Should Worshippers Be Able to Bring Guns to Church?
- Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:28am by
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Editor’s Note: This is a crosspost from Beliefnet.com. It was composed by Rob Kerby, Senior Editor, Beliefnet.
Bring guns to church? Pastor Ken Pagano provoked a firestorm when he invited members of Louisville, Kentucky’s New Bethel Church to celebrate the 4th of July and their Second Amendment rights by bringing their firearms to church.
Pastor Ken Pagano (Photo Credit: Beliefnet)The national news media opened fire at the very idea. After all, why should nice church folks need guns to defend themselves?
However, two years later as the nation recoiled from a series of shootings at the Family Research Council in Washington, D.C., a Colorado movie theater and a Wisconsin Sikh worship center, Black Christian News raised the question again: “Should Christians Be Allowed to Carry Guns to Church?” On the international news section of its website, BCN notes a number of overseas attacks on worshipers, including “Leaders in Nigeria Warn of Anarchy After Church/Mosque Shootings.”
Wisconsin Sikhs await word about their loved ones (Photo Credit: Beliefnet)“America today would be unrecognizable to our Founders,” said Liberty Institute President, Kelly Shackleford. “Our First Liberty is facing a relentless onslaught from well-funded and aggressive groups and individuals who are using the courts, Congress, and the vast federal bureaucracy to suppress and limit religious freedom. This radicalized minority is driven by an anti-religious ideology that is turning the First Amendment upside down.”
Kelly Shackleford (Photo Credit: Beliefnet)
“As dark as this survey is,” said FRC President Tony Perkins, “there is much light. The secularists’ agenda only advances when those who love liberty are apathetic. Let this be a call to stand for religious liberty in the United States.”
While they were unveiling their Survey of Religious Hostility in America, a group calling itself Military Atheists and Freethinkers, which has been pressuring the Pentagon to appoint atheist chaplains, was denouncing the American Legion for using religious language.
“It’s difficult to see military service co-opted to promote religious values above American values,” chastised the atheist group’s president, Jason Torpy, calling for the Legion to repudiate a recent statement by a Legion official. The atheists said they were offended by this declaration by Ken Governor, the American Legion’s Legislative Commission Chairman:
Jason Torpy (Photo Credit: Beliefnet)
“Activists aim to distort and twist the core values of patriotism, morality and religion that gave birth to our nation, under God,” said Governor. ”They aim to kick God out of our public squares.
“The nation’s cultural, moral and patriotic values have been under attack for decades, a disheartening trend that continues today. Prayer has been removed from schools. The U.S. flag is no longer protected from desecration.
“References to God on U.S. currency, in the Pledge of Allegiance and on public monuments have been challenged by a minority of voices whose vision for America is far different than that of our founding fathers.”
So, asked Torpy, how dare the Legion commission chairman make such offensive and hateful statements? Torpy advised that such talk about God drives away new American Legion members.
Such hostility to faith is growing, said the Family Research Council and Liberty Institute on the website presenting their report: “The Survey of Religious Hostility in America is a collection of more than 600 cases, detailing religious bigotry throughout America – most of which have occurred within the past 10 years. We invite you to view this powerful document that offers stunning insight into the attacks against people of faith across our nation, and we ask you to stand with us as we continue the important work of defending our most precious liberty – our freedom of religion.
“Hostility against religious liberty has reached an all-time high, and the attacks are increasing at an unprecedented rate. America’s First Liberty – the freedom of religion – is being pushed out of public life, our schools, and even our churches.”
Angela Hildenbrand (Photo Credit: Beliefnet)
For example, notes the website: “Angela Hildenbrand, valedictorian of her class at Medina Valley High, wanted to say a prayer during her graduation ceremony. A fellow student from an agnostic family filed a suit to prevent Hildenbrand from praying. The federal district court judge issued an order prohibiting Hildenbrand from using words like “Lord,” “in Jesus’ name,” and “amen.” The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit reversed the ruling and allowed the prayer. On June 6, 2011, Hildenbrand gave her speech, which included a prayer.
The study was released as the Family Research Council’s security guard, Leonardo R. Johnson, continued to recover in the hospital after an armed man entered the group’s Washington, D.C., office last Wednesday, took a gun out of his backpack, told Johnson “I don’t like your politics,” and opened fire, shooting Johnson.
The wounded FRC guard wrestled the gunman to the ground, held him until help arrived and was later praised as a “hero” by District of Columbia Police Chief Cathy Lanier for preventing the shooter from entering the FRC offices and wounding or killing anyone else.
“Guns are allowed in churches in twenty states as part of their ‘Right to Carry’ laws,” writes Susannah Griffee for the New Yorker magazine. “Versions of them have been enacted in more than forty states.
“In the 1920s and 1930s, many states adopted laws that prohibited the unlicensed concealed carrying of a gun. Vermont is the only state that did not adopt any statutes prohibiting or regulating the concealed carry of guns, and has no specific prohibition against carrying guns in churches.”
In Thomaston, Georgia, the Rev. Jonathan Wilkins told Adelle M. Banks, reporting in USA Today, that his congregation should have the right to carry guns into worship services to protect the congregation.
“Wilkins’ Baptist Tabernacle and a Georgia gun-rights association are challenging a new state law that prohibits weapons in houses of worship,” she noted. “Recently, state legislatures in Georgia, Michigan and Louisiana have been caught in the crossfire of the debate between gun rights and gun control as they consider allowing weapons in houses of worship.
“Though gun-rights proponents think they have both the First and Second Amendments on their side, they also cite the rights of religious organizations as property owners. Opponents, meanwhile, worry that having weapons in worship is part of a slippery slope to permitting them everywhere.
Shortly after Georgia specifically banned guns in church, Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal signed a law permitting them in churches, mosques and synagogues.
“Meanwhile, other states are mulling whether to scale back restrictions on weapons,” noted Banks. “In Michigan, gun rights activists are pushing for a change in the law that would make it possible to carry guns in worship without prior permission from a presiding official.”
Why? “Mike Thiede, spokesman for Michigan Gun Owners and a member of a Baptist church,” reported Banks, “said he spoke to legislators in favor of changing the law after a church secretary was assaulted and a pastor was tied up during a robbery.”
During 2009, Dr. George Tiller was shot in the foyer of a Kansas Lutheran church, the Rev. Fred Winters was killed in his Illinois pulpit and the Rev. Carol Daniels was found dead in her Oklahoma church building.
“When you see things like that happening over and over again, churches are saying, ‘What are we supposed to do?’” Jeffrey Hawkins, executive director of the Virginia-based Christian Security Network told Banks.
Laura Cutilletta, senior staff attorney of the San Francisco-based Legal Community Against Violence, told Banks that many states remain silent on weapons and worship – but guns don’t “have a place in public, especially places like churches and bars and places where a lot of people are congregating. An unintentional shooting could end up injuring many people.”
“Laws about weapons in houses of worship vary widely,” wrote Banks. “Some states forbid firearms in religious buildings but others permit them unless a congregation has posted a sign disallowing them. Still others say they’re permitted if the pastor, priest or rabbi gives the OK.”
But, why would anyone feel the need to be armed at church?
Because American politics have become so polarized, says the FRC’s Perkins. He said that “reckless rhetoric” aimed at groups like his had motivated the gunman’s attack at his group’s headquarters. “He singled out the Southern Poverty Law Center,” reported Theo Emery and Michael S. Schmidt for the New York Times, “which characterizes the Family Research Council as a hate group for its political positions on homosexuality.
No longer do Americans agree to disagree, it seems. Instead, some attempt to brand those who debate with them as “haters” – and attempt to ban them from further public discussion.
The gunman “was responsible for firing the shot yesterday that wounded one of our colleagues and our friend Leo Johnson,” Perkins said, but he “was given a license to shoot an unarmed man by organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center.”
FRC shooting scene (Photo Credit: Beliefnet)In a statement on the SPLC’s website, spokesman Mark Potok called Perkins’s accusation “outrageous.” His group recently branded a number of Christian groups which oppose same-sex marriage on moral grounds as “hate groups,” a label they say is a smear – and which they have indignantly demanded the group recant.
The FRC says the American family as an institution is under attack – and that same-gender matrimony weakens not only American families, but U.S. society as a whole.
So, how should people of faith respond? By arming themselves? By being prepared to shoot back – to defend their churches, synagogues and other places of worship with firearms?
The rash of U.S. shootings have “reignited a dialogue on gun rights,” reports Black Christian News – noting that “a new national survey finds that Americans overwhelmingly believe that the constitutional right to own and carry a gun is as important as their constitutional right to free speech.”
That Public Religion Research Institute survey finds 68 percent of U.S. residents rank the right to own guns right up there with “freedom of speech and freedom of the press.”
But there’s a dramatic divide between Democrats and Republicans – with only 28 percent of Democrats supporting gun rights compared to 65 percent of Republicans and 78 percent of Tea Party supporters.
The survey also found that most Americans oppose guns in church – with another sharp divide: 55 percent of Tea Partiers support the right to carry concealed weapons to sites of worship, compared to 9 percent of Democrats.
Two years ago in Louisville when Pastor Pagano offered his congregation the opportunity to bring their guns to a Saturday evening service, “about 200 people took him up on the invitation,” reported the Christian Science Monitor in one of the more restrained news accounts.
The little church is still recoiling from all the national attention. ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox and CNN news reporters as well as journalists from the New York Times, BBC, MSNBC, Time, the New York Daily News, USA Today and London’s Daily Telegraph targeted the quiet congregation and its local pastor, none of which expected the mob of reporters brandishing microphones and cameras.
From the pulpit, “We are wanting to send a message that there are legal, civil, intelligent and law-abiding citizens who also own guns,” the Rev. Pagano told the folks in the pews. “If it were not for a deep-seated belief in the right to bear arms, this country would not be here today.”
The press leveled both barrels at the earnest young clergyman. The New York Times went for the racial angle: “The bring-your-gun-to-church day, which will include a $1 raffle of a handgun, firearms safety lessons and a picnic, is another sign that the gun culture in the United States is thriving despite, or perhaps because of, President Obama’s election.”
“A pastor in Kentucky is redefining the tradition of wearing your Sunday best to services by encouraging his congregation to strap on holsters and bring their weapons to church,” fired ABC’s Emily Friedman.
“The guns must be unloaded and private security will check visitors at the door,” reported the Associated Press.
“Pastor,” fired CNN’s John Roberts, “I was doing a lot of looking around this morning at the reaction to the event you had on Saturday night and some of the critics were asking things like ‘Would Jesus carry a weapon?’ And ‘What would Jesus think of a pastor who beat plow shares into swords?’”
“Marian McClure Taylor, executive director of the Kentucky Council of Churches, an umbrella organization for 11 Christian denominations in Kentucky, said Christian churches are promoters of peace, but ‘most allow for arms to be taken up under certain conditions,’” reported MSNBC as if the council of churches was relevant, never mind that it only represents America’s smallest and most liberal denominations while the largest – such as the Roman Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention and the Assemblies of God, with which New Bethel Church is affiliated – shun the organization at the state, national and international levels.
In Aurora, Colorado, a mass shooting occurred at a Century movie theater during a midnight screening of the film “The Dark Knight Rises.” There was no armed security guard on duty, according to officials. The gunman, dressed in tactical clothing with multiple firearms, killed 12 people and injured 58 others.
At the Family Research Council office in Washington, D.C., a similarly armed gunman was halted at the front door by the security guard – who was shot as he subdued the attacker, but prevented anybody else from being killed or wounded.
A few years ago, a grim-faced Martin Sheen, with an American flag behind him, appeared in a commercial attacking the idea of legislation that would allow individuals to carry “hidden handguns” in, among other places, churches.
“But, the truth is,” observes the American Way website, “that making it legal to carry concealed weapons in churches is not as crazy as Sheen and his anti-Second Amendment, anti-self-defense friends at Handgun Control, Inc. would like us to believe.
“In September 1999, Larry Gene Ashbrook walked into the Wedgewood Baptist Church in Ft. Worth, Texas, with two guns. He murdered seven people, injured seven others and then killed himself. Two video tapes showed Ashbrook calmly firing his guns. The Acting Police Chief of Ft. Worth, Ralph Mendoza, says these tapes show this cold-blooded murderer committing his massacre in a ‘methodical manner,‘ standing there where he ’fired shot after shot after shot,’ pacing back and forth.
“Ashbrook was able to carry out his slaughter at a leisurely pace. Why? Because none of his victims, or anybody else in the church at that time, were armed. Thus, they were sitting ducks and never had a chance.
“In 1993 the Rev. Michael R. Duesterhaus, a Roman Catholic priest at Holy Spirit Catholic Church in Annandale, Virginia, woke up at 3 a.m. to the sound of someone breaking into his study. The priest took out a 9mm pistol, flipped on a light and ordered the intruder to freeze and lie on the floor. The intruder stopped and then reached for his belt. Deusterhaus fired. The man paused, apparently wounded, then ran into the hall. The priest pursued him and fired again, at his feet. The priest then fired a third time, deliberately wide of his target. The man ran out the side door escaping with a small amount of cash.”
“The Washington Post noted that this incident “contrasts sharply” with the June, 2000, “brutal slaying” of Monsignor Thomas Wells at the Mother Seaton Catholic Church in Germantown, Maryland, who died after being repeatedly stabbed.”
The difference?
One priest was armed. The other was not.
“The idea of a priest or bishop owning a handgun shocks many Catholics,” observed Washington Post staff writer Bill Broadway. “But some do, whether for hunting, target practice or self-defense, and church law allows it. But theologians and ethicists differ on whether priests should ever point a weapon at another person — and fire.
“Duesterhaus, then 28, shot at the intruder, and he and three other priests living in the Holy Spirit rectory were unharmed. Wells, 56, who stayed alone in the rectory at Mother Seton Catholic Church, died after being stabbed repeatedly in a violent struggle.
“Would the outcome have been different if Wells had owned a handgun? John M. Snyder, 60, a Catholic layman and chief lobbyist for the Washington-based Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, believes so,” wrote Broadway
“On June 9, the day after Wells’s body was found, Snyder released a statement saying Wells ‘most likely would be alive today if he’d had a loaded handgun and knew how to use it.’
“Washington Auxiliary Bishop William E. Lori objected strongly,” reported Broadway. “He called the suggestion that priests be encouraged to own handguns for self-defense ‘unworthy of Monsignor Wells’s memory.’ The Rev. Aaron Joseph Coty, administrator of Mother Seton parish, finds abhorrent the idea that priests — or anyone, for that matter — own handguns. ‘You don’t need weapons to defend yourself,’ he said. ‘There are other ways. You can talk with the person, reason with the person, get into a fistfight.’
But the Rev. Robert J. Rippy, chancellor of the Diocese of Arlington, has a different view. “A priest, like any other citizen, has a right to self-preservation,” he told the Arlington Catholic Herald after the Duesterhaus incident. “A person has a right to preserve their life from an unjust aggressor.”
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What do you think? Should worshippers be able to bring guns to church? Take the poll:
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Article courtesy of Beliefnet.com, the distinct online resource for inspiration and spirituality where you’ll find thousands of inspiring features, uplifting stories and access to other great resources.
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Comments (250)
Slipstick
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:07amI asked my Pastor for permission to carry in church, citing that if I were a criminal, church is a prime place I would attack. Minimal security, at least some cash in the offering plates and (mostly) a ‘turn the other cheek’ mentality. He pointedly refused to answer my request, in spite of several incidents of strangers roaming the halls during worship. In lieu of a refusal, I started using a deep concealment holster made (oddly enough) by a Christian manufacturer. The holster maker has a cross as part of their company logo, and I can’t praise their workmanship enough. Some of the ushers actually followed my lead. Afterward, I felt a lot more secure when I was there. Sad state of affairs when this kind of precaution becomes necessary.
Report Post »jungle J
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:15amonly a sissie would ask a pastor.
Report Post »Slipstick
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:18amIn Michigan, to be ‘legal’ one needs permission. It’s a misdemeanor to carry in a prohibited area. Note I did it anyway, in lieu of a refusal.
Report Post »inblack
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:21amThis is not a question of should I carry in church, it is a question of whether I should remove my gun and leave my gun in the car when I go to church. I carry everywhere I go. If I go out to lunch after church, I’m going to be carrying my gun, if I go to the mall, I will have my gun.
Demanding that an armed citizen disarm for church makes church a place of opportunity for criminals. Do you think that the Batman theater that did not allow guns, Virginia Tech University that did not allow guns made those people safer? No, they were disarmed and helpless.
Report Post »I support God's Israel!
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:29amI have been carrying my CCW gun for about 8 years now, My Pastor knows it and we do not tell anyone. SO, TRY TO STEP FOOT IN MY CHURCH AND DO SOMETHING STUPID (I stand in our entrance foyer and stay there for most of the service, watching people and greeting them as they come in). I stand at the door of our auditorium as an Elder overseeing everything going on.
Once, a 22-year old ran towards our Pastor screaming at him like the devil himself, which he was, and I was there in 2 seconds flat, pulling that guy to the floor and had him subdued. The service went on while I walked the guy out and waited for the Police. They handcuffed him and took him to our local Hospital for observation.
I went to see him later that week and talked to him for a long while. It took about 2 weeks, but I brought that young man to Christ and now he is part of our congregation.
Not everyone will have a great story like this. It was NOT me, it was Jesus who brought this man to his knees. BTW: the young man had a knife he was going to use and no gun, so I never had to draw my gun. I am big enough and experience in combat (ex Seal), so I was able to stop him.
There should be at least 3 people in your Church, preferably ELDERS, who carry a concealed (legal) gun (no one should know, but the Pastor and the others who carry) and who stand at the back of the auditorium or near the Pastor at EVERY SERVICE. YOU WILL BE DOING THIS FOR THE LORD and therefore, it is Service for the Lord.
Report Post »Angel_light
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:30amthat’s nice. I would absolutely carry anywhere; even in church. Yes it’s sad that we have to resort to having to protect ourselves even in a place of worship but I deem it necessary. BTW, does this manufacturer have a website? I would REALLY love to check it out…
Report Post »NOT A CRAZY
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:36amI wouldn‘t ask my pastor to start with but I dang sure wouldn’t attend a church where the pastor refused to answer or if the pastor said no.
Report Post »I support God's Israel!
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:39am@SLIPSTICK:
BTW, you may want to consider going to a more CONSERVATIVE church. Anytime a Pastor refuses to allow you to protect the congregation (discreetly), means HE DOES NOT FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION EITHER.
I did attend a church before the one I attend now and that Pastor would not allow me to carry a gun. I THEN TOLD HIM I WAS LEAVING HIS CHURCH. That church has a Saturday food bank and clothing closet so they can give to the poor. A guy came in one Saturday, (a year after I left), robbed all the people there (he was a druggie), took the food and the petty cash box, and pistol whipped one of the people handing out food. That person was in critical condition for 6 weeks.
If I had been there, it would never have happened.
The ONLY reason I did not stay and carry my gun anyways is because the Pastor told the congregation 1 Sunday about my offer and then they put it to a vote. Almost all, (out of about 300 people, only about 50 were for me) told me to leave the church if I was going to carry. YES, THEY ALL KNEW I WAS A NAVY SEAL. Yes, they all knew I had my CCW yet NONE OF THEM UNDERSTOOD THAT I WANTED TO PROTECT ***THEM***. God uses man sometimes to accomplish service for Him. DUH. They told me that God would protect them. DUH. This may be true, but as I said, GOD USES MAN SOMETIMES TO ACCOMPLISH SERVICE FOR HIM.
Eventually, because of the incident of robbery and assault, the church folded. Everyone was afraid to return. DUH.
Report Post »Redwing1
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:42amLets ban all guns from church. Hmmm…..money is collected at church. Sweet, easy pickings. Not in my church. Come to my church in FL and try to hurt anyone in that church, you will be met with concealed force. Have a nice day. If a criminal knows there are no guns in an area, where do you think they will go?
Report Post »airforce79
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:46amI have a hand gun carry permit and I carry every where I go. There is no need to have a carry permit unless you are going to carry your weapon. Also it must be loaded. If you carry concealed no one is going to know you are carrying. I carried a weapon in the military for 20 years when I was flying transports. The reason was for anti hijacking. I would not feel dressed without my weapon. You start selecting places to carry and places not to carry and you might not have your weapon when needed. Having your weapon on you in church is no different that carrying anywhere else.
Report Post »Detroit paperboy
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 12:00pmIt’s kill or be killed in obamaville………..
Report Post »Individualism
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 12:04pmSihks should of have guns to protect themselves so the answer is yes, there are religious zealot nutjobs out there who will choose a target and attack and if people are armed he will be destroyed with less people being taken away with him.
Report Post »Amarilloan
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 12:07pmDon’t ask! Don’t tell! If trouble never rears its ugly head, no one will be the wiser.
Report Post »Dr Vel
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 12:35pmWhy all the debate? Peter founded the church. Peter carried a sword while He traveled with Jesus. End of story!
Report Post »LuvsYeshua
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 12:52pmI wonder if the Blaze realizes that by forwarding this question to their website they are creating an issue that is actually a NON-issue. Now that they have continued this non-debate, MSNBC and Fox will continue it further. Then eventually it will become something state governments will be pressured into doing by the left. That’s how these things come about.
It‘s no one’s business if the pastors and elders allow weapons. Much like heaven, attendance is voluntary.
Report Post »Fla Del
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 1:11pmIn Florida it is legal to carry in church. You don‘t need the pastor’s permission.
Report Post »Just keep it out of sight and do not talk about it. No one will know until that bad day when
you are called upon to save lives.
Be aware, be trained.
Chuck Stein
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 1:25pm@ Amarilloan:
“Don’t ask! Don’t tell! If trouble never rears its ugly head, no one will be the wiser.”
Also, this saying applies: “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission.”
Report Post »RACEREV
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 7:31pmI would not like to think that there was not someone(s) in the congregation that were not legally able to carry in order to protect themselves and the rest of us from an insane person intending on committing a hate crime in the church.
Report Post »A youth pastor friend of my in KY tells me that his Sr. Pastor encourages his people to carry in church. At coffee some time ago they talked about asking people as the came in if they were packing and if not then have some loaner guns to give them. Not an original idea but novel none the less. There are a lot of us Pistol Packing Preachers who do it legal.
Fredhead
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 8:58pmA number of years ago, I happened to hear a rather profound statement from a radio talk show host, as he stated that “Historically speaking, God has never been in the habit of defending those that have no intention of defending themselves” G. Gordon Liddy
Report Post »Think of him what some may, I always thought him to be a very honerable man.
Fredhead
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:02pmhonorable, pardon the mispelled word,
Report Post »mus jes be the rednek in me ‘yall !
Fredhead
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:06pmeither that or the publik edjumakashion I gots years ago
Report Post »jwt
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:54pmAs it would appear that the God of most churches is unable to protect his people, someone has to help Him out
Report Post »harpazo
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:14pm@ANGEL_LIGHT: I think slipstick is referring to http://crossbreedholsters.com/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx I have a SuperTuck Deluxe and love it! It is so comfortable. Crossbreed offers a free two-week trial on their holsters but I don‘t think you’ll send it back.
Report Post »Wolf
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:30pmYes, it‘s definitely a sad day when people aren’t safe even in a church- and perish the thought of declaring ‘sanctuary’ in a church these days: there’s no way any dotgov JBT would honor it. Still, when it comes to carrying, I carry 24/7 everywhere and the only one who knows it is me. I don’t ask- I’ve already got permission with God-given rights, the Constitution, and my own best interests and those of my loved ones. Should my pastor, or anyone in the congregation, ever decide that weapons aren’t allowed in the church, I’d fid another church to attend. Sad days for America when we can’t defend ourselves and our freedoms no matter where we are.
Report Post »sophillyjimmy
Posted on August 28, 2012 at 3:16amWith all these atheists, anti religion, menal midgets running around being against one religion or an other there is no question that anyone who can legally carry conceal should carry their firearm when they go to worship. If only one had a CC permit and a side arm, many of the Sikhs that were killed and injured would still be here now.
Report Post »To be a sitting duck for some wacko to shoot my family when they worship our God is not my way of being a good Christian, my way is to protect my loved ones no matter wehere we go and if I am not permitted to carry my weapon then I will not go where I am not wanted, it is as simple as that.
retiredcop393
Posted on August 28, 2012 at 9:08amOne really nice benefit of being a retired police officer in Michigan is the exemption from the state’s target-rich environment, er I mean gun free zones that I have on my concealed pistol license. It continues to amaze me, this continual wide-eyed, childlike belief that EVERYONE will leave their guns in their vehicles, etc. just because some place was declared to be “gun free” by law. The people who advocate for these zones are a true danger to society as they refuse to recognize that people with violent or other illegal intentions don’t care about following the law and that many (all?) police departments today are extremely understaffed and REACTIVE (responding after they have occurred) to violent crimes that occur in these gun free zones.
Report Post »Big Bobby P
Posted on August 28, 2012 at 11:32pmPray for Mark Craighead (owner of Crossbreed holsters) and his family. If you have not heard he recently passed away.
Report Post »starman70
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:07amIt’s a sad commentary on the state of affairs in America today. YES, parishoners should be allowed to carry concealed weapons to church.
Look, not only at the recent examples cited in the article, but remember the lunatic who, shortly after the Columbine incident, walked into 2 Colorado churches wounding and killing parishoners. At the second church, there was an armed security guard who kept the incident from becoming much worse than it was. She shot the perp and stopped the slaughter.
Examples from all over the world show that iit is becoming almost necessary to protect ones self even in church.
Don’t let the arguement that gun control would eliminate the problem sway you. The adage that “If guns are outlawed, only the government and outlaws would have guns” is by far and away the truth. Look at Sweden and the mayhem that the lunatic who shot up the capitol area and killed some 70 people in a retreat managed to do, even though Sweden has extremely strong gun control laws. A murderer, intent on invading a house of worship, a private or government facility, and shooting as many as possible, will get armaments somewhere. Gun bans won’t stop him. He will find guns on the black market and use them no matter what the law says.
I hope that even if you are morally opposed to carrying a weapon to church, if someone invades your church, synagog or temple, some member of your parish will be armed and keep it from becoming a slaughterhouse.
Report Post »Alky
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:08am“But are American places of worship under attack?”
Report Post »No, gun-free zones are under attack. If the sign on the door said this is a concealed carry zone, it would be the safest place on the planet!
I support God's Israel!
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:45amIf you have a CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) license, you can carry a gun anywhere you want. JUST DON’T TELL ANYONE YOU ARE CARRYING. When the time comes that you HAVE to use that gun in your Church, THINK TWICE before pulling it. In other words, YOU’D BETTER BE TRAINED IN NOT ONLY HOW TO USE THAT GUN, BUT HOW TO THINK UNDER DURESS. If you are slightly nervous or timid, DO NOT CARRY THAT GUN because more than likely, you will shoot the wrong person or use it when no necessary.
I have even seen Seals make mistakes, so never think you are above that. NO ONE IS.
If my Pastor at this current church would have refused me permission to carry my gun in the church, I would have left that one and gone to one I liked and JUST NOT TOLD ANYONE I WAS CARRYING.
The 3rd time is the charm for me.
IF you have a CCW, BE HUMBLE and the Lord will direct your path.
Report Post »Be arrogant with that gun and IT will destroy you.
cwflick45
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 7:33pmEveryone should read the article(s) at http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/the-bible-and-self-defense. The writer cites specific bible verses and explains that Christ was an advocate of self defense and that he didn’t come to replace the Old Testament but to fulfill it. If you have a complete understanding of Biblical verses then you’ll understand that self defense (and community defense) is not only acceptable but is a moral requirement.
Report Post »MOLLYPITCHER
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:04amI always take mine to church, especially to church. Thats where I believe a terrorist is likely to target. Nice thing is, it fits right in my Bible case!
Report Post »MetalPatriot
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 12:54pmThat’s the main reason any of us should consider it.
Have proper/professional training and regularly practice at a range. As the Seal (I Support God’s Israel) said, anybody can make a mistake under stress. Notice any peace officer accidents lately? We’re human, even professionals can get it wrong. Though, I think most people that carry have enough respect for what the weapon can do; they typically don’t draw the weapon as a first response.
About the article itself: “But are American places of worship under attack?” Of course, primarily Christian faith. At least, that’s what I see. Probably all religions are under attack. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
It seems like the author was combining concealed carry at church AND churches under attack. A different title might have made this more clear. The examples in support of carrying were great. But, I’m biased…lol!
ericnnnghm@msn.com
Report Post »havetoask
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:04amI have a CHL. When and where I carry it is pretty much my decision. If I carry a concealed weapon to church how would anyone know?
Report Post »NOT A CRAZY
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:25amI have a hard time figuring out why some people have a hard time understanding the meaning of concealed. If I carry my gun into church, the bank or the theater no one is going to know because it is concealed. The real discussion on here should be about concealed carry on school campuses. Why is it that so many states prevent people from legally protecting themselves on school campuses. These states force people to break the law with these stupid laws. Either that or people have to be sitting ducks in the No Gun zone.
Report Post »I support God's Israel!
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:47amCHL? You mean a CCW?
Report Post »OngoingFreedom
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:53amThe permits come in many different names. CCW, HCL, HCP, LTCF, CWP, etc.
Report Post »Kaoscontrol
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:03amToday on the Blaze there is a story about a woman killed in a church parking lot by her daughter who was practicing driving. Clearly this violence needs to come to an end…Let’s ban all automobiles from church parking lots! Every day more people are killed on our highways than by guns… Let’s ban the cars altogether!
Report Post »TexVet61
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:15amyour a moron… obviously an Obama supporter because you lack the common sense to look at the facts of a given situtation. If liberals were suing people at every turn for driving, or defacing car dealers because of cars then this would be possble, but with Obama posing as a christian but his actions say is likes puckering up to the sphincter of Muslim Extreamist, and with this action and the actions of athiest/OWS/ACLU etc…. CHRISTIANS are being targeted, so yes.. carry, carry often, carry big and aim true.
Report Post »inblack
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:31amPeople don’t kill people, CARS KILL PEOPLE!
I have a No Car sign on my driveway. No Knives. No Stress. No Rocks. No Gravity!
Report Post »MetalPatriot
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 12:56pmTexVet61…
He was joking. It’s sarcasism, as if the reply beneath yours. Most of us here get your point. ; )
Report Post »Skee
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:02amUtilizing a God given right in the house of God. Makes sense.
Report Post »Magyar
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:00amI have this debate in my head all the time— to carry or not to carry in church—
Lakeland, Florida 2011…. unarmed worshipers were sitting ducks when Jeremiah Fogle walked in and opened fire…. devastating results.
Bottom line— Sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t…and the debate continues!
Report Post »inblack
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:47am@MAGYAR
Why a debate? Do you consider your gun evil?
Look I don’t carry selectively, I carry everywhere. The odds of you guessing WHEN you will want access to your gun is 0%. Once you decide to carry at all, you should carry everywhere.
We will never help our brainwashed friends if we do not tell them we are carrying. If I go over to a friends house, I tell them, I carry a gun everywhere I go, it is not “cocked” and I have never had to shoot someone – I just always carry, no big deal. I carry so that I can defend myself or help others if a bad guy attacks. I also explain that my gun is safer on me than lying around my house or sitting in my car. Since they know I’m a normal guy, they start to think, maybe guns aren’t hair trigger bombs waiting to go off.
Report Post »Oldtimer2
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:26pmIn Black, you are exactly right. There is no point in having a CCL if you don’t keep it with you at all times, yes even in church. (With the way things are going with all the wing nuts on the left, especially in church.)
Report Post »The Jewish Avenger
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:00am100% Yes, thank yoiu!
I am relieved…
For those that are confusing “Thou shalt not kill” with self defense I found a great web site regarding this…
http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com/
Inform yourself.
Report Post »Charles
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 11:26amThe old “Thou shalt not kill” nonsense is what happens when pot smoking hippies who reject God and the bible try to use our beliefs against us. The accurate translation from the bible in its original language says not to commit murder. Self defense and war time combat are not what it refers to.
God gave us the right to self defense.
Although it may make some people comfortable to delude themselves into thinking it is not the case – there is a war going on for this countries heart and soul. Fortunately the battles are for the most part being fought in the ballot box and the courts. We need to keep it that way and when it comes to us in the form of violence we are on our own to be prepared.
Report Post »aggiebrewer
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:58amYES. My church has no signs saying I cannot carry (legally). As a CHL holder in my state the ability to carry at church is determined by the church. THE FACT IS, concealed handgun license holders are not the ones that go monkey nuts and shoot people at churches etc. We do however, shoot back.
THE KOOKS LOVE GUN FREE ZONES CAUSE THEY WILL BE UNOPPOSED.
Report Post »bbabics
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:57amIf a gun crime is committed within an anti-gun establishment, the victims should sue the establishment as it prohibited lawful-abiding citizens from arming and protecting themselves. Period. I hope people begin to do this as this appears to become increasingly more common.
Report Post »RachaelAdams
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:52amThis article is way too long. I got the gist of it by the 5th or 6th paragraph down. I see much trouble with even Christians today. Jesus teaches us love and turning the other cheek. The Old Testament teaches us not to kill.
Matthew 22:37-40 says: Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind’. This is the greatest and the most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments.” I think this sums up pretty much what Jesus wants from us. From a personal point of view, I have great faith that God will take care of me and with a security system such as He, what on earth could I do to protect myself any greater than that? If I am to die, God will allow it and I shall die and be better off for it. I want to live under God’s will, not mine.
We as a nation need to be able to exercise our freedoms freely, which include bearing arms. If an individual is so misguided that he thinks he needs to protect himself instead of God, then he should be allowed to bear his arms publicly, no matter where he may be. If it offends, he can hide it. I’ve always said, “people kill, guns don’t”, and I haven’t changed my mind. It is usually the minority that are like a clanging bell….they go on and on until they win. Too bad Christians don’t exercise
Report Post »CHANGE IT BACK
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 12:37pmI agree, but your response was way too long.
I love you like a brother though!
Report Post »RedNeckMormon
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:52amAs a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and conceal carry holder I have concerns. If Brother Romney gets elected, and I truly hope he does, I can see a time when he might makes policy decisions that might be unpopular with certain people. Being unable to get close to him, they might choose occasion to take it out on a local congregation.
There was an incident in Ca. where a man who thought his family was mistreated entered a church on a Sunday and shot and killed the local Bishop.
It is against church policy to have weapons in the church building. I agree with Shoot2Stop. Concealed does mean concealed. It is far better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
If Bro Romney becomes President Romney. Violence against Church members and Church buildings will increase. It is a sad truth we have learned from our LDS history. I for one will be ready and willing to protect the sheep of my flock…!!!
Report Post »Jenny Lind
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:09amExperience is a hard teacher. I think we always have had members of the church who carry for work and were “on call” and came to meetings with guns. Never thought much of it, I thought we were safe. Then came the caution that we would be, as Christians, not even as LDS always, would be persecuted for our faith. I was still small then, but the church has long memories and the ability to understand the scriptures reguarding the end days. Every Christian will come under persecution, it’s started, and will only get worse. I plan, even as a seasoned citizen, to be able to defend mysef and loved ones if I can. We all need to think about it, decide if it can work for us, and arm if we feel it is right for us individually. I, me, personaly, think churches will become targets. The part that is scarey is it won’t just be Muslims, but our own countrymen hating relion, and they seem to be ramping up.
Report Post »Libertyluvnmomma
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 12:07pmBrother Romney??
that’s a stretch.
Let’s try Brother Harry Reid.
YES, it sounds exactly the same!!! YAY for slick pollyticians.
P>S> Romney wants dead babies too! Yep in the case of rape. lucky for him people given life get to decide.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:49amThey don’t need to take guns away from people, when instead they will just take people away from guns.
Report Post »momrules
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:49amEvery human being has the right to defend themselves and others with deadly force if need be. Yes, law abiding, peaceful people have the right to carry a gun in church. Carrying a gun deters the crazy people among us whether at church or at home.
Have I mentioned that I despise the SPLC ?
Report Post »perry1980
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:48amif you have a CHL you should be allowed to bring a gun into a church
Report Post »objectivetruth
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:46amI grew up in an area where taking a gun to church was common place.Never once felt threatened.Almost everybody carried,its normal.Why are they making such a big deal of it?Its as normal as breathing in rural communities.We have a disconnect in this country.its not just the obvious either[conservative/liveral].The city dwellers versus rural america is at the heart of it.Forgive me for not elaborating on this.I could write a thesis piece on it and still wouldn’t feel as though I had covered it all.
Report Post »shogun459
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:45am“Because none of his victims, or anybody else in the church at that time, were armed. Thus, they were sitting ducks and never had a chance.”
If your against the right to carry you’re for more killings like this, and yes it is black and white.
Report Post »shogun459
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:42amyesterday “America, love it or leave it.”
Now “America, support it or Get the **** out!!”
Report Post »termyt
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:42amActing in self defense does not run afoul of loving ones neighbor. More, those who demand their neighbors not defend themselves is running afoul of brotherly love.
Do you think that churches will have shoot-outs of differences in theology? Is it more likely than someone with an ax to grind going into a church and shooting?
Here’s a shocking idea – let the church decide for itself. I know no Christian is a reasonable and free from corruption as our politicians, but I still think we can trust them do do what is best for their own congregations.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:50amEven Tiller The Baby Killer could have been potentially protected by an armed parishioner.
Report Post »With the likes of even more armed and hate filled Floyd Corkins wondering around out there, I think it would be a good idea to carry in church.
Sirfoldallot
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:42amAtheist have a solution to this , no 1 should be able togather & wroship, case solved. Weirdos
Report Post »Shoot2Stop
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:41amConcealed is concealed! Don’t ask – Don’t tell.
Should the worse comes to pass, the anti gunners, in the flock, will be thanking those armed parishioners.
Report Post »DumpBarack
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:39amNothing says you can’t carry in church and my wife and I already do.
Report Post »Toltepeceno
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:03amSome states do.
Report Post »Bunk
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:37amI’ve been carrying my gun to church for years and I know of at least 6 others that do the same. There are many attempts to do harm in churches across the nation and every year. Our church leaders recognize this and encourage those of us that have permits to carry. Texas!
Report Post »Spirit 72
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:44amJust prior to War for American Independence a Brittish squad took over a church, locked the (unarmed) occupants in, then burned it. Learn from the mistakes of the past.
Report Post »joeslick
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:49amI’m with ya Bunk. I always carry to church, and everywhere else I go. I also know that several churches in the Atlanta area have very large and well armed security forces. I don’t blame them a bit either. I think we have a right to worship in peace and in a secure environment.
Report Post »watersRpeople
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:37amI always tell people if it gets bad enough that I need a gun, I’m sure there will be plenty of them just laying around.
Report Post »Welcome Black Carter
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 10:08amNote to these cowards who choose “gun free” zones…
Don’t think you can you can inflict your sinfull act in a Baptist church. You will meet resistance, and Jesus. Almost at the same time.
Report Post »jimbo_from_suwanee
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:35amDuring the first communion that Jesus conducted at the last supper, the apostles were packing at least two swords:
Luke 22:35-37
New King James Version (NKJV)
35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’[a] For the things concerning Me have an end.”
Sounds like Jesus is saying pack heat if you think you need it.
Report Post »jimbo_from_suwanee
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 9:41amadding v 38:
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”
Report Post »Welcome Black Carter
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 1:03pmI read a thread where a wife was displeased her husband was slipping his carry gun in it’s holster while getting dressed for church. She asks ” You don’t think Jesus can handle his own security?“ He replied ” Yes he can. As a matter of fact, for todays service he is providing several well trained armed individuals. I’m one of them”
Report Post »TheSoberEye
Posted on August 27, 2012 at 2:10pmThat was the scripture reference I was looking for, thanks.
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