Today Marks the 50th Anniversary of the Prayer Ban in Public Schools (& Here’s the History)
- Posted on June 25, 2012 at 11:52am by
Billy Hallowell
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It’s been 50 years since the U.S. Supreme Court first ruled that government-endorsed prayer in public schools is unconstitutional. The landmark decision, which continues to lay at the center of the nation’s debate over the separation of church and state, forever changed the way that faith and religion are handled in classrooms.
The ongoing contention started when Steven Engel, a Jewish New Yorker, came together with other parents in 1958 to sue New York State over state-endorsed prayer that was being recited in schools. The Supreme Court inevitably sided with Engel and the decision was issued on June 25, 1962 — a day that lives in infamy in the minds of many religious individuals and free-speech advocates.
The invocation in question was one that had been approved by the New York State Board of Regents. The prayer, which read, “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country,” was relatively benign in nature. Still, the parents were adamant that it shouldn’t be uttered in the public sphere.
Engel, who was joined by his wife and seven other parents, claimed that the prayer violated their religious beliefs and practices. Requiring that children utter it, they argued, violated their First Amendment rights, as the government, in their view, was establishing and promoting religion.
The group lost the initial case, as state courts found that the prayer was constitutional so long as it was voluntary (which it was). But, on an appeal, it was the Supreme Court that decided that government-endorsed prayer in schools is, indeed, unconstitutional. Encyclopedia Brittanica has more about the high court’s ruling:
The Supreme Court’s ruling was released on June 25 and found New York’s law unconstitutional by a margin of 6–1 (two justices did not participate in the decision). Hugo L. Black wrote the Supreme Court’s opinion, in which the majority argued “that, by using its public school system to encourage recitation of the Regents’ prayer, the State of New York has adopted a practice wholly inconsistent with the Establishment Clause.” The lone dissent came from Potter Stewart, who argued that the majority had “misapplied a great constitutional principle” and could not understand “how an ‘official religion’ is established by letting those who want to say a prayer say it. On the contrary, I think to deny the wish of these school children to join in reciting this prayer is to deny them the opportunity of sharing in the spiritual heritage of our Nation.” The decision, the first in which the Supreme Court had ruled unconstitutional public school sponsorship of religion, was unpopular with a broad segment of the American public.
This, of course, was only the beginning. It was in 1963 — one year later — when the court banned Bible reading and overturned a state law banning the teaching of evolution. As today commemorates the 50th anniversary of the prayer ruling that is credited with creating and fueling so much angst, a visit back through the history surrounding the conflict between religion and government is warranted.
Deseret News continues, with more about the seemingly never-ending debate over the separation of church and state — a battle that has decades-old roots:
Rulings that prayers during school commencements and athletic events also violated the separation of church and state further fueled the secular-versus-faithful battle. Even unrelated disputes over abortion and health care mandates have emotional roots reaching back 50 years to a bland prayer composed by education officials in upstate New York.
“Engel is seen by some as the first salvo in this long-running battle between religious conservatives and people on the left” who were hostile toward religion, said David Masci, a senior researcher at the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.
Legal scholars agree the emotions generated by Engel are often misplaced, resulting in school officials overreacting to a student praying privately in the cafeteria or politicians calling for a constitutional amendment to allow prayer in public schools. The rancor and confusion has prompted parties on both sides of the school prayer debate to take a second look at the court’s reasoning in the school prayer case and come up with consensus guidelines that allow religious expression in the classroom.
While the Engel vs. Vitale case is important, the debate started years before the case gained steam. In fact, religious instruction by clergy had already been banned in public schools a few years earlier in the McCollum vs. Board of Education case (although it was still allowed in buildings not owned by the government during school days). ChurchStateLaw.com has more about this intriguing legal battle:
A year after its decision in Everson v. Board of Education (1947) the Supreme Court acted under the principles of that case to invalidate, for the first time ever, a state practice on grounds that it established religion. An avowed atheist, Vashti McCollum, had challenged her local (Champaign, Illinois) school board’s “released time” program under which teachers from all religious groups choosing to participate were allowed to offer religious instruction in the school for one hour once a week. Students in grades four to nine had the option of attending the religion class of their choice (as approved by parents) or else continuing their regular secular studies; the religion teachers were not paid by the state but were subject to the approval and supervision of the school superintendent. Mrs. McCollum asked that the board of education put an end to any kind of religious instruction in its public schools. She lost in the Illinois courts, but the Supreme Court ruled 8 to 1 that the “released time” program violated the ban on establishment.
What followed from the Engel and McCollum decisions, among others, was the eradication of prayer and religion from schools, something many on the conservative end — particularly those with a faith bent — lament. At the time of the decision, too, many Americans viewed the court’s ruling as an attack on religious liberty.
“Within a decade, religious expression was pushed out of public schools in a way that was really wrong,” proclaims Kim Colby, who is senior counsel with the Christian Legal Society’s Center for Law and Religious Freedom. “Too many school administrators took that decision as a green light to try to eradicate religion from public schools.”
After all, schools serve as a special case when it comes to the separation of church and state. While the Supreme Court allowed prayer in other public settings to stand, school prayer was banished. Since children are impressionable and teachers are authority figures, religion in educational settings was treated as an issue to be examined quite fervently.
Decades later, the debate rages on (consider the Rhode Island prayer mural that received a plethora of coverage this year). While many charge that the public school system has taken the ruling and subsequent Supreme Court decisions too far, others maintain that restrictions haven’t gone far enough.
Considering the ongoing interest and contention surrounding these incidents, the drama isn’t likely to end any time soon. You can read more about the prayer ban and the division between church and state that has ensued here.
(H/T: Deseret News)
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Comments (241)
vaman
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:36pmEveryone can still pray in school. It hasn’t not been stopped. Close your eyes, grit your teeth and pray…just do it silently. God can still hear you, just not the rest of us. TRUE believers only care if god can hear them.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:44pmthey seem to think group prayer is somehow more powerful. makes you wonder how much they really believe in the power of prayer. cognitive dissidence is funny like that.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:02pmGreat, so now our freedom to speech will be prohibited too? It would be great if liberals in school could all promote their Marixist propaganda by being silent too, just so the rest of us won’t hear it. By the way, prayer is not necessairly religious. Prayer, among a few other things, may just imply a request, inquiry, or begging for some favor, benefit, or protection. Heck, even believing in God is not necessairly religious. Just because I believe my rights come from our Creator, does not mean I’m religious. Liberals are just fools. They twist everything. If a student wants to yell, I love Justine Bieber, in the hallway, what’s prohibiting me from saying, I love God, outloud? Of course, the double standard, hypocritic nonsense liberals preach. I‘d say that’s discrimination, and censorship. And last but not least, public schools should be governed by localities, not national counsels or justices that don’t know squat about a city two thousand miles away from DC.
Report Post »DoseofReality
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:35pmColt – You are free to state that you love god, you just cant have teacher led prayer supporting one religion over any other. Do you understand that? If your teacher got up and led a prayer giving ones soul to Justin Bieber than that would be equivalent….
Report Post »lukerw
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:37pmAnd in Punishment… GOD Allowed… Obama to become President!
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:43pmDoseofReality
Why should a federal judge or supreme court justice deny a local school from deciding their own rules? That’s nationalism. It was tried in Germany under Hitler.
“…We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness… We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare… And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”
THANK GOD these modern, delusional, ignorant, misinformed, leftist, radical judges were NOT present during our founding.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:50pmAnyone who does not believe prayer is still allowed in schools has not seen an unprepared student before test-time.
Report Post »Dale
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:07pmVaman;
The Feds may not limit establishing or EXERCISING a religion. The States may (although they have not recently). Limiting group prayer is a gigantic overstep. Just as anyone may (and many do, I think, come test time) pray, everyone is free not to participate. I really hate the opt-out provisions governments establish. If they have such a good idea, people should have the opportunity to opt in, and that would validate the idea’s support. The Feds creating a ‘wall’ separating State and Religion is bogus – and I pray, someday will be struck down. Jefferson’s reference was to protect Religion from the State, not the State from Religion.
Report Post »Thomas
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:21pmAnd look how great the schools have become over the last 50 yrs. At least a few kids didn’t feel left out and I wonder what those kids grew up to be if they are still alive?
Report Post »DoseofReality
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:27pmColt – so you would have no problem with muslim led prayer in your son or daughters school if that school board decided thats what they wanted to do? They would whip out that prayer rug every morning and your son would be kneeling right next to everyone else praying to allah. If you would be OK with that, then maybe Ive misread you, but I have a feeling you wouldnt be
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:40pmDoseofReality I’d send them to another school, home school them, make petitions to the school or town, convert the people, or make mutual compromises with my community members. Public schools should not be run by elites, or exclusively by the Government. We should go back to “common schools”. If a community is diverse, than that community should determine certain prayers, which would be inclusive or non-sectarian. We should not have one size fits all law. Nationalism as advocated by Marxism never works. We have a federal republic and union of several free and independent states for a reason, and a dang good one for that.
Report Post »scarebear83
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 4:05pm@ Dose- “They would whip out that prayer rug every morning and your son would be kneeling right next to everyone else praying to allah.”
Then that would be wrong, to force a child to pray to something they don’t believe in? Here’s the thing though, WHO is forcing anyone to participate in prayer? I would like to know because that IS unconstitutional. However I find no evidence of kids being forced to say the pledge, pray or anything that goes against their conscience… if they are an atheist that is. If one is a Christian well they are basically forced to sit down and shut up and forced to listen to the evolution gunk they teach in schools.
Report Post »The_Jerk
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:26pm“The ongoing contention started when Steven Engel, a Jewish New Yorker, came together with other parents in 1958 to sue New York State over state-endorsed prayer that was being recited in schools.”
I’m tired of the denial. Jews are the problem. Fact tells us that. Give credit where credit is due. If prayer were unconstitutional, it would not have taken a court over 150 years to find it. Jewish activists brought on, and maintain this anti-Christian movement.
Report Post »TACHYON
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 10:34pmPhillyAtheist…read the Bible before you knock it.
Matthew 18:20
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
You who hate the Bible and have never read it with understanding are sooo easy to disprove.
Report Post »DoseofReality
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 7:54amI just dont understand why there needs to be teacher led prayer in any public schools. There are christian schools, churches on virtually every corner in America, religious retreats, every day after school or prior to school, etc. School should be abouth mathematics, history (I have no problem with teaching the bible in a history class), science, english, etc. I just dont understand why all those other venues are not good enough for you guys…
Report Post »blackyb
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:34pmThose who think God is not good enough for their schools are reaping what they sewed. Parents should take their children out of any school who will not allow the Ten Commandments and prayer in school. What is left in the schools for children is: The communists, the bullies, the filth, the pediphiles, the cursing, disobedience and disrespect of parents, disrespect of teachers and students by one another, a progression of lawlessness. These people have proved they have nothing to offer students but early droping out, and a derranged outlook for making a life for themselves and no regard for one another. Close all public schools and put your children where they can learn and be safe from evil people who are filling your child’s head with filth, etc. Your children are reaping the rewards of hedonism. All universities who promote Socialis, Communism and the like sould not be funded by our government. This United States was formed as a Republic under God, and it should remain so. Teachers and professors who require socialist programs in order to graduate are nothing more than stooges for those wanting to overthrow this government. Be careful where you spend your money to educate your children. These children should learn skills as well and learn how to build their own homes and plant their own crops and learn what is needed to survive. There are other courses they can take without having to learn communism or socialism. Close the communist universities.
Report Post »AsatruPride1979
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:09pmWhat exactly would be the point to having the 10 Commandments in the schools? Thou shalt have no other Gods before me? Anti-Freedom. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife? Kids have no idea what that is nor should they at that age. Make no graven images? Once again anti-Freedom. Take not the Lords name in vain? That’s a matter of personal vernacular that is a direct result of how well the parents raised the child. Remember the Sabbath Day? This excludes those who are not of the three major monotheistic religions and thus has no bearing on them. Thou shalt not commit adultery? Once again something kids really don’t nor should know about. The things that pertain to ALL kids are don’t steal, don’t kill and honor your parents, which the onus lies on the parents to raise their children with those morals as opposed to the schools doing it for you. So, no having the Ten Commandments up in school would be idiotic.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:22pmAt the founding of this nation, commandments 1-4 were very well respected, even among non religious people. Our nation has always acknowledged a Supreme Being, and taken a day of rest, for the purpose of attending divine service, whether in public or private life.
On May 2, 1778, General George Washington issued these orders to his troops at Valley Forge:
“The Commander-in-Chief directs that Divine service be performed every Sunday at 11 o’clock, in each Brigade which has a Chaplain. Those Brigades which have none will attend the places of worship nearest to them. It is expected that officers of all ranks will, by their attendance, set an example for their men. While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to laud the more distinguished Character of Christian. The signal instances of Providential goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labors with complete success demand from us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of gratitude and piety to the Supreme Author of all good.”
Report Post »Judy Lynn
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:30pm50 years ago we prayed in school, respected our elders, learn to get along with each other. 50 years ago we were taught the 10 commandments, golden rule. 50 years ago we were taught you worked for what you got or you did without. Today, no prayer in school, no respect for our elders, we can’t get along, i.e. bullying and the golden rule is do unto others before they do unto to you. Today, we hold our hands out and expect everything to be given to us no questions ask, people won’t work but sit back and expect the government to keep them up. Today, you don’t get two parents in a household and divorces and shacking up is common place. Today what was right is now wrong. What was legal is now illegal. How did taking prayer out of schools help this country and the school system. It just help us to be more ignorant to others, more selfish and demanding. We are not a kind and gentle people anymore, but hard and callus. The government has taken over in our schools and now they are trying to take over in our private lives as well. So how does taking prayer of the schools helped. You tell me. The statistics don’t lie. Are we better off now then 50 years ago. I don’t think so. When we become immoral and amoral instead of trying to be moral then we have failed, not only ourselves but our children and grandchildren. We have failed this nation as a whole.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:33pmThe Ten Commandments are the greatest, most simple set of Laws ever given to Man. Any society that respects these will learn to uphold our God given rights, grow up in strong families, respect private property, and show forth piety, justice, honesty, and accountability. Something all our founding fathers believed in.
THANK GOD these modern delusional, ignorant, misinformed, leftist, radical judges were NOT present during our founding.
“Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual… Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us.” John Hancock
Report Post »greatgrandma
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 5:29amHere is a letter to the Murfreesboro, Tenn. from the Mosque being built there.Below are a few of the finer points, quoted verbatim with no additional language. By clicking on the link you can read for yourself where Abdou Kattih of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro is ordering the taxpayer funded school conform to Islamic Law in the following ways:
- Men and boys are always to be covered from the navel to the knee in public.
- Muslim females are required to wear loose-fitting and non-revealing clothing which includes a head covering.
- Some of the five prayers may fall within regular school hours. It takes less than 15 minutes to accomplish the prayer. It includes:
Washing: Before the prayer, Muslims perform a simple wash with clean water. This is normally performed in the restroom sink.
Prayer space and Time: During the prayer, the Muslim will stand, bow, and touch the forehead to the ground. This may be performed in any quite, clean room. Total privacy is not required.
Attention: During the prayer, Muslims are fully engaged and they may not respond to a conversation. Students and teachers should not take offense of the worshiper not answering their call. However, in case of an emergency, the Muslim will respond to an announcement by stopping the prayer immediately.
- Fasting students may ask to use the library instead of the cafeteria during lunch. Also they may ask to be excused from strenuous physical activities during fasting.
- Muslim bo
Report Post »Claudius
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:33pmThis ruling was wrong. The Founders wanted a separation between church and state so the government would not prosecute some churches while upholding others. They were trying to avoid Europe’s religious wars with Catholics vs. Protestants. A simple prayer not associated with any distinct church does not violate separation of church and state.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:56pmThe Christian sects cannot agree if in the Lord’s Pray you are forgiven from trespasses or debts. Plus not only Christians attend public schools. The Government has no place endorsing on religion’s God and pray over they others.
Report Post »nflanagan1
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:00pmTo take it even further, the ruling is wrong because the Constitution says the GOVERNMENT (law makers) can’t pass a law regulating religion…since the schools can’t MAKE laws, the ruling should be reviewed and overturned by default.
A school can implement int‘s own policy that the SCHOOL doesn’t allow prayer/religious expression, which is completely different.
Report Post »AsatruPride1979
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:12pmThe prayer may not be linked to any church, but it is linked to a certain religion, namely Christianity. Now, I have no problems with a silent time for prayer set aside for the kids, but for the kids to recite a certain prayer out loud is ludicrous.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:14pmEnciom is a proven fool. Funny thing is that Jefferson, as President, approved federal funds to construct Christian churces for the Indians. He believed that Morality, Knowledge and Religion were necessary for good Government. He also encouraged and funded ministries to preach the Gospel unto the Indians, with some means be through Governmental aid. Heck, as Governor of Virginia, he proclaimed days of prayer and fast. The only thing the Government can’t do is proclaim a certain sect, denomination, ecclesiastical institution, or religious organaziation as one in power with Government. This nonsense, that Christianity, in general, can’t be preffered over other religions is ridiculous, and unsubstantiated. Christianity is a set of principles and values, not an actual organization. Heck, ALL our founding Presidents took their oath on the Christian bible. Diversity or muticulturism? LMAO! Our founders detested such nonsense.
“The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the independence and liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts of common dangers, sufferings, and successes.” Washington’s Farewell Address 1796
Report Post »KenInIL
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:17pmBy this ruling Atheism has become the official state religion — which is what the 1st amendment attempted to prohibit.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:36pmThe renowned Constitutional scholar, Henry Black (1860-1927), author of Black’s Law Dictionary, and editor of The Constitutional Review from 1917 to 1927, recognized and acknowledged America’s Christian foundations. In his Handbook of American Constitutional Law (2nd ed. 1897, 3rd ed. 1910, 4th ed. 1927), he stated,
“…that many of our best civil and social institutions, and the most important to be preserved in a free and civilized state, are founded upon the Christian religion, or upheld and strengthened by its observance; that the whole purpose and policy of the law assume that we are a nation of Christians, and while toleration is the principle in religious matters, the laws are to recognize the existence of that system of faith, and our institutions are to be based on that assumption ; that those who are in fact Christians have a right to be protected by law against wanton interference with the free and undisturbed practice of their religion and against malicious attacks upon its source or authority, calculated and intended to affront and wound them ; and that the prevalence of a sound morality among the people is essential to the preservation of their liberties and the permanence of their institutions, and to the success and prosperity of government, and the morality which is to be fostered and encouraged by the state is Christian morality, and not such as might exist in the supposititious “state of nature” or in a pagan country.”
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:42pm@Colt
“This nonsense, that Christianity, in general, can’t be preffered over other religions is ridiculous, and unsubstantiated. Christianity is a set of principles and values, not an actual organization.”
If the Establishment clause means anything, it means that no perference can be given to any reiligon including Christianity. Christianity is an umbrella term that covers all sects within Christianity. The Government must be neutral towards religion. Of course most on the Blaze are Christian Taliban, looking to replace the Republic with a Theocracy.
Report Post »AsatruPride1979
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:04pm“the morality which is to be fostered and encouraged by the state is Christian morality, and not such as might exist in the supposititious “state of nature” or in a pagan country.””
Report Post »Yeah the Christian morality that allowed the massacre of hundreds if not thousands of Saxon pagans, the stealing and almost absolute destruction of native American culture and near genocide of them. And to keep historic honesty, our system is based off of an ancient pagan nation known as the Roman Empire. There’s tons of pagan icons around the Capitol that acknowledges this. For example, the Capitol building dome features a painting of the major Gods of Rome.
colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:24pmNice try Encinom, you’re still wrong, and brainwashed. If the Establishment clause means anything, it means that no perference can be given to any ESTABLISHMENT of reiligon. Christianity is not an Establishment. Madison was coauthor with George Mason of Virginia’s Declaration of Rights of 1776, and stated, “it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity, towards each other”. Our founding fathers never thought that encouraging religious principles would ever be prohibited by the same Constitution they wrote. The first amendment denied to Government the power to legislate in order to create an ecclesiastical institution run by the selfsame Government. In order to avoid preference to one sect or denomination, Government was forbidden from legislating concerning any one Establishment. The first Amendment does not say, Congress shall make no law respecting religion, Congress shall not respect religion, or Congress shall make no law about religion. It says, Congress shall make no law respecting an ESTABLISHMENT OF religion. Jefferson wrote in a 1802 letter that he didn’t want his administration to be a “government without religion,” but one that would “strengthen… religious freedom”.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:32pmAsatruPride1979 That just proves that these liberals are a bunch of hypocrites and ARE OUT TO MOSTLY DESTROY CHRISTIANITY, plain and simple.
The Washington Monument is an Obelisk, representative of the Egyptian culture and religion, and signified worshiping the Sun. The Columns which are so prominent in many Government buildings were those same ones used in Greek and Roman culture to uphold their Temples honoring their sky gods. The word Capitol has its origin in Roman religion and mythology wherein the planet Jupiter was honored and worshiped as the King of the gods, thus the main central point of a State. The District of Columbia’s streets and certain buildings are aligned with the stars in heaven to represent certain astrological signs. The statute on top of the Capitol building, and others in front of Government buildings, represent ancient deities honored by the ancient cultures.
Report Post »Claudius
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:46pm@Colt1860
Ancient architecture does not represent pagan deities, it represents representitive government. Roman and Greek columns as well as other features represent the democratic features of those civilizations. No one looks at them and sees monuments to ancient deities. Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians connected them with their gods but the Founders connected them with democratic government just as most of the U.S. does today. Symbols and meanings change.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:48pm@Colt you prove my point.
“Our founding fathers never thought that encouraging religious principles would ever be prohibited by the same Constitution they wrote. The first amendment denied to Government the power to legislate in order to create an ecclesiastical institution run by the selfsame Government. In order to avoid preference to one sect or denomination,” How can Government mandating pray through its agent, the School, not be an Establishment of one ecclesiastical institution over all others, given that prays between the various Christian sects differ, let alone the fact that many schools have non-christians in attendance. Having a pray in the traditions of the Quakers, Catholics, Mormon, or any other Christian Sect shows perferance to that sect over the others, and a favortism towards the Christian faith over the other faiths.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:30pmEncinom, you prove my point. The Constitution assigns to the federal government no such powers to deal in such issues. Those are matters left to the states, or the people therein. The fourteenth ammendment has been abused and taken advantage of by far leftists to extremely radicalize our form of Government. The founding fathers would be horrified over this modern escalation of a centralized national force of power. They intended for us to have a federal republic consisting of a union of several free and independent states. Our country is made up of states, not one ever growing, powerful body of men.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:31pm@Colt,
Now I understanding how poor you knowledge is. Your beef is with the 14th Amendment. I guess you do not care for the Bill of Rights, remove the 14th Amendment and any State is free to violate any right protected by the Bill of Rights. Liberal New York could outlaw the New York Post and throw Conservative writers in jail (no Freedom of the Press). May be enough Muslim residents gain control in MI and force all to adhere to Shaira law.
It is the 14th Amendment that ensures the Rights we have as Amercian Citizens are not infringed upon by the States. The Founders intended for (1) a strong centeral government (reason we did away with the articles of confederation); and (2) the ability to modifiy the Constitution as need be, the 14th Amendment is one of those modifications. American history continued after Washington left office, the Constitution was amended and the Courts reinterpetted clauses for the changing years. Only fools believe the revisionist history taught by Barton.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:06pmEncinom, Now I understanding how poor your knowledge is. The fourteenth amendment was designed to equally protect individual rights guaranteed for all citizens, not to radically expand Government, create new constitutional powers, or totally transform our form of Government. The fourteenth did not prohibit states their reserved powers, but mandated that they treat their citizens equally. LMAO! Your revisionism is very laughable. The fourteenth gave NO new powers to the federal Government. That means, the federal judiciary has NO jurisdiction over Education, as that has never been delegated to Congress in the Constitution. And for the millionth time, public prayer is NOT an Establishment of anything. Jefferson himself, as Governor of Virginia, proclaimed days of prayer and fasting. And further stated, those were state matters, or issues left for the people of that state, something the federal Government should not intermingle with.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:54pmCOLT1860, LOL, go to the link that Encinom provided and check out the videos and read the text. Beyond that go to their links and for that matter start putting some of those names and titles into your search engine. That Chris Roda starts to make it sound as if the founding fathers could not have possibly intended that Freedom of Religion was an intentional part of the 1st Amendment. It actually gets embarrassingly funny. I’m still checking it out but keep checking back here. If you have the stomach to get into this I’m almost positive that you will start to recognize many names in the usual suspect atheists.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 11:54pm@Colt,
Its a shame you have no understanding of what the various amendments of the Constitution actual say. You do realize your opinion is worthless, the Supreme Court going back to the 1873 Slaughter-House Case agrees with my interpretation of the Amendment. Is funny, that you are basically arguing a revisionist view of American legal history. The fact that you need to contort the facts, only proves how wrong you are.
@RJJinGadsden, here is the difference, Barton is a fraud and that book exposes him as such. Beck and Barton rely on fools such as yourself, too lazy to do you own research and too proud to admit you were work, to continue buying their pseudo history.
“Barton peddles the proposition that America is a Christian nation, legally and historically. He asserts that the principle of church-state separation, while not in the Constitution, has systematically been used to rule religion out of the public arena, particularly the public school system. His presentation has just enough ring of truth to make him credible to many people. His work, however, is laced with exaggerations, half-truths and misstatements of fact.” J. Brent Walker, Executive Director, Baptist Joint Committee
http://www.bjconline.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2377&Itemid=110
College Professors have review and bunked the theories of Barton as outright lies. http://www.religiondispatches.org/books/atheologies/6033/the_quixotic_task_of_debunking_david_barton/
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 1:44amLMAO! Encinom is posting links that shows some blogger posting his opinions about some “research” done by some other guy who quotes some other guy (leftist buddy) who publishes his own interpretations of events, as cited by some other guy, and never presents primary sources as they are, but only with bias commentary, or twisted drivel. Yeah, that sure is some “debunking”. LOL. You brainwashed, misinformed, lefties will make up anything to make yourselves look credible. No wonder the ratings of the MSM outlets keep going down. You guys are as useless as my belly button. They can never truthfully answer, with a straight face, why all the founding fathers voluntarily took a constitutional oath on the Christian bible, and why all the state constitutions acknowledged God during the founding of this federal republic. I guess peer pressure? LOL.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 11:15am@Colt,
What is funny, that in the light of actual evidence, Ph. D. point by point debunking the bogus history offered by Barton, its just that Beckerheads, like yourself are to stupid to admit you have been had.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 12:30pmEncinom seems to ignorant and misinformed too understand the differences between establishments of religion, and religion in general; establishments, and principles and values; mandates and forced adherence, and morality and virtue, etc. These lefties lump EVERYTHING into that one word “religion”. They can’t understand that Christianity is not an estabilshment, but a set of principles, values, and moral beliefs. An establishment is an actual organization created by men, constituting their own rules for the administration thereof. The school reading a bible verse to students does no such thing, just as reading Harry Potter does not create a reading club, book club, or publishing company. Encinom is too stupido to understand any of this.
Report Post »KMAC321
Posted on July 1, 2012 at 4:14amIf what you say is true, why is our Constitution specifically set up in a secular manner? Why does it protect FROM religion as much as protects religious freedom? If our Constitution were psecifically to protect your Christian values, then why did they deem in unconstitutional to pray in public school? Do you not know that our country was set up the way it was to protect from religious persecution? Like…The Church of England perhaps? I have nothing against religion, although I do not believe in one…but we live in a secular society to protect people from religious persecution AS WELL AS to give you the lovely freedom to believe what you will. It works for ALL, not just Christians or Muslims or Mormons, etc. No one religion can rule. Period. Religious freedom is supposed to ensure that. What you believe is no less important that what someone else believes. That is what this country was founded on. The very fact that you would have it be otherwise is completely UNAmerican. From many, one. Does this ring a bell? THAT is the principal this country was founded on. From many, one. NOT In god we trust. To think that any one religion trumps another? NOT AMERICAN. From many, one. We all get to be different, and different isn’t bad. YOUR different shouldn’t trump MY different, and vice versa. If our founding fathers had wanted it any other way, it would be so. The Constitution reflects great forethought on their part to ensure rights for all, including you.
Report Post »jackact
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:32pm50 years ago, how ironic.
Report Post »That’s about when our children stopped learning any employable skills in public school.
WarEagleVII
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:22pmIf you notice about all of these cases, it is all about restricting your choice. Before these court cases, you had the option to pray to God or not in school. Now, you have no choice. You must do what the athiests had the choice to do all along, which is nothing.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:32pmi guess praying silently is not a choice? you folks need to get everything you want, don’t you?
Report Post »KMAC321
Posted on July 1, 2012 at 3:57amPlease don’t blame the atheists. Blame the Constitution if you need to blame someone. It was set up this way for a reason, that reason being that no one religion should rule. If you know your history, our country was set up that way to be free from religious persecution…in our case the Church of England. Regardless of whether or not our founding fathers had religion or spiritual beliefs in their lives, they set our country up so that all religion is welcome here, as well as lack of religion. Living by secular rules is a system that is fair to everyone…and it amazes me every time I hear religious people complaining, because living in a secular society gives you the right to worship as you would like to worship. It puts no one religion in front of another. I’m an atheist, but I absolutely believe that religious people have the right to believe and worship however they like, just as I prefer to pray to the altar of common sense…but if your religion were to have the right to school prayer it would infringe on the rights of other people. Period. Pray at your church, or in your home, or within your community as you see fit. You have that right. Instead of blaming, be thankful that you have it. Be thankful that you live in a country that affords you religious freedom. Be aware, however, that religious freedom extends to all citizens…not just christians. We accept ALL and favor NONE. I accept you and your religion, please be respectful of the beliefs of other
Report Post »SquidVetOhio
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:02pmSince athiests are all about facts and things that are measurable I ask this, since this SCOTUS decision was handed down, has the education level and crime rates in our public schools increased or decreased? Just looking for facts …… What I will get is 1001 reasons why there is some other reason for it.
Report Post »cessna152
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:26pmThe question remains… are things better now than in 1958? Crime? Divorce? Drugs? Murder?
I think not… Sorry, but as a nation moves away from God so does morality.
Report Post »22AUTOMATIC
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:26pmHistorian and Wallbuilders founder David Barton charts and research that shows the direct correlation of Judeo/Christian morals being removed from schools and the rise of culture issues that followed (teen pregnancy, drug abuse, test scores, elder disrespect etc) He has it traced to almost the exact moment when things began to turn for the worst. I don‘t have access to his most recent videos but below are links to two older videos so you’ll get the idea. Note: After he was on the Daily Show he was the #1 search trend on Google for two straight days (the first Daily Show guest every to achieve that honor) When he speaks, people listen.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6063727/removal_of_prayer_from_school_the_devastating_effect_barton/
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4318930/the_real_reason_american_education_has_slipped_david_barton/
Bottom line is wherever you stand on school prayer the hard facts show that the past 50 years our country has tanked in education. I’m sure if we got together some mastermind groups at high levels of our nation we could find a way to achieve the pre-1960 positive educational results without infrindging on anyone’s religious freedom.
Report Post »MastrSSG
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:28pmWhen we prayed, said the Pledge of Allegiance and when chewing gum in class was a serious offense and was enforced we had better education with better more polite respectful well-mannered kids. I get complements on my kids everyplace I go whether I’m with my kids or not. EVERYONE tells me that they have never seen such polite well-mannered well behaved kids. No they aren’t babies they are teen and pre-teen. I don’t beat them and they aren’t scared of me but they do have a healthy fear of me. More than that I love them dearly and they love me. I have been a single father for 11 yrs after my wife passed in 2001. So I don’t want to hear about being a single parent and how hard it is to have the time to pay attention to them.
Report Post »Ayla_me
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:42pmWhat the SCOTUS ought to have done, was to allow an independant school to operate on a totally secular-style, in each major city, while maintainting the “status-quo style teachings at the rest” (with free choice amoung those parent who wished their children to be brought up with no Biblical-awareness) and THEN determine the “social objectives” met in both catagories. Was the score of one higher than the other? Were the children more “well-adjusted“ and ”civilized” in one vs. the other? I truly believe that the SCOTUS threw the “baby out with the bathwater” in their decisions. And look what it has led to: children with no moral decency nor compass to rule their lives. People with no idea of how the Bible was sooo infulencial in so many areas of our life: Laws, Sayings, Literature, Allegories, etc. “By the skin of [one's] teeth”, “the apple of [one's] eye”, “the patience of Job”, “old as Methuselah”…these are but few references in one’s everyday life that trace back to the Bible. By kicking out the Bible, and its studies, we, as a nation….and the SCOTUS really DID go AGAINST the people oif the U.S.A., have so effectivly “dumbed down” the generation that began with this ill-concieved and ill-enforced, law, that we no longer can compete effectively in any sort of Real World Life. Add in the fact that “the Powers That Be” ordained, in much the same time, fallacy teachings that have since proved incorrect. So sad.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:58pmAyla_me
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:42pm
What the SCOTUS ought to have done, was to allow an independant school to operate on a totally secular-style, in each major city, while maintainting the “status-quo style teachings at the rest”
________________
Seperate but equal is unequal.
Organized pray has no place in a PUBLIC SCHOOL.
Report Post »Godfather.1
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:38pmIt’s quite funny that all of you want forced religion in schools and then claim that our society was much better off because of it. You claim that it was great to have school teach children certain morals.
However, when schools teach about sexuality you all claim that that is the parents’ job, not the schools.
Also, when schools try to implement health eating habits on kids by offering healthier lunches or getting rid of sodas in the cafeterias, you are all up in arms about how diet is the parents’ job and schools should just leave the kids alone.
Your flip flopping positions on these topics show just how fully of BS you all are.
Report Post »quovadis
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:01pmIt is not up to the public schools to uphold/encourage Christianity and or Prayer. It is up to parents to teach their children and to practice it, if this is what the family believes in. But the school, should also not infringe upon a child’s right to pray if this prayer is done quietly and not “in the face” of others. But sadly, the “in your face” folks are the secularists, who take offense at everything which might denote Christ somehow. So, schools and society in general have over reacted to the cultural leanings of anti-Christ. The American public schools were initially Protestant in structure. Catholics didn’t want their children taught anti-Catholic beliefs in the Prostestant public schools, hence the Catholic parochial school system was began. Soon after, people like Horace Mann, John Dewey, John D. Rockefeller at the like changed the focus of public education from education of all to the socialist model of producing workers for the burgeoning industrial age. No, it is not up to schools to promote prayer, it is up to Christians (or whatever you may profess) to teach and practice it and live a virtuous Christian life. Just don’t let the p.s. dictate morallity and virtue. Forty or fifty years ago, they used to promote some sort of virtue and control, but not any more. Anything goes. Public schools still promote a “worker” production mentallity, conformity disguised as individualism… worker, secular, ants……
Report Post »MBA
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:59pmWe all know what happened to (was her name) madelein murray o’hare who was one of the criminals who started this–she ended up dead as a door nail after having all her cash ripped off by her family and people unknown I guess that atheism did a lot of good for her.
Report Post »davecorkery
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:51pmWrong. She was ripped off by a good wonderful godly christian man (aren’t they all?) who posed as an atheist and who then murdered her. I thought there was some kind of a commandment against that. Read a book (comics don’t count)
Report Post »Freebird
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:16pmThat a boy Dave,
No use posting facts when a good slam on Christians will do.
Report Post »The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:58pm-” After all, schools serve as a special case when it comes to the separation of church and state.
While the Supreme Court allowed prayer in other public settings to stand, school prayer was banished. “-
I didn’t actually know this until now.
-” Since children are impressionable and teachers are authority figures, religion in educational settings was treated as an issue to be examined quite fervently. “-
You try to condition your kids to abstain from smoking, drinking and swearing by removing such elements from your television. Is that the same as removing religion from classroom settings? I don’t think so.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:53pmtime to overturn this ruling. we should have prayer mats in all schools (for knee padding) and required prayer for ALL students, at least twice a day. that’s how it works in Islamic countries. more religion! let’s be more religious than the Muslims! c’mon, we can do it!!!
(snark meter scoring off the charts)
Report Post »The_Cabrito_Goat
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:59pmLearn to troll less obviously.
Report Post »SREGN
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:03pmTake a look at the statistics for teen pregnancy, drop-out rates, school violence, alcohol and drug addiction rates, etc prior to 1963 and post 1963 and you’ll see very graphically why removing prayer from school was a bad idea.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:13pmCABRITO – you must not know what snark means. also, look at my name. i’m obviously being sarcastic. i’m a well known troll around these parts, btw.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:16pmSREGN – please provide some evidence that the numbers you allege are correlated to lack of school prayer. thanks.
Report Post »SquidVetOhio
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:16pmBig difference, (and you know it), no one FORCED children to pray. I actually don’t want teacher led prayer. Just give the kids a moment of silence to pray to whomever or to pray to themselves.
Report Post »cessna152
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:34pmThis is why you need to discredit the founders. Our country’s heritage is based on Jesus Christ and the God of Abraham. It’s pretty obvious in the Federalist papers and “The Declaration of independence” this country was founded on God.
Try going to another country and changing their Heritage… you’ll be killed. BTW, Religious freedom is being able to Worship the way you want. The Federal government should not be involved in schools, that’s the states job.
Oh, ironically, most colleges and the idea of schools were Christian.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:36pmSQUID – i’m fine with that. although i think the prayers should be silent.
Report Post »FoxholeAtheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:03pmCessna, please be so kind as to point out where the 10 Commandments are located in the Constitution.
Report Post »septictank
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:52pmPublic schools are just that…public schools! To try and insert religion I find to be totally unacceptable. If parents want religion in school then send their children to a religious school. But allow school districts to have their own policy when it comes invocations, benedictions, etc., at graduations, etc. But also let’s take a step-back and look at our public schools! DareI say many of them are so sad! Decency has all but gone out the window! And the morals of some teachers are truly a disgrace!
Report Post »SREGN
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:27pmThat’s why the voucher system is such a good idea. Parents could again choose schools whose courses of instruction could include moral behavior. Public schools could still teach their secular humanist religious values of earth-worship and prayer to their gods of tolerance and pantheism to the children of parents who wish that sort of thing without forcing them on children whose parents would choose otherwise.
Report Post »YoshiFD3S
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:50pmHow about Blaze does an article that spins off of this one, on how the level of moral decline in this country within the past 50 years. Homosexuality, divorce, domestic violence, you name it…
C’mon Blaze. Do your jobs and showcase the direct parallelism that exists between the removal of God and our country’s moral decline.
Report Post »normalmom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:57pmYou and many others just in what you typed in shows that there are thinking people out there who can see the parallels already. Good point though.
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:59pmi think that the Christians are the leaders in divorce and domestic violence. this might explain it:
“Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.” – Ephesians 5:22-24.
Report Post »red_white_blue2
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:22pmI Love and second this suggestion. We need to take stories and report correlation between how unconstitutional policy is effecting our culture so as to reinsert Christianity back into our culture.
Report Post »RAMJR
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:45pmTaking the Bible, out of content and context, is easy for anyone to do, and Jesus warns will be a voice of ignorance and immorality.
He also points out that His words are not for those that mock Him and His children, and even gives the statement of not wasting time on them in, “Pearls to swine.”
It is easy to get a wrong perspective, when you pick and choose.
Ephesians 5 begins with verse 21 “Submit to one another (husbands and wives) out of reverence for Christ.”….Funny how you left that truth out.
Then 22-25, which you posted…but, imagine that, it continues.
26 “to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”32 This is a profound mystery, but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”
“He who has ears, let him hear”…If you really want the truth, read all of Ephesians 5. Many ‘Christians’ are not. God
Report Post »DoseofReality
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:58pmYou really think there is less domestic violence now than there was back then? Are you serious? Women didnt have the ability to leave abusive relationships, it was all swept under the rug!! Also, you think we were more moral in the 50s then we are now? I guess it depends how much melanin you have in your skin, especially as a southerner…fools
Report Post »morningzoo
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:49pmLet’s keep prayer in those tax free churches, its is downright stupid to force prayer on kids in public school
Report Post »DIVINEPROVIDENCE1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:46pmBenjamin Rush SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SURGEON GENERAL OF THE CONTINENTAL ARMY; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; “FATHER OF AMERICAN MEDICINE”; TREASURER OF THE U. S. MINT; “FATHER OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION”
The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations! . . . My only hope of salvation is in the infinite tran¬scendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Noth¬ing but His blood will wash away my sins [Acts 22:16]. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly! [Revelation 22:20]98
I do not believe that the Constitution was the offspring of inspiration, but I am as satisfied that it is as much the work of a Divine Providence as any of the miracles recorded in the Old and New Testament.99
By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects… It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published.100
[T]he greatest discoveries in science have been made by Christian philosophers and . . . there is the most knowledge in those countries where there is the most Christianity.101
[T]he only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible.102
Report Post »DIVINEPROVIDENCE1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:52pmThe great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effective means of limiting Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools.103
[C]hristianity is the only true and perfect religion; and… in proportion as mankind adopt its principles and obey its precepts, they will be wise and happy.104
The Bible contains more knowledge necessary to man in his present state than any other book in the world.105
The Bible, when not read in schools, is seldom read in any subsequent period of life… [T]he Bible… should be read in our schools in preference to all other books because it contains the greatest portion of that kind of knowledge which is calculated to produce private and public happiness.106
Report Post »rickc34
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:58pmThink about this.. all of those or most involved with banning prayer have died a physical death and for those that did not make it to Heaven have all eternity to think over their choices and war against God. In Hell there is No Peace only torment. Each time a person dies they step into eternity and their just reward.
Report Post »Diane TX
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:37pmKids in public schools should pray whenever they feel the need to, because it‘s unconstitutional to prohibit the practicing of one’s religion.
Report Post »DIVINEPROVIDENCE1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:49pmAnd that’s the point of the 1st amendment, freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
How do you feel about a muslim kid whipping out a prayer rug in school and praying to Allah? Repealing this unconstitutional law could open a can of worms…
Report Post »phillyatheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:56pmi never can understand why it’s so important to pray out loud. can’t the fundy Christian kids just pray silently? they can pray all day while ignoring what they are “learning” in school. pray for the Science teacher to burn in hell for his blasphemous Biology. pray for the principle to die an untimely death for his/her not standing up to the evil government. pray for the gay kids to be turned straight by God’s love. this seems like a no brainer (literally).
Report Post »AsatruPride1979
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:10pm“i never can understand why it’s so important to pray out loud. can’t the fundy Christian kids just pray silently?”
Report Post »Well, here’s what Christ thought about praying aloud:
“5”And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8″Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.”
momrules
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:35pmI was just a kid but I remember my parents and other older folks talking about how bad this would be. They were what is decribed now as bitter people, clinging to their God and their guns, but I know what they really were.
They were hard working, patriotic, Christian Americans who read the Bible and could read the writing on the wall. We have all seen first hand now how removing God from school and America is working out.
Report Post »theblazerunner
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:58pmremember the same thing.
Report Post »YourVoiceMatters
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:43pmThey were right and statistics kept by the government prove it unequivically! the results show there is no excellence in education any longer and no matter what program they put forth only shows minimal results! basically America is horrifically dumber especially compared to other countries! We have fallen far from first to what God only knows!
Report Post »FoxholeAtheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:56pmIt couldn’t be the non-stop defunding of public schools or Bush’s No Child Left Behind bright idea.
Report Post »toomuchgovt
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:27pmOne of the biggest mistakes our Court has ever made. I never had the benefit of prayer in school. They took that right away from me.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:54pmMistake? I think not. This court was the remains of Roosevelt’s stacked court under his sway, with some Johnnie come latelies in their ilk. This was basically the perfect storm for such a ruling.
Report Post »DoseofReality
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:38pmSo the school took away your right to bow your head and pray to your God? Wow, they must be powerful to be able to influence your thoughts like that….
Report Post »repairman469858
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:26pmAll you people who has fallen into the falsehood that the constitution says anything about separation of church and state have never read it ! It’s not in there and on the other hand schools should NOT!! be run by the government it should be state and locally run !!! NOW GO READ IT !!!!!
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:48pmFirst, Seperation of Church and State is a legal short hand for the First Amendment, the Religious Test Clause and the various cases around the issue.
Second, schools are run by the States, that doesn’t change the fact that the States and Local communities can not violate the First Amendment (Incorporation via the 14th Amendment). School endorsed and led pray violates the Establishment Clause, the freedom of Religion is an individual right and nobody is preventing the individual from praying.
Report Post »normalmom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:49pmYou are correct separation of church and state is not in the constitution. What is in the constitution is that they would not enforce any specific religion. Why it was added to the constitution is due to many of the people who came to the new world was due to religious rules. In England at that time you could be either the church of England or catholic if you were anything else you went to jail. However now due to certain groups the constitution has been twisted to fit their desires and this country is dying because of that.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:59pmENCINOM, you blithering idiot! Schools violate constantly on a daily basis the 1st Amendment, and will continue to do so as long as they can get away with their leftist agenda. They shut kids up then indoctrinate them with literal filth. You just hate religion and have that desire for the courts to continue to destroy it. Don’t preach 1st Amendment to the rest of us when you fail to see the forest for the trees yourself. If you don’t want to respect the rights of others, then expect the same back at you from us.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:08pmEncinom doesn’t know jack squat. He’s brainwashed by the leftists propaganda machine. Where in the fourteenth ammendment is public school prayer a violation? Nowhere. There’s not one phrase or sentence that implies such a thing. Even incorpration does not make public school prayers unconstitutional. The first ammendment speaks of an ESTABLISHMENT, not of religion in general. Establishments are churches, sects, denominations, ecclesiastical institutions, and other constituted organizations of religion. Moral values and religious principles are NOT Establishments.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:20pm@Colt
You foaming mouth idiot, I never said that School pray violates the 14th amendment. I said it violates the 1st Amendment, and the 1st Amendment is applied to the States via the 14th.
Second, how does the use of a Christian Pray not create the Establishment of a Religion. The State is selecting one religion’s God above all others to force the students to pray to.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:29pmENCINOM, You absolutely amaze me. You want your freedom of speech while promoting the censoring of other American’s freedom of speech merely because it regards religion. To you, what is religion other than simply speech, since you are a soulless non-believer? You certainly do express yourself to have a persistent irrational fear of such speech. I guess this makes you Religophobic. You so fear and hate religion that you are willing to take people’s 1st Amendment rights of free speech away when they are on of all things, government property? You sir, are lower than whale dung, and that is on the ocean’s floor.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:04pm@RJJinGadsden
Now its a Free Speech issue, what is the free speech issue, the right of a Teacher to recite a State sponsored pray? Again, a Public School is a State entity, has such it must be neutral regarding religion. No one is say individuals, acting as individuals cannot pray in a way that does not distrupt others. The issue is teachers, as agents of the State forcing a state sponsored pray on the class.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:17pmEncinom can run in circles all he wants, he’s still wrong. Public school prayer does not violate the first or fourteenth ammendments. I don’t care what modern, liberal, leftist, radical judges rule. History proves otherwise.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:46pmcolt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:17pm
Encinom can run in circles all he wants, he’s still wrong. Public school prayer does not violate the first or fourteenth ammendments. I don’t care what modern, liberal, leftist, radical judges rule. History proves otherwise.
_____________________
Funny thing Colt, the Supreme Court has said and continues to save YOU ARE WRONG! History as told by who Barton, a preacher pretending to be a historian.
Public Schools are agents of the States, the States are bound by the 1st Amendment via, the 14th Amendment. The 1st Amendment outlaws the Establishment of Religion by a State.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:58pmENCINOM, Read the 1st Amendment and absorb each and every word. Try doing this without adding words that are not there. Each of the three parts do actually refer to speech. Once can speak of religion freely, one can speak his/her thoughts freely, and the press can speak their thoughts freely. Yes, it is all about forms of speech. You call ‘pray’ (apparently you mean prayer) something other than speech? Explain please. Prayer is not a form of government establishment of speech. The religions in this country are already established in their own right. The removal of the ability of one to pray on government property is nothing more than government approved censorship. Again, I must say that you have an irrational fear of words that are put together as a prayer.
Report Post »I started school in the late ’50s and yes, we had prayer in school and even a short five minute sermon prior to our pledge of allegiance to our flag. That did occur here in the south back then, and even then nobody was forced to participate. Daily, there was the offer to those who might wish to be excused from the class room briefly. Don‘t know if anybody would have been harassed for this because I don’t recall anybody who took this up.
I can see how you just want it your way and only your way. Your many previous posts illustrate your down right hate of religion. That is something that you cannot deny, there are too many witnesses here who have also read those posts.
RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:10pmCorrection for above post:
Report Post »Prayer is not a form of government establishment of ‘speech’. Speech should be Religion.
encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:41pm“Prayer is not a form of government establishment of speech. The religions in this country are already established in their own right. The removal of the ability of one to pray on government property is nothing more than government approved censorship.”
Lets try this again. the issue is not an individuals right to pray. The issue is when a government agency, a school is a government agency, mandates pray in school it is endorsing religion. there is a difference between an individual student saying a silent pray and a teacher leading the class in a mandatory pray directed by government officials. This is not about free speech, but solely about the Establishment Clause.
Report Post »colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:47pmFunny thing Encinom, this modernist Supreme Court continues to be WRONG! They contradict everything our real history teaches. They are revisionists and are set on a radical agenda.
Schools SHOULD NOT be agents of the States. In such a case, there will always be a conflict of interest. The people created the states. Education is not the fourth branch of Government.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 4:34pmcolt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:47pm
Funny thing Encinom, this modernist Supreme Court continues to be WRONG! They contradict everything our real history teaches. They are revisionists and are set on a radical agenda.
Schools SHOULD NOT be agents of the States. In such a case, there will always be a conflict of interest. The people created the states. Education is not the fourth branch of Government.
Report Post »____________
But PUBLIC SCHOOLS are agents of the state, private schools are not and school pray there is determined by the school itself. So parents do have a choice, a free public education, that is religion neutral or a private school teaching their religion. No one is arguing that Education is a branch of the Government, it falls under the executive branch as one of the departments (maybe somebody needs a civics lesson about the Branches of Government). Public Schools, at least in the North, date back to the mid-1800′s with State oversite. So again, this is not a socialist take over as the paranoid right loves to trumpet, but a continuation of a long standing American tradition.
colt1860
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 5:39pmAmerican traditions ignored…
The Northwest Ordinance said that religion, morality and knowledge are necessary for good government, and should be encouraged, especially in schools. .Even Jefferson, as president, approved federal funds to construct Christian churches for Indians, as did Washington. Washington even said he would use Congress to ensure that the religion of Jesus Christ would be taught to Indian school children.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 6:21pm@Colt,
Past mistakes are not binding. It is no longer the 18th or 19th century. Typical of those that think they learned something from Barton, cherry picked statesments and actions from 200 years ago never tells a complete picture. The understanding of the Constitution and the law evolves over time, especially in a Common Law nation, where decisions over time influence future rulings, which changes understandings of the law.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:02pmENCINOM, Let me preface what I am about to say with the fact that I do understand the landmark Madalyn Murray O’Hair decision by the Supreme Court. To me it is much like the Supreme Court‘s 1800’s decision that black people were to be considered 3/5ths of a person. Both decisions in my humble opinion, are abominations against our Constitution. Currently we are stuck with the decision in which you revel. I still think that this decision will be overturned within hopefully my lifetime. By your ridiculous claims, after the Bill Of Rights was ratified, our founding fathers and their followers went about immediately violating the 1st Amendment. The various churches and forms of government went about hand in hand for well over a century and a half until somebody figured out a way to weasel in that decision. The words used in the amendment to keep our government from establishing something along the lines of the Church of England where every Englishman HAD to be a sworn member and could not be involved with another form of religion. Other European countries had other established religions in the same manner…by force. Ever since this court decision there have been runaway decisions to remove anything with any religious semblance from any city, county, state, and federal property. Many foaming at the mouth anti-religious bullies like you want to even remove all crosses, Stars of David, and other religious symbols from military cemeteries.
Report Post »Continued:
RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:08pmContinued:
Report Post »I am retired Army, and have access to be buried in such a cemetary when I die. But, unless this decision is reversed I plan to pay my way entirely and there will be a cross on my headstone where not even you can remove it. You certainly do give me the impression that you would just love to drive a bull dozer through those cemetaries just so you can get your soulless, Ungodly way.
As I pointed out to you earlier, if you want us to respect you, you will need to respect us. Anybody mentioning a religious topic within your earshot on government property is by no means ‘establishing a religion.’ Our speech should be just as protected as your desired speech.
encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 7:47pm“Many foaming at the mouth anti-religious bullies like you want to even remove all crosses, Stars of David, and other religious symbols from military cemeteries.”
Great Strawman argument. Nobody wants to remove crosses, stars of david, etc. from military cemeteries, where they act as grave markers for those of that faith.
Is it so hard the believe that the Founders who wrote the 3/5 clause into the Constitution were above making mistakes. Most of your the Barton points you spew as justification for violating the Establishment clause are debunked here. http://www.liarsforjesus.com/ I challenege you to read the truth and not fall for the lies of Barton.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:27pmENCINOM, You are either a liar or simply ignorant. Frankly, probably just ignorant of some of the goings on of many atheists. My mention of ignorance is not meant as a slight regarding you. None of us know all, now do we? I have visited a number of our National Cemetaries well before I retired in ‘97. A number of them even then had protesters outside the gates protesting exactly those religious symbols marking the graves of the military dead. It had gotten so bad that dignitaries and senior ranking officers from Germany and Italy visited some of these sites then to consider the possibility of moving the bodies of the WWI and WWII prisoners who had died in captivity. This was considered an act to retain the dignity of their fallen comrades in fear that America under the Clinton administration would allow that very removal. Before you try to call me a liar, during this time I was on an installation that had held German and Italian prisoners during WWII. I had the chance to meet some of those very dignitaries, and military personnel. A particular CPT with whom I worked sought out and photographed all of the POW graves and headstones at McClellan, and the National Cemetery in Chattanooga.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 8:36pmENCINOM, Oh yeah, I am currently reading that link right now, but am also doing some research of my own regarding the inside mentioned personnel. Already spotting some very familiar names.
Report Post »Another thing I had just thought of too. My mention of the foaming at the mouth anti-religious bullies basically comes from reading so many of your severely hateful posts that you have made in the past regarding Christianity. Just want you to know that I will treat you basically as you treat us. If you want to continue to be as hateful as you have been in the past…well, I don’t hate anybody, but I will not be very nice to you. So, have it your way.
DIVINEPROVIDENCE1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:24pmNoah Webster: REVOLUTIONARY SOLDIER; JUDGE; LEGISLATOR; EDUCATOR; “SCHOOLMASTER TO AMERICA”
[T]he religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles… This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government.
The moral principles and precepts found in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws.
All the… evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.
[O]ur citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion.
[T]he Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children under a free government ought to be instructed. No truth is more evident than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.
The Bible is the chief moral cause of all that is good and the best corrector of all that is evil in human society – the best book for regulating the temporal concerns of men.
[T]he Christian religion… is the basis, or rather the source, of all genuine freedom in government… I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of Christianity have not a contro
Report Post »DIVINEPROVIDENCE1776
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:42pmcontrolling influence.
Report Post »Diane TX
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:24pmI don’t know how the “State” neither establishing a religion, nor prohibiting the practicing of religion translates into a ban on religion.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:42pmWhat ban on religion? No one is preventing the individual from praying, only school endoresed group prays. Pray in PUBLIC SCHOOL by its very nature violates the Establishment Clause. How can you write a pray that would not discriminate between the various Christian sects, when they agree on the Lord’s Prayer, let alone including Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and other religions.
Report Post »SquidVetOhio
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:10pmYea, there’s no ban on religion. You can pray WHEN Uncle Sam says and HOW Uncle Sam says and God help you if you mention Jesus’s name in that prayer. Then you will pay with your taxes for the dogma of secular huminism be instilled in your child so they won’t believe that nonsense and become enlightened as all the other self-proclaimed sages of athiesm.
ENCINOM (peace be upon him) is the keeper of religious liberty and he will dictate to you when you may practice it. Athiests are smarter than us kooky religious folk, just ask them. They’ll tell you. But our athiest masters are merciful. They will allow to go to church on Sunday as long as we sit down and shut up about it. Voting is frowned upon too.
Report Post »encinom
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:22pmSquid, you paranoid fool, tell me where is this ban on religion. You fundies just hate the fact that you can no longer dictate and force your faith on others.
Report Post »RJJinGadsden
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:28pmENCINOM, You religophobic fool. You mean that you just hate the fact that you can no longer dictate and force your lack of faith on others?
Report Post »AsatruPride1979
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 4:07pmNot one person has answered encinom’s question on where religion has been banned, but instead replied with snarky remarks. This only mean he has a point that no one wants to acknolwedge.
Report Post »YourVoiceMatters
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:20pmPlease look at the graffs of school achievement tests
Report Post »that decline precipitously from the point of this decree
they in effect commanded God from our school system
and you forcefully eject God He will not fight it He left and
the result is apparent, apallingly so, the statistics bear this out!
the fall was great and continues even today in its disentigration of excellence in education!
(do not forget even dummy-ing down of the tests made no difference the spiral downward) continues on to the hell holes they have become!
There is no mistaking the decision had an immediate and detrimental effect
on education to this day!
CatB
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:08pmI remember it well .. we went from having a prayer before lunch … to be told we couldn’t .. and our principal DEFIED the order … he continued for at least another year .. don’t remember exactly how long .. but know he continued.
Report Post »RedDirtTexas
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:28pmCat…I attended my son‘s graduation from high school a few weeks ago and though it’s a small 1-A school in a small Texas town, (ceremony in our new gym of course) we started it with prayer, ended it with prayer, and one of the honor students led a prayer. Maybe a thousand in attendance and not one head not bowed or one complaint. If there had been hecklers, they wouldn’t want to stay in the neighborhood for long.
Report Post »DarthMims
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:47pmREDDIRTTEXAS, we have the same kind of graduation ceremonies here in Alabama, and the courts have consistently upheld that as long as it is a student that offers and leads a prayer, there is nothing the state can do about it. I’m not sure why other states (mostly up north) have such a problem with student lead prayer.
Report Post »FoxholeAtheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:01pm“If there had been hecklers, they wouldn’t want to stay in the neighborhood for long.” Tell me again how Xtianity is somehow different than Islam?
Report Post »RedDirtTexas
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:01pm@ DARTHMIMS…Ain’t it cool being Southern. Stay South and drive those Yankees crazy! BTW, you’re about to get drenched by Debbie. Keep your head down and your powder dry!
Report Post »FoxholeAtheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:09pmAin‘t it cool how in most of the states that don’t allow for homosexual marriage you can still marry your cousin? Ain’t it cool how southern states are the ones Jebus likes to punish most with things like hurricanes? Ain’t it cool how most states that oppose health care and dental care are the ones who are missing the most teeth?
Report Post »Johnny916
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:04pmThere should be no prayer in classrooms. Unless all form of prayers are allowed. Joking aside. It is unconstitutional to have prayer in school because of separation of church and state. If parents would like to have their children either home schooled or attend privet religious schools than that is their choice. However, they have no right to force a certain religion on children who do not understand what prayer is and in my opinion prayer doesn’t do nothing at all. So what’s the point?
Report Post »sweathog1948
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:21pmSorry but you are wrong about church and state. It is found in the constitution but not our constitution but in the Russian constiton. You will not find the words seperation of church and state in our constitution. The only thing about religion in our constitution is the government cannot establish a government religion for all.
Report Post »Read the founders of the constitution they not only belived in God but were christians.
Johnny916
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:32pmI would have to respectfully disagree. You’ll be surprised how many Founders were either skeptical of Christianity or not Christian at all.
Report Post »http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/opinion/perspectives/five-founders-who-were-skeptical-of-organized-christianity-and-couldnt-be-elected-today-218705/
kaydeebeau
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:51pm@ Johnny – you realize that the citation you provided is an opinion blog and not the words of the founders themselves. Since there are 1000s of actual letters and speeches in the founders own words to support their faith and religious convictions- you might want to actually do more research on your own rather than relying on the opinion of an obviously un-informed biased opinion piece
Report Post »FoxholeAtheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:17pmYou realize that just because some of the founding fathers were religious doesn’t mean our country is, right?
Report Post »Individualism
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:00pmseparation of church and state nobody should be force to have religion shoved in their face like Muslims countries with sharia law.
Report Post »SquidVetOhio
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:58pmWhat about the religion of Secular Huminism? I guess you don’t mind having that religion shoved in our face……. Hypocrite.
Report Post »FoxholeAtheist
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 2:05pmI wonder if every head is bowed without heckling from graduation ceremonies over there as well.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 3:00pmSQUIDVETOHIO — no religion in school is not the same as atheism in school. There is no place for it in the public school system. That is not hypocrisy.
However, it is anti-Liberty to demand everyone pray to your God.
Report Post »sweathog1948
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 12:00pmWhen I was in the school in the 60′s every morning in home room each student would take a turn in reading from the bible and then there would be someone who would pray. If a student did not want to read from the Bible they did not have to. That seldomely happened.
Report Post »Since the Bible and prayer were taking out of the schools, the rate of abortions has skyrocked. Those who have abortions sadly to say do not belive that there is human life gowing with in their body. That is sad.
davecorkery
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 1:57pmThat is a lie. Bibles and prayer have not been taken out of schools anywhere in the USA. Only OFFICIAL prayer was banned. Anyone can pray their a**es off all day long in school, as long as you don’t bother anybody. Every time some group wants to bring back a prayer in the morning, another group backs them, but wants THEIR prayer, not the other guy’s. Then everyone scurries back to their churches. Faith is no reason.
Report Post »thesuperskeptic
Posted on June 26, 2012 at 2:12pmCorrelation vs. causality
Report Post »Learn it.