Faith

Tony Blair & Christopher Hitchens Debate Religion in Public Life

TORONTO (AP) — Former British prime minister Tony Blair says his religious beliefs did not play a role in his decision to support the U.S. invasion of Iraq during a debate about the merits of religion in Toronto.

Blair spoke Friday night during a debate with writer Christopher Hitchens about whether religion is a force for good in the world.


Blair, a Catholic convert, said all his policy decisions, including supporting the Iraq war, were based on his genuine belief they were the right choices, not because of his religious ideologies.

Hitchens, an avowed atheist, Vanity Fair columnist and author of “God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything,” argued religion forces people to do unspeakable things under the guise of their faith.

He is fighting final-stage esophageal cancer and has refused to embrace religion despite his diagnosis.

Editor’s note: A full transcript of the debate can be found here.

Comments (149)

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  • RatioHead
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:12am

    RW, are you not aware that there were intellectuals and entertainers that visited Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Guevara then came back to the states touting the grand utopias they were designing? Why should we assume Hithcens has any more insight in to the Axis of Evil countries?

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    • RWWallpaper
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 12:03pm

      Ratiohead, I have no idea what you are getting at in your response to my post. I suggest you actually find out his feelings about these aforementioned countries because they are certainly not painting any “grand utopias” when referencing them…

      Report Post » RWWallpaper  
  • charliego
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:12am

    GOD did give to man the choice of free will; no other animal has this choice. Hitchens is an intellectual who made his own choice. Religion is a man made entity aspiring to belief in GOD. Religion, being man inspired has often fallen to the foibles of man. GOD is faith and belief–separate and distinct from man’s definition. Hitchen’s opinion is based on religious concepts and NOT GOD centered. That is, he has the free will to opine on it, but loses the debate in the substance. Man can be so arrogant and self rightous in defining their focus of belief systems. Faith requires no such arrogance–it just is.

    Report Post » charliego  
  • mcccmar
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:05am

    christopher hitches should be concerned about insulting someone he is scheduled to soon see

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  • TruthMakesYouFree
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:02am

    It Isn’t Tony Blair Christopher Hitchens Is About To Stand in Front Of,, And THERE, No Debating,, “What Have You Done With Christ Jesus Christopher”…. all that matters then,, either Jesus payment is accepted by us for our sin, or we can pay for them,,, the payment is FOREVER in hell,,, like the rich man in hell lifted up his eyes ,,,, well, he is STILL in hell lifting up his eyes, and will be forever…. where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,, no reasoning will settle it,, no explaining it will change it,, no debating will do away with the destiny of man,,,, only accepting the payment GOD made for our sin,, or WE pay,,,, it is appointed unto men once to die, after this the judgment,,,
    Romans 3:10- As it is written, there is none Righteous, No, not one.
    Romans 3:23- For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
    Romans 6:23- For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is Eternal Life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    (2nd death in this verse, the body dies, and hell for the unsaved.
    REV 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    REV 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Romans 5:8- But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were sinners, Christ died for us.
    Romans 10:9- That is thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Romans 10:10- For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
    Romans 10:13- For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    ComeToJesusNow

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    • MrButcher
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:18am

      anyone got a spare rubber room for this cat?

      wow.

      the term “American Talaban” comes to mind….

      Report Post » MrButcher  
  • RatioHead
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:58am

    Malachi, Malachi, Malachi. I can tell by your comments that your only influence in thought on this subject comes from Hitchens and his ilk. Through history the most horrific atrocities have been carried out by atheist, not people of faith. In the last century alone the human toll from atheism far out weighs all the deaths in the name of religion and through religious conflict throughout all history.

    This is a shell game; Blair believes in God, therefore, any conflict he’s involved in you put in the religious conflict category. Over 90% of Americans say they believe in God. So by your, and Hitchens, method you can claim almost anything is done, at least 90% of the time, in the name of religion. It’s lying with statistics 101.

    Second your fantastical notion of these civilized tribes, without a god, sitting around, sipping tea, discussing Chomsky is laughable at best. First off there are few occurrences of a people group who don’t have some sort of theology. Secondly, most tribes that aren’t yet reached by civilization are that way because they have eliminated any surrounding tribes and to “reach” them is quite dangerous to those who attempt to do so.

    Finally your allusion that a creature, surrounded by creation, who assumes there is no creator is somehow more reasonable than the creature who assumes something doesn’t come from nothing is pretty thoughtless.

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    • Nvrforget
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:15am

      “Over 90% of Americans say they believe in God. So by your, and Hitchens, method you can claim almost anything is done, at least 90% of the time, in the name of religion. It’s lying with statistics 101.”

      This is exactly what you’re doing in the first paragraph of your post, only with atheists. Consistency please.

      “Second your fantastical notion of these civilized tribes, without a god, sitting around, sipping tea, discussing Chomsky is laughable at best.”

      This is creating a strawman argument. Don’t do that.

      “Finally your allusion that a creature, surrounded by creation, who assumes there is no creator is somehow more reasonable than the creature who assumes something doesn’t come from nothing is pretty thoughtless.”

      There are pretty solid hypotheses about the origin of the universe and life, saying that those hypotheses are arguing that “everything comes from nothing” is a reductio ad absurdum argument. Don’t do that either.

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    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:19am

      Thoughtful post, you raise many good points that I have not considered.

      I would like to add to your argument about “atheistic” people groups. They do not exist! Atheism is a fairly recent religion stemming from the (ironic name) enlightenment. I have studied this and I cannot come up with a single people group outside of western European atheists that do not believe in some sort of creator or god(s). That there was a creator is blatantly obvious and the foolishness lies in trying to deny it. To the point where the theory of evolution is dead as far as it happening on this planet so now they have to turn to space to prolong this theory. If man, in all our wisdom, cannot replicate true life from non-life (and I do not mean Urey-Miller creating amino acids or Spiegelman’s monster which was created using a living Bacteriophage) in a lab with all the equipment we have, then please rationally explain how it happened unguided and continued to evolve into the life we have today. Yet y’all call belief in God foolishness… :-p

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    • Malachai
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 12:42pm

      “Through history the most horrific atrocities have been carried out by atheist, not people of faith.”

      First, this is a ridiculous argument to have in the first place as the true motivations behind the people behind these wars is often unknowable. However, to assume that most have been carried about by atheists because they are atheists is pretty ignorant just on face value, and should be pointed out. Your day-to-day Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or whatever isn‘t going to give a thumb’s up to mass genocide.

      NVRFORGET dissects the rest of your logical fallacies pretty well, no need to re-address them I don’t think.

      Report Post » Malachai  
  • RWWallpaper
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:43am

    Mr. Hitchens is one of the most brilliant people on the planet right now…and I say that not buying about half of what he says. I am certainly not an atheist but he makes some of the most compelling arguments against organized religion I have ever heard. I never mind any point of view as long as it is not supported by a simple and blind ideology. He makes his claims, and backs them up with sound reasons why he feels that way…THAT is exactly what we need more of in this country…

    …and if Mr. Hitchens is new to any of you, do yourself a favor and check into his videos on you tube about the “axis of evil” countries as he has been to all three and gives some staggering accounts of what he witnessed…as I said, just a brilliant man who makes no apologies for what he believes in and is more than happy to explain why…I can never find fault in that.

    Report Post » RWWallpaper  
  • benditlikebeck
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:40am

    Tony Blair, you’ve just been Hitchslapped.

    Report Post » benditlikebeck  
  • scr_north
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:28am

    I’ve always found Chris Hitchens to be a thoughtful, intelligent and skillful debater. I haven‘t always agreed with his opinions but I’ve almost always respected his arguments. The only problem I have with him is the same one I have with most atheists. For something they ostensibly don‘t care about and that really doesn’t tangiably effect them (at least here, in the west) they sure spend a lot of their time and effort trying to convince and convert others of/to their position. The really spiteful ones take the issue to the courts to attack our traditions and our beliefs. Interestingly enough Hitchens brother, who was himself an atheist discovered (re-discovered?) his religeon years ago and is now a strong proponent of faith. I gather they have had lively discussions and public debates and while their relationship is not defined as close they still talk.
    I was truly sorry to hear of his cancer and when he does pass on the world will miss him. What the heck, maybe that old silver tongue of his can debate it’s into heaven.

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    • Nvrforget
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:47am

      “For something they ostensibly don‘t care about and that really doesn’t tangiably effect them (at least here, in the west) they sure spend a lot of their time and effort trying to convince and convert others of/to their position.”

      Well, atheists aren’t really one monolithic group with the same goals and ideas. There are the rebellious teenagers who are doing it for attention. Kids will be kids. They’ll find their own way.

      Then there are the people who don‘t believe in a god or supernatural powers and generally don’t bother debating it or bringing it up, just living their lives and trying to be good people. I’d say those are the (silent) majority.

      Then there’s people like Hitchens who are more aggressive with their atheism. I don’t believe that Hitchens is trying to harm anyone with it, I sincerely believe he’s trying to help people get away from religion because he views it as negative, a point that could very well be argued. He DOES care. Not about some god, but about the people who believe in him. He wants to help them get away from what he sees as a delusion, wants to help them see the world with other eyes and think more critically. If you try to see this from his point of view, his ideas are quite benevolent. It’s just that he believes that religion is nothing to be respected since he sees it as a (dangerous) delusion and, to religious people, comes off as smug or rude because he’s attacking their golden goose.

      Well, and then there’s the jerks who just attack religion to feel superior to others or to get a rise out of them.

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    • GnomeChomsky
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 5:12pm

      To continue Nvr’s point, Hitchens is a self described anti-theist, meaning he isnt just a non-believer but he is opposed to the very idea of there being a God and it would be a terrible thing, “celestial dictatorship”, if there were. Then you have those like Bill Maher who calls himself an apatheist meaning in addition to not believing he doesn’t care if there is a God, it wouldn’t change how he lived his life. I’m anticipating some response to the effect of “if he doesn’t care why is he always …..” to which I would reply Maher rarely argues the existence or non existence of God but instead focuses on organized religion.

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  • OhYeah
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:23am

    Speaking of a Creator in America one cannot with show of proof, provide evidence that God influenced ones thoughts or ideas. To that one cannot prove or disprove that Satan influences ones thoughts or ideas. So if one is to be religious one has to look at its teachings to see if it is of good use or of evil use. Ones principles, whether gained by any unusual or acceptable means, has to be of judgment here. If a teaching of whatever one follows is of uplifting ideas and concepts, great things can be accomplished. If ones religion is of destruction hence the outcome. Another concept he brings to the table is that man should be of his own will without help or assistance from a higher being. That man is sick and has to made well, to that I say if one accepts that he needs no God then what is his outcome. Is is better or worse to have a God. Is man good enough or intelligent enough to go it alone and be of great exactness in all decisions? If that is yes, then why does man have weaknesses? If he be all he needs then why is man not perfect. All this leaves one with answers that are not complete or hopeful and I dare say of no use. To believe in a higher being is to be part of a plan a plan that is of great steps of achievement and gained knowledge by his Creator. There is hope and of never being alone. The steps to getting it close to perfect can only be achieved by having a belief in his GOD. Hence the constitution of the US. The pioneers crossing the plains to the west and Columbus. All great accomplishments in the USA has been given credit to God.

    Report Post » OhYeah  
  • Rodeo Rider
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:07am

    Religion is a sway back worn out old fat mare needin’ to be put out to pasture.

    Glenn Beck – Racist Or Tyrant?
    http://www.purlgurl.net/~puma/beck_rt.html

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    • mayihelpyou
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 2:00pm

      Hitchens puts forth the same wore out tired nonsensical arguments that atheists always use.I’m not defending religion. I’m not religious. But have a reasoned thought out argument if you’re going to debate. The only religion (actually a better description would be cult) in existence today which advocates the conversion or removal of non-believers is Islam. Hitchens argument concerning wars and atrocities is typical rhetorical hyperbole from the elitist atheist point of view. Wars and atrocities are always about taking resources from another group, religion is usually the rallying cry but not the reason. But if he wanted to use the argument he should have specifically mentioned Islam.

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    • GnomeChomsky
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 4:15pm

      If you actually payed any attention to literally anything Hitchen’s has said or written(on the topic of religion) over the last decade or more you would see that Islam far and away draws his ire and most inflammatory rhetoric over Christianity, Judaism, etc.

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    • GnomeChomsky
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 4:33pm

      @MayIHelpYou
      “The only religion (actually a better description would be cult) in existence today which advocates the conversion or removal of non-believers is Islam.”
      In terms of conversion, I’m curious what it is that Christian missionaries all around the world, those annoying people who knock on my door every Saturday morning, or those who stop me and hand me pamphlets at the store are trying to do?

      In regards to the weekend weligious welcome wagon who pesters me every saturday I was seriously considering getting some kind of sign or plaque made that said “Atheist” or something and slapping it on my door, though i fear that would only serve to encourage them more. There really ought to be something akin to the “Do Not Call” list, like a “Do Not Proselytize, Especially @ 8:30 Saturday Morning” list.

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  • Hugie 59 PA
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:05am

    TROLLTRAINER,
    Not so since Catholic Doctrine teaches that your conscience is your guide but you can not act with a doubtful conscience but must search out the truth. I agree that salvation is a gift that one can not earn by good works but good works do demonstrate faith. As Catholics, good works have nothing to do with salvation since we can not earn this gift. We are called to cooperate with grace which is reflected in our good works. Failure to do so can forfeit this gift. A person after sincerely seeking the Truth and who leads a virtuous life acts according to his conscience can through God’s mercy be granted eternal salvation. Many have never heard of Jesus who lead virtuous lives who live God’s Law which is planted in their hearts can be gifted with salvation according to Catholic teaching. Check it out!

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    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:23am

      That is not what my Bible tells me. It tells me that ALL have sinned and have come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23). It also says that he that believeth on the son hath everlasting life but he that believeth not the son shall not see life. (John 3:36). There is no other way except through Jesus Christ. There is no virtuous life outside of Christ. Ghandi is in hell because he did not believe.

      The fate of the unevangelized is a heavy burden on my heart, it is the single doctrine that I have the most problem understanding. How can a just God damn those who never even heard the gospel? But damn them He does, that is unmistakably clear from Scripture. God is also loving and just so there is something going on here we just do not understand. This single doctrine has driven me to a more Calvinist perspective than I would like to have, but it is how I reconcile this. Maybe God, in His omniscience knowing that those He placed in this position would have rejected Him anyway, allowed these people to live in places where they never heard the Good News. I do not know. But I do know that salvation only comes through faith in Christ. The Jewish patriarchs looked forward to Messiah and were saved. In this church age we can look back on Christ and accept Him and receive the indwelling of the Spirit and be saved. In the Kingdom of Christ that is to come the Jews will resume Daniels seventieth seven and will be able to come to Christ in another way. But in the end, if you want to have eternal life, you WILL come to Christ.

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    • GnomeChomsky
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 4:09pm

      @TT
      I bet Gandhi would feel empathy towards the plight of whoever this Ghandi fellow is :)

      Report Post »  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 4:48pm

      Heh, yeah, him too! ;-p

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  • Malachai
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:40am

    Haven‘t watched this in it’s entirety yet but I‘d imagine this can’t be anything but a slaughter. Christopher Hitchens is highly intelligent and a great debater. I‘m not slighting Tony Blair but I don’t think he can stand up to Hitchens.

    Report Post » Malachai  
    • Nvrforget
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:48am

      Awwww, look at the little Metroid with his little top hat :3

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    • Deutscher
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:48am

      He is an excellent debater, esp when defending his own premise.

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    • Malachai
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:11am

      He’s a very dapper, well-to-do Metroid. He has enough energy and has no need to take anyone else’s.

      Report Post » Malachai  
  • PARTY-TEA
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:32am

    Amazing,,, God does NOT force man to Believe,,, “WhoSoEver” will,,,,, but “WhoSoEver” won’t,,, won’t ,, but it does not change one thing but that persons destiny,,,, God has said it,,, that settles it,, wheather we believe or not,,, Jesus – God In The Flesh, Come Down To Earth, Died On The Cross For Mans Sin, Was Buried, Arose Three Days Later,,, Belief In HIM Brings Life Eternal,, He Who The Son Sets Free Is Free Indeed, I KNOW,,, I Believe,,, And Am Free From The Guilt And Penalty Of Sin,,,1JN 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    1JN 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    1JN 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

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  • mikenleeds
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:28am

    blair is dead on plus without religion they are no morals and there for the decay of civilization as we see today …

    Report Post » mikenleeds  
    • Malachai
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:37am

      This is completely false. There have been morals and values FAR before there were religion.

      You don’t need religion for a good man to do good things. However, you do need religion for a good man do do evil things. Yes, I butchered that quote.

      Report Post » Malachai  
  • GulfPeg
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:28am

    Some people need religion to be a good person. They have to follow somebody’s recipe. Most athiests are good people because they want to be that way and know right from wrong. Athiests are not hypocrits and pretend to be something they are not.

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    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:58am

      Your argument is not only inconsistent, it is downright silly! WHY would you want to be a good person? Of what benefit is it to you? Why not go through life raping, plundering, and pillaging? Who do YOU have to answer to? Is it fear of man’s law that keeps you straight? What is “good” or “bad”? These terms are irrelevant, without a standard they are meaningless. Why was Hitler wrong? He was only acting on the theory of survival of the fittest, the Jews were inferior and were only sucking resources, he did a good thing by exterminating them, right?

      I am not going to give you the gospel. I will not preach to you here. I will only pray right now that you read my post and think about what I said. I pray that you start questioning your position. You do not understand Christianity, you think that we need to follow the 10 commandments to get to our “heaven.“ There is no ”recipe!” Just repent and believe and you are saved! You then live a Christian life because you WANT to become sanctified. It seems backwards to an unsaved person, but a Christian can rape, plunder, pillage, and even murder and still get to heaven!!! But if you are a Christian you will not do these things. Our salvation only depends on faith in Christ, He is the “get out of jail free” card. We are ALL still guilty, some of us just choose to walk through the door that allows us eternal life. The door is open to anyone. Thing is, you need to choose that route now, before you physically die from this world.

      You WILL believe in Jesus Christ one day. As will Dawkins and Hitchens. You WILL bow before Him and you will know in that moment that you have been deceived while on this earth.

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    • Deutscher
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:11am

      @trolltrainer.
      You clearly have strong beliefs. I won’t presume to debate you here ( my thumbs are already tired), but I have met few Christians as outspoken who truly know thier own religion. Most can’t even correctly name the 10 commandments.
      My question to you would be,” why do you say that everyone WILL kneel before your god?”
      Why the emphasis on ‘will’? It is my experience that raising ones voice is a sure sign of a weak argument.

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    • GulfPeg
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:23am

      TrollTrainer: Boy, have you brain washed yourself. Your head is up your you know what!

      Report Post »  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:48am

      Deutscher,

      Thank you for your kind words! I will answer your question by drawing on a quote you made in another reply to me:

      “The problem with religious constructs , in my opinion, is when one group thinks they have the one true answer.”

      The thing is, there is one truth. Christians have it. I understand how this makes us look close-minded, stubborn, blind…I am sorry it is that way…But what can we do? We have the truth and everyone else is wrong, it is as simple as that. This might surprise you, but I can prove God!!! The problem is you will most likely not accept that proof. But we can start with the empty tomb argument. You can Google this for the full rundown, and you can argue against it, but the arguments are not rational. The gist of it is Jesus of Nazareth was a real, live person. This is not even debated in serious circles. He was crucified by Roman soldiers for treason because the Jews claimed He was claiming Himself as king. The Jews wanted to kill him because He claimed to be messiah. In fact, Jesus went beyond that and claimed to be God several times, which is the true definition of “blasphemy.” We know this is true because of the accounts in the New Testament, which you may not believe, so I am making a note of that. But we do know for irrefutable fact that this Jesus claimed to be messiah. So far everything I have stated is irrefutable, historic fact that is backed up by extra-biblical sources. So this Jesus was crucified on a cross and placed in a tomb. Three days later the body was gone. Again, this is all fact. Now for the problem; where did the body go? I will leave you to research this problem, if you seriously do this it will most probably lead you to Christ! But suffice to say here that the only plausible, “rational” explanation is that the disciples stole the body. Despite the Roman guard. Thing is…These disciples all (except John who was cast on the island of Patmos for a long while) met horrific deaths after leading hard lives in which they gave everything they had for the belief that Christ was the messiah and had been resurrected after three days. Now, people die for a lie all the time, the dudes who flew the planes into the trade center died for a lie. But you do not die for what you KNOW is a lie! Maybe one or two nuts do, but 11 disciples? Not to mention the generations of persecuted Christians up to this very day!

      Because Jesus was resurrected then that lends credence to everything He said. He claimed to be God. He also validated Scripture. So by extension I know the Bible is true and accurate.

      But really, that is all beside the point! I know my faith is the correct one because when I accepted Christ the Holy Spirit indwelled my heart. I know this sounds silly, but ask ANY Christian in here! We all have the same story, no matter our differences in theology, denomination, nation, or age. We have all undergone this experience of being born again. This is how we know we are right. We are in Christ.

      So, this brings us to your question, how do I know that everyone will kneel before Christ. Read Revelation chapter 20. You see, we know how it will end. Maybe not every detail, and we argue voraciously over interpretation, but read Revelation 20. Your answer is there.

      God bless

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    • Deutscher
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:47am

      @TT

      I dont wish to debate with you. I’m in a iPhone and I will never change your opinion.

      But the idea that you think you have the one truth is SCARY. That is what I fear.
      I can tell by your idea of proof, that you don’t understand the concept of a proof. Stating facts then extrapolating a conclusion is not a proof. As for the power of a leader to influence others I will refer you to history.
      But to the issue of biblical truth, I ask you, how many languages do you speak? Have you ever tried to translate even between 2 contemporary languages? It produces a result that can not be 100% accurate and over time becomes more unclear. For example I think no less than 3 totally different Hebrew words were translated as “Hell”. So what then is the truth? The ONE truth to which you refer?
      I don’t begrudge you whatever you choose to believe. But don’t assume there is one truth that you have that is universal for everyone. Aren’t Christians supposed to be humble?

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    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 12:26pm

      Deutscher,

      You are correct that you will never change my opinion. I have the truth! :-)

      Why is it scary to you that I have the truth? How many “truths” do you think there are? I used to think in shades of gray too, I used to think that what is true for one person is not necessarily true for another. But this is faulty thinking. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong even if you feel you have a right reason for doing wrong. There is only 1 God. Those who worship that God are right, everyone else is wrong.

      What do you consider to be proof? In my book it is irrefutable fact. You can always argue that you do not have an answer to refute that fact but that you still will not believe it. Like red blood cells in a T-Rex thighbone and other soft tissue finds that should not exist in something that is supposed to be millions of years old. There is no logical answer to this other than these artifacts are not as old as we want to believe. This is proof but you can refuse to accept it. You come up with a logical answer and it is no longer proof, but until you do it is irrefutable. The empty tomb is irrefutable proof. You can argue it, but no argument is rational.

      You talk about the power of a leader to influence others. What leader? Do you mean Jesus Christ? That is all well and fine when He was alive, but how does He influence others in death? You are being illogical here, think about it. You just watch your messiah die on a cross, the dream is over. You just want to go back to Galilee and go fishing again. Why did Christianity not die here? What kind of god dies on a cross, beaten and bloody? The answer is because He rose and multiple people saw the risen Christ. 500 at once one time. Mass hallucination? For real? Saul of Tarsus saw his Savior on the road to Damascus. Read his story, he was the Christian’s #1 enemy. Then overnight he became that which he hated and went on to not only bring the gospel to the Gentiles but also write the first systematic theology which is the foundation for the whole faith! I think there is a bit more going on here than Jesus’ charisma!

      The issue of translation is a red herring. There are multiple levels of theology. I was taught by the great Dr. Habbermas to think of it like a target with a bulls eye. Everyone always wants to argue about all the different Christian denominations and all their varying beliefs and different interpretations of Scripture…Pre-mil, post-mil, pre-trib, Calvinism, Arminianism, charasmatics, dunking or sprinkling…the list is endless. Who is right? It does not matter!!! There is very little information a person needs to find Christ. John 3:16 is really about it, the gospel in a nutshell. Throw in Romans 3:36, Acts 16:31, Romans 6:23, and a few others and you have what Dr. Habbermas calls “bulls eye theology.” This is what every single Christian believes; 8 to 80, blind, crippled, crazy…If you are a born again Christian there is no alternate interpretations for these verses. This is the gospel, this is what led you to Christ.

      But your argument does not stand anyway because we have more early manuscripts of the Bible than any other ancient work of literature. We do have the original languages and we study those. There is no theological point which is in contention as far as transmission. Interpretation is another matter, but that is what makes it fun and interesting! Salvation does not hinge on your millennial view or even if you are a young earth creationist or a theistic evolutionist. It does not matter. The Holy Spirit will guide you where He wants you to go, you just need to be sensitive to His prodding; after all, He is a guide, not an enforcer.

      I think you are misinterpreting the definition of humility, as most people misinterpret meekness. Humble does not mean that I am not right! Meek does not mean that I am weak. I am humble because I am taking the time to lovingly try and show you the truth without getting arrogant or nasty. I accept your right to not believe, God Himself gives you that right! I do not have anything to prove here, if anything the more I write the more I damage my reputation to those whom I would like to take me seriously on my political views. But I can not apologize for who I am and who Christ allows me to be. My job is to be a witness for Him, nothing else matters. Obama is nothing; socialism, entitlements, debt, war…It does not matter. spreading the gospel and showing others the way to Christ are all that matters. I am humble enough to serve my Lord in this way. I am not going to tickle your ear and tell you that you are right and also have truth too because you do not. You are lost and your only salvation is in Christ. I do not expect to change your mind right here, today. But I am throwing out some serious seed and I pray that something takes. That is our job as Christians. It is dirty work, we get laughed at, scoffed, cussed out, and dismissed. But that does not matter. Because we hold the truth.

      Report Post »  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 1:06pm

      Deutscher,

      I just had another quick thought then I am off for some work…

      Would you follow someone who “thinks” they know the way or are you going to listen to someone who “knows” they know the way? What other “religion” tells you that they are the only way? That they are the only truth? Just the big three, the three that are founded on Jehovah God of the Old Testament. Of those, the Jews do not even evangelize because they are the chosen people and they know they are correct. And they are…except they failed to recognize their messiah when He showed up. He is the end of their Law. Islam is a false religion, but I believe, and this is a personal belief, that God allowed them to exist because they will have a future part to play in the end times. There is ample evidence of this in the OT, after all, look at where they came from. But anyway, why is Islam so successful even though their Quran is so full of holes you could drain spaghetti? Because they know they are right and that theirs is the only way. They are passionately devout in following their religion and non-Muslims see this and are interested because surely they must know something as they are so serious about their faith. Christians…What can I say? We are losing. Why? Because the kind of mentality you hold has crept into the church. It is not “acceptable” in our society to say we are right and you are wrong. We must also recognize the validity of your beliefs even though we know they are incorrect. It is not PC to say our way is the only way, or that today’s society is filled with sin that has become acceptable. Who wants to follow that? Christians are so wishy-washy they do not even know what they believe anymore.

      It is not like that everywhere. Did you know that one of the most successful mission fields today is in Islamic countries? They are coming to Christ in droves, because they see their brothers risking their very lives for their new found faith. China is another hot spot. For the very same reasons. They risk their lives to worship in underground house-churches. If caught they are imprisoned tortured, and even killed. Yet they win new converts in staggering numbers. Because they hold the truth and it is evident by their lives. America? Pfft…Most American Christians are nothing but Sunday morning pew warmers. They have no idea what they believe. Is it any wonder the churches are dying here and in Europe? Who wants to follow anyone who will not even insist that they are right?

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    • advent2
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 2:18pm

      Trolltrainer- Nicely put Brother and fellow worker. Keep the faith and finish the race. Our Lord was meek and humble but He also instructed the 12 He sent out to shake the dust off their feet and and pronounce the same judgement received by Sodom and Gomorah of any town not receptive to their truth. He also said don’t cast your pearls before swine. This will rankle the unbeliever but Jesus was playing for keeps.He was definitely not PC or a post modern relativist. He is Truth and gives us the Spirit of truth. HIs sheep know his voice and all that the Father gives him will not be lost. Notice in John 17:9 in HIs prayer for the disciples the night before His crucifixion- ” I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours”. Another verse comes to mind “ many are called but few are chosen”. We thank the Lord we hear His voice and pray for those who as yet have not opened their ears or eyes. Outside the gates of the city will be the dogs and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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    • Deutscher
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 3:54pm

      Oh my. You do have an opinion and as I have said multiple times I don’t care or imagIne I could change it. So please , enjoy.
      BUT to say that an empty tomb is proof of anything other than there is an empty tomb is incorrect. You can not assume that there is only one explanation ( if it was empty). There is no way to prove a negative so I can’t ( and don’t ) say it never happened. But I will not say that if it happened there is one and only one possibility. This can not be the basis for a proof.
      THERE IS NO PROOF. Religion is based on faith not proof.
      You have laid out ( in some detail) some reasons for your FAITH, but not proof

      As with all these discussions i have with Christians go, it is about faith. Most admit this readily. I can tell you ( sorry but my thumbs r too tired to go on) I have spent a great deal of time On this and for all your reasons for your faith, I see reasons why it’s flawed.

      My whole thrust was to point out that you do not possess some universal truth that applies to everyone. It applies to YOU. And that is fine. It obviously provides you great comfort but don‘t think that because I don’t require that construct, that I am lesser or flawed, as you would be sadly mistaken.

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    • GnomeChomsky
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 3:58pm

      @TT
      The fact that you are using the Bible as hisorical proof completely nullifies your argument, you can hardly say that it is an objective source. You say it is fact that the tomb was empty 3 days later, the bible being your source i presume. Let’s assume thats accurate, the only thing it proves is that the body wasnt there, it certainly does not prove a magical resurrection especially when even the Bible contradicts itself on who witnessed this miracle. You make the claim of extra-biblical sources, what are they? Josephus?Pliny?Tacitus? All of those are disputable sources and none are contemporary. There was a lot going on in your posts, for brevitys sake I’ll limit myself to just these observations.

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    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 4:31pm

      Guys, guys…

      I have wrote enough on this. You simply refuse to believe. I have used accepted historic fact that goes beyond the Bible. The Jews never disputed the Christian’s claims, neither did the Romans. The fact is both groups would have loved to squelch this movement before it ever got started. They could not. The tomb was empty, no one disputes that. Where did the body go? That is YOUR problem to answer, I know where it went!

      As far as the Bible, I can use it as an historically accurate source as there has never been anything in it that can be proven false! It certainly does not contradict itself, though faulty understanding of what it says makes this claim possible. It is easy to cast doubt on anything, but as long as rational explanations exist for what you consider contradictions you have proven nothing. In any case though, I was not using the Bible. I think I noted the one place where I did. You are free to ignore that fact.

      Faith…Yeah, I have argued this quite a bit lately. Of course our faith is based on…faith…But what, exactly, is “faith?” I propose that faith has to be based on fact. I do not believe in Santa Clause. I do not believe in the tooth fairy. Of course these are make believe fantasy characters. But I have many facts that say God is real and Christianity is true. I know because I have seen. I have lived it. As have many, many others. I am only trying to show you what is there, it is you who remain blind, who refuse to see. I cannot open your eyes, I do not have that power. I can only tell you what is there. I have done my part. So I guess you win and I lose. You have won the argument. As has Hitchens. :-)

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    • komponist-ZAH
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 4:58pm

      @Gnome–
      I suggest you learn up on Biblical archeology; the Bible has been proved accurate on many matters. AND Josephus is not very far from contemporary, in fact he very well could have had contact with eyewitnesses of Jesus, though that is not known for sure.

      @TrollTrainer–
      Very good posts. The first two laws of logic state that (1) for all propositions p, it is impossible for both p and not p to be true; (2) either p or not p must be true, there being no third or middle true proposition between them.
      So, to put it in terms related to your argument, God cannot both be and not be, and He must either be or not be. There is only one Truth.

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    • GnomeChomsky
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 5:39pm

      @Komponist

      Josephus is dubious because his work only survives through the copying of later Christian historians >300AD ie Eusebius who is not without his detractors. So I shouldnt say Jospehus himself is dubious but the sources relaying his work are. It is widely accepted that its partially accurate with additions from later copyists, but even if it were entirely accurate that only goes to prove that there was a guy named Jesus who gave sermons and was called the messiah(christ) by some, which I’m happy to concede. It does not at all prove any sort of supernatural or miraculous happenings whose sole source is the Bible(in relation to Jesus) and for the most part are all stories that pre-date Jesus by hundreds and thousands of years and were commonly attributed to ancient religious figures ie Virgin Birth, resurrection, walk on water, water into wine etc etc

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    • WhiteFang
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 8:57pm

      trolltrainer: You gave it your all, you tried and I respect you for that. Faith is a gift that we are given by the one true God, and you even mentioned His Divine Name, Jehovah. Our Lord Jesus, God’s son, gave us the assurance of the value of his sacrifice for us. Hebrews 11:1-40 discusses faith and the reasons we can have it.

      The other day I saw a interesting little “words of wisdom”, it said, “a man who loses money, loses a lot, a man who loses a friend loses more, a man who loses his faith loses everything.”

      Report Post » WhiteFang  
  • trolltrainer
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:27am

    Everyone has religion…even Hitchens. It always amuses me that the hardest atheists will spend their entire life fighting something they claim does not exist! Does it bother you if your neighbor believes in Bigfoot? The Loch Ness monster? Space aliens, Buddhism, ESP, or Santa Clause? Do you set out on a life-long crusade to destroy these beliefs? No! You laugh, shrug, and walk away. Only God! That right there should tell the atheist something.

    It seems the in vogue atheist argument is how religion is evil and has caused all the world’s woes. This is the stupidest argument of them all and is easily refuted. It only serves to show the blindness of the person arguing it. I would love to lock 10 atheists in a room for a month and see what happens! Compare that to 33 Christian miners trapped for 2 months. It was their faith that gave them the strength and charity towards each other that they needed to survive. I am not saying that they would not have survived if they were atheists, but I am saying that their faith gave them much that the atheist lacks. Without God you have no moral standards. The atheist can argue that point, but it is a dead end. If you have no one to answer to then it does not matter what you do to others. That is the bottom line. Take religion out of the world and see where it leaves you! We see that happening all around us today, the world is going down the drain. See, Christians have read the book and we know how it ends. The atheist will eventually win the battle here on this earth. In that day the war will be won for the Christian.

    God bless.

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    • Nvrforget
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:42am

      “Without God you have no moral standards. The atheist can argue that point, but it is a dead end. If you have no one to answer to then it does not matter what you do to others.”

      I don’t describe myself as an atheist or with any other silly label like that, but to address your point: I have myself to answer to. And that should be the basis of all morals. Would a Christian who loses his faith start raping, murdering and stealing all of a sudden? I sure hope not. What a weak person that would be.

      Or to phrase it differently: What kind of person would say about themselves that the only reason they do not try to strike me where I stand is that they‘re afraid of God’s wrath? Your argument is a terrible insult to every religious person and you should give it some more thought because it doesn’t shine a good light on you.

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    • Deutscher
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:45am

      First. I’m agnostic not atheist. But you realize your argument is that having faith in something you can’t prove is all that binds society and gives morals. You interestingly did not say Christianity.
      To that point I would say religion has been used for this purpose but it is not the only motivation for cohesion and lawfulness. Humans have a perception of out-of-body experiences caused by a section of the brain being stimulated. In an effort to give this context and to deal with our mortality, religion evolved. The problem with religious constructs , in my opinion, is when one group thinks they have the one true answer.

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    • Malachai
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:57am

      “Without God you have no moral standards. ”

      That’s absolutely ridiculous. There have been many moral blights brought on in the name of religion. Heck, your own bible condoned many of them in the Old Testament (slavery, etc.) Christians LOVE to simply ignore that old chestnut…

      Conversely, there have been and currently are many cultures that did not have religion and have been morally upstanding that had no God(s.) Even today, you have small tribes scattered throughout the Earth untouched by modern society. They don’t need some God or man waving a bible in his face to tell him that killing, stealing, raping, or hurting another is wrong.

      Imagine world without religion? Without men feeling like flying a plane into a building will get them into Nirvana with 1,000 virgins? Without men who believe in a God that will smile upon them for beating up another person because they loved someone of the same sex? Gee, how awful that would be.

      Report Post » Malachai  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:08am

      I think you are all misinterpreting what I am arguing! I am not saying that an atheist cannot be a good person…or that a Christian cannot be a bad person. In fact, I know many Christians that are worse people that most atheists I know. That is not what i am saying at all.

      What I am saying is that it is God that gives us our moral standards. If not God then who? You say you have yourself to answer to, but on what do you base your morals? How do you “know” what is right or wrong? Is abortion right? Or is it murder? How about pornography, incest, rape? Why are these things not “right?”

      Report Post »  
    • Nvrforget
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:32am

      Quote: “I think you are all misinterpreting what I am arguing! I am not saying that an atheist cannot be a good person…or that a Christian cannot be a bad person. In fact, I know many Christians that are worse people that most atheists I know. That is not what i am saying at all.”

      Thank you for clarification and I’m sorry for misunderstanding you. It just sounded like you were saying that only religious people can be good. Point taken.

      Quote: “What I am saying is that it is God that gives us our moral standards. If not God then who? You say you have yourself to answer to, but on what do you base your morals? How do you “know” what is right or wrong? Is abortion right? Or is it murder? How about pornography, incest, rape? Why are these things not “right?””

      Moral standards play a very clear part in nature without the need to draw supernatural powers into it. Most of them are based on empathy. A normal human being is wired to feel suffering if someone else suffers. I take no pleasure in someone else’s suffering. But I feel pleasure when they are pleased. Studies on toddlers show that humans are born altruistic because it’s such a big advantage in nature to work as a group and to effectively work as a group you need to have strong bonds to this group. Altruism and empathy are two of the major factors separating us from apes who, generally, act selfish.

      Morals in my opinion partly stem from empathy and partly from a code of honor. Do not hurt someone else, because they will suffer. I do not want them to suffer. Do not steal from them because they, too, may need what I would take from them. I do not want them to starve. Help them if they need help because this way, not only will they help me but my group will be stronger for it. I could draw this argument out to all kinds of lengths, but I believe you see my point.

      About pornography, incest and rape:

      I personally don’t see anything wrong with producing or consuming pornography >>as long as no one is being exploited or harmed<<. If someone needs to watch pornos to get that tingly feeling, fine, more power to them. It doesn't hurt anyone.

      Humans (and most other creatures) have a natural predisposition against incest because it weakens the gene pool. It's instinctual and this instinct exists for good reasons. Incest DOES happen, of course, but not among normally developed people.

      Rape is wrong because someone gets hurt mentally and physically. Naturalistic reason: People who maim other people weaken the group, cannot play in a team and should therefore be ousted from it.

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    • Malachai
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:27am

      You are right, I’m not quite sure where you are arguing from. I guess you are saying that, if I feel that murdering, rape, etc, are wrong, where do those feelings come from? The inference there being that they must come from God? Is that correct?

      If that is your position, then I disagree that it’s the only or most likely option. Evolutionarily, it makes sense that we wouldn’t just murder each other at random. If you look at many other social pack type animals (wolves, for example,) they don’t randomly attack one another. In fact, this behavior would almost certainly result in removal of that member from the pack.

      I can’t really go into details on some of the other stuff (@ work) but many of those aspects (rape, harassment, etc) are generally “morally” frowned about as they are detrimental to society’s advancement as a whole.

      Report Post » Malachai  
  • pilgrim2497
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:26am

    Atheism is not a decision of the intellect, but of a darkened heart. According to Psalms, the fool didn’t say in his mind “There is no God”; he said it in his heart.

    Report Post »  
    • Cuthalu
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 2:06pm

      And because of Free Will, he or anyone else is allowed to make that choice for themselves.

      Report Post »  
  • hempstead1944
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:23am

    Hope it isn‘t a long debate for Hitchen’s sake…..

    Report Post »  
  • Hugie 59 PA
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:12am

    Christopher Hitchens, if in conscience believes what he proposes, then in Catholic Christian teaching given he led a virtuous life, will be given the gift of salvation.

    Report Post »  
    • trolltrainer
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:34am

      I was raised a Catholic and while Catholics believe in certain aspects of salvation by works, they also know that it is by faith in Jesus Christ that we are ultimately saved. I am not going to argue the tenants of Catholicism and whether Catholics should be considered as saved, born again Christians, but I will argue that mainstream Catholicism recognizes that you need to have faith in Jesus Christ to receive eternal life.

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  • www.PoliticalTs.com
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:11am

    I feel sorry for him. Religion and everything else is what we make it. If you are evil, everything you do will be evil. Religion does not make you evil, and neither does atheism. If Hitler had been catholic, that would not have made catholoscism evil.

    http://www.PoliticalTs.com

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    • MrButcher
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 8:40pm

      er, um, but Hitler was a Catholic. hate to break it to ya.

      The people who served in the reich were mostly Luthern and Catholic also.

      Hitler was no atheist in public. he used the church and often evoked god in his speeches.
      The Verhmact and “god is with us” enscribed on their belts, too.

      Citing nazi germany as a case of atheism run amok is grossly wrong.—-I’ll give you stalin to an extent but communism IS a form of religion and is worshipful state (plus stalin did study to be a priest).

      so…

      Report Post » MrButcher  
  • angelcat
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:10am

    Hitchens will find out upon his demise that he was terrible wrong in his atheism, but it will be too late. I don’t judge the man, but God will do so. Hitchens will have to depend on His mercy.

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    • Highland
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:38am

      Religion shouldn’t be the issue. Hitchens has debated many Christians, e.g., D’Souza, Turek, et al., on the existence of God. Religion is not the point.
      Religion isn’t a “force for good.” God IS good.

      Report Post » Highland  
    • advent2
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 1:26pm

      Highland- you are correct. Religion is power and man is corrupted by power. “There is but One who is good”

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    • mrclean
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 5:34pm

      Might I add, Christianity is not so much a religion as it is a way of life. Likewise, the Bible is not a book of do‘s and don’ts…

      Report Post » mrclean  
  • Conserving Ink
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:08am

    By their fruits you shall know them.

    I don’t think about my religion when I do something good, but it is why I do good.

    “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness – these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

    George Washington’s Farewell Address
    _______________________________________________________
    New Post http://conserving-ink.blogspot.com

    Report Post » Conserving Ink  
    • GnomeChomsky
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 2:45pm

      “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.” -Thomas Jefferson

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  • socialists!-can-you-hear-us-now
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:08am

    We pray Christopher is converted to Christ,,,, his not believing the Truth does NOT change it,,
    JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    JN 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    JN 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    JN 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    So hard for man to just BeLiEvE,,,, we want to work for what we get,,, but “the Gift Of God Is Eternal Life, through Jesus Christ Our Lord”…. we look at out paychecks and say,,, “I EARNED THAT”,,,, but ,,,,,,,,,well,,,,, the end is sad for the Unbelievers …… forever sad,

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    • tower7femacamp
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:17am

      Blasphemy – It is a blasphemous power according to verses 1, 5 and 6. In verse 1 it would represent the blasphemous titles that the head of the system takes to himself; Vicar of God, all names that are attributed to Christ he takes upon himself, God on earth etc.

      As we see in verse 5 he also speaks blasphemies. The Bible defines blasphemy as; when being only a man you make yourself as God. (John 10:30-33) Also claiming to be able to forgive sins when only a man. (Mark 2:5-7) The Papacy also enters into and practices these things.

      For verse 6 one may ask, ‘how can the papacy blaspheme against the tabernacle of God, which is heaven, (Hebrews 8:1-2) and the angels?’ The papacy has done so be setting up an earthly counterfeit tabernacle with counterfeited sacrifices by a counterfeit priesthood to a counterfeit god. Plus they claim that the priests are greater than the angels and that the Pope can excommunicate angels. Ligouri ‘Dignity and duties of the Priest’, pg. 31. Lucii Ferraris ‘Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica Juridica Moralis Theologica’, Vol. VI pg. 48.

      see the New World one govt Order
      http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=the+new+world+order

      Report Post » tower7femacamp  
  • CALIDUDE
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:04am

    I am praying for Mr. Hitchens, he has always struck me as rather sad and angry. I am sorry at so late a stage of his disease he has no solace.

    Report Post » CALIDUDE  
    • Dstarr55
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:55am

      I agree with your last statement about having no solace at the late stage of his disease. I always found Mr. Hitchens to be an extremely intelligent man and I often enjoyed his analysis on political issues (not that I often would agree with him but intelligent debate is worth hearing even when you disagree with the conclusions). I did, however, fail to see why he was so seemingly obsessed against religion. Over all I did like the guy and wish him no ill-will. He will be in my prayers even if he believes I speak to the air. I hope before the end he will know God.

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    • Malachai
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:40am

      You don’t need God to have solace.

      Report Post » Malachai  
  • shane2813
    Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:00am

    Hitchens is a Leftist Loon. Go away and die you EVIL thing you.

    Report Post »  
    • Nvrforget
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:06am

      Classy.

      Report Post »  
    • Malachai
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:35am

      In the world of the Loons, the intellectual, well-spoken, reason based individual is labeled as the crazy person.

      Report Post » Malachai  
    • snowleopard3200 {mix art}
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:45am

      Why not just let each of them simply hold to their own beliefs, right or wrong, and as long as no threats are made against each other just agree to disagree and let it go at that.

      http://www.artinphoenix.com/gallery/grimm

      Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}  
    • Malachai
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 10:07am

      @ snowleopard3200 {mix art} : Because having a civilized, intellectual debate such as this can help both sides learn more about both sides of an issue and maybe come closer to common ground.

      Unfortunately, here in America, we don’t have that. Thanks to garbage like Fox News, MSN, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Olberman, etc., we don’t have that. We have 2 sides spewing biased, misquoted, partisan nonsense at each other as opposed to honest, open debate which has created an ugly split. You’ve got Republicans who honestly believe the Democrats are actually trying to destroy the country and Democrats who honestly believe that Republicans are actually trying to destroy the country which is all just nonsense.

      Anyway, rant off. Back to work.

      Report Post » Malachai  
    • LDSPATRIOTFAM
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 11:57am

      @ MALACHAI

      The pitfall for most intellectuals… Elitism.

      “Modern man is a self-certified genius who, having pinned the blue ribbon on his own lapel, proceeds to hand out all other awards, according as the various candidates are more or less like him.” -Hugh W Nibley

      Yes we can learn from each other… so long as we approach one another with humility and sincerity. But if we live in our self-made ivory towers we aren’t any good to anyone.

      My estimation is neither religion or secular science is the problem here. Guns don‘t kill people and white people aren’t the only racists in the world!

      All of the problems we have in the world stem from the human condition know as pride. Religion doesn’t kill people, people kill people! (as long as that religion doesn’t actually teach people to kill, I know that Jesus never told anyone to kill another in his name).

      It was prideful men who held the reins of religion and did unspeakable things during the dark ages and today, but the teachings of Christ never justified killing or harming another.

      If you want to play the religion is evil game then let us consider the communistic ATHIESTIC regimes that have murdered 100 million people in the course of 100 years!

      The commonality for most of our problems in the world stem from pride, thievery, lust, aspirations for power and unrighteous dominion over another. Whether it is some clergyman who lived long ago in a stone fortress or a secular Marxist statist today, the problems is in our nature.

      It seems to me that who ever is at the reins of power whether they be religious or secular they end up falling into the same pitfalls that all men in power have fallen into.

      Who in the world are the moralists that teach us to do no harm to another, I can’t speak for the secular humanists, but for me it is the teachings of Christ that compel me to subdue the lusts of the flesh, my pride and ego.

      Who among the secular humanists are taking the responsibility to fill the gap they are creating? By purging religion from the public square you are eroding the impact of moralistic teaching. It is irresponsible to actively destroy the institution that teaches us morals only to NOT replace that void with something that will do the same job. A society needs morals and standards to have peace and to survive. It is the balance of the universe.

      Report Post »  
    • bostonchris
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 12:17pm

      middle class a call on you to rise up and end the era of progressive blue bloods repub and democrat…i hate to do endorsments cause im a political atheist, but we only have 2 patriots on the short list of candidates they are ron paul and sarah palin…the blue bloods have us by the b&lls with there special interests..we need to congregate and donate..they need money for our ideas to see the light of day..we need to beat them at their own game(FINANCING A CAMPAIGN)also the more people you get on board the better..RON paul said it himself that todays election are all about money. they’re gonna try anything to get us on their side, like romneys a business man and he saved companies and he can do the same…well guess what this is a country not a company and we dont need his help we can do it ourselves get out of our way we dont need you..they’re the problem and now he wants to save us..tell him to go back saving companies like dominoes that is suckking all the money from our mom and pop pizza shops..

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw&feature=fvw watch if you have time

      Report Post »  
    • unionrockstar
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 12:28pm

      One thing for certain;
      We will all know the truth eventually

      Report Post »  
    • auntnoree
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 12:45pm

      If you are hating on his lack of faith save it and pray for him. For you to wish death on anyone else or pain is your lack of faith in our Father, God. Do not sink to the level of those who hate, it only hurts you.

      Report Post »  
    • Malachai
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 12:57pm

      @LDSPATRIOTFAM: The problem is that you assume that the bible has taught us our morals or that we need it to be good people. We absolutely we do not. There have been good people and good cultures without Christianity. Contrarily, there has been bad stuff brought upon by people following their religious beliefs and doing what they honestly thought was right; see The Crusades or the Salem Witch Trials.

      I don’t need an invisible bearded guy in the sky threatening me with an internal inferno to make me not do terrible things to other people. I just don‘t do them because I’m not a douche. I guess that’s what it breaks down to. If you need some higher power to guide you to not do bad things, more power to you. I do not.

      Report Post » Malachai  
    • Tightie Rightie
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 1:14pm

      No less classy than Alan Greyson’s “Die quickly” diatribe.

      Report Post » Tightie Rightie  
    • 2
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 2:15pm

      SHANE2813
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 9:00am
      Hitchens is a Leftist Loon. Go away and die you EVIL thing you.

      P.S. He didn’t go to a prayer gathering for Himself. But He still has time.

      Report Post »  
    • A Doctors Labor Is Not My Right
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 3:10pm

      Hitchens uses words like “cruel” and “dictatorship”, yet the only paradigm in which those words are meaningful is one in which there is a transcendent law.

      So, Hitchen’s argument commits intellectual suicide.

      Report Post »  
    • Jim S
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 3:51pm

      I have always enjoyed Hitchens, disagreed most of the time but thoroughly enjoyed his reasoning. More than once,not much more, he has changed or reinforced my opinion. I am a Christian who wishes him well, as a cancer survivor who prayed REALLY hard a LOT times, I have asked Our Lord to help him with his illness to whatever end that brings him. I hope he has a miracle because I will miss him. Some of the comments here cannot be from intelligent conservatives. We don’t fear a different view, hopefully we listen and don’t go into attack mode,or wish death upon person who thinks are opposite from yours. Hitch is that rare thinker who makes a reasoned argument for his position. If only there were more who were as articulate on all sides.

      Report Post »  
    • Michael Carney (@michaeldcarney on twitter)
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 4:06pm

      Sorry Shane, but that is not the way God sees the man.

      Report Post » Michael Carney (@michaeldcarney on twitter)  
    • Robert W
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 4:53pm

      Sad, I guess Hitchens is too invested to change now. He never explains miracles that have taken place tho, Fatima…100,000 witnesses…Lourdes…unexplainable cures etc. The poor man has painted himself into an intellectual corner. Ok…I get the agnostic view, but how can a human being say he knows for 100% theirs no God….its silly really.

      Report Post »  
    • KristiJo
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 7:52pm

      I miss hearing from Tony. He was a true friend to America.

      Report Post » KristiJo  
    • LDSPATRIOTFAM
      Posted on November 27, 2010 at 7:58pm

      @ MALACHI

      Interesting. I can agree with you that you don’t need a religion to teach you that there is right and there is a wrong. In my own religion we call this the spirit of Christ, not to be confused with the gift of the Holy Ghost. Everyone (according to what I believe mind you) is born with this light of discernment to understand basically that there is a right and a wrong way of doing things. Just the fact that we feel like there should be a right and wrong way tells us we have this built-in compass. But as with all things in the world there are many rights and many wrongs and there is no consensus as to what is right and wrong for everybody. That is the great debate throughout history I guess and why nations rise and fall, everyone trying to assert their version of right and wrong onto others (But usually stems from pride).

      I see what you are saying about the crusades and the salem witch trials, I can even say this for the persecution of the early latter-day saints. But the point I was making at least with regard to Christianity, these were imperfect men holding the reins of power. Even though Jesus says to turn the other cheek and to not kill another or get angry with another, these imperfect religious men still acted out their anger and harmed others. Does that make the teachings of Jesus null and void or wrong? No it just shows that men are weak and will always have a disposition to fall into the pitfalls mentioned on the previous post.

      Maybe we should start off having a discussion as to what do you mean when you say ‘religion’? According to the Bible in the Book of James; True ‘religion’ is to visit the widows and help the poor (Bad paraphrasing). When I say religion I think of the pure teachings of Jesus Christ. I am not thinking about King James and the Church of England, or the Catholic churches or even my own church for that matter. Even in my own religion I have met people who have done me wrong, mostly fellow members, but that didn’t make me feel like the teachings of Jesus were void, it just reaffirmed to me that people are imperfect.

      Communist regimes that are built on atheism have murdered millions of people in such a short period of time. Does that make communism murderous in nature? Maybe. But I think the deeper underlying problem is the pride of man.

      But since we are having a discussion about America and our American values we do need to recognize that Christianity is the source for our very intricate set of values. The Founders knew this from the beginning (the evidence is myriad). Tocqueville noted that the safeguard to civilization is morality and the safeguard to morality is religion. I agree with Tocqueville on this. If you want to purge religion from the public square then you need to have a plan to fill the void. A society needs morality for it to survive. A COMMON morality that most people will adhere to. We can see today as religious influence is eroding in our nation there are now some many diverse views as to what is right and what is wrong. Everything is relative. Our nation is becoming balkanized because of it. If we continue down that path to confusion and ambiguity then our laws will mean nothing anymore, because everyone will have there own view on what the “spirit of the law” means to them. Men will become a law unto them selves. Once the foundation of law is gone then civilization will destabilize. Look at Rome.

      As to my motivations, I can’t speak for others, but for myself. I don’t try to follow the teachings of Jesus because I am afraid of him. The Lord says in the Bible that He has not given us the spirit of fear. He does not want us to live in fear of him. Certainly a respect and reverence, but not a gun held to your head kind of fear. Another thing to consider is that we are given laws from God so that we can live a happy and full life. The teachings of Jesus will give us true happiness. Life will still be hard, but the teachings o f Jesus are the best principals that will yield the best fruit.

      Have you ever read the parables and teachings of Jesus to see if they would have meaning in your life? Have you tried to implement what Jesus said in your life. I know that if you try it sincerely and with faith you will know that they are divine in nature.

      Report Post »  
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