Too PC? New Australian Curriculum Bans References to Birth of Jesus in Textbooks
- Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:10pm by
Madeleine Morgenstern
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Australia’s new school curriculum will swap all “BC” and “AD” textbook references with the more politically correct “BCE” (Before Common Era) and “CE” (Common Era) terms, a decision that is prompting anger from many Christians.
The Australian Curriculum, Assessment and Reporting Authority ordered the changes — which have not yet taken effect — saying the new terms are becoming increasingly standard.
But Sydney Archbishop Peter Jensen called removing references to the birth of Jesus Christ an “intellectually absurd attempt to write Christ out of human history.”
“It is absurd because the coming of Christ remains the center point of dating and because the phrase ‘common era’ is meaningless and misleading,” Jensen told the Sydney Daily Telegraph.
He added that it was akin to calling Christmas “the festive season.”
The change also has the makings of a potential political firestorm, angering conservatives in Australia’s opposition Liberal National party.
“Kowtowing to political correctness by the embarrassing removal of AD and BC in our national curriculum is of a piece with the fundamental flaw of trying to deny who we are as a people,” opposition spokesman Christopher Pyne said.
He added that it was pointless to try to deny Australia’s heritage.
“Australia is what it is today because of the foundations of our nation in the Judeo-Christian heritage that we inherited from Western civilization,” Pyne said.
Rev. Fred Nile, a member of Australia’s New South Wales parliament, called the change “an absolute disgrace.”
“The direction of the national curriculum is towards almost a Christian cleansing to remove from our history any references to the role Christianity had in the formation of Australia and still has today,” Nile said.
BCE and CE gained favor during the late 20th century to emphasize sensitivity to non-Christians who might object to “Before Christ” or the implicit “Our Lord” reference to Jesus in “Anno Domini,” although both terms are still widely used and recognized.
In the U.S., the use of BCE and CE is growing, although guidelines or restrictions about using the terms in public education have largely been left to the local level.
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Comments (396)
webpreacher
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:02pmAs to the matter of the Australian Curriculum to change BC & AD to whatever, it really does not matter who agrees or disagrees with their decision, it is whats to come throughout the world, and has been since Genesis 3, an assault on the Truth, the Word of God. Is anybody really surprised with this news, think it strange, or unseemly…why? There are similar decisions which have been made right here in America, just recently, Mayor (?) Bloomingidiotberg, banning prayer at the 9/11 Ceremonies marking the 10th anniversary. Other such assaults on God’s Word which have taken place, we’re all pretty much aware of this fact, which prompted Obama to declare, that “America is no longer a Christina Nation”,, and he is right.
Know also this, the day comes, when there will be a “One World Order”, one Global Government, having a one world court, police, military, currency, and one religion, and it won’t be Christianity.
I can only praise the Lord for His soon coming return to take out His Church ( “THE BORN AGIAN…FOLLOWER OF CHRIST”) before the “Antichrist” sets up his kingdom here, which will be the One World Order,, which is the return of the days of “Babel”..
Get on board the ship of Salvation, which is Christ Jesus, God’s provision for deliverance and of life everlasting, enter in before the door is shut, and the age of “Saved by Grace”.. is closed !
Time, times and the dividing of time (Daniel 7), draweth neigh
_____________
Rational Man
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:08pmGreat post!……Thank you!
Report Post »lovenfl3
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:22pmRight on Webpreacher. It certainly is a sign of the times, and so far it’s not looking good. It seems that today everyone is offended by everything. PC is destroying the world. At the end of the day the only people protected are the evil elements in society. Whenever there is an attack from radical muslims, it is quickly compared to christians. Even though there is no real comparison. These are dangerous times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbJylJQ3JGE
Report Post »Infidel49
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:26pmAmen Brother, but the true enemy of mankind is not of this world. The great deceiver is pulling the strings. The day the NWO rises up, I will become as sharp as a thorn to be thrust into their side. I will bow before NO MAN. Via Con Dios.
Report Post »gmoneytx
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:28pmSpot on webpreacher, as also said in the bible, it will be darkest before the dawn
Report Post »tifosa
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:29pmWEBPREACHER, I’m not buying it. You start posts by calling people “illiterate,“ you threaten ”hell’s flames” for people whom you perceive have information wrong? You give the truly faithful a bad name.
Report Post »ashestoashes
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:54pm@WEBPREACHER Mindblowingly correct in what you have written.
Report Post »shirelover
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:58pmtifosa – really? Just because of your post, I went back and re-read Webpreacher’s post… I have to say, if that is what you got out of his post, you must have a sad, sad soul.
Mr. Webpreacher – great post, thank you sir.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:59pm“That day will not come until the man of lawlessness be revealed first.”
Note the text does NOT say, “That day will not come until the rapture occur first.”.
You rapture nuts are in for a real surprise!
Report Post »conservative510
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:12pmEvery time anyone on earth mentions a date, whether it‘s a birthday or today’s date, they refer to The Christ. Today is September 3, 2011. 2011 years from what?!
Report Post »Jezcruzen
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:13pmNice post, but you and thousands of other Christians will be mightily disappointed when the “rapture” does not occur. This “rapture” myth is a seed planted by Satan himself that will cause a great many weak Christians to curse YAWH once they find themselves in Tribulation, too. No free rides in this side of the river, folks!
Report Post »poorrichard09
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:17pmEven if a person isn’t a Christian (I am) Jesus’ life is a historical event-they’re re-writing history.
MARCH4HIM
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:20pmYou go !!! WEBPREACHER
Report Post »I agree 100%…
THANKYOU !!
WSGAC
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:23pm@Jezcruzen – You are absolutely right! Many a believer will fall away because they trusted in such nonsense!
Report Post »thegreatcarnac
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:25pmyou are right…web preacher…
Report Post »momprayn
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:39pmThe word “rapture” is only a word chosen to describe the event of being “caught up”: “…then we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 therefore biblical. The problem we have is not the word “rapture” – it’s the timing. For those that aren’t aware – there are many Christian scholars who disagree with it being before the Tribulation period. This is controversial and there are many scriptures to back it up and as for me, after studying for decades, think we will all have to go through it and Jesus will come back & the “saved” be caught up to Him (raptured) – right at the end and just before the earth/heavens are destroyed by fire as described in 2 Peter 3. I try not to argue too much about “non-salvation” issues which is petty and not constructive – but this one bothers me because, like others have said, there will be untold numbers who believe the “Pre-Trib” rapture and if it doesn’t happen, they will be very disillusioned with “preachers” who have dogmatically claimed that – and won’t listen to the truths they do say…..maybe leave the church totally. At the very least, the ppl who are in these high positions, should state it is THEIR OPINION and give the others as well. It’s much wiser to be prepared for the “worst” but hope/pray for the “best”.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:40pm@Jezcruzen
It is not a myth that the righteous are never JUDGED with the wicked. The typology is Noah’s Ark (“as in the days of Noah”), and Jesus coming as a thief (to snatch away). People mocked Noah too.
Maybe you are unaware that the Tribulation will be God’s judgment on the wicked, AND the time of Jacob’s Trouble (so the nation of Israel WILL have to endure it, and two-thirds will die). If you want to be tortured and beheaded for Christ — or God forbid, not be able to bear it and take the mark of the beast so your children don’t starve and are tortured to death as well — then, fine, go ahead and stay. Me and my loved ones are out of here the moment the trumpet of GOD sounds.
Report Post »turkey13
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:42pmEveryone planning a trip to Australia shoud cancel and hit these people in the pocket book. Ihave a no fly list and many states in our country are on it. If the people vote these people in office they should have to live with their decisions.
Report Post »pwatkins
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 3:33pmAmen!
Report Post »Drives Like Jehu
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:12pmAmen webpreacher & kryptonite.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
The Lord did not bid John to “Come up hither” AFTER the Tribulation Vision, but BEFORE.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:27pmYo Preacher:
I agree with you. However the “rapture’ does not happen till the sound of the seventh trumpet. The church will be here through these comming troubled times !!!!!
Yo marchforhim;
Report Post »I believe I owe you an apology for a reply I made to you on a post by you in another story. If so, please accept my apologies.
Lucy Larue
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:28pmWEBPREACHER,
Yeah great.Christ is coming. Got it.
Christ does not operate on LINEAR time as we do.
Years to us are moments to him.
This is just me but …,I think that Christ would think that this is an abomination! It is a destruction of a knowledge bank. It is a destruction of HISTORY!
What hope does the world have when a nation that was orginally a PENAL COLONY, full of free thinkers, falls all over itself to be “POLITICALLY CORRECT”?
It truly is IDIOCY in its purest form. UGH!
Obviously I post from Wonderland. Down is up. Up is down. We’re painting the roses RED!
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:31pm@Kryptonite
Noah was on Earth when God’s judgement, the flood, came was he not?
The Israelis were in Egypt when God’s judgement came.
Abraham and Lot were on Earth when God judged Sodom.
Tribulations is mentioned numerous times in the Gospel. Stephen being stoned, Paul being beheaded and Peter crucified I’m sure is considered Tribulation.
God puts wheat in his barn first and burns the hell out of the bundled tar.
Wheat being believers
Barn being Heaven
Tar being non believer
Doesn’t say anywhere tar gets a second chance to decide.
P.S. No where in God’s Word is there 7 years and tribulation. No where. If so please provide the verse. Daniels 70 weeks have been completed. Open your eyes.
As for dates, I couldn’t careless. I will educate my children correctly just as I educate them Christmas is not Jesus’s birthdate and is not a Christian event really at all. Minthra’s birthday is December 25, you know, the poser who said he was Christ.
Report Post »Andrew from Down Under
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:32pm@Turkey13
Report Post »So by that logic I should boycott a trip to the US because of all of Obama’s bad policies, right? What will that achieve? We here in Oz are fighting this government with everything we have- they are at their most unpopular ever, and are one resignation away from falling, due to their slim one seat majority! We have been resisting and kicking up a stink about this new curriculum for at least three years, due to it’s blatant attempts to rewrite history! Turkey13, you could do with a trip here to OZ- you would then realize that culturally and politically, Australians are more like Americans than anyone else, even Canadians at most times! Many Washington insiders follow our political and electoral cycles, as we are somewhat of a canary in the coal mine for the US- what happens here generally happens there! Do some research before you start arrogantly generalizing people with nknowledge whatsoever!
4truth2all
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:39pmYo Jezcruzen:
Report Post »There ya go!
I believe the great falling away is in part because of this false teaching.
People have been using God as a sugar daddy.
The great test of Job is comming.
Jesus, in John DOES NOT pray for us to be saved FROM, but THROUGH trouble.
This will be used by God to make His bride ready. so we will also see God do marvelous things for His people.
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:43pm@WebPreacher
“Know also this, the day comes, when there will be a “One World Order”, one Global Government, having a one world court, police, military, currency, and one religion, and it won’t be Christianity.”
We have the one world order now.
We have one world government since League of Nations
We have one World Court at the Hague.
We have one World police, UN.
We have one world military, UN.
We have one world currency, the dollar.
We have one World religion, thru the Pope, which says all Religion is thru him.
I appreciate your enthusiasm but your looking thru blinders. I mean no disrespect and ask you look at history and read God’s Word. I’ll post some info that might help you.
Report Post »ShyLow
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:50pmThou shall not grab on-to things you can’t let loose of…this includes Grizzly bears,Herpes,and one-world government
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:54pm@Drives like Jehu
Stop it, you do not know what your speaking.
When does the rapture or gathering in the sky occur? At the sound of a trumpet.
So according to you and your use of Rev 4.1 we will come up hither before the Seals and trumpets and plagues. Clearly you are not correct. There is only one trumpet to gather us up and it ain’t the first one. Please, do not parrot someone else’s false information. It’s considered false teachings of Christ.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 5:44pmYo Momprayn:
Report Post »Blessings,Keep up the praying.
Please consider… the bible clearly states when the “rapture’ will occur… at the sound of the seventh trumpet. after this the bowls of judgement are poured out by Jesus Himself. I could speak a book of details here. You say that it is not a salvation issue. Yet you also realize that it will be a salvation issue for many. PLEASE, consider you own words here. ( I am not being critical of you, please know this). This means in fact that many (a great falling away) will lose their salvation. Is it not then a matter of utmost importance that this FALSE teaching be exposed with great concern for those that hope for the easy path. I asked the Lord why is this false teaching being taught by so many prominent pastors. I got an immediate reply…The great test of Job is comming…Praynmom do you know Job? I believe some of the worst enemies of the church will be those in the church when everything is taken away. I know my own experience of trouble, and the anger I began to feel toward God, almost raising my fist against Him. I remember it well.. IT SCARED ME that I could get that mad at Him. Please, Praynmom stand on Gods truth. Anger at God that will cost a soul is not petty.
ILUVJESUS
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 6:18pmAmen!
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 6:23pm4Truth2all
“at the sound of the seventh trumpet. after this the bowls of judgement are poured out by Jesus Himself.”
I respectfully ask you where it is you find Jesus pouring out the plagues AND God’s wrath.
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. (Revelation 15:6 KJV)
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. (Revelation 15:7 KJV)
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. (Revelation 15:8 KJV)
Report Post »Rational Man
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 6:24pmShyLow
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:50pm
Thou shall not grab on-to things you can’t let loose of…this includes Grizzly bears,Herpes,and one-world government.
Chapter and verse please?
Report Post »You Paulistians never fail to entertain………..Thanks, (again), for the laughter!
Nothing like lunacy in the King James english!
pollyanna
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 6:57pmMatthew 10:33 “But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.”
We were warned that this would come to pass…
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 7:50pm@WSGAC et al.
“That day will not come until the man of lawlessness be revealed first.”
Note the text does NOT say, “That day will not come until the rapture occur first.”.
You rapture nuts are in for a real surprise!
Dear Brother,
I give you some MEAT:
Be like the Jews of Berea. SEARCH the Scriptures (Acts. 17: 11). Delve deeper. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15). Look at “the whole counsel of God,” lest you do as most Jews, who rejected Messiah because they could not reconcile the suffering Messiah and the conquering Messiah being one same person coming two different times.
The Rapture was revealed to Paul and he talks about it in his first letter to the Thess. As you can see the Thess. were spiritually lazy, because whatever he had already told them in great detail, he had to explain again.
The particular verse you quote reads “apostasia” literally means in the original Greek “the standing away/from/out of,” NOT “the falling away” (look it up in Encarta, if you don’t believe me). The noun “apostasia,” is derived from the verb “aphistemi,” which is translated in the NT as “DEPART” (literally, “stand away/from/out of”).
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 7:52pm@WSGAC II
Show me in the original Greek where “apostasia” means “a falling away/departing FROM THE FAITH.” Whenever that specific connotation was intended, it had to be explained, i.e., “aphistemi” from WHAT or from WHOM (2 Tim. 2:19; Acts 12:10). The original meaning later EVOLVED to include “from the faith,” because of the prevalent use of the word “apostasia” in that specific context.
This evolution of lexicon is a very common linguistic phenomenon. Here’s another biblical example. People now interpret “apocalypse” to mean “end of the world destruction,” but in the original Greek it simply means “revelation” (literally, “unveiling”):
“…against the day of wrath and revelation (apokalypsis) of the righteous judgment of God. (Rom 2:5) (This is the connotation we are familiar with)
“…I shall speak to you either by revelation (apokalypsis) or knowledge… (1 Cor 14:6)
“…And I went up by revelation (apokalypsis), and communicated unto them that gospel… (Gal 2:2)
Latin languages such as French, Spanish and Italian, retain the original word “apocalypse” instead of “revelation” to designate the last book of the NT. This is probably why the Rom 2:5 connotation became standard.
Report Post »PASSIONFORCHRIST
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:01pmHey @webpreacher, Awesome PLANTING!!!!!!!!!!!
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:03pmIn summary, in his second letter to the nitwits at Thessalonica, Paul was reminding them of what he had already explained and recorded in his first letter. In I Thess. 4, Paul describes the rapture first, and then goes on to describe the “Day of the Lord,” which is a time of judgment. Notice that Paul says of that time period:
==> For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
The only time there will be “peace and safety” in these end times we are already living in AFTER the antichrist comes on the world scene. BEFORE that there will be ever increasing havoc. The antichrist will bring 3.5 yrs. of false peace. THEN, sudden destruction will come. Notice we are not mentioned, because we have escaped. Or do you think the nuclear bombs will be selective?
Use your common sense, Okie. We are spread throughout the globe now. However, we WILL be assembled or gathered — IN THE AIR!! The Israeli remanant will survive on earth only because they will be localized. We are not. This will be FINAL JUDGMENT, friend, upon ALL the inhabitants of the earth (Petra possibly, excepted).
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:09pmOops. Should read: The only time there will be “peace and safety” in these end times we are already living in is AFTER the antichrist comes on the world scene.
Report Post »Eliasim
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:20pmYou seem very wise, Webpreacher. Are you wise enough to be aware that the painting of Leonardo da Vinci’ “Last Supper” was and is propaganda to lead your mind in details and symbolic ideas that never existed? For example the appearance of certain Apostles. Are you wise enough to know that the wicked powers in the world have been doing their best to dilute Christianity ever since Jesus’ crucifixion? Just as Social Justice is binding with churches even now, do you think this is the first time the truth has been bastardized? One such truth: that “The church” isn‘t Christ’s church at all, and Christ’s church is branches that go to many churches and also not, and to many people whom attend no church?
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:29pm1 day = one year Ezekiel 4:6
The Bible uses a 30 day month. This can be shown thru Noah and flood. Rain started on 17th day 2nd month.(Genesis 7:11) Water receded 150 days later.(Genesis 8:3,4) Ark rested on 17th day of 7th month.(Genesis 8:3,4) 150/5=30
Time = 30 days x 12 months = 360 years
Times = 720 years
Half time = 180 years
= 1260 years reign
9 keys to the Little horn in Daniel 7
It came up from within the 10 nations (v8)
It arose after the 10 nations began (after 476ad) (v 24)
It has a greater appearance than the 10 (v20)
A man sits at its head (eyes like a man) (v8)
It plucked up 3 nations: Heruli 493ad; Vandals 534ad and Ostrogoths in 538ad (v 21,25)
It blasphemed against God speaking pompous words (v8,20,25)
It will make war with the saints (v 21,25)
Changes times and laws (v 25)
Will reign 1260 years (7.25)
538 Ad-Papal Rome begins reign
1798 Ad-Papal Rome received head wound
=1260 years
25 times as many believers were killed in this time frame then Hitler killed Jews. Think about that.
Please note these 1260 years are the same as the 1260 days and 42 months of Revelation.
1798 what happened? A new beast (Nation) came out of the ground with two horns. The USA…..
Head wound of Rome was healed in Lateran Treaty 1929 Vatican becomes church and state, again.
This is a start and should help you see where exactly we really are in God’s “time”…..May God help you see….
Report Post »Messenger4God
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:40pm“Know also this, the day comes, when there will be a “One World Order”, one Global Government, having a one world court, police, military, currency, and one religion, and it won’t be Christianity”
Never happened, never will. Dream on.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:43pmYo Okie:
Report Post »I did not properly state (write) that did I. My mistake. If you go to Revelation 16 it is here that the bowls are being poured out. They are poured out by angels (I said Jesus). My understanding is that it is done in His presence at His command after the sounding of the seventh trump. Does this answer you question?
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:43pm@Kryptonite
“It is not a myth that the righteous are never JUDGED with the wicked.”
Common sense tells us that statement is incorrect. Abraham/Lot, Noah, and Israeli’s in Egypt show us this. Judgment (punishment) is different but not judgement time.
Jesus‘s parable of Tar and Wheat is pretty common sense isn’t it. Reaper (angel) comes to reap the harvest (souls), wheat (believers) are taken to the barn (Heaven), and the Tars (non believers) are bundled. [In case your not a farmer, when you harvest you can not pick to cut only the good plants, you cut them all down together and sort (bundle) good and bad.] The bundled Tars are then burnt (Hell) to they are ashes.
Again, please provide the verse of 7 years and tribulation together. It does not exist that is why you can not. Common sense then tells us it’s a false teaching of man.
3.5 is not time, times, and half times. Nope nope.
And your incorrect in telling Jews they’ll have a second chance. Your story is full of holes and I am commanded to exploit every single one and will do so. Please, do not take it personal.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:54pm4Truth2all
Yes, thank you kindly. I was like huh. :-) There is debate whether before or after 7th trumpet to the timing of the plagues/wrath. I personally believe the 7th trumpet is after the plagues. Give me a second and I’ll provide the scripture for backup.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 9:12pm@Kryptonite – Please note that the Thessalonians were concerned that the day of the Lord had come, and they had missed it. Paul corrects their error by stating that the Day would not come until the man of lawlessness first be revealed. Paul thus missed his greatest opportunity to tell of a pretrib rapture. Why didn’t he simply say, “Silly Thessalonians! The Day of the Lord hasn’t come because the rapture must first take place!”
Answer: He did not say it because there is NO pretrib rapture. You simply infer a pretrib rapture because some numbskull named Darby has done the thinking/interpreting for you!
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 9:21pm@momprayn
Report Post »It works both ways, don’t you think? Personally, I think more people would blame *God* if they were left behind, than the other way around. First, because they will probably think they should have been snatched with the others, even though they had no FAITH, nor were they waiting for the Bridegroom (those silly virgins!). Second, because the trib. will be so demonic and horrific, if we weren’t meant to stay, we may lack the grace to live through it. On the other hand, if I were wrong and EVERYONE stays, then I would have to gird up my loins and accept *I* was wrong.
kryptonite
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 9:24pmOkie,
Report Post »The problem with debating you is that you believe in Replacement Theology, so your foundation for interpreting Bible prophecy is as good as that of a heathen’s. Sorry, friend. All biblical prophecy revolves around Israel, so nothing of what you say makes any sense whatsoever.
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 9:37pm@Kryptonite
Replacement theology, really? Let‘s talk this thru to find truth with God’s Word and let it determine who’s correct.
Secondly, if you had facts, instead of your false opinion, you would provide it. In fact, aren’t you commanded to? Do it…..
So back to “replacement”, exactly what am I replacing? Please tell me more of what I believe…
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 9:50pm@Kryptonite
If I believe in “Replacement Theology” or “Fulfillment by Jesus” then you believe Jesus didn’t fulfill or was the Messiah and are awaiting one like the Jewish. Right?
Either Jesus came as Messiah, allowing Gentiles to be saved like you and I, or you believe he did not. Don’t ride the fence.
Please, do not walk away, let’s talk this thru for truth. I will be back in bout an hour, have an errand, and look forward to your response and to finish this conversation. My Faith, confidence in God’s Word, will show us Truth, and I am not afraid to face it. Hope your not either. Talk to you soon.
Report Post »chazman
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 10:13pm… I have been on the backslide long enough. The Lord gently calling to me at night is what interupts my sleep. I am in tune with the world, and it worries me. I am a Christian and I am a soldier, and my time is coming where my worries will be turned into a raging weapon! Truth will prevail … His Will be done …
Report Post »jzs
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 10:24pmThe United States has never been, officially, a “Christian nation” although there were many practicing Christians when the nation was founded. To be sure, the word “God” was mentioned once in the Declaration of Independence, but nowhere in the Constitution of the United States is the word “God” or any reference to the Christian religion to be found. The United States was established as a secular nation for good reason. The only references to religion in the Constitution were ones that prohibited decisions being on the basis of religion“ the Constitution prohibited a ”religious test” for holding office for example.
WEBPREACHER, the Constitution of United States of America was very careful to ensure that the government was divorced from religion. The Founders wisely didn’t want to recreate the abusive government of England, or create a government like we have now in Iran.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 11:10pm@ Okie,
Just a very friendly observation, please take it in that spirit. Your posts seem Pharisaic as though you are the only person who has the right answer. On the topic of the rapture, many informed and educated Christians opinions vary. I really don’t think Jesus will judge us harshly for not getting it right on exactly when the rapture will occur, especially if it is presented to others as many Biblical scholars differ. I don’t think we lead anyone astray by presenting all of the viewpoints and having a person research it on their own with the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
That said, you are very well informed and researched on your Bible knowledge. You have me a little confused, however, on your timeline. I am no expert on papal history but I thought it started with Peter. Also, I was confused with the 1798 year and what occurred with the papacy at that time. And how does the year 1798 factor in with the U.S. The formation of the country occurred a few years prior to that?
In His love, a sister in Christ
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 11:43pmI have studied Daniel and Revelation and do believe the 70 weeks represent years with the final week being separated from the rest. It’s shocking to the have the precise accuracy of the 69 “weeks” and exactly what occurred throughout that time. I’d have to pull out my notes on Daniel to give you a list. Maybe tomorrow. : )
In Rev 3:10, Jesus says he will keep those who have kept His word from the hour of trial. Again, I lean toward mid-trib but I don’t think any of us can be absolutely sure on this issue. I think the 1,260 represents that midway part. The Bible is full of dual references so your 1,260 years can be correct but it can also be correct as days.
Report Post »LibertarianForLife
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 11:53pmThank “god” that they came to their senses. No right thinking person could believe such nonsense. They are not downplaying Christianity’s role in human history, just pointing out its obvious falsity.
kryptonite
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 12:02amWSGAC,
The Church was experiencing great persecution and naysayers (like you) had convinced the dimwits at Thessalonica that what Paul had taught them was a lie, that there was no Rapture, and that the Day of the Lord (time of judgment) had already begun.
Paul corrects that. He explains, “AS I ALREADY TOLD YOU, the day of the Lord cannot come before the DEPARTING (that is the Rapture), and the manifestation of the antichrist. He will make himself to be God, but then Jesus will return and destroy him. ”
So Paul did remind them of the right order of events, just not using your language. BTW, the Wycliffe Bible (1382-1395) uses the words “departing away.” It predates Darby. In fact, it predates all other English versions of the Bible.
As to Darby having invented pretrib Rapture, that is absolutely incorrect. There is ample docuumentation that refutes your claim. Skip the intro, if you only want to read the quotes:
Report Post »http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Inspire/Rapture.Darby.html
kryptonite
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 12:11amOkie,
Report Post »I’ll have to pass. We already had a similar debate on the topic of Replacement Theology — I just didn’t call it that — so there’s no point in doing it again. You are so departed from any orthodox interpretation of the end times, that there is no shared foundation on which to base the debate. Sorry, friend. :)
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 12:12am@CoPatriots
Howdy. I appreciate your observations and commenting. I do not know all but I have devoted my life to studying God’s Word. You are correct in there are many different thoughts and opinions, but there is only one truth and it is our duty as Christians or better put believers to seek out that truth and to extinguish false truths by standing in truth, God’s Word.
Pharisaic is believing one knows better then God, and whether intended or not is an insult. I am nothing without God and his grace who shows us truth in God’s Word, not just my opinion or thought.
As for your questions: Many will say Peter was the first Pope, but if you read God’s Word it tells us opposite. If you‘d like I’ll provide the verses.
Emperor Justinian’s Decree in 538 AD over took Rome with General Bellsarius and once inside banished the Bishop of Rome and declared Vigilius, a non Christian as Pope. Papal reign begins. 1798 Pius was taken from power by Napoleon, Papal Rome reign ends. 1260 years.
Yes, a few years before in 1787 the new beast from the ground, unpopulated area, was forming. Thru time the USA has performed sights in front of the 1st beast, nuked Japan. No one on Earth can wage war against us. Club or Rome, political arm of Vatican, is where all legislation such as Social Justice, Agenda 21, and world Government. They also divided the world into Ten Kingdoms. Check out their website. Rome, where the international court is, influences the USA on every
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 12:22amRome, where the international court is, influences the USA on every thing it does. Why did most come to the USA? Fleeing persecution of Religion.
I hope we continue this conversation. I’ll post Daniels 70 completed weeks. Sorry for the delayed response.
@Krytonite
Your a better person then to walk away with out standing in truth, if your believe you truly have it. If Christ did not fulfill Judaism, as He says in the Bible, you could not be saved. Your theology is flawed and mixed and I encourage you whole heartily to search that and open your eyes and mind to truth. Again, if you are a believer and have truth, stand in it, do not be afraid of truth. Ready to continue when you decide to have the courage.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 12:43am@ Okie
Thanks for your info. I’ll research your timeline when I have some time.
I apologize if I offended you. We can’t even agree on the meaning of Pharisaic. LOL To me, it meant self-righteous and condemnatory. And, honestly, seeing you, again, tell someone who is obviously well-schooled in the Bible that their theology is flawed appears that way. It does seem that you only want to stay in communication to sway people to your viewpoint without really considering theirs. I respect your views and that you have committed your life to pursuing God‘s word but you aren’t the only one who has. My study (and apparently Kryptonite’s) seem to have no value to you other than as a basis of argument. I do not feel that my study and beliefs are contrary to Scripture and I felt led by the Spirit to come to the conclusions I have. You obviously don’t agree with my views on the Daniel interpretation of end times. Okay. I obviously won’t sway your instilled beliefs. However, I am willing to consider that yours has merit and will research when I have more time.
Good night and God Bless.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 1:20am@CoPatriot
Self righteous is believing they know better then God I thought, like the Pharisees believed they did with Jesus. I condemn no one but I do stand in truth when false teachings are presented. Believe it or not, I too believed as you but being led by the spirit of God I began to question and found so many false truths I cried. Just think about this one fact, you have pretty much every “Christian” believing and teaching Jesus Christ was born on December 25th, a total lie. Why and how is that following Christ….It isn‘t and that’s just the surface of obvious false truths.
Our duty as believers is to share God’s Word and help as many as we can receive it. We as believers are to openly rebuke false truths as well with God’s Word. I have no problem being shown wrong, but only with God’s Word and not just an opinion. That‘s Kryptonites and I’s issue, Kryptonite refuses to back up claims with God’s Word, therefore making it an opinion only. When challenged, Kryptonite either walks away or talks down, again providing zero facts from God’s Word. I can not accept that.
I’ll still post Daniels 70 weeks. Thank you for the conversation. Please feel free to email me any time at okiefrommuskogee33@yahoo.com
LIC
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 2:15am457 BC Ezra 7:1-27 – order for Temple to be rebuilt
27 AD Daniel 9:25 Christ Baptized;483 years or 69 weeks
31 AD Daniel 9:26,27 Crucifixion; 3 1/2 years messiah cut off;
34 AD Act 7:59 Stephen Stoned; Gentiles preached to. 70 weeks
When Christ died, the veil ripped and animal offerings stopped. Obligation ceased because Jesus was the last sacrifice and since made Israel desolate for the spreading of abominations until the consummation.(end!)
“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.” (Daniel 9:25 KJV) [7 + 60 + 2= 69]
“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,” but not for himself:” crucifixion for our sin, not Himself
“and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
Rome did this in 70 AD and unturned every stone of the temple, slaughtered many and since has been flooded by Gentiles even to this day.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 2:22am“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” (Daniel 9:26-27 KJV)
Jesus did this; this is not the “anti-Christ as falsely taught today. Jesus fulfilled Judaism and thru his final sacrifice brought the New Testament, a covenant for everyone that believes in him. Offering and obligation ceased.
Last point, please take it to heart; who established current Israel, World Government and 2nd Beast……..
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 2:56am@CoPatriot
I forgot to say this: if your study had no value to me, I’d pretend to be too good and walk away or refuse to converse. (Very poor attitude) Instead, I see you have studied and are informed but not completely accurate in the views I‘ve come to understand with God’s good grace. I present what I believe and understand of God’s Word thru His grace and Spirit and with His Word. If you do the same, we will find truth in God‘s Word thru God’s Word.
Seek and ye shall find…
To me, all those dying in Christ’s name in the past not being mentioned in a lot of theorized prophecy understanding today is very naive of us and arrogant.
Time for shut eye!!!
LIC
Report Post »tomasreal
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 6:28amThe religion of “the new world order” is government and the purpose of this religion is the replace God. There are no governments under God and there is practically no one that even understands what this means. Truth is being eaten by misunderstanding and soon your faith will be put to the test.
Report Post »old white guy
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 7:31ambefore the common era and after the common era. there was nothing common about Christ. there is a whole lot common about those who think God does not matter in our lives.
Report Post »WSGAC
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 8:18am@KRYPTONITE – You said:
[Paul corrects that. He explains, “AS I ALREADY TOLD YOU, the day of the Lord cannot come before the DEPARTING (that is the Rapture), and the manifestation of the antichrist. He will make himself to be God, but then Jesus will return and destroy him.”]
Reply: Wrong again! This is not a correct rendering of Apostosia. And you simply need to check the numerous English versions on the word and its useage. Aside from the Amplfified Version (a Darbyist version) this “departing” as you call it is better understood as a turning away, a falling away, a departing away, a rebellion, which creates the stage for the man of lawlessness to arise. The word and its context preclude your “church departure” understanding.
You said:
[So Paul did remind them of the right order of events, just not using your language. BTW, the Wycliffe Bible (1382-1395) uses the words “departing away.” It predates Darby. In fact, it predates all other English versions of the Bible.]
Reply: Uh, no! You are not being true to the Wycliffe translation. Wycliffe did not render “departing away” as speaking of the church. He knew what apostasia meant…a departing away from God. Much like Noah’s day where knowledge of God was sparse and the thoughts and imaginations of men were only evil continually. Wycliffe understood what apostasia meant, and that it referred to the world, NOT the church, so don’t misconstrue Wycliffe to suit your own Darbyist agenda.
Report Post »louise
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 8:25am@ Okie;
Great post. These days, that is what I say to family, friends, neighbors….get on the Ark because the door is about to be closed.
If people would take a step back and consider the big picture, They will be able to connect ALL the dots, not just the “geo-political” dots. People are beginning to understand that politics, in and of itself, does not, cannot, save them. Sin has infected every aspect of this world since Genesis 3:15….and since that time, God provided the way back Home. That Way back Home is Jesus.
Report Post »In the meantime while we are lining in this world, we carry the Word that is planted in our hearts to our families, communities and the world, trusting in the knowledge that it will shine Light in the darkness.
kryptonite
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 1:55pm@WSGAC
Report Post »++Why do you keep accusing me of following Darby? Didn’t you read about believers prior to Darby who spoke of pretrib Rapture? My belief is based on: 1) biblical verses that speak of the snatching away or hiding of the Church during the time of God’s wrath; 2) God’s pattern of dealing with the righteous and the unrighteous in the OT; 3) End time parables in the light of Jewish culture; 4) Jesus’ placing his coming for the Church in the context of a Jewish wedding; 5) A study of how the Jewish feasts are types of God’s timeline for the Church; 6) How all of the above interrelate and harmonize. As you can see, my focus is on Jewish interpretation of end time verses.
kryptonite
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 2:06pm++Take e.g. the Parable of the Ten Virgins. How can you explain it using a post trib interpretation? They were all saved because:
a) They had lamps (the Light) and went to meet the bridegroom (Jesus);
b) A virgin symbolizes the Bride of Christ (2 Cor. 11:2), and
c) Virginity symbolizes purity and separation unto God (Rev. 14:4).
Five of them were “foolish,” (not wicked). **ALL** the virgins “fell asleep” (they didn’t “fall away from the faith.” Imagine “falling asleep” when angels are pouring plagues over all the inhabitants of the earth, and you can’t buy or sell, unless you have surrendered to the antichrist. Yeah, right.). Then “at midnight,” (not after every eye has see him), comes the Bridegroom’s call.
Notice that the foolish virgins had oil, but it was not enough for the journey (v. 7). Jesus tells them, “I don’t know you” (not “I never knew you,” like he tells the wicked servants). If you look at the original Greek (do you ever do that, brother?) you will notice the accusative of that verb is a THING, as in John 10:4, not a person). So, Jesus is not denying *them;* He is denying their call to open the door. Ponder that, because it may be that you will miss it if you are not waiting for it. Calling pretrib Rapture a “Darbyist agenda” is simplistic – and foolish.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 2:18pmYo Okie:
Report Post »You were going to get back to me with a verse concerning the timing issue. You said in a second, it’s been time plus half a time times time. So, I thought it was time to remind you.
4truth2all
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 2:42pmYo Momprayn:
Report Post »I made an error in my reply to you that was brought to my attention by another poster. I said that Jesus poured out the bowls; angels did this. Sorry for the mis-write.
kryptonite
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 2:55pm@WSGAC,
++Your explanation of 2 Thess. 2 is that these believers were somehow afraid they had missed the Day of the Lord (which I guess you equate to post-trib Rapture). Really? I’d know for sure the Lord had not come, since He obviously wasn’t there. If Paul never taught pretrib Rapture, these believers would know it had to take place AFTER the antichrist’s seven-year rule and destruction, meaning He would be visible to everyone.
Like I said, the original Greek doesn’t specifically tie “apostasia” to faith, so that is your personal interpretation. Moreover, that connotation of “apostasia” as apostasy would be a pretty useless sign, since apostasy has occurred throughout Church history, thus making it impossible for a mere human being to determine when it has reached an unbearable degree in God’s eyes. By contrast, if “apostasia” refers to the RAPTURE already mentioned in Paul’s first letter, it clearly signals to the believer precisely when the manifestation of the antichrist — which is followed by the Day of the Lord — will occur.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 4:32pm@4Truth2All
Howdy, I didn’t forget you and I apologize for not posting sooner.
As I said there is debate of when the plagues and wrath occur and I’ll share what God has led me to believe.
First, it all goes back to if you think the “rapture” is secret or not. I do not believe it to be a secret, most Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib do, which can be proven incorrect.
We know the man of sin must be revealed. We also know the wheat and tare will be harvested TOGETHER, wheat being bundled in the barn and tare bundled (dead) on Earth. You can not come along and gather the wheat only and then poison the Tare. The Wheat can have a protection cover or SEAL so they do not intake the poison. Just as a farmer sprays his hay field with a poison affecting only the weeds, the same is with the plagues. It’s a targeted wrath.
Noah was SEALED in the Ark
Israeli’s put blood of lamb to SEAL their door
Trumpets is symbolized for the falling of Kingdoms. The last Trumpet is the final fall of the Kingdoms of Earth. If the plagues are after this final fall, who will they effect?
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. (Revelation 15:8 KJV)
I can go deeper and provide much more evidence but am limited on this board. Okiefrommuskogee33@yahoo.com
Why do you believe the 7th trumpet is before the plagues?
Report Post »Thank you for patience
kryptonite
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 4:43pm@WSGAC,
One final observation: Jesus’ reference to what was taking place in the days of Noah has to do with *unbelievers*. As in the days of Noah, end-time unbelievers will persist in going their merry, sinful ways, until sudden destruction befalls them. On the other hand, only *believers* can commit apostasy. Thus, your interpretation of “apostasia” as “apostasy” in 2 Thess. 2:3 bears no relation to Jesus’ statement in re the days of Noah.
May God spare us both from the wrath to come. You might even get to sit next to Darby at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. lol
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 4:57pm@Louise
Thank you for your encouragement. Your post is right on the mark as well. Let our light shine!!!!
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 5:53pm@4Truth2All
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; AND NO MAN was able to ENTER into the TEMPLE, TILL the SEVEN PLAGUES of the SEVEN ANGELS were FULFILLED. (Revelation 15:8 KJV)
I do not know if it could be any clearer. When we are raptured, however you believe it is or what that word means, we are before God, therefore, we can only be before God in the Temple. This verse clearly tells us we can not go before God in His temple until the plagues are completed.
@Kryptonite
When we are raptured where do we go? Are we before God?
Report Post »poverty.sucks
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 7:24pmIn the Book of Mormons, no person, place or event has been historically nor archeologically verified. Stay away from it. Gods words is HIStory and available to you by reading the Holy Bible.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 10:22pm@ Okie
Oops….my response to you landed on page 6. :-)
Report Post »survivorseed
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 10:42pm@turkey13….I bet those Aussies will be torn up with the fact that you won’t leave the bayou and travel there. Could you even point to Australia on a map (heres a hint, you need a passport to get there)
Report Post »konakolina
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 10:08amWebpreacher hit the nail on the head. Look to Jesus now before it’s too late. Our own youth are in similar situations to the Aussie youth. God is absent from school. My own daughter as a freshman in college is requiered to take a “Bible” class taught by a liberal atheist and using a politically correct bible. As my daughter says its not God‘s word it’s a textbook.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 10:47amYo Okie:
Was joking… no need to apologize you bonehead (just playing).
I never heard of it being a secret event. not even sure how you mean that. So, that is a non issue
Would also wish to say here, lets keep this simple. Jesus said let the little children come to me. To believers (disciples). Lets apply that “principle” here.
This is my understanding at this moment…. The seals, the trumpets, the bowls (plagues). In that order as that is the order we are told they will be released in.We are called (raptured) to meet Jesus in the air at His 2ND comming (return). At His return the bowls ( wrath of God) will be poured out into, onto the vessels of wrath. Those who refuse to repent. When this is done Jesus will set up His Kingdom here on earth and rule a thousand years with his saints. After the thousand years the devil, who has been bound (there is a reason for this), will be released for a short time. He will gather an army to him and make war against Jesus. HE WILL BE DEFEATED, and evil will be removed forever. Amen
We are called at the sound of the 7th (last) trump. (1 Cor.15:52)
Where do you get the kindoms falling in Revelation. The trumpets are warnings of the events to come listed will each blow of the trumpet.
I am not understanding some of the reasons or connections you are making.I don’t need more. In my humble understanding you are adding to and mis- appling some of the TRUTHS you write. A puzzle only works when the pieces are correctly placed
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 12:27pm@ Okie,
Of the many questions I have……and I think it’s good to keep the discussion flowing here at this point as others may read and have the same questions……the first question I keep coming back to is where you asked “if we are raptured, where do we go?” I would say to the same place that the dead in Christ go…….into the presence of the Lord. In accordance with what Jesus said to the one of the thieves on the cross “today, you will be with me in Paradise”. Do you not think the dead in Christ are already in His presence?
No, I do NOT think a Believer has access to the Temple of God in heaven at that point but we are in the blessed presence of our Lord and Savior.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 1:06pm@ Okie
The next pressing point is how you interpret Rev 3:10. What does Jesus promise to remove us from in your view?
Next, let‘s discuss Daniel’s timeline. In the spirit of time and limited space, you can Google dual reference Scriptures as a basis for this topic. I do believe Daniel as well as other places in the Bible have Scriptures that pertain to prophecy that has already occurred as well as end times. You noted that Daniel’s timeline has already occurred. And I agree that it has. But I also believe that Daniel’s timeline is a dual prophecy. You seem to agree in that you noted the U.S. is a part of formation of the 10 nations. How could that be if Daniel only was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in his prophecy?
You also noted that a day is like a year from Ezekiel. But you also counted Daniel’s “weeks” as years. Rightly so, I might add since according to Strong’s Concordance #7620 the Hebrew for Daniel’s term “shabuwa” can be interpreted as “sevens”…..meaning 70 sevens not necessarily our English translation of weeks. In that sense, it would mean 70 sevens and interpreted as years which is how you landed at the destruction of Jerusalem at 70 A.D. Other than my notes have the decree being issued at 444 B.C., you and I land at the same place on that timeline.
However, considering dual reference prophecy, I go further and will try to make this point as briefly as I can in the following post.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 1:48pm@ Okie
Daniel 9:24-27 is the reference for this. The 70 seven‘s are broken first into the 62 seven’s after which the Anointed One will be cut off and the city is destroyed. And then it says “the end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven”. Who is this “He”? To me, it is a clear reference to the Anti-Christ who breaks his covenant in the middle of the 7 years. The same mid point of 1,260 days as referenced in Revelation. Note also the reference of “the abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed, is poured out on him.” Do you think that refers to 70 AD? It is possible to also be a dual reference but seems far more likely to reference the Anti-Christ’s final destruction.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 2:23pmYo 4Truth2All
Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) is my motto….
Pre trib and Mid Trib are secret raptures, only believers taken and non believers are unaware God has reaped them, otherwise one would know once believers leave they have “7” or “3 1/2″ years to get right with God. I do not accept this theory and have many examples to show it to be false.
The parable of wheat and tare children understood very easily, we should too.
I encourage you to study around how the book of Revelations was written. It’s visions over the same thing, first showing the seals aspect, then the Trumpets, then the Thunders, then the 4 angels, then the plagues. I do not believe it to be in that order, all seals are completed then trumpets, etc. In my faith seals, trumpets, and thunders have begun and can be shown thru history. It is very revealing.
The plagues are just that, plagues, a punishment and upon Christ’s return, which all will see, He will destroy them with the light of His coming and we are raptured. Wheat and Tare harvested together.
Trumpets have always been the symbol of nations falling, Jericho for example. Do you be Revelation to be literal, with actual dragons or figurative? I believe John used symbols to best describe what he was shown.
I am sorry you feel I’m adding or taking away. I am not. It is hard to accept truth when taught for so long false truth as truth. I appreciate our conversation.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 2:23pm@4
I am considering your last trump sound as per 1 Cor 15:52 and will research this further. My first thought is……where are the dead in Christ now? If you believe they are in the presence of the Lord, then in what form are they there? I believe they have not yet received their glorified bodies until the sound of the last trumpet and they return with Christ. I think that is the meaning behind “We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed” in verse 51. I think that also refers to those who are raptured and did not sleep (die). From that understanding, it is possible for the rapture to have occurred prior and the raptured are with the dead in Christ The trumpet then sounds, the dead are raised imperishable (in their glorified bodies “the mortal with the immortal” per verse 54) then Believers return with Christ at the sound of the last trumpet.
Please remember I am not dogmatic on this issue. And, as mentioned, will consider this further as well.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 2:37pm@CoPatriots
I agree, it is good to continue this conversation.
No, when you die you do not go directly to heaven, if so, who is the dead in Christ being resurrected at His coming? Can’t resurrect someone already in Heaven….
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43 KJV)
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
If you ask Kryptonite about that verse, Kryptonite being very well versed around original interpretations, Kryptonite should tell you punctuation was not used and only later added. Christ died the day before the two crooks, thus the guards asked to break their legs at sunset (New day). Christ had gave up the ghost, the others had not. This is all from the Bible.
If we are not in the Temple of God, where Jesus sits right hand of the Father, where are we?
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 3:13pm@CoPatriot
The Church of Philadelphia being talked to is one of the 7 Churches. Do you think we are the Church of Philadelphia? My faith believes it to be the 7 Church ages.
I noted that Daniel described the falling of Jerusalem, it does.
The USA beginning at the time the Papal Rome was falling is found in Revelations, 1st beast and second beast. The 70 7′s, 70 units consisting of 7 of each, begins from temple decree to Stephen death when Gentiles began to be preached to or fulfillment of Judaism occurred, or persecution of Chrisrtians began. Shortly after, as Jesus in his own words said, the Temple was destroyed.
I’m unsure what is confusing you or what you consider to be dual prophesy. The weeks are broken into 7, 62, 7. First 7 built the Temple. It says after the 62 the Messiah is cut off and then describes the Prince coming as a flood and destroying the temple. It then describes in detail how the Messiah is cut off in the middle of the last week after the 62.
Who caused the offerings and oblation to stop? Jesus. How do you tie that to the anti-Christ?
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 3:28pm@CoPatriot
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24 KJV)
Duration: 70 weeks
Who: People and Holy City
Why: End os Sins and reconcile iniquity and bring EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS and to anniont the most High.
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (Daniel 9:25 KJV)
Duration: 69
Start: decree to restore Temple
End: Messiah Prince begins (Anointed, baptized by John the Baptist.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26 KJV)
When: After the 62, which is after the first 7. Thus after the 69th week, somewhere in the 70th.
Report Post »What: Messiah is cut off for us, not himself
Then what: The Prince comes destroys city and over runs with flood till the end
Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 3:33pmAnd he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27 KJV)
When: one week, last 1, mid week, 3 1/2
What: sacrifice cease, oblation cease
Why: overspreading of abominations
How: makes desolate
Duration: til END, or determined wrath is POURED
What else do you believe this to mean?
Above I posted 7,62,7
Should be 7,62,1
I always do that, sorry.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 3:43pmYo Okie:
I would try not to call another stupid, so I’ll take the joke.
Secret… didn’t know how you meant it. Now I do, and yes this is a popular teaching.
Wheat and tares… understand, which is why I did not mention it.
Please do not assume that I am without study. It is certainly possible that I am not up to your standards, but then maybe you are not either. (No disrespect intended)
Figurative and literal… I certainly realize the symbolic aspect to it.
I am not at a place where I am unwilling for my thinking to be changed in that I have all the truth. I am continuing to add to my learning as the Lord instructs us to do.
If I offended you I would apologize, I believe that I stated that in my opinion this may be so. I may be incorrect in my understanding. But what I said I still believe. This is certainly not the best way to dicuss this issue. I do have a better understanding of your viewpoint because of your repy. I am not here to make emenies as I am sure you are also not. I am glad for the discussion.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 4:02pm@CoPatriot
Can you help me if I remember Pre trib and mid trib correctly?
1) raptured to Heaven but not in front of God for 7 or 3 1/2 years only; Dead are already in Heaven? Where are we?
2) Non believers are left for 7 years or 3 1/2;
Unsure what verse says this….?
3). Christ Returns again destroying non believers
Are we on Earth when the Birds eat their flesh as told?
4). reign 1000 years on Earth
5) Devil loose to tempt;
Who’s tempted if non believers are dead?
6) Christ destroys Satan And Hell
If Hell is where we go, why is it tossed in the lake of fire? Who rules Hell is Satan is dead and exists no more?
Just wanna make sure the order is right. If you can answer those questions, great. I will tell you I have verses showing a lot of this inaccurate thus my questions.
I really do appreciate you taking time to converse with me.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 4:19pm@4Truth2All
That is a self motto, referring to me. Seeing your joke I joked backed. I have very thick skin, I’m an okie, so offended I am not very often.
My encouragement to understand how Revelation was written was not intended as disrespect. If you do understand how revelation was written I’m unsure how you come to conclusion seals first, trumpets second etc.
How do you determine which is figurative and which is literal?
I as well do not have all the truth. As posted before I stand in my belief until shown thru God’s word, not man’s, it to be wrong.
Questioning with boldness led me to many truths.
A friend you are of mine, even in disagreement. Your willingness to discuss is the example of what we all must do. CoPatriot is another example as is Kryptonite. All well versed and studied. A few years back I’d be standing side by side saying the same as you all.
If I come across as knowing all, forgive me, I do not. I am passionate about the truth being told and have had these same conversations with others who believe Pre trib and mid trib. I firmly believe in God’s Word telling is what things mean, not man, and by doing so can prove a lot of truths taught today as false.
I really do appreciate our dialogue and your willingness to seek truth, whether confirming what you know or finding it new.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 4:36pm@4Truth2All
If rapture is secret, and one can count the years from the disappearing believers then one would actually know the day and hour to expect God to return, right?
That contradicts not knowing the hour and time as Jesus says no one would know exactly.
We will know the season and are to be watchful because the coming of the son of God will be as a thief in the night to those NOT being watchful.
Those watching will know the season he will be coming. The non believers have their lives snatched from them as a thief snatches away when he steals. Not being watchful, they won’t be ready. They will still be effected. Something to ponder.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 5:01pmYo Okie:
Not sure why you sent me the second post concerning the idea. That was not in disagreement. I just did not understand your reference to the rapture being “secret”.
When do you feel the calling up to be with the Lord is.
I also now realize that you believe in the church ages. I am aware of this teaching, though I have never studied it closely. Is there a good web site to go to for this. I will make some effort to study it.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 5:28pm@4Truth2All
I wasn’t sure on your stance. Was simply noting the contradictions in case you believed the secret rapture theory.
I believe Jesus come as the end, the final Trumpet. I also can show the woes, which accompany the last 2 trumpets and before the last as Islam. My belief:
Christ’s coming is seen by all
Reapers gather harvest, first dead in Christ are risen, believers transform and non believers are slaughtered and bundled as bird food.
We reign in Heaven for 1000 years, (look at translation), as Christ said he is going to prepare a place for us. Satan is bound by c-stance (can’t spell full word without being blocked from posting). Everyone’s dead is the c-stance. Look at original translation and other use of thru Bible.
New Jerusalem comes to Earth, tree life in middle.
Wicked dead are raised, devil loose again to tempt them for tree of life
They gather around city and saints and hell fire destroys them for good.
New heaven and earth created.
I believe right now we are at the final woe before the last trumpet. The last rise of Islam. Could possible seeing this end and four winds of Euphrates being released, social unrest and nations are mad. 10 kings, rich men, having their way with Earth. This is where I’m currently studying.
Not too sure on website..let me look. What belief are you currently holding on how it all goes down?
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 9:52pmYo Okie:
We agree at Christ return…just differ in the time line.
If I understand you correctly… you say we are currently in the sixth trump.(Revelation 9:13 to 11:14) There are many events taking place here… my question is this 1/3 of mankind is killed 9:15-16 , some say this number of troops is the army of China ( they do have this number of troops) what do you think this speaks to (KISS).
What would be your understanding of why satan is bound 1000yrs. (we agree that he is, and the time)
We agree on parts, disagree on others and half agree still on others. I have not really wanted to get into alot of detail in doing this. I just started posting about a month ago and did not wish to get this involved. I have already been spending more time here then should, and due to the many differences I am not sure where to start. I am willing to work through some of this through e-mail. I do have yours. Once you respond to this reply I believe it might be better to speak thru e-mail. When I e-mail you, you will then have my address If you are willing to do this let me know…Blessings
One more question… do you know of a way to save these posts.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 10:22pm@4truth2All
I’m glad to see we agree to be friends. I have a great friend named Gideon I met this very way. We don’t agree totally, but have found truth thru a lot.
Sixth trumpet has ended, which brought the 3rd woe, this last rise of Islam, before the last final trumpet.
1/3 of mankind of the 6th trumpet is in reference to whom the trumpet affects, Papal Rome, which fell thru the Turks/Atheists and finalized by Napoleon. The armies of the Turks where unbelievable. The trumpet announces the falling and then describes how. Details go further to prove, IMO, it to be the second rise of Islam. Thru email we can go deeper.
I‘m all tied up right now so I can not get to your request or do what I’d like. I’m not really tied up but bound by c-stances I can’t control. 1000 years tied up with nothing to tempt, everyones dead, is how I understand this. Remember the Demon Legion that snapped the chains, why can the Devil not do the same. There is another use of this same phrase, I just can’t remember off hand. I’ll find and share in email.
I agree email is a great source. Email me anytime and when you do let me know so I can make sure it goes to my inbox. I receive a lot of spam and posers from publicly posting. It’s worth it.
To save I copy and paste in a notepad. Not sure how to otherwise. Thank you for the great conversation and thank you for using KISS, that made me laugh.
Report Post »2Braptured
Posted on September 6, 2011 at 2:52pmAmen Webpreacher!
Report Post »christos
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:02pm……They are setting the stage for the anti +CHRIST+ the one they bow down to and follow,the anti +CHRIST+ will be revealed soon in Europe the one +JESUS+ has already conquered and is awaiting the pending sentence from + LORD & SAVIOR KING JESUS CHRIST+
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:13pmAgreed Christos. It often seems to me that these NWO folks are actually trying to set up the end times scenario to bring it on. Only God know the day and hour. He will not bend to their timeline. So maybe we are living in end times and maybe we aren’t. Surprisingly, there are still so many cultures who have not heard the Good News. Per Steve Saint in his book “The Great Omission” written in 2006, more than half the population of the world has not been reached.
Report Post »Da Kingfish
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:43pmWhat more do you expect from a country founded as a British Penal colony, I think the term would be called reversion.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:23pm@copatriots
Report Post »They ARE setting up the end time scenario. It’s up to godless men to prepare the stage. We need to realize that a lot has to happen before the antichrist/Mahdi is manifested. The Tribulation will to be horrific beyond words, but things will get pretty bad BEFORE that, because the antichrist will appear as a great leader coming to bring PEACE to a ravaged world. Thus famines, wars, natural disasters, persecution of the Church and Israel will grow exponentially. The number of Gentiles being saved comparative to Jews will be reversed towards the very end, signaling a transition to the re-grafting of the nation of Israel and the fullness of the Time of the Gentiles. That means the love of many Gentiles will wax cold, i.e., be replaced with secularism or a “state gospel” in the face of varying degrees of persecution, hard economic times and/or worldly traps galore. “HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.” I strongly believe that is a reference to those taken away in the pre-trib Rapture, not to the end of the tribulation, since those who believe during the tribulation will be martyred (beheaded), and those who take the mark of the beast will be damned, so what’s there to “endure”? Admittedly, it could be a reference to Jews who fled to Pella in 70AD or to the Israelis who survive the Tribulation (Rom. 11). OR it is prophecy that applies to Israel and to the Church, respectively, as is often the case. Keep oil in your lamps!
copatriots
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:42pmSpot on, Krypt. We are in much agreement. I only question the timing of the rapture. From my study, I lean more toward mid-trib, hope for pre-trib but will accept God‘s wisdom if it’s at the end of the tribulation…..assuming, of course, that it even happens in our lifetime.
I do find it interesting that the same (Jewish-born) Soros behind so much of this mess is the one who sold out his own people to the Nazis as a teenager. I am convinced Soros knows the Bible and is trying to set the end times stage. My point is and was that God has His timeline and no man nor Satan will change God’s timeline and schedule. So much of what we are seeing right now appears to be the fulfillment of Revelation but that doesn’t mean it is. It could be Satan using godless men trying to make it appear as such.
Either way, my lamp is burning! God Bless.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 6:07pmYo Kryptonite and Copatriots:
Report Post »If I may… the “rapture’ is clearly stated as being at the sound of the seventh trump. Please see the prayer of Jesus in John 17:13-19. Christians don’t go around trouble like scared little children. We keep on keepin on. We go THROUGH it. Yea, though I walk through the valley of death I WILL FEAR NO EVIL. Come on! It’s not a time to look for the back door.
Amen, keep your lamps burning !
Don’t mean but in on your conversation ,nor do I want to present myself better you, heaven forbid!
copatriots
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 7:02pm@ 4
It’s an open forum. Welcome to the conversation! I’m not dogmatic on the timing of the rapture. I think there is enough scholarly debate among more learned people than I. I have studied end times rather extensively and I lean to mid-trib. Check out this link:
http://www.nobts.edu/faculty/itor/lemkesw/personal/midtribulationism.html
But I surely am prepared no matter when it occurs which may or may not even be during my lifetime.
Report Post »kalli
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 8:54pm@copatriots
Report Post »God Word tells us the 144,000 children from the 12 tribes of Israel will receive the seal of God on their foreheads so as not to be harmed during the tribulation. These Jews will harvest many throughout the world who will become out of the great tribulation before the last Day of the Lord, or end of the tribulation. For God so loved the world, that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
copatriots
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 9:12pmMost correct, Kalli. I stand with Israel. I’m not understanding why you are pointing this out to me though.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 11:57pmTruth4all,
Sorry I took so long to reply. I don’t fear evil. I would fear the wrath of God, and that‘s what’s coming upon the earth. When God’s wrath comes, his protection is withdrawn. The whole earth will be devastated — except for the safe-haven He will provide for the Jewish remnant. That’s why He has to take us out.
I think you are confusing the LAST trump also called the trump of GOD, with the 7th trumpet sounded by an ANGEL (Rev. 8:6; 10:7). Looking at OT typology, the last trump (shofar) refers to the Tekiah Gedolah, sounded during Rosh Hashanah/Feast of Trumpets. The Christian Jews clearly understood what Paul meant by “the last trump.”
Here are some incredible similarities between the Feast of Trumpets and the Rapture. If you don’t want to watch the vids, you can read the text that follows, which is not as detailed as Perry’s but also explains the Old and New Testament parallels:
http://wwj.9.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=18409
Later.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 2:30pmYo Copatriots:
Report Post »Thanks for the link… checked it out…yeah, kinda knew the pre-post-over-under tribulation stuff, though I am still working on learning more. I did want to say that you have a spirit of humility that so many lack; including me. Humility makes it SO mush easier to work and get along with people…Blessings
4truth2all
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 2:37pmYo Kryptonite:
Report Post »I did not mean to offend you, if I did; my apologies. Passion can turn into foolishness. I listened to the teaching… very interesting. I love the deep things of God. I will do some homework and double checking. I did check out his website and will listen to some of his other teachings. I have seen his name before. Again…thanks.
kryptonite
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 3:00pmTruth2all,
Report Post »Offend me?? Never crossed my mind. Glad you watched the vids. :)
copatriots
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 9:27pm@ 4
Thank you about your kind words. I actually do my best to represent and present Christ in love and humility. I don’t think we draw anyone to us or him by arguing among ourselves over issues that are not foundational core Christian beliefs (i.e. the resurrection, the virgin birth, Jesus is the one and only way, etc) In this instance, the knowledge of when the rapture occurs isn‘t going to prevent someone’s salvation or misguide a new believer if we present the many differing views. God gave us some mysteries to seek out to draw us closer to Him as we mature in our faith. To me, the timing of the rapture is one of them.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 9:30pmOh and meant to say, Blessing to you as well, especially as you seek to learn more about Him.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 10:55pm@ 4
Yikes……really messed that post up. I meant the “i.e.” items ARE foundational core beliefs to stand on. (My sentence was confusing.) And the timing of the rapture is NOT one of them.
Report Post »chazman
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 8:09am… to …
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 9:47amYo Copatriots:
Report Post »I love the bible verse that says,,, come let us reason together. I enjoy God’s creation and see myself sitting on a rock with Jesus by a stream in the woods doing this very thing. We should reason together, not argue. I stand in complete agreement. It saddens me when people use bible verses like bricks. I know your spirit so the type o was understood. I would respectfully disagree on the importance of this particular issue and the 6 days of Genesis, the reasons of which I have mentioned in other posts. Those reasons briefly being… Genesis – the emeny has focused his attacks here, he understands the importance of this battleground and the influence it has.Our schools are evidence of this. The timing of the rapture – those that believe they will be spared the trouble will not be prepaired for it. I think that you said in one of your posts to be prepaired for the worst, this is at the least a wise approach. Unfortunatly, that wisdom is not taught along side of this teaching. As in Proverbs, wisdom calls to me and you too seem to hear.God has called me to warn people… and this I will do.
May you continue to have you ear toward wisdom for blessing is it’s friend.
copatriots
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 11:09am@4
Good Morning! That is a beautiful picture you have of sitting on a rock by a stream with Jesus. I imagine He will have much to teach us all. There is a beautiful representation of heaven in the novel, “Safely Home”, written by Randy Alcorn. It is about the persecuted church in China but also shows the picture of a family of generational martyred Christians.
I do agree with you on the six days of Genesis. I do think Satan using stubborn humans are attacking every part of Christianity and the Bible. Satan has to come up with a counter point lie to every foundational truth to answer the questions of life.
As to the rapture, I see your point as to how those who believe in pre-trib would be disappointed. I hope their faith isn’t shattered over their own misunderstanding. My comment above is that I lean to mid-trip, hope for (as in “wouldn’t it be nice”) for pre-trib and will accept God‘s wisdom and plan if it’s at the end of trib. Because I am not dogmatic on this issue (I just don’t think we can know without question), my faith will surely not be shaken regardless when it happens. I referenced Rev 3:10 above where Jesus says “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.”
Running out of room here……a little more to follow, my friend.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 11:19amYo Krytonite:
Report Post »I did some quick homework. I did not want to wait too long to get back to you.I will be brief. I spoke with someone who knows this mans teaching very well. That, along with time of thinking and prior knowledge, I do have a concern here. The Jewish traditions are interesting, but we should be careful to not apply something where it does not belong. God‘s Word explains God’s Word. I believe he goes outside of this. When I was watching the video which was three parts, partway through the second video my spirit started to become bothered.We are to walk in the spirit and be sensitive to it’s promtings. Through many years I have learned to hear this leading, Having said that, this prompting can NEVER go against God’s Word. This would mean that I have heard incorrectly. (I have made mistakes). I also know without question that I am willing to be humbled by anyone if they have the truth. This is always my prayer. At this moment I stand where I stand and I have used verses of principle to defend (explain this), but I will do as I said and do some more checking. If you wish to have my e-mail address or you wish to provide yours I would be amenable to this. I do thankyou!
copatriots
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 12:10pm@4
It is difficult on a thread to condense any tribulation view. For me, it was an exhaustive 4 months study 4 years ago of Daniel and Revelation with continued research since. I believe there is dual references and dual prophecies throughout the end of Daniel meaning that part applied to what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD and part to end times. While Okie and I differ a tad on the dates for the order of the Temple to be built and leading up to Christ on earth, overall, I agree with Okie’s timeline noted above.
Adding to why I don’t think you can be certain of the timing of the rapture is that Revelation was written in figurative, symbolic and representative language. As such, I get very cautious when someone claims they have the definitive answer. I just came across this clip as a result of this discussion. I think it has it merit even if it doesn’t (nor could it) give all of the background. Mr. MacArthur’s position gives as sufficient argument for pre-trib as it does for mid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzsBC2yiqG8
I am still researching Okie’s position and yours of the final trump. Again, my exhaustive study was 4 years ago. I am now surrounded by my Bible, study guides and my personal notes. :-)
I truly appreciate your eagerness in seeking out God’s truth. I know you will be blessed as well as a blessing to others as a result.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 12:37pm@4truth2all
….those that believe they will be spared the trouble will not be prepaired for it. I think that you said in one of your posts to be prepaired for the worst, this is at the least a wise approach.
———
Ah, that’s the natural man/woman speaking! We are never “prepared” to be persecuted or martyred. Have you ever read Corrie Ten Boom’s book, “The Hiding Place?” Corrie tells how she once asked her father about that, and he, being a wise man, replied, “ ”Corrie when we travel by train when do I give you the train ticket? She answered, “Just before we get on the train.” He then said, “The Lord will give you the grace and strength and courage just when you need it.” (I’m quoting from the Internet, since I no longer have the book with me.)
If anyone thinks they can “prepare” for what is going to take place both spiritually and physically during the Tribulation, they are deluding themselves. In a way — although admittedly never to the same degree — it’s like people who say, “I hope I go to heaven, but I don’t know. I’ll just do my best to be good (THEIR way of “preparing” for eternity.) Those people don’t put their faith in God’s provision for salvation, either because they lack knowledge, or because they don’t really care or believe what the Word of God says about salvation.
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 12:44pmHere’s my point: God only gives grace for what He intended us to go through. If God wants us to go through his period of judgment/wrath on the earth, He will provide. If not, we will suffer great loss. I don’t mean those who convert during the tribulation. They will have God’s grace to overcome. But in our *current* dispensation of grace, we are to have FAITH before we ever see the provision. That is true wisdom in the sight of God. Preparing for “whatever may come” is the way of the carnal mind. Please don’t do that. Search the Scriptures and pray. Be diligent. Make sure you are grounded in FAITH, not circuumstances or suppositions.
I don’t know what will happen to those who refuse to take God’s way of escape from his day of wrath – and BTW, it is the nature of God to ALWAYS provide a way of escape from his judgment. But I can tell you that it *does* matter whether there is a pretrib Rapture or not. I view a post-trib Rapture as meaningless. If Jesus assembles the Church after the Tribulation, it doesn’t save us from anything different than eternal death, and as believers we learn about eternal life and resurrection the moment we get saved. It would be akin to Noah dying in the flood and then going to Paradise. So why would Paul bother to say anything about being caught up in the air? Why did Jesus warn about one man being taken and the other left in the field?
Report Post »kryptonite
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 12:50pm4truth2all (cont.)
Notice that Jesus compares that moment with what happened in the days of Noah, when SUDDEN DESTRUCTION came upon those who were not taken:
==> “…and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away….”
Paul, too, gives us that exact, same scenario in 1 Thess. 4: 13 – 5:3, when he describes the Rapture, and then goes on to say:
==> “For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, ‘There is peace and security,’ then sudden destruction will come upon them… and they will not escape.”
Rev. 1:3 says, “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.”
God bless.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 1:10pmGreetings Krypt,
I love Corrie’s book, story and impact for Christ. May we all be as spiritually strong as she was. The lesson of the train ticket is a wonderful reminder.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 2:27pmYo Kryptonite:
I respectfully and strongly disagree with what you say about the verses in Thess. PLEASE show me and exact time. They DO NOT do that. They give you the conditions and attitudes of the people at the TIME of Jesus return. In fact He likens it to a pregency and labor pains which is very interesting because a woman certainly knows she is pregnant by the time labor pains begin. She should not be caught off guard !!!
As in the days of Noah it was the same, they had warning, and then it rained!
Prove an exact time and I will buy and ship you a case of Rush’s tea. (my word is good)
I know of Corrie Ten Boom. I have read some and watched movies of what happened to her and her family. I strongly AGREE ( so were still good) with what you say about not being prepared. (spelled it right this time, so now you know I am not perfect). If you have been following all the posts I alluded to this in another and was going to add that but I felt that Copatriots understood this. I do not like to get to long winded and preachy. I know this first hand as I have on a smaller scale dealt with this, and that is exactly why I feel passionate about this. God is in control: as Jesus said…he will not lose any that are truly His. I am still with God because He has not given up on me. If not for Him I would have been long gone. Praise God !!!
I do not boast…. I will stand corrected before all men if I can be proven wrong, but neither will I move if not. Prove me wrong…..In l
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 3:01pmYo Copatriots:
Watched the video. I have watched huge hours of his teaching/preaching. He is very good at both. I will watch it again. I have considered and pondered my of those issues he brought up. He referenced the verses in Revelation you mentioned; my question is what is “that hour”. How much of a time frame is this. I will accept that I may not be right. I do not want to be foolish.
I can see you sitting with the mess of papers around you. I am not new to this. Please do not go out of your way on my account.
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 6, 2011 at 10:22amYo Copatriots;
Report Post »If you respond to previous post, would like to continue with a few things. I will not be bothersom. I would be willing to give you my e-mail. If this is ok let me know.
this post will soon be off the site…been my pleasure.
4truth2all
Posted on September 6, 2011 at 10:55amYo Kryptonite, Copatriots, Okie:
Report Post »Wanted to say thanks for the conversation. I enjoy being challenged. I would never want to lead another in the wrong direction. If possible I would invite yall to dinner….even Okie. Keep speaking the truth the best you know how. God will use all things to His glory, even our foolishness…..be humble…be blessed , In His Love
kryptonite
Posted on September 6, 2011 at 2:20pm@4truth2all
@4truth2all
I’m sorry if I sounded too preachy. You are right. We do not know the exact time of the pretrib Rapture. God the Father determines when the Son goes out for his Bride, as in Jewish weddings of Jesus’ time. We only see the SIGNS of increasing havoc on earth, and if you study the feasts, we know the SEASON will probably be Rosh Hashanah (Jesus was crucified at Passover and the Church was born at Pentecost). However, once we are raptured, we do know that the antichrist shows up, and seven and a half years later, we come back with the Lord to the earth. If you believe in post-trib, then you WILL know when the Rapture occurs. It will be seven years after the antichrist is manifested, and Jesus will not come as a thief in the night, because every eye shall see him. Jesus’ second coming will be full of glory. He will return as the Lion of Judah in fulfillment of God’s covenant with Israel to provide a conquering Messiah. But it will no longer the dispensation (fullness) of the Gentiles, which ends at the Rapture.
The signs and seasons are for believers. Unbelievers will be taken by surprise by the Tribulation, as in the days of Noah they were suddenly swept away by the flood. People who have rejected God will be judged.
Blessings to you et al.
Report Post »Copatriots, thanks for sharing.
kryptonite
Posted on September 6, 2011 at 3:19pmOops, seven years, not seven and a half. Some grammar errors in my comment too: ‘…will no longer be the dispensation…” It doesn’t matter. I always read for content, anyway.
I just realized that I skipped one of your comments. About Perry, I’ve been watching his ministry for years. He’s a man of God, just heavily attacked because of his pretrib teachings, and that is understandable. Perry is so anointed, he was teaching about the coming Islamic caliphate (not in those political terms) LONG before anyone even knew Islam was a threat. He pointed me in the right direction — which is what a good teacher does — and I am grateful for that. Ironically, those “great” prophecy teachers who criticized him then are now teaching the same thing.
Looking at the Jewish feasts (for typology) and their traditions (for context to interpret the parables) is biblical, and also makes sense to any good reader. Jesus was a Jew and the Bible was written by Jews. As you know, God’s plan for Israel comes full circle in the Book of Revelation, and if you read Hebrews it is very clear that all that was commanded or revealed by God in the OT revolved around the coming Messiah. People like Okie, who reject Israel or how God interwove the Old and New Covenants, miss out on the full revelation of God’s Word.
Thanks again for your comments.
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 6, 2011 at 3:42pmGreat conversation and I do appreciate all thoughts.
@Kryptonite
I still do not understand where you get 7 years, especially is Post Trib. 7 years and tribulation is not found in the Bible and I’m humbly asking for a simple understanding of where your view got 7 years.
If I do understand correct, the 7 years is all based around Daniels last week of the 70 correct? And that Jesus didn’t stop the offering and oblation and make Jerusalem desolate for the spreading of abominations but anti-Christ will in future? This is the foundation of 7 years of tribulation, right, whether Pre, mid, post?
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 6, 2011 at 7:40pm@Kryptonite
I really wish you would accept the offer to converse with me for truth. If Daniel 9′s last week is your only verse of 7 years of tribulation then say so to be honest.
I honestly believe you know in your heart the foundation of 7 year tribulation is flawed and refuse to face it. Understand me bringing this truth or challenging your view isn’t for myself ego, it is to help you and so that you can share in the truth.
Fact: Daniel 9′s last week of 70 is the only verse used for 7 years tribulation. No other verse exists.
Fact: it was always taught that this last week was fulfilled by Jesus’s resurrection until the mid 19th Century.
Fact: Achor is Hebrew for after, not during or at the end. After the 62 week is how the verse says it and when the messiah is cut off. If it is after, achor, it can not be of the 62. This disproves the 7 year tribulation alone and that the weeks are completed.
Again, being someone who loves Jesus as you say you do, being as well versed and studied on God’s Word, I ask you to face these hards truths and see them. Especially if your seeking truth and standing for truth.
If you can disprove those 3 facts, I’ll concede to your view and being correct. Good luck…
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 6, 2011 at 9:51pm@ Kryptonite, 4Truth & Okie,
Sorry all……got busy yesterday. Actually spent far more time online than I intended. Always good to be immersed in God’s word though. My quiet was interrupted and never really had a chance to come back. Busy rest of week so I may have to catch you another time.
@ 4, happy to answer questions from this thread. I’ll try to check for your email address. I’m never comfortable giving mine publicly.
@ Okie, we see so many things differently. I am trying to save your posts but can’t imagine having time to go through the fundamental differences in our beliefs. One example…..like you suggest Kryptonite does, I also believe to be “absent from the body is to be present with the Lord’. And I do believe that means immediately. If you and I don’t even agree on that, we would have a whole lot of discussion before we ever got to end times and rapture. By no means am I saying I am right, just that our beliefs are so far apart that it would almost require weeks of discussion, actual conversation, prayer and study. Wish I had the time. : )
@ Kryptonite, was a pleasure. I appreciate and agree with so many of your views, not the least of which that God has a plan for the Jews in the tribulation.
See you all on another thread. Many Blessing to you all!
Report Post »Okie from Muskogee
Posted on September 6, 2011 at 10:25pm@CoPatriot
I very much appreciate our dialogue. It is our duty to do so. Seek truth.
The base difference in the view I keep and the views you keep is all built upon Daniel 9:26. This is the only verse upon which 7 years of tribulation is built. Without this one verse interpreted as you see, the whole theory falls apart. After 62, not during or at the end. After is in the 70th week. Question with boldness this one verse and God will show you truth.
As for death, the Bible is full of verses telling us what it is and what happens. If we go to God at death, you can not explain who is resurrected. Question with boldness.
Whether agreeing or disagreeing, I enjoyed the opportunity to talk about God together. I hope we can in the future as well. Thank you so much.
Report Post »cemerius
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:00pmLibs Progressives and Athiests continue to destroy Christianity….sorry folks THE ONLY ppl upset about the portrayal of Christianity are the F’ing muslims!!!! Gotta love when you PC yourself straight to a beheading!!! I am NOT a bible thumping Christian but I am feeling enough is enogh!!! Tell me athiests tell me libs and tell me progressives WHAT part of the 10 Commandments do you NOT like????
Report Post »Ranubis
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:14pmI’m not an atheists, but my guess would be all of them.
Report Post »conservative510
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:15pmSo you think it’s OK to murder steal and lie?! You’re an idiot!
Report Post »chazman
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 5:37am… not a good thought …
Report Post »survivorseed
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 11:03pmI’m guessing neither you or your servants or your donkey work on the sabbath then Blazers, after all, that is a commandment and we don’t want to annoy the lord.
Report Post »What about the part where god states he is a jealous god who punishes children for the iniquity of parents to the third and fourth generation? Sounds like an evil god to me, and isn’t envy one of the seven deadly sins anyway.
We’re only here for a short time, why waste your one shot pandering to a jealous domineering boss.
4truth2all
Posted on September 5, 2011 at 10:22pmYo survivorseed:
I don’t work on Sundays (Donkey is a symbol for work.)
You completely butcher the meaning. I suspect I‘m wasting my time here but I’ll take a chance.
Jealous God…means he is protective, like a husband for his wife, like a momma bear for her cubs.
3-4th generation. First off does not say that. but what it means is the son learns the sins of the father and so on. Example: a father that is alcohalic has a son that is alcohalic. Not always, but many times. Science lies and says it’s in the genes. 2000yrs ago the bible understood this.
Christ died on a cross was beaten beyond human recognition for you so you can be freed (saved) from hell. That does not sound domineering to me. If your going to mock God at least make sure that you know what your talking about.
Report Post »Chappy123
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:55pmThere go the libs again! Just like cockroaches spreading filth across the lands. Why cant they just mind their own damn business!
Report Post »Infidel49
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:16pmLibs, aside from having a mental disorder live by this creed. If I don’t like it, nobody else should have it either. An example of this is, oh, I don’t like guns, they are dangerous, they scare me. so they will lie, cheat and steal to make sure no one else has them. Even though it is a Constitutional Right, they will tell you guns kill, when the facts will prove otherwise. Criminals kill, not law abiding citizens who need them to protect themselves from the criminals who have them.. Then we have the other side of the coin. Oh, isn’t it wonderful that gays and lesbians can get married? When the majority of Americans VOTED NO. It is crammed down our necks because THEY want it. See my point?
Report Post »conservative510
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:18pmIf they take everyone’s guns away, they should take everyone’s cars away too. They are dangerous, they kill people, people drive drunk and commit crimes with them. Oh wait! I forgot. The libs DO want to do that.
Report Post »richard bensen
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:55pmWhy can’t people see that being politically correct is such a bad idea…One wonders who they are trying to appease here.If there are that many non believers then its the fault of the Government.In trying to please so many,it all starts with the family.So many brainwashed so few believers.Wake up,look around and you will finally realize that Christ is the answer.The Bible is the true word of God passed down through losers and common folk.You may say that the bible contradicts it‘s self but then you don’t understand the full content.It seems that everyone who has power bends to the will of a few.Good luck ,and how is that working out…mmmmmm.
Report Post »Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:51pmThe Progressives have been just as active in Australia as they are here in the US, and engaged in the same form of national transformation. One more step forward in their agenda to reforge the world, and they are also sealing their own fates; God is not to be mocked, for in the end He wins out.
Report Post »MODEL82A1
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:48pmIt’s Australia, who cares. We have enough to worry about here.
Report Post »vivrobbins
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 4:32pmI care.
Report Post »NewLife56
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:47pmIsn’t it funny that a little over 2000 years ago, Jesus warned us this would happen, even before he was known to humanity? The time is almost here, brothers and sisters, get ready to go home.
Report Post »The Divided States of America
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:45pmThe relinquishment of truth cannot stop the truth. By all means have your pc ways you fools and turn your back on Jesus…it is a novel idea and yet it only redefines the fact that atheists and carnal minded persons fear the truth, so they can barter with themselves and fancy their reflection in the mirror of lies. God sits calmly in the heavens. He says in proverbs “I will laugh at your calamity. I will make fun of you when panic strikes you.”
Report Post »4truth2all
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 5:09pmJust reading Proverbs.. those verses are sad and scary.
Report Post »It should drive us to get the Word out.. lovingly
The Divided States of America
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 9:46pmGod can not be mocked…he is in total control of all things..past present and future !!! So many souls lust after pride and it will be their undoing…so sad and yes spread the word that God is love and wants to bring healing to each man, woman and child !!!
Report Post »Ari Ben TZion
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:45pmWell, just so that no one is offended I think we should use Mohammed as the period reference instead.
So, for example: instead of using BCE and/or CE, we could use BP and/or AP.
BP = Before Pedophile
AP = After Pedophile
See, everyone is happy now.
Report Post »biohazard23
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:49pmLove it!!!!
Report Post »YepImaConservative
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:58pmBwahahahahahahahahahaha…. POYFECT!
Report Post »El Pistoffo
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:06pmHahahaha, good one. I like it.
Report Post »crackerone
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:38pmNailed it!
Report Post »Infidel49
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 2:25pmLmao
Report Post »Elena2010
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 3:02pmCareful — you may get just that! Everyone kowtows to the muslims so as not to offend lest they riot and burn the whole city down around us all.
Their chronology is AH — after Mohammad got booted out of Mecca and became just another warlord in Yathrib (now Medina)!
Report Post »webpreacher
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 3:10pmThat’s right ARI BEN TZION, the Muslims follow and exhort a known pedophile, today, they would stone one who was caught rapping little girls as Muhammad did. In America he (Muhammad) would be either in prison, and or institutionalized, for his crimes against society. End of Story !
good post ARI BEN
Report Post »Rational Man
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:45pmBesides all the spiritual and religious aspects, Jesus Christ is the most famous person that ever lived.
Report Post »More people in the world have, at least, heard of Jesus more than any other person in the history of mankind. Like Him or not! The influence of Jesus, through Christianity, has done more to shape the world we live in than anyone else in history. Not to mention the fact it has all been for the good of mankind. Even the freedom to try to erase Jesus from history is a direct result of His influence through Christianity and judeo-christian values. Like those terrible 10 simple commandments, for instance, that some people want nothing to do with. Like it or not, civilization and the success there of, is sustained by just those 10 rules to live by. An atheist will say, “it is wrong to kill someone”. But how did he come to that conclusion? Even an atheist is more ‘religious’ than he even knows.
They can’t erase Jesus from history, because He IS history. Alpha and Omega! He has always been, and always will be, forever without end……………Amen!
copatriots
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:07pmAmen!
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on September 4, 2011 at 11:56amI really liked that!
Report Post »paperpushermj
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:41pmThis is a temporary condition by people without faith soon to be replaced with Islamic Holidays by people with Faith.
Report Post »netmail
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:41pmSo what country in the world has NOT bowed down to atheists, radicals and leftist idealogs?
Report Post »jb.kibs
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:44pmAs for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Report Post »82dAirborne
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:45pmIsrael & The Vatican.
Report Post »82dAirborne
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:46pmOr ANY Muslim country.
Report Post »copatriots
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:05pm@82nd
I wish you weren’t but you are wrong about Israel. Sadly, they are also over-run with Libs. I pray they open their eyes and return to the God of their Fathers and also for them to accept Christ. But we know from Revelation that their time has not yet come.
Report Post »abbygirl1994
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:41pmI feel very sorry for the children who haven’t the choice.. when you shut out God and His Son, then its trouble from here on out.. thats why were in the mess were in here in the USA. He has warned us!! But no one is listening. God help us!
Report Post »Infidel49
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:59pmYou are 100% correct. But remember that God will save everyone from His wrath, here on earth, if He could find one “just man.” He will reserve His judgement face to face. Their are a lot of good people in this world, but we don‘t hear about them because it doesn’t sell. Look at all the reality shows, devoid of morals and values. Some people would debase themselves so they could get on TV. Bring back the days of ArchBishop Fulton Sheen, who was spiritually ahead of his time. I could listen to him all day long, a true saint of our time.
Report Post »webpreacher
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:35pmTo infidel49,
There are NONE good, no not one,; (Romans 3:12)
There are NONE that are just / righteous; (Romans 3:10)
where in the Bible does it say, God will save everyone here on earth, as you have claimed ?
There are people in Hell’s Flames right now, alive, and some have been there for thousands of years, and will be for ALL eternity, and there are more heading there every single day upon their death, which is of the flesh, but are very much alive and aware of there desperate estate.
_______________________________________________
Get on board the ship of Salvation, which is Christ Jesus, God‘s provision for deliverance from Hell’s flames, and eternal loss. Enter in now before the door is shut, and the age of Grace comes to a close..
Receive Christ and be saved, reject Him and you will suffer eternal loss.,
Just so you’ll know,
Report Post »Bruce // servant to King Jesus,,,coming back to take up His Church..“THE BORN AGAIN”
pollyanna
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 7:02pmThis is so true ABBYGIRL1994. Our Father has a plan. He IS in control…. We must bide our time.
Report Post »IMCHRISTIAN
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:37pmI am troubled with what is going on around the world. History is being distorted even in schools. I am respectful of other religion but I also want them to respect mine. Christians have been around for a long time and will continue forever . I do believe good will defeat evil in the long run as Love will defeat hate. May you all have a long, loving, peaceful life. God be with you always. In Jesus name I pray amen.
Report Post »rockstone
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:37pmAmazing….. Look it.. I‘m not a Christian and I’m offended. Someone tell me..how in the hell can you teach children about the history of the world and the story of man without teaching who Christ was and the great legacy he left?
Report Post »Lucy Larue
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 5:03pmROCKSTONE,
Well..,you cannot teach the children about history without Jesus..
Progressives the world over,to include Australia, do not care. They distort the truth.They distort history.
They care about control.Progressives operate on the side of EVIL.
There are two forces on this Earth…,GOOD and EVIL. There are degrees..,but the choice is either GOOD or EVIL! Where do you stand?
I thought Australia would have the B#lls to choose GOOD!
Report Post »jb.kibs
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:35pmbe careful what you wish for…. because without Christians. noone would be free. they are the only ones who proclaim that mankind has freewill which is given to us by GOD and that no mortal man can take that away. noone else has any grounds to claim their rights come from anywhere other than stronger men… “nature” grants no rights… nature = neutral. nature is just the laws in which we exist. much like a programming framework. so what grounds would anyone have to claim their rights come from anywhere other than the strongest control freak? like i said… careful what you wish for… you are setting yourself up for the full slavery package.
Report Post »rockstone
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:38pmExactly…..
Report Post »SamIamTwo
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:34pmThe man that set the world on fire for God for over 2k years and they do this? Silly people.
Who next, Gandhi? I doubt it…
This is what happens when you let the minority lead the majority. JIMHO
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:31pmGet back to me when you know.
Report Post »kentuckypatriot
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:06pmI see 11 disciples. Mary Magdellan was not a disciple.
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:38pmNo still incorrect ,if you do figure out, please let us know, and keep it to yourself ,for he may come around knocking at your door.
Report Post »webpreacher
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 3:34pmKENTUCKEYPATRIOT, I’m not sure what you are responding to, or who, when you declared in a reply post, that you see 11 disciples, and Mary Magdelen was not one of them. Actuall she was, and so am I, along with millions of other who were, and are, FOLLOWERS, of the teachings of Christ Jesus. That is the definition of a disciple, one who is under the teachings of another, and in this case is Christains Following the teachings of Christ, and teaching others the same. I think you may have meant to say, / or was referring to “APOSTLES”, of which there are none today, but there were 12 appointed by Jesus Himself, of which Paul the apostles being the last appointed ! The requirements to have been an apostles is given in the book of the Acts. chapter 1: 12-26, it is one who has had direct physical contact with the LORD Jesus, that is appointed the office of Apostleship !!
Look it up, Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workmen that needeth not to be ashamed, rightfully dividing the word of Truth, 2 Timothy 2 :15.
Those today who lay claim to be an apostle are in error of the Scriptures, unless of course they can show of a truth by way of evidence, that Jesus Himself appeard to them and appointed them this Holy Office, Oh, and this also, they must be Hebrew, a decendant of one of the “12” Tribes of Israel, as all the New Testament Aposltes were !
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just so you’ll know ! Truth holds t
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:30pmCan you tell?
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:29pmThere is only one person missing in the painting.
Report Post »KOCHLEFFEL
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:39pmWho’s missing? I see all twelve and two are giving Jesus the finger.
Report Post »Da Kingfish
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 1:48pmThat’s only temporary, Obumbler is having it redone with his primates sitting around a beer summit.
Report Post »Ironmaan
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:23pmIncredibly stupid. No matter what your position on religion, there is no question that Christ is part of history and so should be included. Then again, history is continually being re-created and adjusted by the statists. http://guerillatics.com
Report Post »SPOT_OF_TEA
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:35pmDon’t you remember Mrs Obama say that we need to change our history?She just didnt make that up off the top of her head.Its part of the ideology the left has bought into and this is another stepping stone toward that goal.
Report Post »jb.kibs
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:37pmexactly… plus, christians are the ones who set people free from bondage over and over again…
Report Post »kentuckypatriot
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:22pmI thought I heard it all until now. I sure hope the Christian Australians put up one hell of a fight. They try and please the non Christians so as not to be “ offended”, where are the rights of Christians? Oh, we don’t have any. BS!!
Report Post »bobbyjoe
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:16pmJust another attempt to remove CHRIST form our lives. Not working here!
Report Post »NOBALONEY
Posted on September 3, 2011 at 12:15pmIdiots!
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