Supreme Court Refuses to Hear Case Over NYC Ban on Using School Space for Church
- Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:47pm by
Billy Hallowell
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Public schools are often used for non-educational purposes during after-school and weekend hours. Among the groups that often seek to rent these buildings out are churches. If and when a house of worship doesn’t have a physical location, these taxpayer-supported buildings serve as a viable substitute.
However, in New York City, public schools will no longer host after-hours religious worship services, as the Supreme Court has rejected an evangelical church’s plea for the High Court to overturn a contentious government ban. This inaction on behalf of the nation’s top justices ended a legal battle that began back in 1994.
The Supreme Court on Monday declined to hear the case and left in place a federal appeals court ruling that upheld the city’s policy. In a game of judicial volleyball, a federal appeals court upheld the policy in June, reversing the previous stance of a district judge.
The Bronx Household of Faith is an evangelical Christian church that has held Sunday services at P.S. 15 in the Bronx since 2002. The church services have been allowed to continue pending the outcome of the school’s lawsuit against the city. Now the church, which only has 48 official members, will need to find a new home.
In this Dec. 1, 2011 photo, Bronx Household of Faith co-pastor Robert Hall poses for a portrait in front of P.S. 15 in the Bronx borough of New York. (AP Photo/Mary Altaffer)
Church officials and members say the city allows many groups to use school buildings after hours. But the city says that it risks blurring church-state separation if it allows worship services in public schools. Boston.com has more about the church’s involvement in the lawsuit, which was championed by the conservative group Alliance Defense Fund:
Robert Hall, co-pastor of the evangelical Bronx Household of Faith, said last week that his little group never expected to get involved in a big-time court case that has now lasted 17 years.
“I can assure you this wasn’t strategic planning on our part,’’ the 68-year-old Minnesota native said. “Basically we just outgrew the place we were meeting,’’ a Christian halfway house for men.
Considering the implications of imposing such a law, one wonders how churches without the funds to build, rent or purchase space in NYC will survive without the much-needed public-school space.
According to the city government, roughly five dozen congregations used public schools for their religious services in 2009.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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Comments (58)
capitalismrocks
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 3:01pmThis is where Community Civics groups need to come in and step up, through private funding and donations they can put an end to this crap. Where I live our local Community Civic center only takes private donations and they hold our Christmas Parade and Bazaar and such and the city and state can’t do squat about it because its all PRIVATELY funded…
What this group should do is consider contacting and partnering with the local Knights of Columbus in the Bronx, they have halls EVERYWHERE in nearly every town and county, contact them about using their hall and seeing about getting private donations to help fund its use to pay for electric and such just to cover costs…. fight back and win !!!
Report Post »RunFree
Posted on December 15, 2011 at 6:27amSeparation of church and state…I live in one of the poorest areas of LA and there are about 6 store-front churches within walking distance of my house. None of them use public buildings for places of worship. I have no problem with people exercising their right to practice their religion, but not on my tax dime. I grew up in an Orthodox Catholic home. Our church had a reception hall, and even a school which eventually became a daycare. Why can’t local churches work together and rent out spaces within their churches for other smaller churches to congregate? Conservatives always say that we shouldn’t rely so much on the government–so why don’t people start using private venues for religious services? Or, with all the foreclosures, why don’t these small groups ban together and buy a reasonable property and split the mortgage? These are all reasonable suggestions. Just as I wouldn‘t want to infringe on someone’s right to worship whatever god they choose, please respect that all of us do not want to financially support your religious ceremonies and rituals. I am sure there are many religious organizations that can help people find places to worship without infringing on the civil liberties of others who choose not to participate.
Report Post »bcp100
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:56pmThe Census Bureau uses church facilities across the country to train its enumerators. I know this first hand having worked the 2010 census. The use of church properties is so extensive that thee Census Bureau could not function without them.
Report Post »NCalFlyfisherman
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:46pmTell them your religion is Islam. See if they allow you to use the facility. If they do, then sue the school district for discrimination. It can not go both ways.
Report Post »JRook
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:59pmDon’t agree with the policy, but the board should be allowed to decide who can and cannot use the facilities. The lawsuit is an ADF lawsuit and thus was had little to do with the hardship of the particular congregation.
Report Post »Nickachick
Posted on December 7, 2011 at 9:25amMy church is getting booted out of Jackie Onassis High next week as a result of his decision. To respond to the poster below, no one forced the school to rent to us, and we defer to the school’s maintenance schedule. These kiinds of services have taken place for years in NYC without problems or incident, so the only reason I can imagine for this action is a growing cancer of intolerance for Christians and Jews in NYC. I loved New York, but not so much any more. Although many wonderful and kind people live here, this court decision to hurt local churches, along with a recent uptick in local angst, provide additional evidence that it’s a good time to leave New York.
Report Post »GrumpyCat
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:25pmWhen I was in elementary school (public) my school rented space FROM THE CHURCH across the street for additional classrooms after filling available space with mobile trailers. The church classrooms were much nicer than the trailers.
Seems quite reasonable to me to rent empty/unused school space at profitable rates to any takers, so long as the space is available to all takers without discrimination.
Report Post »Ookspay
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 5:59pmYou have a lot of nerve bringing logic to any discussion regarding government and religion.
Report Post »ChicagoRob
Posted on December 6, 2011 at 6:16amYour logic is faulty. A church choosing to rent space out for public purposes is not the same as a public school being forced to do so, as the case attempted to do.
Beyond that, it’s not a profitable venture for a school to rent out space. There are a million and two liability issues associated with it that make it so. Plus the fact that a great deal of maintenance is done after hours.
In the end, the Court made a determination based on what it could do within the bounds of the law. It decided that the Court of Appeals’ ruling was proper within the context of the law in question.
That church will, undoubtedly, be fine. They’ll find another place to assemble as a congregation.
Report Post »COFemale
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:22pmSo let me get this straight, the church services are after hours when the school is in session. What are they afraid of, the residual effect of a sermon is going to rub off on the students who sit in the same area. Can we just give New York back to the British and say, here they are yours and give California back to Spain. I am fed up with these two states.
Who is for building a border the length of California and around New york in addition to a border at Mexico? Say Aye.
Report Post »gperky
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 5:01pmAye! And I second the motion!
Report Post »NYHuguenot
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 10:14pmAdd Chicago, Austin, TX and Boston and you’ve got a deal!
Report Post »RunFree
Posted on December 15, 2011 at 7:01am@ COFemale — It’s not about kids being tainted with residuals of the Holy Spirit during math class. I, personally, don’t want my tax dollars being used to maintain buildings for church services. Why can’t they use private buildings for their worship? Why should tax payers maintain the buildings they are using? That goes for any religious service for any religion. I’m not against people practicing their religions, but why do the tax payers have to pay for that? I live in one of the poorest parts of LA, and there are at least 6 store-front churches within walking distance from my home–all maintained by the parishioners…and believe me, I can tell you they are not rich. Just as some people are against state-funded abortions, some people are against supporting religious beliefs that offend their own personal beliefs or morals. I am sure you can understand that. “Can we just give New York back to the British and say, here they are yours and give California back to Spain. I am fed up with these two states.” I do believe we should give California back to Mexico, since that’s where we took in from…and it’s nice to see all the warm and fuzzy Christians being a model of Christian love toward others–sending people back to places they’ve never been. Why can’t we discuss things without people going to blows, verbally and ideologically–there is common ground; however when the hypocritical nature of many religious people comes out in this way, it doesn’t convert a soul.
Report Post »inferno
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:16pmAgain the myth of “Seperation of Church and state raises it’s serpent head”. Seperation of church and state is not mentioned in the Constitution. The only proibitions regarding religion are as follows. The state shall not “establish a religion, nor prohibit the practice thereof.“ Please someone show me where the ”seperation of church and state ” is mentioned .
Report Post »apgar1010
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 11:02pmActually, constitutionally speaking, “the state” can establish or not establish whatever it wants. Only CONGRESS is prohibited from establishing religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Many states had an official religion after the constitution was ratified. Nowadays, I’m sure the states themselves have their own state laws that mimic the intent of the U.S. constitution.
Report Post »garylee123
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:14pmWonder if they let muslim students do their daily prayers at school?
Report Post »TheE
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 8:09pmAbsolutely! We can’t infringe on the multiculturalism of non-Christians, but we definitely can’t risk having our self-entitled little monsters exposed to any Gospel, can we?
Report Post »randice
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:00pmIsn‘t this coming from the same state who’s governor was more than happy to provide assistance for the Mosque near Ground Zero?
http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2010/08/10/paterson-offers-ground-zero-mosque-developers-state-to-move-location/
And schools are worrying about ‘blurring lines’? LOL……………………
Report Post »No, it’s just more Christian bashing, which is becoming ever so popular here in the United States.
shirtsbyeric
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:52pmSo we won’t get to hear the opinion of a “Wise Latina”?
Report Post »Patriot Huntress
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:51pmIf a school rents which means there is a fee involved what business is it what goes on in the building when the the fee has been paid. So long as no one tears up the place then why do they care that it is a religious organization. You could deem Atheist organizations as religious since they are a group of like minded people who get together to discuss their belief in the non- existence of a deity,there is no difference.
We need to put public schools out of business. If the churches (ones that believe in the basic principles of the bible were to band together and start their own private schools where the ones who could afford to pay do and then maybe offer some kind of vouchers to the poorest families. I think there would be a large portion of poor families that would enroll their kids in private school. I‘ve felt something for years that this is something I should do but don’t have the means or knowledge, just the will. It would be somewhat like Newman’s Own where you might run several business that the profits went to the school then there would be local folks who have the means and would sponsor a child. It would require a lot of volunteers like retired teachers or former home school parents to fill in the gaps. It could be done but it needs to happen nationwide to make a difference. I’m sure the unions would be scrambling to introduce legislation to stop us which is why it would have to be organized and swiftly put into action. Well I can dream.
Report Post »PASSIONFORCHRIST
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 6:56pmPatriot Huntress ,You are so RIGHT ON!! I’ve got the will also, but no means either.
Report Post »Free the Midwives
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 7:30pmhttp://www.renewanation.org/
Here’s a group trying to provide schooling for all those who want it.
Report Post »RunFree
Posted on December 15, 2011 at 6:44am@ Patriot Huntress —
By Definition, a religion is:
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Atheism does not have a set of beliefs, does not believe in a superhuman agency or agencies, does not have rituals, and does not have a set moral code to govern the conduct of human affairs.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
Atheism does not have a set of fundamental beliefs or practices.
ritual observance of faith.
Atheism does not have any ritualistic observances of faith.
How can you call atheism a religion? That’s like calling off a channel, or bald a hair color. Atheism simply means that you do not believe in one or more gods. I don’t believe in Zeus, Athena, Cupid, Vishnu, or Thor. That means I am atheist towards them. If you are a Christian, you’d be atheist toward Allah. I just believe in one less god than you do.
Stop calling atheism a religion. It is a reaction to a claim about the existence of god(s). Not a set value system with rituals, holidays, and customs.
Report Post »lylejk
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:44pmNew York is full of Godless folk anyway; they are a lost cause group of people and I say let them earn their way to the underworld. We are commanded to evangelize to people the Good News, but there comes a point where that is a lost cause, especially when they already have sold their souls. Good bye to NY I say. I no longer care about them. If it‘s still God’s will, then there will be made a way, otherwise I say good riddence. ‘Nough said. :)
Report Post »encinom
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:03pmAw, to bad, another bible thumper s not coming to NY. Adios!
Report Post »lylejk
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:57pmNot a bible thumper either. Just stating facts. NY is full of Godless folk and any people of virtue left have not tried to rid themselves of them, so they get what they deserve. I have little tolerance for liberals and NY has more then their share of them. I would say I wish they would fall off the continental U.S., but that desire (and the only place where that could be a good chance) goes to California. ‘Nough said. :)
Report Post »josh345
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 5:08pmthere is nothing wrong with new york as a whole, just some people in new york — anyway if your so religious what happened to your “message of peace” — for some reason I don’t think that dumping new york or california under the ocean is very peaceful. just saying, stick to your principles.
Report Post »garyM
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:40pmWhen America ceases to be one nation under God. we’ll be a nation gone under!
Report Post »Ronald Reagan
He also warned us about socialized medicine and Bill and Hillary plowed right on until they got Obama and Godless democratic congress to push it through!
sapper
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:35pmwe need the congress to restrain the court. Take away jurisdiction from the federal courts to hear cases regarding religious issues and make them the state’s responsibility. The congress should pass resolutions further defining the first amendment and denouncing the idea of separation of church and state which is nowhere to be found in the constitution. They should nullify the courts previous rulings on this subject, get rid of dept. of education and return control of our schools back to we the people. This is getting all too tiresome……there is no such thing as separation of church and state. You can’t find this phrase in the constitution and when Jefferson used it he was assuring the church in Danbury Connecticut that the church would be protected from state control……not the other way around.
The establishment clause reads that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof;
The fact that it say AN establishemnt is all the difference in the world as far as intent. Had they said THE establishment of religion then the separation crowd would have a case. The use of AN establishment clearly delineates their intent to be that congress would not favor a particular religion over another nor interfere in the free excercise of all. Secondly, if Congress doesn’t make a law the amendment is not violated hence a kid wearing a jesus shirt is not a violation of anyone elses rights. Pretty simple!
Report Post »encinom
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:07pmWhy can;t they just re-write the constitution and makes this nation a Theocracy already. And the 14th Amendment which applie sthe bill of rights to the States, really is that needed? I mean if a state wants to limit free speech or name a state religon let them, hell let the state’s do away with due process and other Constitutional protections.
Report Post »josh345
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 5:11pmI totally agree with encicom. Sapper, if you want a theocracy, good for you. But America is a FREE country, and Christians aren’t the only people living here!
Report Post »ZAP
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:24pmSchool space for Muslims,only! All others need not apply.
Report Post »JUSTANOTHEROPINION
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:22pmAnd at the beginning of our country Churches doubled as School houses. If the Church can’t rent space then nobody else should be permitted to either for would not that be discrimination?
Report Post »AJAYW
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 4:53pmI agree
Report Post »AJAYW
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:11pmI bet the gays can rent it for partys
Report Post »imperceptible
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:10pmAs could any other non-religious group. And your point is?
Report Post »AJAYW
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 3:47pmimperceptible
Report Post »Point is we build the schools with tax payers money and any organization should be able to rent the buildings after hours, If as you say any non religious group, then the KKK -Black Panthers and all those as long and its not religious group. You people are sick.
SquidVetOhio
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:02pmThe Feds shouldn’t have any say over a public school. This should be a STATE issue. The 10th amendment has been killed.
Report Post »drphil69
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 1:00pmOK, so religious organizations cannot even rent school space for meetings…
IS IT OK FOR THE KKK TO RENT THE SAME SPACE???
This Godless liberalism is making the once great USA look more like the Soviet Union.
I look forward to the day when I can laugh in a STARVING LIBERALS FACE.
BE PREPARED, THE GOVERNMENT WILL NOT TAKE OF YOU NOR PROTECT YOU.
Report Post »blue_sky
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:59pmStop socialism, elect Ron Paul.
Report Post »News RON PAUL ad released TODAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZJYv-8jvLk
toomuchgovt
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:58pmFine the Churches should conduct their services on the PUBLIC sidewalks or in Zuccotti park. It appears the owners don’t mind. But don’t stop preaching.
Report Post »Johnny916
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:56pmChurch and states should be separate.
Report Post »LibertyGoddess
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 2:24pmThey are. Why do you think this is any different? The building is a money maker for other organizations. It is not holding anyone captive for meetings nor does anyone care except the godless liberals. Seriously, liberals wonder why they are so hated.
Report Post »LLATPOH
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:55pmI think it should be argued the other way. If that church can’t use the space under Public Use, then no entity should be able to.
Report Post »sWampy
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:53pmNice to see the government continues it’s 100% track record of always being on the wrong side of all issues.
Report Post »IMPEACHBHO
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:51pmThe Supreme Court has (with the 2 BHO installments) tipped over the scales, removed the blindfolds and have flushed the Constitution.
Report Post »paulusmaximus
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:58pmYes, I wounder if they will impose this in a equal manner in ALL religious groups as atheist now are petitioning as a religion in areas, like chaplains in the military.
Report Post »dwh320
Posted on December 5, 2011 at 12:51pmLooks like the Court has turned it’s back on the Constitution. Progressive anti-Christians win and the nation loses yet more of it;s freedoms.
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