Study: Religious People Trust Atheists About As Much As They Do Rapists
- Posted on December 2, 2011 at 8:53am by
Billy Hallowell
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It’s no secret that many people — especially those with religious affiliations — have a lower level of trust for atheists and non-believers.
Perhaps it’s the notion that those who lack a faith have, from the view of believers, no basis from which to secure a moral framework. Or maybe it’s just a lack of familiarity with those who lack spiritual guidance. Either way, polls and studies continue to make this pattern evident.
Yet another round of research is corroborating this notion, but with a bizarre twist. A new Canadian study claims to be one of the first psychological looks into the prejudice that many say exists against atheists and non-believers.
According to National Journal, researchers at the University of British Columbia and the University of Oregon have conducted a series of studies that further expose the deep distrust that exists against atheists. Considering that non-believers are a growing minority, this is certainly an interesting trend.
A belief in a higher power, specifically one that is built on a moral code that is laid out in written form (i.e. the Bible), provides followers with moral parameters. Atheists, who lack such a code, are often seen as potentially being open to anything; they’re essentially “unpredictable” in the eyes of adherents. HotAir.com’s Allah Pundit, though, refutes this theory:
That logic, that nonbelievers are less trustworthy because there’s no fear of damnation keeping them on the straight and narrow, gets thrown at atheists a lot and it never fails to make me nervous about the person who’s throwing it. There always seems to be an implicit threat to it — that if that person should lose his faith and the accompanying dread of hellfire, he might be capable of anything. That’s not how it works for most of us atheists, but if you think that’s how it might work for you, give the rest of the population a heads up if/when you start to have religious doubts so that we can prepare for your impending rampage.
Some may contend that the discrimination that is purported to exist against atheists is overblown, but a Gallup poll (via Reason) from earlier this year seems to show an inherent bias — at least when it comes to electoral politics. People, as you will see below, are less likely to vote for atheists than they are for women, blacks, Baptists, Jews, Mormons and gays:
“There’s this persistent belief that people behave better if they feel like God is watching them,” said Will Gervais, a doctoral candidate in the social psychology department at UBC (he also was the lead author of the study). “So if you’re playing by those rules, you’re going to see other people’s religious beliefs as signals of how trustworthy they might be.”
The paper (PDF copy can be read here), which recaps Gervais’ research, is published in the current online issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. The piece includes six studies, which are all designed to measure peoples’ perceptions regarding how trustworthy non-believers are.
National Journal reports:
The first study asked 351 Americans from across the country to compare the trustworthiness of an atheist and a gay man, since both represent groups often described as threatening to majority religious values. They rated atheists significantly higher than gay men on distrust, though lower on levels of disgust.
The second study recruited 105 UBC undergrads —they purposely targeted a more liberal sample from a less-religious nation — to test whether distrust of atheists is more pronounced than distrust of other groups, including Muslims. The students read a description of an untrustworthy man who pretended to leave insurance information after backing his car into a parked vehicle and were asked to say whether it was more likely the man was either a Christian, Muslim, rapist or an atheist. People were far more likely to say he was either an atheist or a rapist and not part of a religious group. They did not significantly differentiate atheists from rapists, something Mr. Gervais found disconcerting.
Gervais, who is an atheist, called these revelations “pretty shocking.”
“With rapists, they’re distrusted because they rape people. Atheists are viewed as sort of a moral wild card,” he explained.
One of the other six studies also apparently found that people are more likely to hire someone for a job that requires higher levels of trust if the applicants appear religious. Atheists, though, would be more likely, according to the study, to be hired for jobs that require a lower level of trust.
(H/T: HotAir.com)
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Comments (310)
capecodsully
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:18amI have known Christians who treat other people badly and I have known atheists who were very respectful of others. I was an atheist at one time and was always respectful and trust worthy. I don’t know any Christians who distrust atheists.
Report Post »I do not trust people who want to take away my Constitutional right to freedom of religion, which is happening in America today and I do not trust a religion that says I will convert to their way or I will be killed, I believe they will do what they say. Both are examples of evil. Not all atheists want to deny others freedom of religion.
Brizz
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:09amAbsolutely agree. Just because someone doesn‘t believe in any particular religion doesn’t make them evil or not trustworthy.
Report Post »Prolife Conservative Atheist
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:20amVery well said. Couldn’t agree more. Thank you! I have fought and will continue to fight for our Constitution, our values and religious freedom.
Report Post »AvengerK
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:39amI would temper the headline by clarifying it with “militant” atheists. I dont’ trust them at all because their spite and neurotic hatred of religion, poisons anything they offer. I’ve found that they twist hermenuetics in their invoking of the biblical texts. They mix the old and new testaments haphazardly without acknowledging or understanding what’s normative to christians and jews. They tend to invoke very ignorantly formulated history of the church. Example? Militant atheists often invoke “Easter” as being of pagan origin thus…Christians are hypocrites and misled for observing it. What these idiots don’t know (because their keepers dont’ tell them) is that the name Easter comes from the German “Oester” and is indeed coopted from a pagan occasion..but…the older and original Christian cultures (Greek, Latin/Italian, French) still today use variations of “pascha” as the name for the holiday (derived from the Hebrew “pasach” for passover, because of it’s proximity to the events leading to the death and resurrection of Christ..the first believers of christ were of course jews). So how does this support my claim? Quite simply…the use of “Easter” by atheists to dilute christianity by offering that it‘s pagan in origin is an ignorance they perpetuate for themselves because the original christian cultures don’t use “easter” at all..thus..no paganism can intelligently be imposed on the holiday. Easter is simply an English term from the more mod
Report Post »hi
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:15pmI agree with you. I don’t feel that way, as the article says, about atheists. I have a strong walk with Christ. I have atheist friends.
Report Post »garyM
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:35pmMaybe you have known people who call themselves Christians that treat people badly or maybe your definition of treated badly doesn’t line up with the Biblical definition of badly which in the long run is all that counts! All Christians are born as atheist! They must be born again from above!
Report Post »I respectfully disagree with your assessment which really doesn’t matter, the only thing that matters of which of our assessment is in agreement with God!
garyM
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:38pmOnce upon a time a person could be in agreement with the constitution and God too, things has changed, now a choice has to be made. I pray I always have the courage to choose to agree with God and not man!
Report Post »Bad_Ashe
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:57pmThere are certainly good atheists out there, and in theory I have little problem with a non-believer holding office — agnostics or “soft” atheists. But that being said, the more militant the atheist, the more their ideology typically lines up with socialism, communism, and utilitarianism. Even the self-proclaimed “humanists” tend to fall into these categories.
There are exceptions to this rule, but this is is a historical truth that can’t be denied. When voting for the atheist, you may also be voting for his political bedfellows. Let us also not forget that, historically speaking, an atheist(s) in high position of governmental power is more likely than not to advocate mass murder or totalitarian government.
Given all of that, I’m not sure I would want to take that chance.
Report Post »sasquatch08
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 2:41pmAnd just because someone DOES believe in a certain religion doesn’t make them any less of a potential bigot.
When atheists launch a crusade or declare jihad or whatever non-believers would call such ridiculousness I’ll start to worry.
Report Post »AvengerK
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 3:28pmSASQUATCH..you haven’t been paying attention…Atheists already launched jihads. Stalinist Russia, Hitler’s Germany, Khmer Rouge, Maoist China..all twentieth century societies…. all vehemently humanist….all responsible for killing and incarcerating hundreds of millions of people opposed to them or deemed “unwanted”.
Report Post »SgtB
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 3:30pmI don’t even need to read this story to comment. I grew up in a family that didn’t go to church, however, we were disciplined when we needed it and taught right from wrong. My cousins on the other hand who grew up in the church every Wednesday and Sunday family are all hypocrites and teen mothers and fathers. Going to church or believing in a God does not make one any more moral than the next person. In fact, if you are a bible thumper then it sends me the signal that you are self righteous and unwilling to even put your own beliefs up for re-evaluation and that you will never change from the arrogant person you are today. Also, those of you who go onto a college campus and yell scripture RIGHT OUTSIDE the quite study area are not converting anyone and only driving people from your religion.
Report Post »JRook
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 4:15pmWell said and accurate. For many religion is just another mechanism to rationalize their behavior. The “we are all sinners” excuse for doing something wrong or immoral. Some form of the Golden Rule resides in all religions and is without question the hardest thing for anyone to truly follow. You can find the most devote believer and most radical atheists who cannot adhere to this most simple and straightforward rule. It is the most evident when you see someone who claims to be an individual of faith shade the truth, cheat on their taxes by hiring illegals or making cash transactions, but separate it by saying it was business. You are either a person of character or you are not. And the true measure of that is what you do when no one is looking or in situations where you might personally suffer by having integrity and adhering to ethical business practices.
Report Post »Hossua
Posted on December 3, 2011 at 2:04am@professional.lewis It is true that many of the framers were deists, but while they were not christians they were sympathetic to christianity. The Jefferson Bible is pretty telling for those of you that want to claim you have the same beliefs as the founders.
The man denied the divinity of christ, and I doubt he was alone in that respect.
Report Post »palerider54
Posted on December 3, 2011 at 1:42pmI also absolutely agree. Actually I have more respect for the atheist that does not attack my belief simply because he does not believe than I do fake Christians who only go to Church because it is what they think good people should do but do not really truly believe in Jesus and the Gospel message. God even said that we should be hot or cold, that he would spew the lukewarm from his mouth.
The atheists I don’t trust are the ones who think they must attack the religious to justify their non belief.
BTW, Atheists that believe in evolution really belong to the religion of man. The THEORY of EVOLUTION should not be taught in schools unless the THEORY of CREATIONISM is also taught along side it.
They can no more prove evolution than I can prove God exists. It takes more blind faith to believe in evolution than it does an all mighty God.
Report Post »Restore the Republic
Posted on December 3, 2011 at 2:47pmI too am a libertarian who does not believe in a deity of any kind. (you would probably label me an atheist… but i’m also an a-astrologer, and a a-easterbunnyist.. etc… so label me whatever you want…
But if you find that someone is trying to take away your rights to think what you want,or believe what you want… you can also label me a defender of your rights. I don’t judge anyone for believing anything… My conclusions about the world around me are my own business. You would do well to trust someone like me. I’ll defend your rights even though I completely disagree with them. can you say the same? if not, you might be the one not worthy of trust instead of me.
Report Post »mocon
Posted on December 3, 2011 at 5:17pmAtheists have been attacking Christians for years. Of course they can’t be trusted.
Report Post »Howyinthehills
Posted on December 3, 2011 at 6:26pmI have seen two paths to atheism, one throught the collectivist movement and one through a more freedom loving philosophical path (a path shared by our founders, although they may have been Christian). This latter path terminated with Herbert Spencer. This path was renewed and placed on a much firmer philosophical base by Ayn Rand in the last century. The term Atheist is too limiting for many non-believers. I would propose a term “amystic,” meaning no belief in any form mysticism, God based or other. As many of the writers on this topic have indicated, a persons morality is not based on his particular religion. Christians have certainly behaved abominally in the name of their religion at times as have atheists professing no religion. One has to assess each individual he deals with as to that persons morality no matter what religion ( or lack of it) he professes.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:16amIn a letter to John Adams, Jefferson wrote, “To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise” (August 15, 1820). In saying this, Jefferson was merely expressing the widely held Deistic view of his time, which rejected the mysticism of the Bible and relied on natural law and human reason to explain why the world is as it is. Writing to Adams again, Jefferson said, “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter” (April 11, 1823). These were hardly the words of a devout Bible-believer.
Jefferson didn’t just reject the Christian belief that the Bible was “the inspired word of God”; he rejected the Christian system too. In Notes on the State of Virginia, he said of this religion, “There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity.
Report Post »rpa1121
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:27amOther signers of the Constitution.
John Quincy Adams – In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity (An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport at Their Request on the Sixty-First Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1837 (Newburyport: Charles Whipple, 1837), pp. 5-6.)
Josiah Barnett – Called on the people of New Hampshire . . . to confess before God their aggravated transgressions and to implore His pardon and forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ . . . [t]hat the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be made known to all nations, pure and undefiled religion universally prevail, and the earth be fill with the glory of the Lord. (Proclamation for a Day of Fasting and Prayer, March 17, 1792. )
John Dickinson – Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity (From the Last Will & Testament of John Dickinson, attested March 25, 1808.)
Report Post »capecodsully
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:29amThere are many Christians today who do not believe what Jesus taught. They do not believe in the power of the cross. Like the saying goes “You can lead a horse to water, you can not make him drink”. Some choose to live as Jesus said, some choose to suffer.
Report Post »rpa1121
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:36amGunning Bedford – To the triune God – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost – be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore – Amen (Funeral Oration Upon the Death of General George Washington (Wilmington: James Wilson, 1800), p. 18, Evans #36922.)
Elias Boudinot – et us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer (The Life, Public Services, Addresses, and Letters of Elias Boudinot, J. J. Boudinot, editor (Boston: Houghton, Mifflin & Co., 1896), Vol. I, pp. 19, 21, speech in the First Provincial Congress of New Jersey.)
I love how atheist use Jefferson and Franklin as their examples. They really were the least religious of the founders but far from atheists. And certainly not the only signers…
Report Post »LookTowardsTheLight
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:44am@capecodsully
Then there are obviously not Christians.
Report Post »cdavis2009
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:55amIt has been proven, more than once, that Jefferson never said those things. The last quote came from someone (unknown author) in the early twentieth century. Get your facts right before posting.
Report Post »NeoFan
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:55amOh yes the founders hated the idea of god and laws and cleanliness. They were anarchists and wanted to establish a country of welfare recipients that would tax the rich of the world to promote idleness and sexual perversion. They wanted to defecate on the horses and carriages of anyone that would promote any moral standard above free murder and rape. I know this because I went to government schools and universities all my life. If someone that has never worked for a living like a professor says it then it can never be questioned.
Report Post »the wireworker
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:58amMessrs. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, and Stephen s. Nelson
A Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, in the State of Connecticut.
Washington, January 1, 1802
Gentlemen,–The affectionate sentiment of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature would “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father
Report Post »the wireworker
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:00amI reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.
Th Jefferson
Report Post »Jan. 1. 1802
tbb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:05pm@RPA1121
Sorry I just have to clear something up. I think you are referring to Josiah Bartlett from New Hampshire. He didn’t sign the Constitution but he did sign the Declaration of Independence. And he is my ancestor.
Report Post »JRook
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 4:56pm@rpa1121 And why would it matter at all whether they were or were not Christians or men of devote faith. To think that matters in either direction is to ignore the subject matter at hand. They were constructing a union, a government that would not be influenced by the church in a manner that had existed in England or other European countries. Liberty and Justice for all is the equivalent to the Golden Rule. I’m more impressed with individuals who can hold tight to the Golden Rule than I am with those who can site or repeat verses. Many time to rationalize actions that are in direct contrast to the Golden Rule. Religion for the majority is just another mechanism to rationalize their beliefs or behavior. And for that matter those who actually believe in Liberty and Justice for all. My father used to say I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death your right to say it. Don’t hear that much anymore. It is not the lack of correct ideology that is this countries problem. It is the lack of citizenship and real participation in the wider community.
Report Post »COFemale
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:34pmQuite trying to pass off a snippet of this quote as his disdain for Christianity. See you all can’t even tell the truth when it comes to a quote. I don’t know if it was you or someone else who tried this before and I posted the entire quote.
SO NO YOU CAN’T TRUST ATHEIST, THEY LIE ALL THE TIME.
Report Post »COFemale
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:54pmOkay, this was a different quote than the one I thought I responded too awhile back. My mistake. It turns out this is not even a Jefferson quote. Even the Jefferson Monticello website says this quote can’t be found in any Jefferson papers and minor parts of words he used in a different quote is pasted into this quote to make it appear true.
So the one thing that didn’t change is SOME ATHEIST LIE!
Report Post »REMEMBER TRUTH HAS NO AGENDA AS DOES DOWNTOHELL!
AmazingGrace8
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:14amWhen every human being stands before the creator, it will be a one-sided conversation. It will not be, “Lets Make a Deal”, it will be “Here Is The Deal”.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:19amIt will never happen and to believe it will betrays your child-like gullibility.
Report Post »AmazingGrace8
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:32am@Down the well
Remember, God loves you.
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:36am@downthewell You remind me of the ridicule that one guy got when he wanted to go sailing…..what was his name again…….Oh yeah, I remember now……it was Cristopher Columbus. Turns out the world was round, who knew?
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:36amThe deal is we are ALL guilty. We are ALL condemned to hell. Period. The ONLY way out is to claim your free pardon through Jesus Christ. That is why we are here; to determine if we accept or reject that free gift. You have until your last breath to make that decision. It is better to make it earlier in life, my biggest regret is that while I always held a belief in God I did not make my decision to surrender all to Christ until my mid 30s. I wasted much time.
As far as this story, I know many worthy atheists that I trust more than many Christians I know. I tend to take people at face value. That said, the belief that our morals come from a higher power and are not just an accidental side-effect of evolution certainly puts the theist at a logical advantage. An atheist that lives by a moral code is not being consistent with his evolutionary beliefs; survival of the fittest and all that. It should be a dog eat dog world and the objective should be to try and be the biggest and baddest dog. Screw anyone else (except maybe your immediate family) and do anything to advance yourself and your offspring. Since there is no higher power there are no absolutes, everything is just an accident, and there is no reason why you should not destroy others to get ahead.
Of course atheists will argue this position, but the only moral values an atheist would place on himself are ultimately of his own creation and therefore hold no real world value.
Report Post »rpa1121
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:40amI asked this of another Atheist but did not get a response. So, I want to know how you think it all started? We both have to say “the beginning was always there”. Either God always existed or that far away galaxy where the bang happened always existed, so that is a moot point.. Or did everything come from nothing?
If not by God’s hand, how did we get eyes? Were they black and white then evolved into color? How did the iris know it was time to stop opening and therefore not let so much light in as to burn out the retina? Have you seen the diagram of the eye? The choroid, the aqueous humor, the optic nerve, the sclera, etc. Seriously, how?
DId the heart just start pumping sending blood out the skin or were the blood vessels already created, I’m sorry, evolved enough to hold the blood in place? How did all the species know to reproduce? What about the big bang actually caused a bird to sing? Are the planets just luckily moving around each other? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
If we evolved based on needs, why do we not have wings? Birds figured out how to grow them. Butterflies did too. Or did we evolve based on just dumb luck so we got no wings. Crap, do we get a do over so I can get me some wings?
I believe this was all Gods design so I am asking seriously your explanation. I am not saying I have all the answers with my faith in God. I know HOW it happened, but not WHY he does everything he does. But I am curious HOW you think it all evolved so
Report Post »capecodsully
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:42amDOWNTHEWELL – Be careful, demons hide out in wells, waiting for their appointed time to reappear.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:54amTroll Trainer used to masquerade as “beckisnuts” before the knuckleheads that run this website shut down the nickname flaw here. Troll Trainer, when you did that just to stir up trouble, you yourself were behaving like a troll. Jesus would approve of that Troll Trainer, and since you believe in god…UH OH!
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:05amdownthewell (beckisnuts)
It is true! I did use the name you were using and posted stupid, asinine things to make you look like an even bigger idiot than you are. It got many laughs and it certainly upset you so bad that you carry the scars to this day! It was awesome! I trolled the Blaze’s biggest troll.
So why are you hiding behind yet another identity? Why can you not stand up for who you are? Are you ashamed of yourself and your posts? It would seem so.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:16amOOPS!! LOL “Jesus would NOT approve of that Troll Trainer. My apologies…
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55751455@N02/5520352054/in/photostream/
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:23amBeckisnuts, You are correct in that Jesus would not approve of it. But He forgives me of my sins. He forgives you also, all you have to do is accept that forgiveness! He has already paid the penalty for anything you may do, all you have to do is get on your knees and accept Him into your heart and life. You can do it Beckisnuts!!! Do it now my friend, get on your knees and ask God to show Himself to you. Ask Christ in, allow Him to take control of your life. You can be a good person, you don’t have to be a bitter troll. Ask Christ in and He will show you all the places where you are going wrong.
Join us Beckisnuts. Get on the right side. Do it today, do it now. You do not know how long you have here, this is the only thing that matters.
Report Post »AmazingGrace8
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:41am@trolltrainer
I will make this short and sweet. I hit rockbottom at age 53. I got down on my knees and prayed, “Lets Make A Deal”. At age 55, December 30, 2001, I was sitting in a pew of a church I had been going to off and on for 20 years and the sermon was, “Our Purpose: To Glorify God”, and I had my own road to Damascus conversion and “Here Is the Deal” and the Holy Spirit, the helper, lives in me to this day. Both of us say we wasted alot of years, but you and I know…..In God’s Time. God Bless you. Jesus Christ is Lord. Romans 1:16…. Acts 28:28.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:55amLOL…Troll Trainer here is an excellent example of the folly of religious belief. He behaves in a manner which runs counter to the Christan narrative and then claim that even though he tells lies here, is mean-spirited and devious (and that’s just a small sampling of his personality – imagine how he conducts himself in real life) it’s all forgiven by a long dead Jewish fellow named Jesus. Wow. That’s some fantasy he has there. Live in a dishonest hateful way (like Glenn Beck) and then pretend it doesn’t matter.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:21pm???
I never lied? As far as being “mean-spirited”…well…I am being good natured in my picking at you. I bear you no ill will and do not want to cause you any damage or abuse. But I do not have to pretend to like who you are or what you represent either. You act like an idiot in here, this last post is a perfect example. You play these childish games for your own entertainment. Was I wrong in playing the game with you by assuming your name? Yeah, I was wrong. But I would do it again!
What is the Christian narrative? You pretend you understand but you have no clue. Like most atheists you think in a “reward/punishment“ system that relies on ”being good” to get to heaven. Other posts in this article address this and I too wonder why, despite clearly being told the plan of salvation, people just cannot grasp that salvation is NOT by works.
Can I be mean and devious? Sure, absolutely! I am just a sinner, just like you or anyone else. But being Spirit led I try to make up for these shortcomings, I try to correct this behavior. If someone cuts me off in traffic I may curse them under my breath initially, but within seconds I forgive them. As I forgive you your stupidity. I want you to have eternal life with me. I do not know you but I want you to be saved. I do not want you to burn in hell for eternity. But this does not mean I will not confront you or mess with you. Get a clue. :-)
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:21pmHeh, alrighty then. It is your eternity. One way or another your soul will exist forever. If I am wrong about that? Nothing lost, I am simply worm food. If you are wrong? Burn, baby, burn.
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 7:12pm@ Trolltrainer. I think you’ve inspired me to change my handle to Trolltrainer trainer.
“The deal is we are ALL guilty. We are ALL condemned to hell. Period. The ONLY way out is to claim your free pardon through Jesus Christ. That is why we are here; to determine if we accept or reject that free gift. You have until your last breath to make that decision. It is better to make it earlier in life, my biggest regret is that while I always held a belief in God I did not make my decision to surrender all to Christ until my mid 30s. I wasted much time.”
And your proof of this paragraph being true is biblical texts? We can’t even prove Jesus actually existed or that jews were really slaves in egypt. Maybe both are true, maybe both are not. Then you deal with the question of supernatural even. You need much training in clear thinking. You speak your statements as if they are facts when in fact the truth is, they are not necessarily facts.
Report Post »Rakshasa
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:56pm@TIMOTHY_REID
Who knew the earth was round before Columbus?
His name was Eratosthenes, and he used the difference in the angle of the sun at summer solstices to calculate the size of the earth to within a few percent. Not bad for someone who only had sticks and a guy hired to count the steps to the equator.
This idea of a round earth was also familiar to many sailors of the time, as they had noticed how ships seemed to rise up from the horizon.
I assume you are now ready to relinquish your faith, as it should be rather clear to everyone you hold it out of ignorance?
Report Post »rpa1121
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:10amJust the first few lines show what the founding fathers really believed. Notice the references to the Creator, Natures God, created, etc. I am sure they meant that in the most “atheist” way possible. OK, whatever…
“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
The last line of the declaration of independence says “And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.”
Did you read that Professional Lewis? “And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance of Protection of Divine Providence.”
I said in another post and will say it again: This is not about you (or maybe even some founding fathers) be atheists. It is about the truth. And the garbage you are spreading is NOT even close to the truth.
Report Post »1957hm2000
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:58amI am a Christian, but I am smart enough to know that is ridiculous.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:53amJefferson was just as suspicious of the traditional belief that the Bible is “the inspired word of God.” He rewrote the story of Jesus as told in the New Testament and compiled his own gospel version known as The Jefferson Bible, which eliminated all miracles attributed to Jesus and ended with his burial. The Jeffersonian gospel account contained no resurrection, a twist to the life of Jesus that was considered scandalous to Christians but perfectly sensible to Jefferson’s Deistic mind.
Report Post »Jaycen
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:38amMoronic, but typical. Have you never seen the “Jefferson Bible”? It’s the one where he specifically highlights where Jesus speaks.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:46amAnd? Jefferson was also in church every Sunday. Are you?
As far as his being a Deist, I suspect that like Franklin his beliefs changed over time. In any case it is a moot point. What does either of their personal beliefs have to do with anything?
Report Post »InversionTheory
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:11amPeople who accept appeals to authority are moved by such things.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:15pmJaycen, you ignorant worm (gee, name calling is fun!) you missed the point completely. Jefferson removed the hocus pocus aspect of Christianity in his version of the bible. That was the point, not that confused nonsense you shared here. Off you go.
Report Post »rpa1121
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:47pm@LTB. Looks like they just accept, by FAITH, that it all happened somehow, Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah:
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, “Have faith in God.”
Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he (Jesus) said unto him, “Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.”
Luke 7:50 And he (Jesus) said to the woman, “Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
Luke 8:25 And he (Jesus) said unto them, “Where is your faith?” And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
And the list goes on. It is not that Atheists don’t have faith, it is just what their FAITH is in. Science, Which really means Scientists. And that really means Man…
Report Post »TRONINTHEMORNING
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:52amAtheists make me laugh as they refuse logic and truth–they feel they are above the simple truth of the existence of God…
Report Post »Steelhead
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:59amwhat God,the one that you happen to believe in? over a billion people would disagree with you
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:00amYou are really confused or maybe you’re just dishonest and lying to yourself. It’s believers in the supernatural that lack reason and reject logical, rational thought. You know that already of course.
Report Post »THE-FINAL-ACT
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:16amNot believing is the same as witchcraft.
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:23am@steelhead You have a point. over a billion people would probably disagree with the term “God”, as it is usually referencing a specific theological ideology over others. They would not however disagree with the idea of a higher power than themselves regardless of what they may call it. Unless of course you are stating that 1 billion of the world population is Athiest. At the last count worlld population is approx 7 billion with only an estimated 2.3% (161,000,000) being of the Athiest religion. Which is it?
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:29am@downthewell Thats just a silly thing to say. Logical thought is requisite of belief in what you refer to as supernatural if it is ever to figure out how it works. You can’t name one scientist of any study, that has discovered or figured out something that has not followed the steps of first believing in that which could not be proved, having faith in that belief, and then progressing to understand it further until the point at which they discovered whatever it is they may have discovered. Go ahead, try….
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:30amTimothy – the lack of belief in superstition is not a religion. When you claim it is, you appear foolish. If there was a god, why did that god ignore the human race for close to 200,00 years while we wandered around on this planet in our current form? ANSWER: because the whole thing was created by men a few thousand years ago.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:41am@down..of course atheism is a religion, it has its own world view, its own creation fairy tale, that racist fable of evolution, and you have faith there is no god..you have no proof of that at all…
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:45amTimothy, your logic is nonexistent. Substitute Santa Claus for “supernatural” in your statement and you’ll see why:
“Logical thought is requisite of belief in what you refer to as Santa Claus if it is ever to figure out how it works. You can’t name one scientist of any study, that has discovered or figured out something that has not followed the steps of first believing in that which could not be proved, having faith in that belief, and then progressing to understand it further until the point at which they discovered whatever it is they may have discovered.”
God is not real. Satan is not real. Demons are not real. Angels are not real. They are ideas, just as Santa Claus is an idea. They are fictional characters. Imagination is great but you have to know where reality begins and fantasy ends.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:48amSteelhead, here’s how Paul (the guy who wrote most of the New Testament) responded when he was asked that same question by Athenians who worshipped numerous gods:
Ac 17:16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.
Ac 17:17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.
Ac 17:18 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
Ac 17:19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?
Ac 17:20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean.”
Ac 17:21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
continued…
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:49am…continued
Ac 17:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.
Ac 17:23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
Ac 17:24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
Ac 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.
Ac 17:26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.
Ac 17:27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
Ac 17:28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
continued…
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:50amcontinued…
Ac 17:29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill.
Report Post »Ac 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Ac 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
Ac 17:32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.”
Ac 17:33 At that, Paul left the Council.
Ac 17:34 A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.
Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:54amthe courts have ruled already that Athiesm is a religion and affirmed that ruling in a seperate court. So you’re flat out of luck on that one. And lastly you ask why such a being would abandon his own for any period of time…… That higher power has given us free will and the ability to make our own choices. Along with that comes the inevitability that wrong choices will be made. It is then our responsibility to correct them of our own free will. The rules that were laid out to us are being followed by all parties. I’m fairly certain that if Mr. Milton and Mr. Bradley sat down and played Monopoly, they would follow the rules they came up with…..
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:57am@downthewell
“Timothy, your logic is nonexistent. Substitute Santa Claus for “supernatural” in your statement and you’ll see why:
“Logical thought is requisite of belief in what you refer to as Santa Claus if it is ever to figure out how it works. You can’t name one scientist of any study, that has discovered or figured out something that has not followed the steps of first believing in that which could not be proved, having faith in that belief, and then progressing to understand it further until the point at which they discovered whatever it is they may have discovered.”
God is not real. Satan is not real. Demons are not real. Angels are not real. They are ideas, just as Santa Claus is an idea. They are fictional characters. Imagination is great but you have to know where reality begins and fantasy ends.”
____________________________________________________________________________________
See you can’t name one person who has not followed the course of logic I laid out. You instead run a tangent to distract from the main point of the discussion. Stay on topic please.
Report Post »RLTW
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:08amDOWNTHEWELL/STEELHEAD
Report Post »Your denial of faith and the foundation of Biblical teachings are without logic and reason; it falls into the category of denying the history of man. You look at it as myth and believe you can ignore it without consequence, you believe your intellect alone makes you the exception. Your arrogance leaves you uprooted, having no true link to the past, you’ve devised your place in the world and call it a newly discovered truth. This thing you call reason is nothing but a plaything to people like you, used to avoid your own root problem; Lack of a Soul.
rush_is_right
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:15am“God is not real. Satan is not real. Demons are not real. Angels are not real. They are ideas,”
how do you know this?
explain israel, which exists exactly as ezekiel foretold….
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:16am@downthewell
I posted prior to the one dealing with the courts but it didn’t show for some reason. I was stating that the word supersition hasmany definition, not one of which denies something happening or existing, only the way in which we percieve it. The logical mind welcomes and believes in superstition moreso than most so as to learn why things exist or happen. With understanding comes progression from calling it superstition to accepted knowledge. But the occurrence or existence of that which was dubbed superstitious has not changed, only our understanding of it. May I suggest getting away from common connotations associated with words and phrases and researching the etymology and definitions of them before using them? If you lose the tendancy to insult and aggravate others you might actually succeed in objective discourse.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:19amdownthewell, if we assume the first human female and male evolved simultaneously, not 200,000 years ago, but a very conservative 50,000 years ago and take into consideration that the human population doubles at least once every 150 years (also a conservative figure)… this would mean there should be at least
Report Post »10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people on the Earth today. That figure is billions of times larger than the total number of atoms in the Universe, not to mention the fact that the current world population is only about 7,000,000,000. Coincidently, if eight people repopulated the Earth after a worldwide flood approximately 5,000 years ago, there would be about 8,000,000,000 people on Earth. No, 8,000,000,000 does not equal 7,000,000,000, but 8,000,000,000 is a lot closer to 7,000,000,000 than 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is to 7,000,000,000.
ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:45amdownthewell raises a valid question about why God would have ignored the human race for 200,000 years and it can’t be answered by Christians who believe in Evolution. If you’re a Christian who believes God created the building blocks and then let everything evolve, you cannot defend the goodness of God, because a God worth worshipping would not have created a world of happenstance where slime eventually evolved into human beings who are riddled with disease and full of corruption. Such a god would not only be cruel, but there would be no reason for God to come to earth as Jesus to die for the sins of mankind, since he would be responsible for the sinful nature of humans. On the other hand, if the Bible is true and God did create a perfect world, which was spoiled by the rebellion of the first two humans about 6,000 years ago, then everything makes sense and the act of Jesus sacrificing his life on behalf of sinful human beings, who brought upon their own demise, is truly the act of an awesome, loving God.
Report Post »dmac225
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:56am@LTB… The problem with your “what Paul said” post is atheist do not worship pagan idols, unicorns or anything else. Mankind has always created “gods” to calm their fear of things they could not understand. From the Sumerians to the ancient Greeks and Romans to today’s Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc.
The problems with your “their would be a gazillion people on the planet” theory is the species **** sapiens has only been around for about 10,000 years. And if the world was repopulated by 8 people (all members of the same family, I believe that level of in-breeding would have rendered the species extinct or at least severely handicapped)) how do you explain the diversity of people walking the around. How can there be different races etc.?
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:09pmTimothy, you are full of baloney and it shows. Your word games and silly challenges lack merit of any kind and prove nothing. Atheism is not a religion and everyone knows it as well. That’s not even worthy of discussion and when people march that tired old argument out, it melts in the face of fact and logic. I have some great friends who happen to be believers and I figure why burst their bubble? It’s the same way I feel about my 5 year old grand son. Why tell him Santa is a big lie? Let them have their fun. As long as the theists keep their beliefs out of government, it really doesn’t matter to me. Church‘s should be taxed though and that is an issue we’re going to prevail on in time, but that’s another subject. So Timothy, save your silly protests for somebody else. You’ll never persuade me. I‘m a believer in reality and science and that’s it. You might want to ponder this question though:Why did your god ignore the human race for nearly 200,000 years and then finally choose to introduce himself to a small collection of bronze age ignorant people in the M.E. rather than to a more advanced culture, like the Chinese, who could have spread the word much more efficiently. Some god huh? Off you go now.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:19pmThe final act ——“nonbelieving is the same as witchcraft” ????????????? By your logic, not believing in leprechauns is the same as voodoo.
wow
Report Post »rpa1121
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:28pmWell then DownTheWell, if you believe Science is the answer, please answer my post above about how it all started. Thanks.
Report Post »THE-FINAL-ACT
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:37pm@ DOWNTHEWELL
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:42pmLTB, your assumptions are all erroneous, so your premise is faulty and therefore has no merit. Do some homework and you’ll see why. The human race almost became extinct at least once in history in any case.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:53pmLTB, people have been on the planet for longer than 6000 years. You are delusional to believe otherwise. LTB is a great example of the outright silliness of believing in fabricated falsehoods over the easily observable discoveries science has made and continues to make as technology advances. For crissakes, watch Nova on PBS for starters. How easy is that to do? Here’s a link for their series “The Fabric of the Cosmos” for starters http://video.pbs.org/program/nova/ It’s a helluva lot more worthwhile to watch than GBTV. hahaha…wow
Final Act, that nonsense you quoted is not true and you should not believe it. Think independently – you’ll benefit from it. Here’s some real wisdom for you to grapple with: http://video.pbs.org/program/nova/
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 12:56pmDmac225, downthewell asked a question about how we know our God is the true God and I gave him an answer. If he had asked me how I know there is a God, my answer would have been different. As far as **** sapiens only being around 10,000 years, I guess Darwinists keep moving up their estimates of when modern humans first arrived on the scene, because up until a few years ago, common wisdom in the Darwin crowd was that modern humans first appeared 2 million to 200,000 years ago. Not surprisingly, though, archaeology hasn’t borne that out and, as you said, instead has demonstrated that civilizations first appeared on Earth about 5,000 to 10,000 years ago. Where have I heard that before? Oh, I know, that’s what Creation scientists have been saying for years.
Continued…
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:01pmKinda funny to hear a believer talk about “logic.”
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:01pm…continued
How do I account for the diversity of races? There is only one race, but if you mean for the variation of characteristics among different tribes in the human race (e.g., Asians, Africans, Caucasians), then I would say those variations are due to natural selection and adaptation. Actually, I account for these variations the same way that Darwinists do. You’re right about in-breeding causing problems, but believing in Evolution makes the problem worse, it doesn’t solve the problem. Personally, I believe the further we go back in time, the more healthy people were, because their DNA was more pure and hadn’t had a chance to become corrupted through mutations. In other words, I believe mankind is devolving, not evolving. One huge problem Darwinists have is that mutations destroy, they don’t create. Regardless of whether you believe God created the first man and woman, perfect and pure, or that a man and a woman coincidently evolved at the same time, in-breeding would still have occurred.
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:04pm@downthewell You are still avoiding providing one example of anyone of who has not used that same system of logic and progression. And your argument of “all my friends said so” is NOT going to stand up in a court of law. While the US Supreme Court, and the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals are my backing. Kinda leaves you a little lacking…… As for your grandson, that simply show that with age you have not recieved wisdom (in other words, it dates you). It isn’t automatic afterall. My word games aren’t games. There’s reason (that funny thing you keep applying to but are denied on a regular basis) behind etymology and definition of words. Connotation on the other hand is the game, in particular the game of telephone. Would you mind please staying on topic? You are not a believer in anything. Science requires belief in that which is not proven and most the time not even seen to progress. You do nothing more than regurgitate what others have discovered. You lack reasonable thought. You can’t even show me one example……. I’m not trying to get you to believe anything, you have to do that yourself, and I’m not protesting, I am asking for n example. I too believe in Jefferson, however you have sadly sadly misinterpreted him in other posts. Not really surprising since you find word definition and etymology games. The wherewithall to research the times he lived in, the expressions used, and the definitions of words in their origin alone make the statement y
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:06pm@downthewell have misinterpreted him. Not to mention taking him out of context. Truly you are amusing in your fight to stay off the subject and actually provide an example.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:10pmdownthewell, just because you disagree with something doesn’t make that thing erroneous. You seem to know a lot. Since you have obviously been everywhere in the Universe and haven’t found God, why don’t you tell us what’s one mile beyond the edge of the Universe and since you’ve been around from the beginning of time and weren’t able to find God, why don’t you tell us what happened one second before the Big Bang and since you’ve died and gone to the other side without finding God, why don’t you tell us what it feels like to be dead for 100 years? The problem with people like you is that you fail to appreciate your own ignorance. BTW, the federal courts have indeed ruled that atheism is a religion (Kaufman v. McCaughtry). Atheism is the religion in which Self is worshipped as the supreme being.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:12pmModerationIsBest
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:01pm
Kinda funny to hear a believer talk about “logic.”
—–
You believe nothing exploded into everything after nobody did anything… and you have the gall to mock other people about their logic? Really?
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:35pm@moderationisbest I agree wholeheartedly with your screen name by the way. Moderation is best, and in all things.
Logic has it’s base in belief as it is an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. So while it is usually kept well apart from the other (never have figured out why) they more go hand in hand. If more people spent time relating how different ways they think are alike than fighting over how the other is wrong more would be accomplished.
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:38pm@downthewell
This is posted just in good fun with the discussion:
“LTB, your assumptions are all erroneous, so your premise is faulty and therefore has no merit. Do some homework and you’ll see why. The human race almost became extinct at least once in history in any case.”
It was called a flood…….we know that already……..LOLOLOL
Report Post »rpa1121
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:48pm@LTB. Looks like they just accept, by FAITH, that it all happened somehow, Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah:
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, “Have faith in God.”
Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he (Jesus) said unto him, “Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.”
Luke 7:50 And he (Jesus) said to the woman, “Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
Luke 8:25 And he (Jesus) said unto them, “Where is your faith?” And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
And the list goes on. It is not that Atheists don’t have faith, it is just what their FAITH is in. Science, Which really means Scientists. And that really means Man…
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:56pm@LTB
I can’t say with certainty what happened, and I am always open to new evidence.
Believers claim to KNOW what happened and will disregard any new evidence to their beliefs.
If you want to say there isn’t enough evidence to the big bang theory, that’s fine. That doesn’t however strengthen Christians/Muslims/Mormons/Jews claims.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 3:56pmModerationIsBest I don’t claim to KNOW what happened, I believe what I believe based on my personal experience, education and worldview, just like you believe what you believe based on your personal experience, education and worldview. As far as disregarding any new evidence that contradicts my belief, you don’t know me, so it’s really presumptuous of you to even make such a statement. You atheists are such know-it-alls and that’s a really annoying personality trait. Contrary to what you might think, being a know-it-all isn’t indicative of someone who’s brilliant, it’s indicative of someone who is very insecure. Personally, I appreciate my own ignorance and realize there are lots of things I can’t possibly understand as a mere human when it comes to the totality of existence. The fact that you discount the Bible as nonsense, however, without any serious study of it, says a lot more about ignoring evidence that contradicts one’s belief than anything I’ve said. Also, when you lump Christianity, Islam and Mormonism together, as if they have one unifying declaration about the origins of mankind, it reveals a lot about the uninformed nature of your opinions.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 4:54pm@LTB
Then you are different then the majority of believers I talk to on a daily basis. Most believers I talk to(as the majority of my friends are evangelical Christians) claim what they “know” is the truth and are not open the possibility of it being wrong.
Let’s both take a step towards the middle(as i have done before and will always do again). While I don’t think there is a God based on my reasons, I am open the possibility that there is a God. While I don’t think it is likely that there is a God, I am open to the possibility of being wrong.
Are you willing to admit that while you believe there is a God based on your reasons, you are open to the possibility that there is no God? While you think it is likely there is a God, you are open to the possibility of being wrong?
If you are not willing to take that step, you claim to know the truth and are not open to new evidence.
Also, how can you claim that I am a “know it all” when I openly admit “I don’t know what happened, but am open to new evidence.“ I must not be a very good ”know it all” then. Also, in the same way I made a false assumption about your inability to be open to new evidence,you made a false assumption that I have not studied your book.
Fact is, I was an evangelical Christian for about 5 or 6 years and it was only when I actually read the Bible with some logic, reasoning and common sense did I realize what was actually being said.
Report Post »A Conservatarian
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:25pmI’m seeing the word logic tossed around like a cheap whore in this thread. First, define what you’re discussing: God. It’s an accepted (non)fact God cannot be bounded by the mind of men. If that’s so, conceptual thought cannot bound God in the manner of any other thing in the universe. If this is the case, discussion of or about God is not possible as what is an assumed linguistic entity in a statement, is nothing of the sort; i.e. if you admit you don‘t know what you’re saying when you use the term God, the rest of the statements most make, start making even less (or perhaps a whole lot more) sense. Of all words in any language, none is like the word God as all others have definitions and concepts. When the stance is accepted that God has no concept or definition the only possible logical outcome is that no debate can ever be made for the existence or non-existence; belief or non-belief of that which cannot be defined or conceived. It’s ok, logic and rational thought still exist once you get out of the dichotomy theists and atheists are normally stuck with. Strangely, it’s much like the dichotomy democrats and republicans falsely believe they are stuck with.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:14pmModerationIsBest, Let me clarify something. When I said “I don’t claim to KNOW what happened,” I was speaking about the beginning of creation and wasn’t talking about whether there is a God. I do know there is a God and no I am not open to the possibility that there is not a God. You may as well try to tell me that my mother is make-believe as try to convince me that my relationship with God is imaginary, because I interact with both God and my mother regularly.
continued…
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:17pm…continued
You said you were a Christian. I’m sorry, but you were never a Christian. You may have thought you were a Christian and you may have been religious, but you never had a relationship with Jesus; otherwise, you too would know that God exists because of your personal experiences with him and once that happens you can never go back to not knowing he exists. If a stranger gave you 100 pieces of gold, which you quickly put in a safety deposit box, but people said you were crazy when you told them about the stranger, all you would have to do is remember that you have tangible evidence of the encounter to know you aren’t delusional. My answered prayers are those pieces of gold. Jesus is my best friend and is as real to me as anyone else in my life. When I talk to Jesus (i.e., pray), he listens. How do I know he listens? Because my prayers are answered on a regular basis. So, do you see why I would be skeptical about your claim that you used to be a Christian, since you can’t possibly go from having a friend who directs your life in miraculous ways to no longer believing that friend exists? You either believed in Jesus and started a relationship with him that was very real, or you never had a relationship in the first place.
You said you decided you were no longer a Christian after you started reading the Bible – what specifically did you read that caused you to think you were no longer a Christian?
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 4, 2011 at 1:27am@LTB
How can you then account for Peter’s rejection of Jesus three times?
You claim that if you’re a “true” follower of Jesus, you would never be able to then not be a follower of him.
Fact is, according to your Bible, Peter(who we all KNOW is a follower of Jesus according to your Bible) rejected him 3 times. They even asked him, “aren’t you a disciple of him?” and he said, “no.” Jesus forgave and moved on.
Once again, your claims defeated by your own book. I can’t wait till you find a way to justify this, or say “it didn’t count“ or ”well he never actually stopped following” or any of the other numerous things you will say to justify this.
There is direct evidence in your own book of an original disciple of Christ denying him, and Jesus forgiving him.
Based on that thinking, here are the two options according to your original claim that “A true Christian could then never turn away from Jesus”
Peter was never a true believer/follower of Jesus Christ(which you can‘t and won’t agree with)
Report Post »or
Your claim about “a true Christian would never then not be able to follow him” was another lie created by believers to try to control the masses.
ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 4, 2011 at 1:53am@LTB
I won’t even go into the aspect of you claiming the authority to determine what a “True Christian” is. It’d also be too easy to point out the whole “not judging” aspect of Christianity but I won’t go there.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 4, 2011 at 6:34pmModerationIsBest wrote: How can you then account for Peter’s rejection of Jesus three times?
—–
Peter denied knowing Jesus BEFORE the crucifixion. After the resurrection, Peter never denied knowing Jesus again. As a matter of fact, when Jesus appeared to Peter after the resurrection, Peter was ashamed of the incident (Jn 21:15-19) and was so certain that Jesus was the Christ that he died a martyr’s death of being crucified upside down. I’m not sure why you brought up Peter, but his shame over denying Christ and subsequent martyr’s death prove my point – once you know Jesus as your Savior, you don’t ever go back to not knowing him.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 4, 2011 at 6:35pmModerationIsBest wrote: You claim that if you’re a “true” follower of Jesus, you would never be able to then not be a follower of him.
—–
I claim that if you are a true believer in Jesus you would never be able to then not believe in him. Don’t change my words. There’s a HUGE difference between being a BELIEVER in Jesus and being a FOLLOWER of Jesus. Lots of people may claim to be followers of Jesus (i.e., try to be like him), but if Jesus does not know them (i.e., if they have not been saved through grace by faith – Eph 2:8), they will go to Hell (Mt 7:21-23). I try to follow Jesus, but I fail miserably and my stupid efforts to emulate God incarnate will have counted for nothing when it comes to me being allowed into Heaven. I will be allowed into Heaven for one reason only – I believe Jesus died for my sins and have confessed as much to God with my mouth (Ro 10:9).
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 4, 2011 at 6:37pm(continued)
Everything you’re saying proves that you were never a Christian, because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be a Christian. A Christian is not someone who tries to be like Jesus, a Christian is someone who understands that (s)he is a sinner in need of a Savior and has accepted the crucifixion of Jesus as payment for his/her sins. The Bible says, “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Ro 10:9). If you had ever turned to God and prayed to receive salvation through Christ, you would know God is real, because once you get saved God becomes a very real part of your life.
…..
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” (Mt 7:21-23).
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 4, 2011 at 6:37pm(continued)
You didn’t answer my question: What specifically did you read in the Bible that caused you to think you were no longer a Christian? I’d also like to ask you two more questions: What happened the day you got saved and what was the most exciting prayer that God answered after you got saved?
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 4, 2011 at 10:23pm@LTB
I don’t remember ever saying that a Christian “tries to be Jesus” so I don’t know where you got that from. Maybe I said that, but I don’t remember.
Again, you justified Peter’s denial of Jesus. So what if he later died a matryr’s death? Fact is, he denied him but still believed and followed him after his denial.
Why are you asking me about when I believed I was saved and what prayers have been answered?
If I once believed in Santa, received presents from who I thought was Santa and then later realized there was no Santa; going back and asking me what I felt when I believed in Santa, and what presents I received from Santa would be irrelevant. Fact is, Santa never existed and I never received presents from Santa.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 4, 2011 at 10:36pm@LTB
The contradiction in man and woman to leave their homes, come together as one and multiply and fill the earth.
Then later being told it is better for man to not marry, because it would take focus away from God. That man would have to make sure his wife and kids were cared for, which takes focus off of God.
That snakes could talk.
That Moses was spoken through a burning bush.
That your God said, “thou shalt not kill” then sends Jesus who is murdered for “our sins.”
Those are just to name a few. Though I could name countless conversations with Christians that I have where they make no logical sense. I‘m sure you’ll contest that they aren’t “true Christians” in which you would be wrong since one is a Pastor of an Evangelical church
For instance
Them, “We are all deserving of hell, but it is through our belief in Jesus’s death and resurrection we are saved.”
Me, “What about all of the aborted children, or children who die before understanding?”
Them, “Well, our God is just, so of course they’re in Heaven.”
Me,”Judging by how small Christian numbers are(1 billion Muslims, etc), there will be more people in Hell then Heaven. Why would a merciful God create people to send them to hell?”
Report Post »Pastor, “Well i believe there will be an awakening and a lot of people will come to Jesus.”
Me, “I don’t remember any awakening mentioned in the Bible”
Pastor, “well it said there would be more descendents of Abraham then the number of sta
ltb
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:00amWhy are you asking me about when I believed I was saved and what prayers have been answered?
—–
The reason I am asking those questions is because I knew you couldn’t answer them. And the reason I knew you couldn’t answer them is because I knew you were never a Christian.
I’m not saying this to call you a liar, or to be judgmental, it’s just that whenever someone says “I used to be a Christian,” a true Christian immediately knows that person never was a Christian. The reason for this is because a true Christian knows that being a Christian is completely dependent on what Jesus did and nothing else. That being the case, you can’t undo what Christ did, which is the only way you could no longer be a Christian. In other words, the only way there could be no Christians on earth would be if Jesus had never been crucified.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:02am(continued)
Using my previous analogy (i.e., about the gold pieces), for someone to say he is no longer a Christian would be like the gift recipient saying “I never received any gold.” Either that person has 100 pieces of gold in a safety deposit box, or he never received the 100 pieces of gold in the first place. If he did receive the gold, it doesn’t matter what he says later, the fact of the matter is there are 100 pieces of gold in his safety deposit box that were given to him by a stranger.
Being a Christian means you accept the gift of salvation through Christ from God. How do you receive that gift? You simply tell God that you receive his gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and mean it in your heart, then thank him and ask him to come into your life.
Forget your reservations about the Bible and the passages you think are absurd, or contradictory, for a minute and answer three questions: 1) Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God?; 2) Do you believe Jesus was crucified for all of your sins (i.e., past, present and future sins)? 3) If you could have a very real relationship with God, would you want to? Goodnight and hope to hear back from you tomorrow.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:43amYou completely ignored my explanation. If I believed in Santa and got gifts from Santa, then found out Santa is not real, it doesn’t matter why I believed or what I got because fact is, Santa isn’t real. When talking about gifts from my past, I don’t say “Santa got me ”
Your “example” of gold in a safe is illogical because Gold is something that is tangible and can be seen and touched. God is not tangible and can’t be seen, which is why it’s called “faith.” Then again, I know many religious believers who say their faith is “Fact” which is just silly. You can claim that you see God and touch God in your daily life(ie, you see his work through your life, you felt touched by God, etc), but you are not seeing or touching something that is tangible, where Gold is tangible that is seen and touched by everyone.
Don’t believe Jesus is Son of God. Don’t believe in Sin, so don’t see how he could be sacrificed for it. Since I answered no to questions 1 and 2, the only logical answer to question number 3 is no. I can‘t have a relationship with something that doesn’t exist.
Let’s get over this “Son of God” stuff, honestly. You can lie all you want, but you don’t believe in the same God as the Jews. You just claim you do, which is why you say Jesus is God, so you can bypass that pesky first commandment. The same when Christians say Mormons are wrong when they call themselves “Christians.” Christianity/Islam/Mormons hijacked J
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:51amAs I’m sure Judaism hijacked a similar religion before theirs, and so on and so forth.
Have a good night.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 10:23amModerationIsBest
Your “example” of gold in a safe is illogical because Gold is something that is tangible…
Don’t believe Jesus is Son of God. Don’t believe in Sin, so don’t see how he could be sacrificed for it.
—–
I have been trying to tell you that my relationship with God is tangible. The presumptuousness and arrogant ignorance of atheists never ceases to amaze me. Not only will you argue that there is no God, when you couldn’t possibly know that without being omniscient and omnipresent, but you discount other people’s relationship with God, as if you have firsthand knowledge of their experiences. Real quick, tell me what color of shirt I’m wearing right now and what I had for breakfast. That shouldn’t be difficult for someone like you, who evidently knows everything.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 10:25am(continued)
Anyway, we’re wasting each other’s time. My “job” as a Christian is not to make you believe, my “job” is to tell you the gospel, which is that God came to earth as Jesus to die for the sins of mankind and to save those from Hell who would receive his sacrifice on their behalf. What you do with that truth is up to you.
Unfortunately, we live in a world where Satan has convinced people that there is no sin, but if you were honest with yourself, you would know that telling lies (even small white lies), or stealing (even taking a pen from work), or hating (same as murder to God) is sin. I know, I know, you don’t believe in Satan.
At any rate, all humans are sinful, because we are not perfect and that’s what sin is (i.e., missing the mark of perfection). Ironically, the reason America is so messed up right now is because there is so much sin, but people like you are so blind to the truth that you can’t even see the consequences of your lust for sin.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 10:26am(continued)
You obviously have thought this through and are comfortable with your decision. That being the case, there’s nothing I can say to change your mind and, honestly, I don’t feel like having the same debate I’ve had ad nauseam with other atheists who are more interested in arguing than finding the truth. You have a good life and I’m going to repeat myself one more time before leaving you, so read this carefully: ONCE YOU BECOME A CHRISTIAN YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD IS VERY TANGIBLE.
…..
“If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.” (Mt 10:14-15)
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:48pm@LTB
Your faith can’t be tangible, then it’s no longer faith. It doesn’t matter what you CLAIM. If you want to say your “faith” is “factual” then feel free, but then its no longer faith. You don’t need faith when you have evidence.
People have been claiming the same things you have claimed about your God, about their God, for many many many many many many many many many years. Yet somehow you are different and KNOW yours is the correct one. How egotistical of you.
You beat me to it. I am done with this conversation as well. I was polite and let you steer this conversation along for the past 4 days and you drove it right into a place where we argued about nothing tangible, or real for a week straight.
You gave no evidence to what you said except Bible quotes(original) and how people “feel” when we know humans are susceptible to delusion, and are capable of lying to themselves(without their awareness).
You compare real things(Gold), to unreal things(A relationship with Jesus), and claim that a relationship with Jesus is real and tangible and claim to know what a “true” Christian is. If I believe my friendship with an imaginary friend is real. If I play games with him, talk to him, imagine he talks back to me and gives me things. Does that make it real? No
Your belief is wrapped up in so much evidence, that there are numerous denominations of your own faith that believe differently.
Anyways, have a good day and a good life.
Report Post »ltb
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 3:15pmModerationisbest wrote: “Your faith can’t be tangible, then it’s no longer faith. It doesn’t matter what you CLAIM. If you want to say your “faith” is “factual” then feel free, but then its no longer faith. You don’t need faith when you have evidence.”
—–
I know I shouldn’t have checked back, but I couldn’t resist. Anyway, here goes nothing. Jesus said that if we have faith as small as a mustard seed we can move mountains (Mt 17:20), so the result of faith is very tangible because we can see God answering our prayers. If a woman is given 6 weeks to live due to terminal cancer, but her husband prays for God to heal her, when she gets healed that is VERY TANGIBLE. If a pastor feels called to buy a piece of land on which to build a church, but he needs $33,164.39 to buy that land, when he receives an unsolicited check for $33,164.39 from a complete stranger that is VERY TANGIBLE. If a man in the most isolated regions of Tibet doesn’t believe in God, but his Christian son prays for God to send a missionary to their hut in the middle of nowhere, when a missionary arrives the next day that is VERY TANGIBLE. Every single one of these examples I just provided is based on actual events and you would have to be a complete idiot to not see that such prayers were answered supernaturally.
…..
“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1)
Report Post »BigRik
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:51amAtheist have no problem coming on sites like this or doing interviews on a regular basis expressing their contempt and disdain for people of faith, their beliefs and traditions while also questioning their intelligence and fitness to be part of rational society. Why would anyone be shocked to find that people of faith don’t trust them?
Report Post »twinner42
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:50amWhile I don’t believe we are “blessed” or “sacred” as Christians would say, I do believe we got lucky with sentience and that still makes us special. We still deserve liberty and everything else promised in the Constitution. We don’t have these inalienable rights because of our creator, but because we declare it as rational sentient beings, which makes it much more powerful in my opinion. People can be good and have a good moral foundation without having to use religion as a crutch. Stand up on your own and declare your own divinity through existence!
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:02amHey – great post! You nailed it. You sound very Jeffersonian.
Report Post »the wireworker
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:14amand we see where the DIVINITY OF MAN has taken us, it leads to ruin!
Report Post »RestoreFederalism
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:24pmTwinner, get over yourself.
Downthewell, read a history book.
Report Post »Johnny916
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:50amI’m a Jewish born-atheist. I am proud of my Jewish background, but religion in my view is rubbish. No, religion or faith (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Deism, Hinduism, etc) are in my book true. I’m happy being my own individual person.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:44amDeists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.
These beliefs were forcefully articulated by Thomas Paine in Age of Reason, a book that so outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation that had once revered him as “the father of the American Revolution.” To this day, many mistakenly consider him an atheist, even though he was an out spoken defender of the Deistic view of God. Other important founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.
Report Post »Perkins
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:43amDeism is the belief the existence of God can be rationally realized from the surrounding world, and that God does not, therefore, abridge the natural laws hence necessitating the non-existence of miracles. So why would a deist pray? God is not going to get involve, therefore there is no point in praying.
“In the beginning of the Contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection.- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor.”
–Benjamin Franklin
Yeah… sounds like a Deist to me.
Some of the founders were Deist, but not all of them (hence Jefferson disagreeing with Adams). Interesting how you conveniently skip the non-deists eh. Sometimes people say more by what they don’t say than by what they do say.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:46amuh washington attended an episcopal church…and said this…
THANKSGIVING DAY 1789
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA – A PROCLAMATION
Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor – and Whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me “to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.”
I mean really a deist?? thats just a progressive fairy tale
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:48amPerkins, nobody is perfect not even Ben Franklin. So he slipped up and talked about praying. He was still a Deist.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:08am“Perkins, nobody is perfect not even Ben Franklin. So he slipped up and talked about praying. He was still a Deist.”
another person who never lets facts get in the way of their ideology…let me guess you must be a democrat! lol
Report Post »objectivetruth
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:34amKnowing how prejudice some polls are.I wonder if they polled true athiests.Many people with a moral background don’t attend church any more.Some out there will lump them in with athiests agnostics or well just about anything not religious.These people have faith in a higher power[god]they simply don’t have much faith and trust in churches any more.
Report Post »Lloyd Drako
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:32amWhat’s not to trust about Mormons? I find their third-from-the-bottom standing surprising.
Report Post »Locked
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:40amMany of their beliefs are contrary to mainstream Christianity; that, combined with secretive services, in-your-face prosthelytizing, a relatively recent beginning, and a history of racism and polygamy. I‘ve never met a Mormon who wasn’t a pleasant person, nor would it affect my vote, but I can imagine it would bother a lot of Christians.
I’m personally surprised that “Muslim” wasn’t on that scale; I’d be interested to see where they would fall.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:13amI think they were afraid to add muslims to the survey…
Report Post »Winedude
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:22amI know I’ve written something similar to this and posted on here before but here it is again: There are numerous bad things that happen to us in life. If “God” can prevent these things from happening but chooses not to, the (s)he can’t be “all-good”. If “God” cannot prevent these bad thing from happening, then (s)he isn’t “all-powerful”. I know that I cannot prove that “God” doesn’t exist. I want a true believer to prove to me that he DOES exist, which I know won’t happen either.
Report Post »By the way, I was brought up in a religious family. As I’ve seen over time what awful things have happened and are still happening in this world, I’ve become less and less religious. There may be a higher being but I don’t need to hang out with other “believers” to feel better about myself.
Trance
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:59amHere’s the quote you are looking for:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]
Report Post »the wireworker
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:53am@ winedude
because sin has always been paid for by the shedding of blood, whether it be mans inhumanity towards man or what Jesus Christ did on the cross for the redemption of that inhumanity. your freewill….your choice….choose wisely
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:06pm@wine
Don’t listen to the hypocrisy of it. How ironic that their God that gave us the commandment “Thou shalt not commit murder.“ then sends someone who HAS to be murdered for ”us.” Not only that, but Christians cheer and honor is death. They WANT him to die, they NEED him to die. If given the option of going back in time to save Jesus, they would choose NOT to. I don’t see how that could be defined as moral.
Report Post »the wireworker
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 3:51pm@ moderationisbest
no-one murdered Jesus, He GAVE up his life, and btw he was resurrected and is still ALIVE, that is our HOPE! It’s the most beautiful story of history if you have an open heart.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 3:58pm@THE WIREWORKER
If you don’t think Jesus was murdered then you need to re-read your book.
If Jesus’s death was purely about just dying for our sins, why couldn’t he have died in his sleep? Or of old age?
Fact is, according to your book he was tortured and crucified by the hands of others. That is murder. Whether he “chose” to be murdered is irrelevant, fact is that he was murdered and believers HAVE to believe that it was necessary, and that he NEEDED to die. That if given the option to go back and keep Jesus from getting murdered, they would choose NOT to. That is not moral thinking.
Report Post »the wireworker
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 6:39pm@ moderationisbest
not only do i read the Bible but i also study it, some parts are pretty self explanatory, some need more study to put it into proper context and some of it i still don’t understand but i do know this,
all of the scripture points to Christ on the cross.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 NO MAN TAKETH IT FROM ME, BUT I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I HAVE THE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, and I HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Report Post »(John 10:11, 17-18)
ModerationIsBest
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 6:42pm@THE WIREWORKER
You completely missed my point.
My point was not that he didn’t die on the cross, but the fact that he was MURDERED. Whether he chose to be murdered or not is irrelevant, fact is he was murdered(that’s your claim that I was disputing).
And the fact is that Christians rejoice in this murder, they need him to die. They would choose to NOT go back and stop him from being murdered.
Also, I love how in almost every other aspect of life, it’s an insult to be called a sheep, yet when it comes to Christianity, it is a virtue.
Report Post »RestoreFederalism
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:58pmWinedude, the fact that there is more matter in the universe than antimatter proves that God exist because scientificly speaking, there is no way that there can be more matter than antimatter.
Report Post »the wireworker
Posted on December 3, 2011 at 2:41pm@ winedude
i didn’t miss your point, it is that you are wrong. we don’t celebrate the death of Jesus, OUR HOPE IS IN HIS RESURRECTION. i’ll put it simple for you HE IS ALIVE, NOT DEAD. It is because of the sins of this world that He came to JUSTIFY us to HIM.
if you look at history you will see that sin is always paid for in blood, whether it is mans inhumanity to man or whether it is the redemptive work of Christ on the Cross, he came to pay the price for SIN.
You want a perfect world where man loves his neighbor in perfect agape love, so do I, but I know that can only be achieved through CHRIST and HIM ALONE. It’s His promise to us, He is the only one who is so bold as to promise us that. It will happen when all things are made new. there will be no more tears and no more sin for those who choose life.
if you look at history you will see that sin is always paid for in blood, whether it is man shedding the blood of another or whether it is the redemptive work of Christ on the Cross.
I don’t need you to believe that, I want you to but I know that it is your freewill, it is your choice
Report Post »indy1
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:22amWhy would any Christian trust Bill Maher? He’d throw us into a death camp if he had the chance.
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:33amI have to agree with you there.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:09amThat’s a lie. How dare you say ugly nonsense like that? Your statement is typical extreme rhetoric and unsurprising. Bill Maher has never hurt anyone. Glenn Beck on the other hand, was a malicious A-h0le for most of his adult life and has intentionally tried to hurt a number of people and that’s on the record. he still needs to apologize to the woman he savaged last summer too.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55751455@N02/5987685144/in/photostream/
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:51amlol, I bet downthewell is encinom giving yet another new identity a spin…
Report Post »professional.lewis
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:20amI’m an agnostic, and I have Christian friends who have decided to treat me differently since I told them that. I got to a Christian University, because my dad is a professor here, and I’ve been raised in the Church my entire life. I’m not a Christian because of purely personal reasons. What I don’t understand, is why Christians don’t treat people who are not of the faith how it says in 1 Corinthians 5:12 “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?” (NIV) I love people and have always been striving to be a good guy and do good things for people, not because I fear Hell or want to serve someone or something that I don’t believe we can know for certain even exists, but out of wanting to serve, no matter what, my fellow man. Keep in mind that just because someone isn’t a Christian, it doesn‘t mean that they’re a bad human being.
Report Post »AxelPhantom
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:12amPlease don’t lump all Christans together! I treat the people in my life as they have earned the right to be treated, not based on their religious beliefs. Are you are a good person, do you conduct yourself with honor and integrity? Then it does not matter to me what religion you are, or no religion at all.
Did anyone see “The Stand”? The part where they are sitting around the picknic table and Nick says he doesn’t believe in God and the old lady laughs and says “that don’t matter none Nick, He believes in you!”
It is not my place to weigh the soul of others as worthy or unworthy of His grace, I am not qualified. The judgement of the soul is for Him to determine.
Report Post »HorseCrazy
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:40amI am sorry that people are treating you that way. Unfortunately lots of people do that in every group if someone doesn’t fit their ideals. I would agree that it does nothing to promote Christianity what so ever.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:19amSpreadcom, no one ever heard “GOD” speak. No sane person that is. Religion and “GOD” are creations of the imagination of men. The proof is evident. Just look at the way women are regarded as second class citizens in the Bible and even worse in the Koran. A divine entity would have never dictated that half of its lovingly and specially created beings would be not quite as important and as worthy as the other half. No. A divine creator would have corrected man‘s perspective on that one and that’s glaringly obvious.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:51amIf you were a rapist, I might believe you.
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:13am@downthewell
In addressing the following:
“Spreadcom, no one ever heard “GOD” speak. No sane person that is. Religion and “GOD” are creations of the imagination of men. The proof is evident. Just look at the way women are regarded as second class citizens in the Bible and even worse in the Koran. A divine entity would have never dictated that half of its lovingly and specially created beings would be not quite as important and as worthy as the other half. No. A divine creator would have corrected man‘s perspective on that one and that’s glaringly obvious.”
____________________________________________________________________________________
Your logic is flawed. By your statements you would have people believe that either you are a divine being yourself and are therefore qualified to determine what the actions of a divine being would or would not be, or you have not researched that which you are stating here. You need to read the scriptures with a more open and objective mind if you are going to understand how they apply (i.e. women were not treated as second class citizens). You would also do well to read more history in context (get away from the history channel, those are only half truths) to gain an appreciation of a time you are obviously unfamiliar with in the extreme. Doing both would further your goals in debate or comment.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:13amOK Gonzo, then just pretend I’m Bill Clinton I guess. That should work for you. Off you go.
Report Post »stockpicker
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:17amYou don‘t even understand what you’re talking about. Sad.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:24amTimothy R, those ancient writings were written by ignorant superstitious men and not by any divine being. Women were regarded as second class citizens by the men who authored that book and that is a fact (Eve for starters.) I suggest you are the one who needs to have a more open mind. I agree with Thomas Jefferson. It’s superstitious nonsense.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:26amIn February 1800, after Washington’s death, Thomas Jefferson wrote this statement in his personal journal
“Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice….
I know that Gouverneur Morris [principal drafter of the constitution], who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed him self to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did” (quoted in Remsberg, p. 123 from Jefferson’s Works, Vol. 4, p. 572, emphasis added).”
The “Asa” Green referred to by Jefferson was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was chaplain to congress during Washington’s administration. If so, he was certainly in a position to know the information that “Asa” Green had passed along to Jefferson. Reverend Ashbel Green became the president of Princeton College after serving eight years as the congressional chaplain.
Report Post »trolltrainer
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:56amlol, I was wrong above. Downthewell is beckisnuts…Of course beckisnuts and encinom still might be the same person also…Man, I am getting a headache.
Off you go beckisnuts…
Report Post »Timothy_Reid
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:22pm@downthewell Here we go again (and in the same article comments no less)……
“those ancient writings were written by ignorant superstitious men and not by any divine being. Women were regarded as second class citizens by the men who authored that book and that is a fact (Eve for starters.) I suggest you are the one who needs to have a more open mind. I agree with Thomas Jefferson. It’s superstitious nonsense.”
____________________________________________________________________________________
Define both Ignorant and superstition please. Prove there is no Divine being. And if exactly how was Eve second class? Please do share. Oh and stop misusing Jefferson. He believed without question the existence of a supreme being and was constantly in search of more truth. He did however not hold to any particular sect (as I’m sure you well know). Asking questions of your belief, be it in a supreme being or of your athiest religion, is an important aspect in growing faith. He was exemplary in this.
Report Post »NICHOLAS.STL
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:36pm@gonzo
You crack me up dude!
Report Post »W@nd@
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:19amwow next you think it will be a hate crime!
i think the reverse is true…
it is the athiest that is the one who discriminates
not the other way around!
as a Christian i have made a choice in whom i believe in
Report Post »in whom i trust
as an athiest i am sure does the same…
Life is a series of choices
we all make a decision
to abdicate deciding is by default deciding..
I am not to judge them…
i am not responsible for their decision they are
It does not even enter my mind to condemn them
for they are condemned already according to the Word of God
but it is God who deals with that later not me at anytime!
I do not have to trust them I trust God! and
as a Christian i would just as likely hire an athiest as a believer because
i would judge them by their qualifications for the job…
Would they be a good fit?
only time would tell but having a christian based company
would the athiest feel comfortable there…in general
that is the 64$ question…
So the study to me is totally bogus you are trying to compare apples and oranges!
By what standard does an athiest guage themselves?
advent2
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:05am@W@ND@ Sola scriptura Brother!
Report Post »Locked
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:18am“…were asked to say whether it was more likely the man was either a Christian, Muslim, rapist or an atheist.”
One of these things is not like the others…
Report Post »smithclar3nc3
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:16amWhy would people behave better because they believe in God. If they truely believed in God they would know that God knows what darkness lies in the hearts of man. So if they are acting differently as a deception to what they truely want God’s knows.
Report Post »I personally think Atheist believe that people fear God and do things out of that fear. Nothing could be further from the truth Christian do things because they want to not out of fear. To Be Christian is to love God not out of fear but out of thanks for all he’s given. Atheist seem to look at Christanity as some type of abusive relationship “do what God wants or else you get smacked around”
Christians do what’s in their heart just like all other people. Because Atheist are blinded by thier lack of faith either ingrained from birth,brought on by events,or to be accepted by other atheist they can’t see the beauty of Christ and his message. He77 even an agnostic can appreciate Christ teachings while in confusion of who he was. Atheist refuse to hear the message becasue they do believe. To refuse to hear a message of forgiveness,love,nad strength out of hatred is as sad as anything you’ll ever know.
downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:30amWow. lolol. Are you ever confused and misguided. Wrong too. You completely misunderstand what a rational thinker believes. It’s amazing and worthy of study but sad too. You are so brainwashed you’ve lost the ability to think independently.
Smithclar, you cannot speak for atheists if you are not one. That’s why your statements are all false. People can be decent, loving, moral and happy without believing in unprovable superstitious ideas.
Now, who will be the first to make the snarky “I’ll pray for you” cliche?
Report Post »sawbuck
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:57am@downthewell
Report Post »Don’t cast your pearls before the swine.!
Is more my line of thinking.
smithclar3nc3
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:03amI’ve known more than a few atheist and satanist in my life journey. I speak from experience without a doubt one thing is always the same atheist believe that Christain act out of fear. And being a Christain I can say without a doubt I do what I do because I think it’s right. I can also say that atheist are far from free thinkers their as closed minded to God’s exsistence as I am to his non-exsistence. These same Atheist swallow the big bang theory like i DO THE BIBLE. It’s the source they take issue with reguarding faith. If science theorized the Earth was an experiment by a hyper-intelligent being from another planet some atheist would buy that as well.
Report Post »And I never said all atheist are bad not once, fact is people can be good reguardless of belief. However If part of that belief is the destroy Christanity that evil far outweighs any good. You want be atheist be atheist I could give a crap. We all walk our own paths however don’t use you belief of non-believe as reason to destroy the foundation this country was build on….FREEDOM OF RELIGION NOT FROM RELIGION.
have a Merry Christmas
silentme63
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:11amGod Oh God,, I never believed and hated my brother whom would talk about Jesus at every turn… Then I started a bible study free program, and asked the Lord if he is real help me change my heart mind and soul… Now I understand the bible fully, and appreciate his Love, righteousness, and even his judgement for we can’t question him.. But hey many Atheist have died only to come back to tell the story of reality… A real God, spiritual realm lives… if their is nothing why would this happen?
Report Post »EqualJustice
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:11amOne reason is that many of them have NEVER developed a “conscience.” They have no qualms about ATTACKING any religion on SO many levels. I question how they develop good moral character and learn right from wrong without any foundation upon which to build. You “MINORITIES” are ALWAYS pushing some kind of AGENDA and LEGISLATION OR LAWSUIT at the rest of us! I don’t TRUST anyone with a “HATE” agenda…and some of the things I read and see from ATHEISTS are extremely HATEFUL! TRUST IS EARNED.
Report Post »Trance
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 11:46amI’ve seen many Christians who have never developed a “conscience”. I’ve seen Christians (many on this site) attack people’s religious believes (including Muslim and Atheist). As an Atheist, I go to church more than most Christians. I give money to the church, I support the church because I see the church as a force for good. My only religious agenda is that the the US government does not create a state religion by promoting Christianity (or any other religion). As a side note, why would anybody want the government to teach people about religion anyways… the government is more likely to ruin religion than help it anyways. Our society has developed a good moral foundation based mostly on Christian values, but most of our national values are clearly right, and can be embraced by people of any religion. In fact, religious values also deny some human liberties (like gay marriage). In fact, there are plenty of religious people that are HATEFUL and have a HATE agenda (including Christians). In fact, the bible’s acceptance of slavery was often used as an excuse for the US to keep that disgusting institution. Even a cursory reading of history will reveal 15 centuries of abject evil committed by the church. The church created a system to hide and continue child molestation. The church has killed so many people, and done so many evil things in the name of God. Yet, I don’t judge religious people based on what most of us recognize as evil. I judge people as individ
Report Post »EqualJustice
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 1:53pmWAY TO TWIST what I said…and yet SOMEHOW support it at the same time? You said…”Our society has developed a good moral foundation based mostly on Christian values, but most of our national values are clearly right, and can be embraced by people of any religion.” So I assume you are NOT one of the HATEFUL Atheists who constantly ATTACK and make try to HUMILIATE others and their Religion If it doesn’t FIT with your SOCIAL agenda? Government isn’t TEACHING religion, it’s SUPPORTING our RIGHT to it, as it SHOULD! How do you go to CHURCH if you are an ATHEIST? That’s LACK of religion and God.
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:10amThe poll could reasonably see as proof that believers in the supernatural lack good judgement.
Report Post »Steelhead
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:49amthat’s funny
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:56amThen you’ll love this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55751455@N02/5987685144/in/photostream/
Report Post »NCTRUTH
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:09am1… God in the bible tells believers to go into business wih non-believers. And yes if your moral framework is nothing but what you feel at the moment how can you trust them.
Report Post »Trance
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:08amA person’s moral framework is what they feel at the moment, then they should not be trusted. No matter their religious belief. If you mean to say that the bible (or other religious book) is the only moral framework, then you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Report Post »spreadcommonsensenot pc
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:07amGod calls “atheists” fools……………..you dont like it? take it up with HIM,
Report Post »gunsofthepatRIots
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:11amPretty sure if he did exist god would not be calling me a fool rather using the brain he gave me to question and rationalize not believe corrupt humans trying to get money.
And now an actual person (me) is calling you a fool
Report Post »professional.lewis
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:30amI still don‘t understand why the verse in 1 Corinthians hasn’t been addressed, that is, to concentrate on those inside of the Church, rather than judge those outside (5:12, as I also explain in my comment above). Look in your own ranks and you’ll find people more repulsive to you, those who claim to be in the faith, yet act as if nothing but the title of Christian is important. Some atheists are better caregivers than Christians. I believe that the all important “cleaning from the inside out” aspect of Christianity is oft forgotten, for example, getting the plank out of your own eye before attempting to remove the twig from your brothers eye.
Report Post »chicago76
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:33amMaybe it is the fact that communism and marxism are atheist world views.
Report Post »professional.lewis
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:40amMost of the Framers weren’t Christian, though Deists, shared the same spiritual standpoint as many people who would be called atheists or agnostics now. Does religion somehow constitute political competency?
Report Post »downthewell
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 9:48amThere’s no such thing as god. You’ve been lied to like all the other people who believe in this superstitious hogwash.
Report Post »rush_is_right
Posted on December 2, 2011 at 10:47am“There’s no such thing as god.”
really, because you say so?
post your proof.
Report Post »