry.
Report Post »Taxpayer550
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:19pmMormonism is very legalistic. There is a great deal of angst and trepidation among Mormons about not sinning, and doing the right thing. Fundamental Christianity, on the other hand, minimizes the angst because it relies on Jesus Christ’s work on the cross to continually cleanse from sin. While sin is not generally accepted in the Christian community, it is understood that Christians are just sinners saved by God’s grace, and sometimes that sinful nature rears its ugly head. Once confessed, God separates it from them “as far as the east is from the west”.
Report Post »Nasado
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:12pmHa, you made me think of a song some friends and I came up with years ago,
Report Post »“Born again, saved from sin;
Never have to repent again,
Cuz I just put a fish on my car
I drink all day and beat my wife,
I’m gona gain eternal life…”
And I can’t remeber how it ended. So basically you are saying that all we have to do is say a little prayer, accept Jesus and then we are saved no matter what? Well, I’ve said the saving prayer like 30 times so I guess I can do whatever I want and not worry about it.Ah, if only it were that easy. Why should we think that after all the suffering Christ went through, we should have nothing asked of us? If that is what you believe, then I hope for your sake you are correct.
kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:01amEvangelicals are even more legaistic. They just have fewer requirements, as bizarre as they may seem to logical thinking people.
1) You are saved not because of what you do, except that one big thing you have to do, which is to declare Christ your savior. After this one big work of yours, which saves you, then after that you are saved by grace.
Report Post »2) Three Gods rolled into one, because they have semantical issues about what being one spiritually could possibly mean. They are hard pressed as to what Christ meant when he prayed to his Father to make his millions of followers ONE WITH THEM as CHRIST IS ONE WITH GOD.
3) You can‘t be a Christian unless you’re an evangelical. Catholics, no, Mormons no, etc, etc.
rpercifield
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:17pmSorry guys, Romney is not in the lead in Iowa. He is at least 10 points behind Cain. It has nothing to do with his skipping Iowa or his Mormonism, It has to do with his policies. The Republican base is tired of RINOS. And no, we will not vote for Paul. Romney is a bowl of old oatmeal, he assumes the shape of the venue of the moment. Then, when that venue changes so does his shape. McCain failed at this and Romney will as well. We do not need Romney, who is nothing other than Obama lite. He will take us over the cliff, the only difference is that his foot will be off the accelerator.
Paul is a well meaning person, just delusional in the defense, security, and foreign policy of this nation. If he were to just view the world through something other than extreme libertarian glasses I could at least see hope. But to make statements that Iran is not a threat to the US, is like saying that Great White shark while you are swimming is harmless. Yes compared to the great white human kind can easily overpower and kill it. However, one on one and in specific ways it can easily cause significant damage and death. Ron Paul would by the same reasoning would say to ignore the threat. And many times that would work, it is just the times when he was wrong that people would die.
Report Post »Pigpen
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:33pmI agree with your assessment of Romney, but I am warming up to Paul. I think Cain but he appears naive about Washington. I think tax reform should be a number one priority in the US, but his 9-9-9 plan will be eviscerated in Congress and even if it does pass both houses, without the Line Item Veto, the newly reformed tax code will still have all of the old loopholes and the whole debacle will have cost a fortune. So I see Paul as the only candidate with both the WILL and the political EXPERIENCE to make any changes to that cesspool that is Washington DC.
Report Post »jmildred
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:33pmThat is DO good to hear!
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:08pmThe media is trying desperately to influence our decision. Who have they ignored and dismissed although they have a steady and growing support base? I recommend that people take a look at this man’s Plan. Whether you disagree or agree with the guy on some things, one thing is for certain, his Plan makes the most sense concerning huge spending cuts, ending welfare programs, not raising taxes, not creating new taxes, ending certain federal agencies and departments (Education, EPA, Energy, etc), slashing funds for other bureaucracies (FDA, etc), limiting the size of the federal workfoce, giving some things back to the States to take care of, and many other TEA Party advocated positions. One should look at his stance of cutting foreign subsidies wihtin context. He’s trying to save our economy and keep the US from going bankrupt. You can’t deny the effectiveness of the plan to help in those goals. Rush also said that this man is the only candidate that has proposed such a plan, which we Conservatives have been demanding for years now. Definately something interesting to look at, no matter your candidate of choice.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:09pmPaul said he would not cut down on Defense. He said he’d cut down on Military, in things we don’t necessarily need, or are essential to our security. Militarism and National Defense are two different things. Bringing our troops home to secure our borders, is National Defense. Sending our troops to Uganda, to protect and fight for other Rulers and Citizens, on our dime, is Militarism. Get the facts straight. Defense spending vs. Militarism spending. Isolationism vs. Non-interventionism. Federalism vs. Nationalism. Individualism vs. Collectivism. Fiat Money or Hard Money? Constitutionalism or Progressivism? Bureaucrats or Free Citizens? Paul is for trade and friendship with any Nations willing. Isolationists want to pass embargos, start fights and wars with other Nations, stop talks and diplomatic agreements, tell other Nations what they can and can’t do within their own borders, force Nations to do things agaisnt their own will, deny trade or travel to other Nations, actually build a real fence on our border (fences should be put up on private property by land owners and for strategic reasons in certain critical areas), start dangerous conflicts with far away Nations soley due to their heritage, faith or form of Government, disregard the early church’s doctrine of fighting in only just wars especially for defense, and telling other Nations to shut up because we are the Policemen of the world.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:10pmOur founding fathers encouraged us to lead by example and be a beacon of light to the world, that they me see the rectitude of our intentions and eminate the greatness of our prosperity. Our Nation was humble and godly. War was used as a last resort against actual imminent threats, not he said she said nonsense. Read this article http://dailycaller.com/2011/08/25/was-bill-buckley-a-foreign-policy-leftist/#ixzz1WH5EqeBi.
We the PEOPLE OF the US… insure DOMESTIC Tranquility, provide for the common DEFENSE… and SECURE the Blessings of Liberty TO OURSELVES and OUR POSTERITY… do ordain and establish THIS CONSTITUTION… FOR the United STATES of AMERICA.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:29pmWe’re not a Global Communist Government or World Police Force that dictates to other Nations what they can and can’t do within their own borders. Paul said that if Israel feels threatened by Iran that they should go right ahead and take care of them. And that if they are in need of aid and ask for help that he would not decline. He actually respects Israel’s independence and sovereignty. He understands that our subsidies and meddling in the Middle East keeps Israel from making its own decisions. Israel knows what’s best for itself. I think we should trust Israel and stop thinking we know better than Israel. Ron Paul supported Israel when they bombed Iraq’s facilities, when many others didn’t. He wrote a constitutional Letter of Marque to go after Bin Laden and his minions. He co-sponsored a bill to go into Afganishtan to capture those responsible for terrorist attacks, like Al Qaeda. He urged Congress and the federal administration to go into Pakistan to get Bin Laden, when most other officials doubted he was even there. He is in favor of Pilots being armed and ready for defense, and that we should profile and investigate real suspects in an airport. He is in favor of stopping all foreign aid, and thus stop funding Israel’s enemies.
Report Post »americanfirst
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:30amI’m voting Mitt Romney – He is a Conservative. He is Christian. He is the right man for the job!
Report Post »gogogoff
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:07pmWhy go ? the group that went is bigoted, they ran a poll, and they found that 30% of Evans, would not vote for someone JUST because he is a member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST, of latter day saints.
Why go to the bigots, and try to win them over, it is like talking to ron paul trolls, waste of time.
Report Post »ZengaPA65
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:42pmMormonism is not Christianity folks. It’s Islam without the violence. A bunch of goofy doctrines from a false prophet who talked to angels in a cave and liked to have sex with underage girls. Take over the world, die and screw a bunch of women. Their lil book trumps the Bible. They believe God was a man and Jesus and Satan are brothers and the angels that refused to fight in Satan’s rebellion against God came to earth as black people. Do some research and quit getting info from TV. There‘s a lot more Buddhists than Mormons and they’re just as nice and well behaved yet no one confuses them for Christians. Do your homework.
Ron Paul 2012
Report Post »OpenRevolt
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:10pmMormons do have a history of violence, HISTORY being the keyword here. Let’s be 100% factual please.
JOHN SMITH, who believed himself to be Jesus reborn among other things, was shot and killed in a Mormon Civil War. Before that the Mormons had to move Utah because they were kicked out states by the National Guard for stirring up mass violence and by assuming not just blacks, but native Americans were really dark skinned Jews cursed by God who founded an Ancient Civilization.
Now if you are a Mormon this is a long before the 1960‘s or Lincoln’s Civil War so you could argue they were fighting for Native American rights, but the non-Mormons thought they were insane because they believed Native Americans were clearly not Jews.
Here you can see Glenn Beck on Fox News claiming well-known hoaxes were really true evidence of the Indians being Jews and having a long lost Ancient Jew Civilization in America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwSzPtaK03M
I don’t have a problem with Beck, but you should really look at Mormonism historically and critically and decide for yourself. This is clearly what Beck wants–otherwise he wouldn’t have done this on Fox.
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:32pmOpenRevolt
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:10pm
Let’s be 100% factual please.
JOHN SMITH, who believed himself to be Jesus reborn among other things, was shot and killed in a Mormon Civil War. Before that the Mormons had to move Utah because they were kicked out states by the National Guard
haha you didn’t even pay attention to YOUR own first five words above…
His name is Joseph Smith NOT John Smith…John Smith was during the time of Pocahantas.
Joseph NEVER thought himself to be Jesus reborn as that is not even our doctrine…Jesus is a resurrected being and ….never mind. I do not even know why I waste my time with drivel like this that is so laughable.
Most people know who are Mormons are and work around them every day and see what “fruits they bear” as Christ once taught. I’ll let that be my teacher for today!
Good night all from Afghanistan!
Report Post »OpenRevolt
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:38pmI’m just saying there is no need to rag on Mormons as Islam or call them non-Christian. If you are a Mormon you equally believe yourself to be Christian because of your respect for Jesus and John Smith.
Also as for violence, many Churches were violent, especially Catholic. And many more can be seen as ‘kookie’, ie Pentecostals.
When it comes to faith and reason each person needs to judge the situation for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
Report Post »OpenRevolt
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:45pm@NAVYSQUID
Thanks for the correction on John VS Joseph and others. I‘m going by what I’ve personally read in the Book of Mormon and what life-long Mormons have preached to me.
Joseph Smith was referred to me as someone ‘reborn’ who had a chief significance equal to Jesus or greater. Often they would relate it to me as the Jesus of modern times.
Being a Mormon I’m very glad you are here, can you please explain the above Mormon history and the Ancient Jewish Civilization founded by Native Americans?
Report Post »Trex
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 9:39pmWhat a bunch of bunk. Pretty pathetic.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:54pmOpenRevolt;
“JOHN SMITH, who believed himself to be Jesus reborn among other things, was shot and killed in a Mormon Civil War. Before that the Mormons had to move Utah because they were kicked out states by the National Guard for stirring up mass violence and by assuming not just blacks, but native Americans were really dark skinned Jews cursed by God who founded an Ancient Civilization.”
You’re a sheer genius in slipping pure comedy into an otherwise volatile thread. It does help to avoid contention. So, thanks.
Report Post »L-man
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:01amdon’t forget the “Magic glasses ” that joe smith found ! Bwahahahaha
Report Post »2012cain /newt cain / newt 2012
READRIGHTHERE
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:08amDarren – Thanks for the effort, it is greatly appreciated.
L-Man, I quote Dan Akroyd, “We mock what we do not understand.” Whether your lack of understanding is the result of defiant effort on your part, or simply a matter of laziness in study, or due to a traumatic experience in which you felt betrayed or offended, I cannot tell. But I can clearly see that you do not understand Mormonism.
Surely, any tenet of Romney’s faith cannot be held in derision just because on the surface it seems strange. Do not “Main Stream Christians” believe in the Virgin birth, the burning bush, Jonah and the whale, Noah’s ark, talking Donkeys, furnaces that don’t burn their occupants, the earth standing still in its rotation to evidence the stopping of the sun, cities being destroyed by trumpets, tax paying fish, the dead being brought back to life, etc?
I firmly attest that every Christian should boldly question the findings of politically charged, fourth century, committees forging new Doctrine regarding the Nature of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost while creating words like “Trinity” that never existed before.
For every doctrinal attack on the Mormon faith there are scriptural and logical answers that bolster its defense. It doesn’t matter how many times a falsehood is repeated, quoted, or supported by others, it is still incorrect.
Mock ad nauseum, it won’t change the fact that millions have searched their hearts, heads, and faith and have chosen this “narr
Report Post »READRIGHTHERE
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:10am…“narrow” path.
Report Post »CaliforniaD
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:24amYou are a bigoted fool, sir,–a sorry excuse for an American…your hatred is showing and it doesn’t bode well for the future of America if there are a lot of people like you. We face the most serious times in our nation’s history. We have a talented, experienced, successful, and patriotic man like Mitt Romney who has ably served his state and country in the past (at no pay). And you choose to insult him and the millions of good Americans of his faith. You and people like you will be responsible for the downfall of this country. Your type rejected Romney last time and caused Obama’s election, and you will make it happen again, to the dismay of us all. We need to pull together not pull apart because of religious bigotry!
Report Post »OpenRevolt
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:15amIf it‘s all bunk why did Joe Smith’s wife never become Mormon and disapproved of him marrying multiple wives?
Every Mormon man is going to become GOD of another PLANET with multiple wives?
Jesus and the Bible disagrees:
MATTHEW 22:23-30 – 23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Him and questioned Him, 24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies, having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up an offspring to his brother.’ 25 “Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother; 26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 “And last of all, the woman died. 28 “In the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? For they all had her.” 29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. 30 “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”
A servant cannot serve two masters.
And neither can MItt Romney
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:08am[OpenRevolt
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:10pm
Mormons do have a history of violence, HISTORY being the keyword here. Let’s be 100% factual please.
JOHN SMITH, who believed himself to be Jesus reborn among other things, was shot and killed in a Mormon Civil War. Before that the Mormons had to move Utah because they were kicked out states by the National Guard for stirring up mass violence and by assuming not just blacks, but native Americans were really dark skinned Jews cursed by God who founded an Ancient Civilization.]
You got nothing right. Not even the primary name of the founder of the LDS church. Dude, you really need to stay off of illegal drugs and get back onto your prescribed meds.
BTW, Joseph Smith was against slavery, moron.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:20am[OpenRevolt
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:15am
If it‘s all bunk why did Joe Smith’s wife never become Mormon and disapproved of him marrying multiple wives?]
Again, you attempting to re-write history just makes you look stupid. Add your stupidity to your obvious bigotry and your outright lies and misinformation leaves us thinking that you are a very little little man, in character and spirit.
Emma voluntarily got baptised into the LDS faith early on in LDS church history. She was the first president of the womans relief society and held high regard for the LDS faith. After the death of her husband she had issues as to who was to become the next president of the LDS church. She assumed that it would be passed down from father to son, which was a simple mistake to make. So she and her son formed an offshoot of the LDS faith.
Like I said before, get off the illegal drugs and back onto your prescribed meds.
Report Post »conservativewoman
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:34pmI don’t blame Romney for not going. As a Catholic, I went to a Protestant University thinking that getting an education with Christian values would be much better than going to a state school.
Report Post »I often heard the professors and students saying awful things about Mormons. They were not much easier on us Catholics. It was a shame. I went there with the idea that they would share my view that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:45pmdo you mean like these awful things??
While the Catholic Church would reject nothing that is true or good in Mormonism or any other world religion, Catholic theology would have to note that there is a tremendous amount in Mormonism that is neither true nor good. Further, because Mormonism presents itself as a form of Christianity yet is incompatible with the historic Christian faith, sound pastoral practice would need to warn the Christian faithful: Mormon theology is blasphemous, polytheistic, and cannot be considered on par with the theology of other Christian groups.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/what-does-the-catholic-church-say-about-the-practices-and-beliefs-of-mormonism
or this?
Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches
Tuesday, July 10, 2007
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LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy — For the second time in a week, Pope Benedict XVI has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, reasserting the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church and saying other Christian communities were either defective or not true churches.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288841,00.html#ixzz1bdygZmhp
Report Post »qpwillie
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:54pmRomney‘s problem is that he’s just about as conservative as it gets in the Northeast ….which is about as liberal as it gets in most areas. He considers himself a conservative because he’s to the right of most people in Massachusetts. It’s a relative thing.
Report Post »soundtracktowar
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:08pmGreat post, we should come together to defeat obama, any one of the candidates is light years ahead of obama. Regardless of peoples faith, the fact that they have faith is what should matter, i dont care if youre mormon, catholic, evangelical,
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:21pmI went to Catholic University… and it was Radical Marxist!
Report Post »sanchiro
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:54pm“While individual Mormons may be persons of good conscience, Mormonism itself is a belief system that would reduce the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit from being the three Persons of the one, true, and infinite God to being three limited, finite deities among an uncounted multitude of deities, all of whom merely reshaped small parts of a preexisting cosmos.”
This is littered with half truths. As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we believe in one God and only one, in God, the Father. We believe also in His literal Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. They are three distinct persons, perfected and exalted. There’s nothing mysterious in that.
“Mormonism teaches that human beings may, by practicing the tenets of its faith, become gods and goddesses themselves, with their own planets full of people worshiping them.”
Christ advocated that we as mortals strive for perfection.
“Mormon theology is blasphemous, polytheistic, and cannot be considered on par with the theology of other Christian group”
We look to God and to His Son, even Christ, for our salvation. There is no polytheism in LDS or Mormon doctrine. There is only one God! We worship Him.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:04pm“We look to God and to His Son, even Christ, for our salvation. There is no polytheism in LDS or Mormon doctrine. There is only one God! We worship Him.”
uh yeah sure…
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 9:40pmConservativewoman;
“I often heard the professors and students saying awful things about Mormons. They were not much easier on us Catholics.”
It is my first-hand experience that those ofthe Evangelical/Protestant pursuasion who attack Mormonism are just about equally “vicious” when attacking Catholicism. Pretty sad.
Report Post »Welcome Black Carter
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:42amIt wasn’t very long ago people were of the mind that Christianity and islam were of the same God. That bloom is off the ROSE now. Pretty obvious islam is nothing more than an anti-Christianity. The path is black and white, no gray. Choose your path wisely
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:30amJOE1234, like most evangelicals, base their belief in “one God” because of what a council of men decided in 325 AD. These men took issue with the word “one” given by Christ, where he stated that he and his Father “are one.” Christ clarified what he meant to some degree when he prayed to his father in heaven (John 17) that his followers (now numbering in the millions) would become one with him “as” Christ is “one with God.”
Evangelicals, being physically minded and spiritually lacking, figure that God the Father and his Son must be one physically, even though spiritually minded people have no problem understanding that they are one spiritually. Otherwise the millions of followers of Christ must also be one physically, which is just kind of stupid.
Evangelicals also get confused about God’s physical being because there is another scripture that says “God is a spirit.” Again, this scripture is not talking about God’s physical appearance but rather stating that God is a spiritual being. Because the very following verse states that God must be worshipped in spirit. Using the lame evangelical understanding that means any man desiring to worship God needs to remove his body temporarily and become a spirit (physically) then start worshiping God. In short, evangelical belief is childish and naive on many keys issues.
Report Post »waluman353
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:34pmGeeeez…..how can the blaze still ignore Ron Paul???? why would beck push for anyone else? makes no sense….paul is obviously the only candidate worth mentioning for everyones future..
Report Post »Vunks
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:53pmDont worry Cain is about to implode on himself and Ron Paul is on the rise give it a week it two pretty soon the blaze will be full of RP stories.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:55amSorry, but no indication that Ron Paul is going anywhere. It could be because most of his followers act and sound so crazy and extreme.
Report Post »1389AD
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 8:37pmIt is because Glenn Beck is a Mormon himself. It isn’t widely publicized, but it’s a fact.
Romney is a self-serving liberal whose only deity is in his mirror, but he professes to be a Mormon, so Beck supports him.
Report Post »mikenleeds
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:34pmRomney and rick Perry are both rinos so don t let those two snakes fool you.
just go back and look at there voting records
Report Post »survivorseed
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:27pmI notice fox are starting to undermine Cain big time and the Blaze seems to have thrown their support behind romney. I’ll be interested to see how long it is before you all drop Cain like a hot rock and fall into line and support romney.
Report Post »keenwhiz
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:26pmSupport Mitt, Cain does not stand a chance.
Report Post »Br@dley
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:36pmyeah, support mitt, the most liberal of the GOP candidates. GREAT IDEA SIR!
Report Post »kickagrandma
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:54pmI stand with the man “who has no chance”, Mr. Herman Cain!
Bring it on, liberals and rhinos: OUR GOD has chosen Herman Cain. It’s up to us to see if we are smart enough to listen to our GOD for once!
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:12pmThat’s what they said about Joe Nameth and the Jets and who knows how many teams in various sports since….different venue,same principle!
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:31pm@KICKAGRANDMA I pray pretty often, and God hasn’t told me to vote for Cain. I have learned through his Word though, to not compromise on principles and values, and to stay honest. He also talks against usury (the Federal Reserve), advocates sound money (just weights and measures), prohibits a fiat currency (diverse weights, a great and a small), and discourages an income tax (the fruit of ones labor is the gift of God). I don’t see Cain supporting all these precepts of God.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:41am[colt1860
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 11:31pm
@KICKAGRANDMA I pray pretty often, and God hasn’t told me to vote for Cain. I have learned through his Word though, to not compromise on principles and values, and to stay honest. He also talks against usury (the Federal Reserve), ]
Colt is a nutcase Paulista so you will hear him rambling on many subjects. He is not very coherent when it comes down to the details however. So in his effort to support Ron Paul he does this stupid liberal trick of lying about all the other republican opponents. Unfortunately, most Paulites are quickly persuaded into lying for the cause.
Usory, by the way, was not about charging interest, but in charging obscene interest for a service. Neither God the Father nor Christ were against business in general. They believed however that business should not be perfomed on sacred ground, temples, etc.
Usury ( /ˈjuːʒəri/[1] is the practice of charging excessive, unreasonably high, and often illegal interest rates on loans.[2][3]
Mind you, some historic Christians got confused early on and prohibited any amount of interest. However, there is no indication that that was ever intended to be the correct understanding of the hebrew term used for Usury.
Especially since God did not condemn all forms of business, and, as we know, all forms of business involve some sort of profit. God does condemn dishonest forms of business, whereever they may be found.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:04pm@kmichaels I’m not a nutcase. I’m a reasonable man and independent thinker. I’m an American Conservative and will guard the Constitution and our American heritage from corruption, and departure away from its principles. And, as far as you saying I’m rambling, I think you should take a look at you long list of posts first. I may have a passion or persuasive manner when I speak but I do not pointlessly ramble on. I speak and discuss issues with reason and cause. Perhaps you should consider your manner of speech before you start to personally call others names whose effect is to degrade and demean their cause. Rudeness and personal attacks is not a Christian value or one I easily tolerate. The only liberal tactics being used is your game of calling others names and not discussing the issues at hands with reason and respect. If I have lied, call out the lie, and provide facts and sources to disprove them. I never mentioned interest in my brief comment about usury. Nor did I ever imply God was against business. Talking about liberal tactics, I’m pretty sure slander is one. My point in pointing out usury and the Federal Reserve was the fact that the US Congress has the Power to print money if needed without paying another private entity money for the service, as did Lincoln. Not only that, but usury is debt one owes in addition to the original price or value, to this point, the Federal Reserve does not print and loan us money for free.
Report Post »Carborendum
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:25pmIt doesn’t matter if it is a friendly environment or a hostile one. A Mormon candidate will never be accepted by evangelicals. They may be friendly. But they will never endorse him. His campaign is not served one iota by going to that convention. It would simply be a waste of time and money for him to go.
I would really question whether evangelicals would choose a Mormon or a Muslim, if those were the choices.
Report Post »soundtracktowar
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:49pmLook when it comes down to it, mormons are good people, have great families and lasting marriages. if you want to be bigoted and not vote for someone based on their faith, and make no mistake, discounting someone because o their faith is absolute bigotry. i like catholics a heck of a lot more than evangelicals, but tthat wouldnt stop me from voting for one. im a big fan of herman cain. if he had more experience i would vote for him. dont discount someone because of their religion, soldiers didnt fight and die for your right to be a bigot.
Report Post »Carborendum
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:40pmSoundtrack,
I believe you misunderstood my tone. I was criticizing those evangelicals for throwing Romney under the bus simply because of his religion. I said they would never endorse a Mormon, not with a defiant tone, but with a critical one.
Report Post »I Love Freedom
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:25pmI hope the grass roots rise in New Hampshire and vote Ron Paul over Romney or give him a close second place. But I doubt it. He is after all, the “prettiest” one. Every time he opens his mouth I think of used car salesman, and I apologize to all the used car salesmen
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:01pmSo you judge a person based upon his outward appearance, eh? Not all that wise, really.
Report Post »dealer@678
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:21pmDo Mormans believe Jesus is God or just a saint. If he believes as Christians do then the other mickey mouse doctrine doesnt matter
Report Post »peteasdf
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:32pmMormons – or members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints – believe in Jesus Christ as “the Savior of the world and the Son of God.” (mormon.org/jesus-christ/)
Report Post »kathystone
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:46pmTh name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints. They believer Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, the Savior who died for the sins of all mankind and who rose on the third day. He revealed Himself to those who were his followers and was seen by thousands on that side of the world. Additionally, He had flocks that were not of that fold and came to the people who believed in Him in the Western Hemisphere( where do you think the story of Quetelcatl got its start from?) as well as other areas of the world.
Report Post »The problem most evangelical preachers have with the Church is that, like the first church organized by Jesus himself, the Church of Jesus Christ has a living prophet and was founded by revelation. The churches that are offshoots of the Catholic Church were created becasue thier leaders believed the Catholic religion had something not quite right about it. Whether this was correct of not, they felt something was missing. They were right.
How much did Jesus charge to see him or hear him preach? How many evangelical preachers make a living from thier work as a preacher? The Church of Jesus Christ does not have pid clergy. So, you see they challenge the evangelicals that way. Because many evangelicals take money from the government and can thus be controlled, they must lash out at those who do not. I would challenge anyone who is seeking truth to read the Book of Mormon, another testimony of Jesus Christ. Ask God if it is true
joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:48pmthe mormon jesus is a created being…not the eternal God.
Report Post »momprayn
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:01pm“Son of God” = CREATED being, not God in Mormonism; founded upon “revelations” from an angel given to J. Smith – scriptures say satan can appear as an angel of light, 2 Cor. 11:14, 15. Also scriptures say to reject everything else even if from angel from heaven, Gal. 1:8,9 and Bible is COMPLETE, 2 Tim. 3:16 Smith saw a demonic angel; ignored scriptures.
“Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a CREATION. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God’s spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1:16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is God in flesh, it teaches that he is “a” god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5)
More:.
http://carm.org/is-mormonism-christian
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:01pmJoe1234,
Report Post »You have NO idea what you are talking about! If anyone wants to find out what Mormons (The LDS Church) believes go to lds.org or mormon.org to find out. I wouldn’t talk to a Baptist to get the most up to date information on what the Catholic Church believes…yet everyone thinks they’re an expert on Mormon doctrine.
joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:04pm“You have NO idea what you are talking about! If anyone wants to find out what Mormons ”
oh yeah right, prove me wrong. you cannot. the mormon jesus is not the Jesus of the bible…
in the bible Jesus is the first and last Revelation 1…and there are no Gods before, none after…isaiah 43:10 and there is ONE GOD…deuteronomy 6:4
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:21pmJoe1234,
You show you a complete lack of knowledge of the Bible and how it came to be. The Book of Revelation was given to the Apostle John as he was banned to the isle of Patmos and it was there he received a Revelation regarding the end of the world and also the Apostasy that was and did come…It was placed at the end of the Bible because it dealt with things still to come NOT because it was the last book written! 1 John for instance was written AFTER John got off the Isle of Patmos…so everyone who always quotes about no more books should be written after Revelation, frankly, shows their ignorance of historical facts and even the “learned men” at the Nicene Creed who debated on what should and should not go into the Bible.
Jesus is the Son of the Living God and has a body of flesh and bone! He appeared in the flesh AFTER his resurrection and allowed hundreds if not thousands to come and touch and feel the wounds in his hands and in his feet. The Savior prayed to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane…He was not praying to Himself! Also at the time of His baptism a voice from heaven (His Father) said “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”. I can go on and on…
It is many Christians that have to bend and twist the Bible to conform to what they believe and NOT what is actually written in scripture…thus why so many people leave one church and form another! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints IS Christ’s Church established on the eart
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:25pmJoe1234,
Continued…
It is many Christians that have to bend and twist the Bible to conform to what they believe and NOT what is actually written in scripture…thus why so many people leave one church and form another! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints IS Christ’s Church established on the earth again in the last days. It is established just how the Savior set it up when He was upon the face of the earth.
Go and research how the Bible was formed and created. I know it to be the word of God BUT it was debated and many things were taken out for lack of understanding or disagreements. The LDS Church believes in the King James Bible and studies from it weekly. The Book of Mormon is the history of the people who arrived in the Western Hemisphere at the time after the Tower of Babel and also those that left in 600BC before Jerusalem fell and it is THEIR record as the Bible is of the Eastern Hemisphere. So read and study and know what you are talking about before you go bashing something you lack understanding on…
Report Post »Pigpen
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:27pmWell, the final word is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does NOT allow homosexuals as clergy or to hold the Priesthood. Further, no one is paid in the LDS faith for religious service. From the lowliest Sunday School teacher to the President of the Church. NOT ONE gets a dime for their service. So, I am afraid that it is really hard for me to be generous to those who so virulently attack my faith by grossly misquoting and (hopefully unintentionally) misinterpreting our doctrine when THEIR doctrine is to PAY HOMOSEXUALS to teach them “tolerance”. If you come from a denomination which allows GAY/LESBIAN ministers, what nerve do you have to attack us for being untrue to the Savior Jesus Christ? And are you sure that your minister really hates Mormons based upon some obscure interpretation of the pre-existence? OR is s/he more threatened by the idea of a lay, UNPAID CLERGY?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 6:44pm“You show you a complete lack of knowledge of the Bible and how it came to be”
oh yeah right, your false prophet smith has a better revelation than the bible…sure!
“even the “learned men” at the Nicene Creed who debated on what should and should not go into the Bible. ”
mormon talking points. you’re evading the issue…no surprise…its hard to have to defend a false prophet.
“The Savior prayed to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane…He was not praying to Himself! ”
another Person in the ONENESS of the trinity…this is why mormons are not christians…if you don’t accept the trinity and give up your heresies, you will never be considered christians no matter how much you wish to be…and you consider th rest of us apostate.
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints IS Christ’s Church established on the eart”
yeah the JWs say much the same thing…every cult has the same old song and dance.
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:06pmhaha
“oh yeah right, your false prophet smith has a better revelation than the bible…sure!”
Did you even read my post? I did not say anything of the sort. I explained where each book is derived from and I noticed that you did not come back with anything substantive because you couldn’t. Do some research and understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Who’s voice was it that came from Heaven? Who was the Savior praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane? On the Cross? When the Savior said I and my Father are one. He means in purpose and He explained that over and over and over again. He was here on earth to do His FATHER’s will. You need to look up where the whole Trinity beliefs were constructed because it WAS NOT by the Savior, Jesus Christ. He knows that his Father and He are two Separate individuals and that for many is hard to understand because you have been taught incorrectly most of your life but internally you know these things have never made sense to you when you read the Bible. Research, research, research! Why did Martin Luther leave the Catholic Church, Why did many of these churches begin themselves? Because others questioned their origins and so did Joseph Smith in the early 1800′s. God has throughout all mankind spoken to His children through prophets and so why, if a God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, would He leave his people all alone without His mouthpiece in the last days? I testify to you there is a living prophet on this earth today recei
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:14pmWhy would God, who is the same, yesterday, today, and forever, leave us without His mouthpiece on the earth to guide us in these last days? The Lord gave us prophets such as Moses, Isaac, Abraham, Isaiah, and even Peter after Christ’s Resurrection (in the flesh…which is what resurrection means – the reuniting of the body and the spirit). However, once Peter and the Apostles were crucified, beheaded, stoned, etc to death that Priesthood authority was taken from this earth. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to this earth once again and God gives us direction to this very day with a living prophet, but still just a man as was Moses or Peter.
But, bottom line this election is not about whether The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true or not, it is about electing a candidate for POTUS.
Report Post »GO ROMNEY!!!
joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:21pm“. I explained where each book is derived from and I noticed that you did not come back with anything substantive because you couldn’t”
it really doesn’t matter….you’re blowing smoke…trying to avoid the issues…either you belive the bible, as you say you do, or you don’t…and you don’t. Yeah the rest of christianity had it wrong for 1,800 years until a false prophet comes along and sets us straight…right…Luther was wrong…Paul was wrong…even Jesus was wrong…and smith was right…uh huh.
“Who’s voice was it that came from Heaven? Who was the Savior praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane? On the Cross? When the Savior said I and my Father are one. He means in purpose ”
its far more than purpose…your god is not the God of the Bible….the Father is God, the Son is God…and the Holy Spirit is God…3 persons ONE GOD….and there are no gods before, and none after (isaiah 43:10)
“He knows that his Father and He are two Separate individuals ”
Jesus calls Himself the First and the last
Revelation 1:
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
How can the Father be before Jesus, and be His father, since Jesus is the first?? hmmmm??? this verse only makes sense in the Trinity.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:27pmI try to post quotes from smith and young proving they are false prophets…and they are quickly deleted…so much for freedom of speech…looks like beck doesn’t really believe in it.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:29pmtalk about censorship…i’ve had a couple of posts just censored by this site…guess beck doesn’t really believe in freedom of speech…I’m sure this will be censored too…can’t post anything the proves smith is a false prophet
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:35pm“to death that Priesthood authority was taken from this earth. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to this earth once again and God gives us direction to this very day with a living prophet”
there is nothing in the bible, which you say you believe, to indicate this is true…lets talk about the mormon treatment of black people…they couldn’t become priests until the 1970s….then the mormon god changed his mind…but the God the Bible does not change his mind…same with polygamy.
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:48pmjoe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:21pm
You are really showing your ignorance after this post. You never answered my questions either and said I was blowing smoke. I asked you specific questions about who the Savior was talking to in the Garden, and on the Cross, and when he was praying in the wilderness, and where did the voice from heaven come from at His baptism and on and on and on. In Acts did He or did He not show His body of flesh and bone to the Disciples? What is resurrection? It is the reuniting of the body and the spirit. When we are ALL resurrected we will have a body of flesh and bone like the Savior does.
When Christ says I am the first and the last He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He means many things but one most important is there is NO other that can take His place and do what He has done for the human race!
Joe1234 you need to do a lot more studying and understand what you are reading. God is the Father and Jesus Christ is His Son as the Lord was here on earth to do His Father’s will. The very meaning of I and My Father are one. Just as a husband and wife are one in purpose in raising their children but two separate and distinct individuals but again one in purpose.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:55pm“You never answered my questions either and said I was blowing smoke. I asked you specific questions about who the Savior was talking to in the Garden, and on the Cross, ”
you’re a liar…or you can’t read very well..,…here it is again..
its far more than purpose…your god is not the God of the Bible….the Father is God, the Son is God…and the Holy Spirit is God…3 persons ONE GOD….and there are no gods before, and none after (isaiah 43:10)
Jesus was talking to the Father…another person in the ONENESS of the trinity. how hard is this?
“In Acts did He or did He not show His body of flesh and bone to the Disciples?”
yeah Jesus became human…so what? He is still the eternal God.
“When we are ALL resurrected we will have a body of flesh and bone like the Savior does.
”
yeah the mormons think we’re all saved and get another chance after we die..when the bible says it is appointed for men to die once then comes judgement.
your twisting the scripture to fit your false mormon doctrine…its why mormons aren’t christians.
When Christ says I am the first and the last He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He means many things but one most important is there is NO other that can take His place and do what He has done for the human race!
uh huh you think Jesus is a created being…you’re calling Him a liar.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:57pm“The very meaning of I and My Father are one. Just as a husband and wife are one in purpose in raising their children but two separate and distinct individuals but again one in purpose.”
not a chance. so tell me how can there be ONE God…and Jesus be God, the Father be God, and the Holy Spirit be God…and…
Isaiah 43:
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.
you will never be a god…and there is only ONE GOD.
Report Post »klr56
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:01pmThank you for asking what Mormons believe. First, I am a Mormon and I know that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God and the only begotten son in the flesh. Eternal means that it exists forever. Having no beginning or end – the Alpha and the Omega. Jesus Christ was chosen in the counsels in Heaven to be the Savior of the World through the plan of His Father and our Father in Heaven. We all agreed to the plan with Jesus or Jehovah, as He is known in the Old Testament, as the Savior and Redeemer of ALL mankind. We shouted for joy (Job 38:7) and then the world was organized to allow men to inhabit it. Adam was given a choice to partake of the fruit of the “Tree of Life” and have children and “fill the earth” or to obey God’s other command to not partake of the fruit and live in the Garden without pain, knowledge, joy or children. Eve was inticed to partake and Adam seeing he would be left alone in the Garden followed her example. Thus they fell from God’s presence but then could have children. Part of the plan, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22). Jesus Christ was not an angel nor was He created but He is Eternal. His spirit body entered into His earthly body when Mary bore her first child who was literally the very Son of God and who had power over life and death. He lived a perfect life and told many people that he was the Messiah that they had been looking for but they did not believe and thus crucified Him. He paid for our
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:04pmbelieve. First, I am a Mormon and I know that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God and the only begotten son in the flesh. Eternal means that it exists forever. Having no beginning or end – the Alpha and the Omega
you sure about that??
Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers” (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:06pm“We all agreed to the plan with Jesus or Jehovah, as He is known in the Old Testament, as the Savior and Redeemer of ALL mankind. We shouted for joy (Job 38:7)”
uh we didn’t always exist, an we’re not angels…they didn’t always exist either.
oh and obviously what Jesus did isn’t good enough for mormons….you have to do works to be ‘exalted’ which is another non-biblical doctrine.
Report Post »OpenRevolt
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:14pmRESSERECTION &NON-FLESHY BODIES:
MATTHEW 22:23-30 – “23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Him and questioned Him, 24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies, having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up an offspring to his brother.’ 25 “Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother; 26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 “And last of all, the woman died. 28 “In the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? For they all had her.” 29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. 30 “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”
Report Post »klr56
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 8:32pmCorrection on my post – It was the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” that Adam was commanded not to partake of. Sorry
Report Post »JOEL1234 – and a few others appear to be twisting truth to fit the “idea” of Mormons.
Like Paul, “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ”. Mormons believe the Bible to be the word of God, when translated correctly and they believe that God has the power and ability to continue to reveal His mind and will through revelation. Those who say that the Bible is done are actually trying to command God that He not say anything else. That’s pretty elitist to me. I do not tell God what He can and cannot do. And I believe that He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He speaks to His prophets. Yes there are false prophets – they are the ones who say they know the meaning of the scriptures but deny the possibility of continued revelation. You can not know what the scriptures mean without the spirit of prophecy (2 Peter 1:20).
As to the reference in Isaiah 43:10 – Jehovah was condemning the children of Israel for worshipping gods of stone (idols). He had to teach them like little children because they did not understand His gospel after their many apostasies. Centuries later, Jesus taught that He is/was Jehovah. For that He was condemned to death for blasphemy (making yourself a God or diety). He was the only person who could never be righteously condemned for the comment because He truly was the very Son of God in the flesh.
Faith1029
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 9:24pmKATHYSTONE: “I would challenge anyone who is seeking truth to read the Book of Mormon, another testimony of Jesus Christ. Ask God if it is true.”
I will not read a book that is not from the Lord. I will read the Word of God from the Holy Bible only, which are His true Words. Any book other than the Holy Bible is false and not of God.
Revelations 22:18 And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book.
Report Post »dealer@678
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 9:51pmKLR56 , thanks for answering my question
Report Post »Trex
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 9:52pmJOE1234, you really should lose the hate. Jesus is about love. What does the bible teach about bearing false witness?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:07pm“JOE1234, you really should lose the hate. Jesus is about love. What does the bible teach about bearing false witness?”
you ‘sir’ are a liar. no hate, no false witness. post your proof, put up or shut up…or apologize…but you don’t have that kind of integrity do you now?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:11pm“JOEL1234 – and a few others appear to be twisting truth to fit the “idea” of Mormons.
”
you’re a liar. show me where I’ve twisted the truth…you cannot.
“Mormons believe the Bible to be the word of God, when translated correctly ”
in other words twisted to meet your false prophet’s lies about it. smith is a false prophet as is brigham young…I apparently can’t post those false prophecies though….they get deleted before they even appear….
isaiah 43:10 blows your multiple gods theory out of the water…you won’t become gods…there is only ONE GOD…not 3…and there will never be more than one God.
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:42amHere might be of some interest.
“When the Old Testament is read with the presupposition that it is about one God, it is assumed that all the various titles – God Most High, YHWY, El, ‘elohim, and so on – refer to the One God. But this is not the case. Texts in the Second Isaiah, who lived shortly after the changes in Jerusalem introduced under King Josiah at the end of the seventh century BCE (2 Kings 23), show that the names and the theologies were changing. Belief in the Most high God and his son YHWY was being replaced by monotheism that we now regard as familiar.”
Margaret Barker
(snip)
“He who calls to Hagar out of heaven was God, and yet He is called Angel…. The only intelligible explanation is that He is both Angel and God. Such a description cannot be appropriate and suitable to God, who is the Father, who is God only: but it can be apropriately be applied to Christ , who has been declared to be not only God but also Angel. It is obvious therefore that it was not the Father who spoke to Hagar but in this present passage but Christ…”
Noviathan
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:07am(con’t)
“Remember how Moses called the Being, who appeared to the patriarchs and often delivered them oracles written down on Scripture, sometimes God and LORD, and sometimes the Angel of the LORD, He clearly implies that this was not the Omnipotent God, but a secondary being, rightly called the God and LORD of holy men, but the angel of the Most High his Father”
Eusebius, Bishop of Ceasarea. 4th century AD.
These are two citations from the excellent scholar Margaret Barker who argues that ancient Judiasm absolutely taught Jesus as the Messiah. As the “Second Person of the Trinity”. but that these teachings were eventually altered and lost to Jews. What I find here is a very interesting distinction between two “persons”. One being superior to the other and yet both “God”.
…
“Nothing mortal man can be made in the likeness of the Most High One and Father of the universe, but [only] in that Second God, who is Logos.”
Philo in Rome.
In the link Margaret later shows how official Hebrew texts today obscure “the ‘elohim worshipping YHWY” an aprophecy of YHWY coming to anote for man. She also shows how after Christianity came, changes were made in the old Testament from “sons of God” to ‘angels”. this includes the angels of heaven which rebelled. Thus, as Barker argues, the better translation would be “sons of God” which she argues is to be understood as literal. Interesting.
http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:44amJoe;
“isaiah 43:10 blows your multiple gods theory out of the water…you won’t become gods…there is only ONE GOD…not 3…and there will never be more than one God.”
I do not know why you keep citing this scripture. It is completely compatible to Mormon faith and worship.
” 10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.’
In official Mormon doctrine:
1) Lord = YHWY = Jehovah = Jesus. Jesus is the only Savior. there is no other being by which one can be saved.
2) Before YHWY “no God was formed”. Before YHWY there was God the Father. He’s always been there according to Mormon doctrine. You cannot find any official Mormon doctrine that says otherwise. The “Most High God” is known as Elohim. YHWY is a “son of the Most High”.
3) “neither shall there be after me”. God the Father is supreme and forever will be according to official Mormon doctrine. There will NEVER be another being like Him. Similar to? Yes. Capable? Yes. but not like him. He is the most high God for the reason that He is above all.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 1:50amAlternatively. Does “neither shall there be after me” refer to idols which the Lord through Isaiah goes on to condemn just a few chapters later? It could very well be. Isaiah 43:10 does not “blow away” Mormon doctrine. Mormon doctrine, in fact, is 100% compliant to saiah 43:10. It is not compliant to your interpretation of Isaiah 43:10 and nor is it compliant to wha you present as official Mormon doctrine; but you’ve yet to show why your interpretation is 100% correct and thus “blow away” Mormon doctrine.
I’ve offered you before, at least twice, to simply ask how mormon doctrine is established. Yet I’ve yet to notice your asking. Such a simple thing and if you sincerely do not like anyone being “mistreated” than simply ask and i’ll be happy to explain it. This should help you avoid bearing false witness against your neighbor.
I’m going to bed. Peace in our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 9:34am“I do not know why you keep citing this scripture. It is completely compatible to Mormon faith and worship. ”
not a chance…and your own words prove it…
“2) Before YHWY “no God was formed”. Before YHWY there was God the Father.”
uh isaiah 43:10 totally contradicts your own statement…I mean you can’t be serious. what part of ‘no god before, none after‘ don’t you understand? you are saying before Jesus there was God the father…the bible does not say that. its like you’re telling me the sky is green.
“There will NEVER be another being like Him. Similar to? Yes. Capable? Yes”
again, what part of ‘no gods after Me’ don’t you understand? oh and what about this?
E.God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).
D.”God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
A.God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:51amjoe;
The independent clause in Isaiah 43:10 does not end with a noun but a verb. And an action verb at that. “before me was no God formed,”. That’s exactly what Mormons believe. God was not **formed** before YHWY according to Mormon worship. “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.” (John 1). In the Greek you can read, “”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with The God.”
( http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Relationships.shtml#Jehovah – Also see the following link to see how you can indeed construct the two verses of John precisely how it is mentioned here. τὸν θεόν = “The God” and ὁ λόγος = “The Word” or “God”). This passage leaves interpretation way open for idstinguishing two different beings. While “The Word” or “God” was formed, “The God” was not. “The God” was always there.
“Journal of Discourse”, “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith”, “Mormon Doctrine” as well as “History of the Church” are NOT official Mormon doctrine so please stop pretending they are. For the fourth time, if you want to know wat constitutes official Mormon doctrine and how it is created, then simply ask. I’ll be glad to explain it to you.
(con’t)
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 10:57am(con’t);
Here’s the second link: http://wesley.nnu.edu/gnt/
“again, what part of ‘no gods after Me’ don’t you understand?”
Was God talking about the divine potential of man or of idols which God soon afterward Isaiah 43 condemns?
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:10am“The independent clause in Isaiah 43:10 does not end with a noun but a verb. And an action verb at that. “before me was no God formed,”. That’s exactly what Mormons believe. God was not **formed** before YHWY according to Mormon worship. ”
darren, words mean things…you just told me…
2) Before YHWY “no God was formed”. Before YHWY there was God the Father.
so you are saying before Jesus, there was God the father.
you’re trying to explain to me what the meaing of is is…uh huh
““Journal of Discourse”, “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith”, “Mormon Doctrine” as well as “History of the Church” are NOT official Mormon doctrine ”
yeah whatever, so you never show any mormon scripture that contradicts what I posted. mormon doctrine is you can become gods…so obviously the being you call God, was not always a god, and has a god…infinite regression.
“Was God talking about the divine potential of man or of idols which God soon afterward Isaiah 43 condemns?”
there is no ‘divine potential’ in man…we are human, we didn’t exist before we were born, we’ll die, and be judged by the real God….no second chances after we die…no general salvation…no exaltation….
all these other mormon doctrines contradict the bible…I do wish you would stop trying to use the bible to justify your faith. its akin to the muslims claiming Jesus and the prophets as their own.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:16amoh and darren, in heaven….you won’t become gods, you won’t have wives, you won’t have children…you will neither marry nor be given in marriage.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:23amok darren, post your mormon scripture that refutes this…’
Apostle Bruce McConkie states, “[A] plurality of gods exist . . . there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods.”
Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, (Salt Lake: Bookcraft, 1991), 576-577.
Joseph Smith wrote, “In the beginning, the head of the gods called a council of the gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and (the) people in it.”
Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 349; quoted in Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults, (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1997), 220.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:54am[joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:48pm
the mormon jesus is a created being…not the eternal God.]
Deuteronomy 18:4 The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.
Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Nehemiah 10:35 And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the Lord:
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Numbers 8:17 For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.
Leviticus 2:14 And if thou offer a meat offering of thy firstfruits unto the Lord, thou shalt offer for the meat offering of thy firstfruits green ears of corn dried by the fire, even corn beaten out of full ears.
Evangelicals cannot bear some truths, because of their own false traditions.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:05pm“michaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 11:54am
[joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:48pm
the mormon jesus is a created being…not the eternal God.]
”
nothing you posted showed that Jesus is a created being…sorry…revelation 1 Jesus is the first and last….none before, none after…how hard is this?
“Evangelicals cannot bear some truths, because of their own false traditions.”
yeah, you’re onto us…we even added our own scripture onto the bible…and only believe the bible as its ‘correctly translated’ shhhh don’t tell anyone about the conspiracy…..
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:15pmJoe1234 has a hard time with the idea of how God can create children, call them his children, make claims that he created man in his image, have them become join heirs with Christ, have them become glorified with Christ and how God can give his children “all that he has.”
Joe1234 has a hard time understanding the many scriptures that refer to God’s followers as his children and heirs because Joe1234 is stuck on what God was talking about when he refuted false Gods.
Joe1234 is stuck on a physical number, the number one. Joe1234 is not alone in this. Joe1234 is physically minded, so he has a hard time understanding the power and purpose of God.
Joe1234 then has to get even more confused since he himself believes in at least three Gods. But Joe1234 has an answer to this because he simply lets his mind delude himself into thinking that it is ok to have three Gods rolled into one by simply calling this “mysterious” and confusing man-made doctrine (circa 325 AD) the “trinity” There, problem solved. Joe1234 believes in 3 Gods but he will say that these three are only one. You know, to satisfy the controversy.
Joe1234 therefore has to ignore John 17 where Christ prays to God the Father asking that his millions of followers may be “one with us as I am one with thee (God the Father). So Christ says that his followers can be “one” the same way “as” Christ is one with God.
Joe1234 is stuck on a confusing man-made principal. So he excludes everything els
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:29pmkmichaels has a hard time with the concept of adoption…
Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
kmichaels doesn’t understand that heirs gods.
kmichaels can’t count, and doesn’t understand what ONE means.
“Joe1234 then has to get even more confused since he himself believes in at least three Gods.”
nice lie…what about ONE do you not understand?
kmichaels is stuck on the man-made talking point about the council of nicea coming up with the trinity….
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
“We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation… [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:31pmkmichaels doesn‘t understand that the word ’one’ can have more than one meaning depending upon the context…and that scripture interprets scripture…not the lies of a false prophet.
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:38pm[Joe1234: yeah, you’re onto us…we even added our own scripture onto the bible…]
Christians added the entire New Testament books (multiple) onto the bible. Not sure that you not believing that God can add new scripture from time to time, when he sees fit, is a sign that evangelicals are not holding onto the doctrines of man.
Man is the only one that claims that God is incapable of adding new scripture. However we have a history of where God has added new scripture for at least a two thousand years. You have no logical reason as to why God suddenly hates giving his people new prophets and or new scripture.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:38pmkmichaels doesn’t understand that heirs NOT EQUAL gods.
(the greater and less than symbols did not show up)
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 12:45pm“Christians added the entire New Testament books (multiple) onto the bible. Not sure that you not believing that God can add new scripture from time to time, when he sees fit, is a sign that evangelicals are not holding onto the doctrines of man.”
yeah we did…and they don’t contradict the OT…..unlike the book of mormon which does contradict the NT.
and why do you think God would all of a sudden start using FALSE PROPHETS?? hmmmm??
Report Post »kmichaels
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:30pm[joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:35pm
“to death that Priesthood authority was taken from this earth. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to this earth once again and God gives us direction to this very day with a living prophet”
there is nothing in the bible, which you say you believe, to indicate this is true…lets talk about the mormon treatment of black people…they couldn’t become priests until the 1970s….then the mormon god changed his mind…but the God the Bible does not change his mind…same with polygamy.]
Polygamy was practiced by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob had at least four wives at once. Abraham had two or more wives. Moses had two wives minimum.
As to limited priesthood, Moses taught that only people from the tribe of Levi could hold the priesthood. That meant that the other 11 tribes were refused the priesthood.
Christ at first denied a blessing to a woman because she was not from one of the 12 tribes of Israel. He told her that it was not proper to give the meat intended for the children of Israel to dogs.
Joe1234 has only a superficial knowledge of the scriptures, at best. And those he is somewhat familiar with he abuses and misuses.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 2:39pm“Polygamy was practiced by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob had at least four wives at once. Abraham had two or more wives. Moses had two wives minimum. ”
wow a total lie…Isaac did not practice polygamy….Abraham did not either…he had concubines, not wives…Jacob did have multiple wives. you don’t know the bible very well do you now??
“As to limited priesthood, Moses taught that only people from the tribe of Levi could hold the priesthood. That meant that the other 11 tribes were refused the priesthood.”
uh ok, so why do you think any mormons are priests? do you think you’re of the tribe of levi??? obviously not. of course white mormons could be priests….not black ones, until recently.
“Christ at first denied a blessing to a woman because she was not from one of the 12 tribes of Israel.”
so you’re saying christ is ok with racism huh?
“As to limited priesthood, Moses taught that only people from the tribe of Levi could hold the priesthood. That meant that the other 11 tribes were refused the priesthood.”
then why do you think the priesthood left after the NT? hmmmm???
Report Post »Darren
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 12:05amJoe;
““The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s,” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10).”
Yup. That’s doctrine. Not too long ago when I asked you to show me biblically when Jesus got rid of His resurrected body, you said that was idiocy. Then even more recently you told Joel228 that Jesus still has His resurrected body. So, what’s the conflict?
“if you were a christian and believed that, you wouldn’t be a christian” Why am I not a Christian for having an idea about God? I do not preach it as doctrine. “I personally agree” with it, sir.
“so you do believe in multiple gods” I do believe you correctly quoted me as saying, “We can become one with the Father *as* Jesus is one with the father”. That’s godlike, is it not? And here’s something even more direct: “33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” (John 10) tha’ts a good source, isn’t it?
“yeah satan thought he could become god too”. but he failed to show either faith or works.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 25, 2011 at 8:04am“Yup. That’s doctrine. Not too long ago when I asked you to show me biblically when Jesus got rid of His resurrected body, you said that was idiocy. Then even more recently you told Joel228 that Jesus still has His resurrected body. So, what’s the conflict?
yeah it is idiocy because he never got rid of his resurrected body…now show in the bible where the father has a body…you cannot…this is totally unbiblical.
““if you were a christian and believed that, you wouldn’t be a christian” Why am I not a Christian for having an idea about God? I do not preach it as doctrine. “I personally agree” with it, sir. ”
no you would not be….because to be a christian, you must be trinitarian…believe in ONE GOD….none before , none after….so you can call yourself whatever you want, doesn’t make it so.
“so you do believe in multiple gods” I do believe you correctly quoted me as saying, “We can become one with the Father *as* Jesus is one with the father”. That’s godlike, is it not?
no its not….the word ‘one’ has multiple meaning depending upon context…and read psalm for the rest of what happened to thoses ‘gods’ gods don’t die…those gods did…
“yeah satan thought he could become god too”. but he failed to show either faith or works.
this is INSANE. angels don’t have faith…they see, they know. satan wanted to be god…just like you do. the sin of pride the original sin.
Report Post »wakeup1
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:20pmThere are Christians in Iowa ? lol jk We know rombo aint no christian conserv anyway ….skip on buddy.
Report Post »Br@dley
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:14pmron paul won the ohio straw poll. A FREAKING SWING STATE! not worth mentioning? the balze is a joke.
Report Post »Hockeydadfla
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:14pmWell this is how “front runners” act. How about we let the PEOPLE choose the nominee not the press or the elites.
Report Post »The10thAmendment
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:15pmAmen to that. Romney is only the front runner in the media and establishments eyes. The people are going to correct them shortly.
Report Post »Br@dley
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:10pmi love how the blaze didn’t report ron paul winning the ohio straw poll. IT”S A FREAKING SWING STATE FOR CHRIST SAKE.
Report Post »sizzler2220
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:03pmChristians will not vote for Romney anyway.
Report Post »qpwillie
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:15pmConservatives won’t vote for Romney.
Report Post »soundtracktowar
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:37pmHonestly havent you guys done enough to the mormons, you murdered their founder, massacred their people on more than one occasion, even issued an EXTERMINATION ORDER. against them. im not for romney,, but it has nothing to do with his religion,, im starting to hope hes the nominee so you “christian” hypocrites get pissed. fyi without mormons, you wouldnt have tv ya idiots what if you said hey, lets not vote for that guy cuz hes a jew., that sound ok? bigotry is bigotry, stop being a bigot and discounting someone because of their faith, is bigotry. imagine this,putting all your arguments aside, just say the mormons were right, how are you gonna feel? let them believe how they believe. i didnt spend 5 years in the military to defend your right to be a bigoted a$$.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:46pmyou mean like mountain meadows?
Report Post »Navysquid
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:58pmI know plenty of Christians that will vote for Romney over Obama every day of the week! Last I checked Evangelicals, Christians, Catholics (which I consider Christian as well), etc when they are out of work and looking for a job won’t care what religion their POTUS is as long as he can turn the country around and get the economy moving.
Report Post »THAT is what we are voting on not whether someone believes in this God or that God or no God.
qpwillie
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:58pmsoundtracktowar,
Report Post »I won’t be voting for a pastor. I’ll be voting for a president. Romney is not a strong conservative.
Darren
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 9:33pm“you mean like mountain meadows?”
John D . Lee was executed by firing squad for his role in giving the order to murder men, women, and children of the Fancher Party at mountain Meadows. Who was executed after being tried and found guilty of murdering Joseph Smith? What about the murder of Mormon men, women, and children at Haun’s Mill? What happened at Mountain Meadow’s was despicable and pure evil. What say ye about how Mormons were treated?
While Soundtracktowar seems a bit over the top and frankly, unprovoked, his point, I think, was that persecution against the mormons was an ugly atrocity. I myself do not care if someone does not vote for a canddidate because the said candidate is mormon. If one doesn’t want to vote for candidate X because said candidate is Mormon: fine, then don’t vote for said candidate X. All I have to say is that when the election comes down to Romney versus Obama, good luck not voting for Romney because Romney’s Mormon.
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 10:13pm“What happened at Mountain Meadow’s was despicable and pure evil. What say ye about how Mormons were treated?”
I don’t approve of anyone being mistreated.
Report Post »justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:08pmYou dont approve of anyone being mistreated Joe? But you feel free to call names and throw your religious weight around on this thread….you were more than happy to throw that mountain meadows massacre comment out there without learning the history..you flap your mouth, shooting your buckshot everywhere hoping that something sticks. They say that there are fools and idiots in every religion….you may have made the case here today….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 4:38pmjustin…looks like the truth hurts…you mormons aren’t as holy as you make out to be.
Report Post »justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:12pmJoe – i have watched you throughout this whole thread and all you seem to have is derision for Mormons, and continue to call anyone who disagrees with you a liar, stupid, moron, etc. I get it that you disagree with them. When I disagreed with you, you tried to call me out and ‘make’ me a Mormon so you could do the same to me. All I tried to do here is point out that you and mr. michael will disagree and continue to do so ad nauseum because the fundamentals of your belief in who God is, who Jesus is, etc. are so disparate. You won’t convince him, nor he, you. And anyone else on this thread to shows even a minute shred of sympathy towards Mormons and calls out those who trash them gets called names by you as well. If you think that is ‘evangelizing’ then you are sadly mistaken. Just drop it already!
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:19pm“Joe – i have watched you throughout this whole thread and all you seem to have is derision for Mormons, and continue to call anyone who disagrees with you a liar, stupid, moron, etc.”
only people that start calling me names…I just try to communicate in a way they can understand.
“And anyone else on this thread to shows even a minute shred of sympathy towards Mormons and calls out those who trash them gets called names by you as well”
oh and you are SO much holier than I am… I notice you have no complaints about the mormons trashing me of course…what a surprise…sigh
so why don’t you post where I trashed someone before they trashed me.
Report Post »justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 6:56pmcalling people names is “just communicating in a way they understand”?? I called you out Joe because you called ME names. I am not professing to be holier than you, or anyone else here. You are the one with the ad hominem tu quoque attacks. I don’t agree with how both of you guys have gone at eachother here. I even said so. You will never agree with Mormons, and they won’t ever agree theologically with you. But you can be civil and work together towards the common political goal of removing the Great Disappointment from office. Sadly, this type of religious bigotry will probably be the downfall of this election season and we will find Obama back in office again….cling to your guns and religion dude, cause that may be all he leaves us with…
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 7:07pmoh yes you starte off SO respectful to me…
“justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 3:19pm
@Joey12345678…..whatever…Look dude – we are seeing the age old argument between “
then calling me ‘joey o’ whatever dude.
you may want to take the log out of your eye first…just sayin…
Report Post »justin.blake
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 7:51pmLove the christian parable about the ‘log’…love it! Although it got there because you and your diatribe rammed it in there in the first place….Help! ….Cant…see…some dude named Joe just smashed a theological freaking branch in my eye cause I don’t see eye to eye with him….no matter how many times I cry stop, he keeps doing it thinking I will someday agree with him…and then he wonders why I don’t “see” the truth….I will now go lick my wounds and whimper in a corner and reconsider my religious beliefs….
Report Post »joe1234
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 8:33pm“some dude named Joe just smashed a theological freaking branch in my eye cause I don’t see eye to eye with him”
if you want respect you gott a give it….how hard is this?
and where did I hurt my poor little snoogums feeling at hmmmm??
poor dear…you can dish it out, but you can’t take it LOL
Report Post »Bumr50
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 5:01pmRomney should skip the convention, too.
Report Post »suzy000
Posted on October 23, 2011 at 7:24pmI agree.
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