Faith

Vatican Excommunicates Chinese Bishop Ordained Without Papal Approval

VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican said Saturday that a bishop ordained in China this week without papal approval had acted in defiance of the Holy See and was automatically excommunicated.

Amid a deepening standoff with Beijing, the Vatican issued a strongly worded statement denouncing the ordination and said Pope Benedict XVI “once again deplores the manner in which the church in China is being treated.”

Beijing severed ties with the Holy See in 1951 after the Communist Party took power and set up its own church outside the pope’s authority. The Blaze reported last month on China‘s stated intentions to continue to ordain their own bishops despite the Vatican’s insistence that it has the sole power to do so.

Faithful on the mainland are allowed to worship only with the state-sanctioned church, which recognizes the pope as a spiritual leader but rejects his authority to appoint priests and bishops. A thriving underground following remains loyal to the Vatican.

The Vatican statement said Chinese Catholics have a right to “act freely, following their consciences and remaining faithful” to the pope.

The Rev. Joseph Huang Bingzhang was consecrated as bishop of Shantou by China’s state-controlled Catholic church on Thursday. It was China‘s third such ordination without the pope’s approval in eight months.

The Vatican insists that the pope has the sole right to appoint bishops. Beijing’s Communist leaders see that position as foreign interference.

The bishop “had been informed some time ago that he could not be approved by the Holy See as an episcopal candidate.”

“Reverend Huang had been asked on numerous occasions not to accept episcopal ordination,” the statement went on to say. The Holy See does not recognize him.

The Vatican accused Chinese authorities of forcing bishops to attend the ordination ceremony against their will, saying they had “offered various forms of resistance,” though the statement did not elaborate.

The issue of who should appoint bishops has proven a key obstacle to Benedict’s goal of improving relations with China. An agreement that gave the Vatican an opportunity to give its tacit approval on new bishops broke down last year.

A top Vatican adviser, Hong Kong Cardinal Joseph Zen, has called the current standoff a “war” and urged the Holy See to take a harder line against China’s ordinations of bishops.

Comments (97)

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  • cnerd
    Posted on July 17, 2011 at 12:02am

    Another attempt by the Chinese to co opt and use the Christian belief system to control the masses.

    Report Post » cnerd  
    • MR_ANDERSON
      Posted on July 17, 2011 at 10:14pm

      Or is this an example of Catholic Church trying to ensure that its power is higher than that of governments, and an attempt to control yet another country.

      Report Post »  
  • jordy2010
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:27pm

    @Americansince1619
    Don’t forget about the part where Malachi Martin was screwing the wife of a Vatican ambassador for which he was fired from his position and banished from the Vatican…….. they din’t mention that on the program Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell……where Malachy Martin was a favorite host and was known as an ”Exorcist”…………which he never was……… Martin was in exile in the US and no longer recognized by the Vatican

    Report Post » jordy2010  
  • MUDFLAPS
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:00pm

    Why the heck does PayPal have to approve this anyway?

    Report Post »  
  • Gamaliel
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:21pm

    TO ALL THE CATHOLIC BASHERS COMMENTING ON THIS STORY – Wow, is it wrong to presume that Blaze readers also listen to Glenn Beck? If the discussion that has transpired here is reflective of the state of conservativism and Christianianity in the USA God help us! We better be prepared to “join or die”. Stand with each other on the things we DO agree on and RESPECTFULLY discuss our differences. That SHOULD be what distinguishes us as Americans from the evil alliance that threatens our nation. The way people are bashing the Catholic Church makes it look like they’d be quite happy to let Catholics be dragged to the interment camps. Which other denominations do you also so despise?

    Report Post »  
    • wamj2008
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:50pm

      Satan has always worked his hardest against the Catholic Church. I don’t expect that to ever change.

      Report Post »  
    • mycomet123
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:09pm

      Sometimes I wonder if the Blazes may objective on the faith section is to trash the Catholic church? SAD!

      Report Post »  
    • Railroad Mike
      Posted on July 17, 2011 at 4:58pm

      Gamaliel, The Protestant churches were just as bad as the Catholics in Germany. As for Catholics being dragged to interment camps, now that might no be a bad idea for the priests. At least then the little Catholic children would be safe. I will not comment anymore on this. Enough already.

      Report Post »  
    • Ojebuss
      Posted on July 18, 2011 at 12:23pm

      Well you know what Mother Mary said in 1982 in Medjugorje: “Excuse me for this, but you must realize that Satan exists. One day he appeared before the throne of God and asked permission to submit the Church to a period of trial. God gave him permission to try the Church for one century.” http://www.medjugorje.org/overview.htm

      Report Post » Ojebuss  
    • ChristianLayman
      Posted on July 25, 2011 at 8:25pm

      What you have to understand Gamaliel, is that Fundamentalism is a cult. The Westboro ‘Baptist’ Heretics are but an example of this as are the Harold Camping followers, or the KKK for a more extreme one. Fundies not only hate Catholics, but they despise other Protestants such as Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, and those are just the Christians! Their whack-job nuttery in Bible IDOLATRY is probably among others, a leading cause for New Atheism, since when the Heathen wakes up from the brainwashing they reject ALL Religion because Fundies quite frankly have no idea what the Hell their talking about. Mainline Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox just get lumped in unfortunatly.

      Report Post »  
  • woemcat
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:06pm

    yawn.

    Report Post » woemcat  
  • Railroad Mike
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 8:06pm

    Pennswoods, just Google Catholic Nazi’s and read for yourself. Josef Gobbels, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Klaus Barbie, Julius Streicher and Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen were all devout Catholics. Google The Reichskonkordat. Hitler was in fact photographed attending Whilemshaven church in 1931. You are in error when you say he never attended after age 16. The list of those Nazi Catholics in opposition to Hitler while noble was very short indeed. Its just a sad fact. The Catholic church in Germany was in bed with Hitler before,during and even after the war as they help get the Nazi’s to the safety of South America.

    Report Post »  
    • TulsaYeeHaw
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:01pm

      Yeah, cuz devout catholics go carry out genocide all the time, don’t they?

      Report Post »  
    • jordy2010
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:08pm

      @ Railroad Mike

      Stop trying to railroad this site with your lies…….. Adolf Hitler may have been baptized as a Catholic when he was a baby but he didn’t practice Catholicism……..Hitler was into the Occult…..like many nazis…….. and calling Catholic nazis is not appreciated………even by this agnostic……..and one of the main reasons I’m an agnostic is because of the pettiness of many religious practioners……

      Report Post » jordy2010  
    • JEANNIEMAC
      Posted on July 18, 2011 at 11:05am

      The Nazi “Catholics” were not true Catholics. They were renegade Catholics who sold their souls to the devil in return for power.

      Report Post »  
  • wamj2008
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 8:03pm

    Until Protestants stop spreading the anti-Biblical claptrap of “sola scriptura,” they don’t really have a leg to stand on when it comes to quoting and interpreting scripture!

    Report Post »  
    • woemcat
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:19pm

      actually, i’m into prima scriptura. God said He is revealed through His creation, and although the 66 books of the Bible are all we need, I don‘t believe that’s EVERYTHING that’s been written (I do believe there are things that have been lost or rejected that perhaps should have been included in cannon). so, this is one Christian who doesn’t go for sola scriptura.

      (no, i don’t believe in apostolic succession or papal ex cathedra, nor catholic “cannon law.”)

      Report Post » woemcat  
    • JGraham III
      Posted on July 17, 2011 at 6:52pm

      I f you can find it, there is a book called “The Witness of the Stars” by EW Bullinger. It is rather dry reading but puts forth quite well the assertion that God “wrote” His plan of salvation in the names and arrangement of the Constellations and the primary star names within them. Astrology is a perversion of this. Much of the ‘common understanding’ of what God wrote there has been lost and in some opinions unnecessary as we now have a written record of what God’s plans for mankind are. Nevertheless, it illuminates much scripture especially Revelation 12.

      Report Post »  
    • Scooter7
      Posted on July 18, 2011 at 2:56pm

      As one who was Raised Catholic, attended Catholic grade school, was an altar boy (unmolested :-)…..I’d just LOVE to see the Scriptures you back up your “anti-biblical” comment with!! Please engage me on this!!

      Report Post »  
  • Injunator
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 5:17pm

    1 Peter 4:17-19 . . . this is what is happening now- molestations, excommunications, big money settlements out of court to kids, but- it is the sexual sins that still be, are the result of; this is what God tells ALL of in His, Revelation 18- Isaiah is beginning to occur: you see this and hear it on all television and radiio broadcasts, and meybe seen in your communities around you ! take heed and move towards the ways of God !

    Report Post »  
  • Railroad Mike
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 5:15pm

    Its to bad that the Catholic church never did excommunicate Adolph Hitler and his henchmen for the second world war and the murder of six million Jews. Hitler and many of the killers were Catholic. Why will the church not excommunicate them posthumously? This Chinese Bishop is a very small fry compared to what those Catholic Nazi’s did.

    Report Post »  
    • pennswoods
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 5:46pm

      Railroad Mike. Adolf Hitler ceased to practice his Catholic faith as a teenager. He abandoned the Church and there is no record of his ever attending Mass after he was 16. Hitler over and over stated he hated the Catholic Church as an international moral force he could never control. He thought Jesus was “effeminate and weak”. Why don’t you mention devout anti Nazi Roman Catholic Germans like Count Klaus Von Stauffenberg who planted the bomb that almost klled Hitler on July 20, 1944? There is a long list of German Catholics who opposed the Nazi’s starting with The Archbishop of Munich Cardinal Faulhaber and the Catholic Bishop of Munster and many many others.

      Report Post »  
    • avenger
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 6:02pm

      dude..the church cannot excommunicate evil per se.hitler was not catholic ,on the other hand lets start with Obama…

      Report Post »  
    • jordy2010
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:14pm

      @ Railroad Mike
      Just because the communist academics who manage wikipedia write things in there….you don’t have to believe everything they say……. all those nazis were NOT devout Catholics.but were into the Occult………..and many Catholics perished in the nazi concentration camps………. and I don‘t believe for one second that you’re a Christian…you’re a marxist atheist TROLL who is using this occasion to spill your venom on all Catholics……. go back to the Huff n Puff where you belong……

      Report Post » jordy2010  
  • 0dysseus
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 4:12pm

    Glad to hear of any operative church in China.
    Guess they have the right to their own reformation, huh?

    Report Post »  
    • Islesfordian
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 5:12pm

      An atheistic communist government controlling the leadership in a church you call a “reformation? As much as I disapprove of the way Henry VIII used the church as his royal possession at least he was a believer and he supported reformers within the church who wanted a reformation. The Chineese government does not want Christianity widely spread.

      Report Post » Islesfordian  
    • 0dysseus
      Posted on July 17, 2011 at 6:09am

      The Chinese governments willingness to tolerate a church, any church, is a step away from atheism. Certainly they have come to embrace free market capitalism to the extent that it has benefitted their economy. Perhaps they are now exploring the benefits of religion? Perhaps progressive revelation will slowly become manifest to them?

      Report Post »  
    • Islesfordian
      Posted on July 17, 2011 at 7:14am

      Perhaps you are not aware of the oppression of independent churches in China. They are only tolerant of churches that are subservient to the state. The Soviet Union “tolerated” the Russian Orthodox Church as well, installing many KGB agents as church leaders to keep tabs on the people.

      Report Post » Islesfordian  
  • Lynne Joy
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 3:36pm

    Wait a minute, I thought we were picking on Mormons this year.

    Report Post »  
    • mils
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 8:44pm

      oh heck..pick on anyone that doesn’t exactly follow the “stated” narrowminded view of normal. Religion is any easy thing for “know it alls” to be hall monitors to jump on..’
      And in China…if you cannot follow the rules of the church..why even bother? go off..create your own..quit the crap…follow the rules of ANY church, religion you belong to or..leave..

      Report Post »  
  • GWH
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 1:28pm

    Matthew 16: 18-19.
    This entire situation smacks of Henry VIII’s domination of the Catholic Church in England rather then then the Catholic Church being directly responsible to Rome!
    Rome calls the shots, not Beijing!

    Report Post » GWH  
    • NotFooled
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 3:42pm

      Exactly, most Christians have no idea of the history that split the Catholic and Protestant Church. If they even care. All feral Christian beliefs splintered from the one Catholic Church. They turn their backs on Jesus and the authority his Church. Most don’t even realize it or they are taught not to recognize it through the false teachings of manmade religions, and atheists.

      Report Post » NotFooled  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 5:20pm

      @Notfooled

      No one is fooled by your bull crap. Your lying and falsely representing Jesus. 

      Reformation happened because Catholics killed millions of Christians who refused to bow to the Pope, the guy calling himself Christ on Earth, blasphemy! 

      The Catholic Church is a false teaching religion that is Anti-Christ. Truth hurts but it’s truth and has no agenda. 

      Worship Jesus, not some man pope made of lies. 

      Good for China. Tell the Catholics to take a hike! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Islesfordian
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 5:21pm

      As an Anglican (though one who thinks the state domination of the church was wrong from hte beginning) I have to say that this is much worse than Henry VIII, for he at least was a Christian. The Chineese government is atheist. That’s a big difference in my book.

      Report Post » Islesfordian  
    • Aidan MacAnBhaird
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 6:25pm

      @GWH: In the Roman Catholic Church, the Vatican calls the shots, but they are not the authority over other Catholics.
      @Notfooled: Please study some more. There were 12 deciples sent out, plus numerous pairs, to spread the word of God after Christ’s ascention. Thomas ended up in and around India. One can still see his handiwork today. Mark went to Egypt & Ethopia. Those Christian communities are thriving today. And the reformation occurred not because man desired to usurp the will of God, but because man desired to read the Bible for himself, not be taxed to povertry by the Church, and have a direct relationship with God without the requirement of church intervention.
      I support the Chinese people, but can not see where the government controlling the church could ever lead to God’s work. Looks more like a fearful government attempting to put God in a box. Can’t wait to watch His will prevail. :-)

      Report Post » Aidan MacAnBhaird  
    • NotFooled
      Posted on July 17, 2011 at 1:28am

      Must of hit a nerve AKA the TRUTH.. Learn my faith LMAO. Rediscover yours.- Vivat JESUS !

      Report Post » NotFooled  
    • NotFooled
      Posted on July 18, 2011 at 9:58am

      I bet a $1 that Okie is an Athiest. LOLOL

      Report Post » NotFooled  
  • Applehead
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 12:25pm

    I’m a devout Catholic and truly believe in church teaching. As far as confession goes, if you confess the same sins over and over and make no attempt to change your ways you will probably pay the price. God, knows where your heart is and we will all be judged fairly. All forms of Christianity have differences in teaching but we are all Christians with valid baptism. I have total love and respect for all my mainstream protestant brothers and sisters. God loves us all. We will all be on the same when we enter the kingdom of Heaven. We must respect each other and our differences and trust in God because he again knows where our heart is and we will all do as Jesus says in Heaven. I like many other devout church going Catholics get sick seeing politicians and Catholics in name only going against church teaching!!! If you will notice that there is a big difference in church going Catholics and our Protestant brothers and non church going Catholics and Christians. We all have members who aren‘t sincere in their beliefs and most don’t go to church. We will all be judged fairly when we meet the Lord!

    Report Post »  
  • BeingThere
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 12:12pm

    WTF? Why do they need Paypal approval?

    Report Post » BeingThere  
    • republapig
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 1:28pm

      My question also. Maybe the chinese bishop should become a protestant. I have read the bible all the way through, and many parts of it 2-3 times. I have never seen anything that gives the pope the right to say who gets to go to heaven. In fact, is says “call no man father”, and “thou shall not make any graven images”. The churches are full of statues and they call priests “father”. I could go on & on.

      Report Post » republapig  
    • scootyscot
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 1:44pm

      It’s called organization. The Church is not a fan of unorganized religion, but a fan of unification.

      As for the reply w “call no man father”, Christ didn‘t mean literally don’t call anyone “father”. He simply meant don’t put anyone above God the Father of all. Christ elsewhere called Abraham “father” and St. Paul in his writings said he was the spiritual “father” of those he was writing to (and said to do as he did) – 1 Cor 4:15.

      The New Testament clearly shows authority given to Peter and the Apostles and them having power to appoint new leaders. Only the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church has Apostolic Succession w their history being traced all the way back to the Apostles (and thus having the valid Sacraments as well).

      Report Post »  
    • TheGreyPiper
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 2:03pm

      Who said what goes in that Bible of yours?

      Report Post » TheGreyPiper  
    • herkamer83
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 4:42pm

      “Call no man father” refers to Caesar wanting to be called “The Father” and making himself God. One must look at the verse in context with the time. Priests are called Father because they are the examples of Jesus Christ on Earth, sent forth by his command through the creation of the Church. As for the statues, those are Saints that are venerated and not worshiped.

      Report Post »  
  • saranda
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 12:08pm

    Another day, another chance to attack the Catholic church. The “christians” on this site are so predictable.
    Patriots my ass. Christians my ass.

    Report Post »  
    • TheGreyPiper
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 2:06pm

      I agree, I dread any headline here with “Catholic” in it because I know it’s going to turn into a sewer of ignorant and spiteful Catholic-hating. BTW, I’m Orthodox, not Catholic, but definitely more in tune with Rome than Geneva (or London.) Also, I‘m sure it’s only their ignorance of it that keeps most of these folks from hating Orthodoxy as much as Catholicism.

      Report Post » TheGreyPiper  
  • Greenwood
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 12:07pm

    MYSTERY……….Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots……….Revelation 17:5

    Report Post » Greenwood  
    • JGraham III
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 1:05pm

      All churches, Roman Catholic or otherwise would do well to check to see if “mystery Babylon” hasn’t been surrepticiously placed in their midst. (hint: it has been…) Much of protestant ‘faith and practice’ is still about 70% “roman catholic” in its nature and structure. Several doctrines of protestant churches are virtually the same as their R/C predecessors. I can understand the practice of excommunication (R/C) and disfellowshipping (protestant) because the Word says to have no company with those who cause divisions. I was the victim of “mark and avoid” once in my not too recent past, but that was because when the leadership was confronted with the error of their “faith and practice”, their response was to give me and my wife the “left foot of Christian fellowship” as we called it. The Enemy has been wildly successful in hampering the strength and power of the Christian (universal/ catholic) Church because of the innumerable divisions that have arisen over arguing about words to no profit. We should pray for our Christian brethren in China; they are praying for us. The Faith ever has been refined under the heel of persecution because it separates those who are committed from those who only play at being “christian”. God forbid that serious persecution comes to America, but I think any with eyes to see realize it has already begun. A little bit at a time we are being hemmed in. The best thing to do is go and speak; it‘s the one thing the devil doesn’t want

      Report Post »  
    • TheGreyPiper
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 2:07pm

      Leave your mom out of this.

      Report Post » TheGreyPiper  
  • bigfatslob
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:50am

    Being a staunch American conservative & Vietnam veteran , I’ve had a change in recent years on my feeling about chins. I looked more closely @ China after I took a bride from Taiwan. China today is NOT Chairman Mou‘s China much as America is certainly not Washington’s America or even Ike’s America. America is being destroyed by progressives, we are loosing the right to practice our own religions dailey as government brainwashes our youth more each day. To my delight, China is moving in the opposite direction and in some ways I feel more akin to China than America now. The Official state religions are relatively newas opposed to Mou’s antireligious policy ( anti religious policy ? Isn’t THAT what progressives are forcing on us now ?). Conservative family values in China are also refreshing and the government feel presure fron the people as we speak to end the one child policy while progressives here push :family planning and fund it by the state.
    I see the writing on the wall. I have three children all of which are young enough to be my grandchildren. All are being taught Mandarin Chinese and recieving the best Technical education that I can provide them in order the prepare them to go and work and live in China, where I believe they and their children will grow up freer , have more opportunity, will be able to worship as the feel, and be part of the new greatest country on earth. I’ve given up on my country, I’m tired of being shouted down, I’m tired of out crappy

    Report Post » bigfatslob  
    • fertlmind
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 12:21pm

      Maybe the next Pope will be Chinese

      Report Post » fertlmind  
    • republapig
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 1:49pm

      Your chins? Is that because you have more than one? Ha ha, just kidding bigfat. I agree with you. And thanks for your service to America.

      Report Post » republapig  
  • smalldog
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:19am

    That sounds a lot like Obamaworld. Who wins and who fails in America. Which religions get state approval and which do not.

    Report Post »  
  • Dynasonic51
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:11am

    I am a practising Catholic. We have been taught that Jesus Christ is the invisible head of the Church, and the Pope is the visible head of the Church on earth. Naturally, St. Peter was the first pope. I am NOT happy with politicians like Biden, Pelosi, and Durbin who are Catholic and “embrace” the things such as abortion, gay marriages, and etc. that the Catholic Church says is wrong. Regarding the gay issue my younger sister told me ” to hate the sin, but love the sinner”. Pretty good words. I live in Illinois. I just learned that Gov. Quinn is a Catholic. I read that just about all the Dioceses in Illinois have been fired for not allowing gay couples to adopt children. I also read that there is a lawsuit in the court sysytem.

    Report Post »  
    • Jezreel
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:28am

      I hope on the day of judgment that you are not thinking of telling the Lord Jesus, “But Lord, I am a Roman Catholic”? Do you really feel that your membership with that denomination will justify you on the day of judgment? “let every man examine himself to see that he is in the faith, lest he be a reprobate” (Romans) You are in a very dangerous situation. It is more dangerous that what our government is doing. If a person is truly sincere in their heart towards Jesus Christ, “the truth will set you free”. He is not a respector of persons. He does not expect one man to repent of his sins and ask the Lord for forgiveness and to change the way he thinks and behaves and NOT expect it from another person who thinks that their priest is the mediator between them and God. When God comes back in his kingdom, he will judge everybody by his word even if a priest lies to you and says otherwise. If a person truly wants the truth, they will not walk in darkness and sin over and over and over again and think that confession will clense them. “Adulterers and whoremongers God will judge.

      Report Post »  
    • AmericanSince1619
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 2:08pm

      Malachi Brendan Martin Ph.D. (July 23, 1921 – July 27, 1999) was a Catholic priest, theologian, writer on the Catholic Church, and professor at the Vatican’s Pontifical Biblical Institute. He held three doctorates and was the sole author of sixteen books covering religious and geopolitical topics, which were published in eight languages.

      Martin travelled publicly and clandestinely to Eastern Europe and Soviet Russia during and after the reign of Pius XII. He carried out sacramental missions and was active in intelligence gathering for the church.

      He was summoned to Rome to work at the Holy See as a private secretary for Cardinal Augustin Bea S.J.from 1958 until 1964. This brought him into contact with Pope John XXIII. His years in Rome coincided with the start of the Second Vatican Council (1962–65), all of which sessions he attended.

      While in Rome, he became a professor at the Pontifical Biblical Institute of the Vatican, where he taught Aramaic, paleography, Hebrew and Sacred Scripture. He during that time also taught theology, part-time, at Loyola University of Chicago’s John Felice Rome Center. During that period his living quarters were in the Vatican, outside the papal quarters of John XXIII.

      Report Post » AmericanSince1619  
    • TheGreyPiper
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 2:10pm

      Shut up you protestant ignoramus.

      Report Post » TheGreyPiper  
    • AmericanSince1619
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 2:12pm

      Malachi Martin noted in “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church” that:
      “…A meeting between Sylvester (Pope Silvester I) and the Jewish Christian leaders took place in 318….The vital interview was not, as far as we know, recorded, but the issues were very well known, and it is probable the Joses, the oldest of the Christian Jews, spoke on behalf of the desposyni and the rest.”

      “…That most hallowed name, desposyni, had been respected by all believers in the first century and a half of Christian history. The word literally meant, in Greek, “belonging to the Lord.” It was reserved uniquely for Jesus’ blood relatives. Every part of the ancient Jewish Christian church had always been governed by a desposynos, and each of them carried one of the names traditional in Jesus’ family—Zachary, Joseph, John, James, Joses, Simeon, Matthias, and so on. But no one was ever called Jesus.

      Neither Sylvester nor any of the thirty-two popes before him, nor those succeeding him, ever emphasized that there were at least three well-known and authentic lines of legitimate blood descent from Jesus’ own family…”

      Report Post » AmericanSince1619  
    • AmericanSince1619
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 2:14pm

      “…The Desposyni demanded that Sylvester, who now had Roman patronage, revoke his confirmation of the authority of the Greek Christian bishops at Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Ephesus, and in Alexandria, and to name desposynos bishops to take their place. They asked that the practice of sending cash to Jerusalem as the mother church be resumed…

      These blood relatives of Christ demanded the reintroduction of the Law, which included the Sabbath and the Holy Day system of Feasts and New Moons of the Bible. Sylvester dismissed their claims and said that, from now on, the mother church was in Rome and he insisted they accept the Greek bishops to lead them.”

      “…This was the last known dialogue with the Sabbath-keeping church in the east led by the disciples who were descended from blood relatives of Jesus the Messiah.”

      Ask your priest about this and you know what the response will be? We have taken vows to not discuss this.

      Report Post » AmericanSince1619  
    • AmericanSince1619
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 2:27pm

      @GreyPiper

      You really don’t want me to tell the rest of this story do you?

      Report Post » AmericanSince1619  
    • Islesfordian
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 5:19pm

      @1619
      Your early Christian history comes out of a ******* Jack box. Cite your sourses. I’ll cite mine. Let’s start with Eusebius of Caesaria who wrote his Ecclesiastical History in 320 AD.

      Report Post » Islesfordian  
    • AmericanSince1619
      Posted on July 17, 2011 at 12:07am

      Not only did I cite the source, I provided a bio on the author of the source.

      and regarding Eusebius
      Eusebius of Caesarea (260-340 CE), Archbishop under Constantine, tells us in his “Ecclesiastical History” that James was “The lord’s brother, who had been elected by the Apostles to the episcopal throne at Jerusalem,” – “Ecclesiastical History” 2.23

      Eusebuis also relates what Julianus Africanus and Hegesippus wrote on the matter.

      The record does seem to show that the Roman Church usurped the authority from the Jerusalem Church, against the intentions of Jesus.

      You can either have faith in the Lord directly or through the men that sit on thrones in the Vatican and Canterbury. You have free will, decide for yourself.

      Report Post » AmericanSince1619  
    • Islesfordian
      Posted on July 17, 2011 at 7:23am

      A 20th century author is hardly a “source” for early church history. Yes, we all know about James, the lord’s brother. Got any other kinfolk of Jesus that were leaders of the church? The apostles were not chosen from Jesus’ family. The first church was Jewish but soon became predominantly Gentile as Gentiles increased in number. Given what Paul had to say about Jewishness and the Gospel it is ludicrous to think that the church would have required its leaders to be Jews.

      Report Post » Islesfordian  
  • GRAMPA-D-NH
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:02am

    Attended a few Beijing English Catholic church services. Despite misgivings (I’m not Catholic or a fan of govt controlled religion) I found the gospel message was sound. Eventually settled into the “Three Self Church”, the state run protestant Church. Wikipedia has a good summary on the history. Here is a quote “Current theological emphasis is on ”a protection and promotion of the five basic tenets of Christian faith – the Trinity, Christ being both human and God, the Virgin Birth, Death and Resurrection and the Second Coming.“ ” Despite govt involvement, I must say I found the message and practices adhered to these tenets. The church is packed every Sunday and services were in Chinese only, foreigners get head sets for simultaneous translation. It became “my” church for most of my stay because I found the regiment of the service, clarity, and non-egotistical preaching, refreshing. The ministers delivered sound, fundamental gospel, sans the psycho-bable, rock bands, and light shows I had become used to in US mega churches. There was a large expat Church that the govt banned locals from and that posed a problem since I enjoyed attending wth Chinese friends. This church was impressive with every color and creed and nationality attending. They do great work in China but certainly would be categorized as an American style “mega church”. Whatever the authority structure is, God’s word does not return empty and souls are definately coming to Christ.

    Report Post » GRAMPA-D-NH  
    • bigfatslob
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:58am

      Yes, it seems that the chinese are moving toward religious freedom while we in America are loosing our fredoms due to progressives. We are definitely headed on different directions in religionn and many aspects of life. I suspect in thirty or forty years time, China will be the “shinning light on the hill” and we will be a broken progressive/socialist state.

      Report Post » bigfatslob  
  • momprayn
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:44am

    Uh…if Beijing has severed ties with them re this issue since 1951, why this surprise? I guess the Vatican feels it has to do this in order to show other Catholics they’re “displeased”. They know nothing is going to change. Sort of juvenile.,,reminds of the games our politicians play all the time. Won’t comment on my negative thoughts about the Catholic church, since ppl will do as they want to do without the bothersome “facts”. All you get is ignorant defensive nonsense….sigh…………

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    • Gamaliel
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:10am

      MOMPRAYN – No need to comment on your negative attitude to the Catholic church which by the way preceded your Protest(ant) by 1500 years. I would hope Christians could discuss these differences in a respectful manner. How sad to see you not defend the rights of Christians who view dogma differently than you from the ruthless brutality of communist China. This is really concerning in light of the threats our country now faces. Would you defend the rights of those you disagreee with you against Moslem/Marxist/Progressive alliance or only those who agree with your version of Christianity. I’m one Catholic who would stand by you!

      Report Post »  
    • watchmany2k
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:12am

      It has nothing to do with “displeasure”
      It has everything to do with the proper succession of the indelable mark of the priesthood and in this case Bishop of the church.
      That mark to a Catholic, makes the mass, and the sacraments Valid.
      It can be traced back in time to Peter.
      THAT is what this is about.

      or to put it another way, sit in a pew for 20 years, only to find out your preacher is a jew-hating, Racist, liberation-theology miscreant. Sorta invalidates what you claim to believe doesn’t it ?

      Report Post » watchmany2k  
  • NOBALONEY
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:35am

    Hong Kong’s Cardinal Zen has been going after the Vatican for a long time. In an interview I watched last april, Cardinal Zen talked about many issues, but the one thing I remember him saying was that “China is all about control”.

    Report Post » NOBALONEY  
  • shimauma
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:34am

    LOL like some person on Earth has any say over who can serve God and who can’t. Amazes me how much implied power folks are willing to attribute to these people who are just as much a lost sinner as everyone else. Only God has a say over who can serve and who can’t. Anyone saying any different is deluded or a fraud.

    Report Post » shimauma  
    • robstoddard
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:43am

      I am not Catholic, and believe that no man can be the bridge to God, however, the Catholics have a right to believe that. The Catholic Church has the right to maintain The Pope as their spiritual leader. Anybody who thinks differently is pushing their faith and their beliefs on others.

      Report Post » robstoddard  
    • shimauma
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:05am

      @robstoddard
      sure then, the catholic church can have the pope as their “spiritual leader”, but the poop, being a regular guy who has no say over anything heavenly really has no say over whether this other regular guy in china can serve God or not. That‘d be God’s territory.

      Report Post » shimauma  
    • Gamaliel
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:30am

      To SHIMAUMA
      Read Matt 16:13-20 if you are sincere in wanting to understand the basis for the papacy. Why would Christ start a church on earth and not leave it without earthly structure and guidance for 1500 years? We believe in “Apostolic succession”. Papal authority succeeds from Peter to the present day.

      Interesting that the same critics of this are the ones who don’t have a problem with Protestant leaders being elected by panels of church members. Pastors come and go with the whims of congregations. How many Protestant denominations are there now? At least thousands. How many churches of one?

      How many mainstream Protestant Christian churches officially accept abortion/homosexuality etc.? The official Catholic Church will NEVER change on the immutable truthes. “. . .the gates of hell will not prevail against it”.

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    • scootyscot
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 1:34pm

      The Church has a right to operate how they want (as long as not harming others) without the gov. taking over. That’s the issue here. That’s all.

      As far as the pope’s authority, Catholics believe Christ appointed Peter the first visible leader (aka pope) of the Church who thus had authority (along w the Apostles) to appoint future leaders. Pope Benedict XVI can historically be traced back all the way to Peter (about 265 popes in all).

      Christ gave the keys of the Kingdom to Peter and said he was the rock of the Church. He also told Peter and the Apostles that whatever they loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven; bind on earth bound in Heaven. They have His authority to appoint other leaders. New Testament clearly speaks of appointing as such.

      You don’t have to believe this but it makes sense when you look at the teaching. Chinese gov. does not have the right to cotrol citizens’ beliefs. That’s not freedom and they should leave the Church alone and let them do their own thing.

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    • TheGreyPiper
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 2:26pm

      So you think you have the right to walk into any church you please and announce that you are the new bishop? Please, do you really believe the drivel frothing down your chin?

      Arrogance + Pride = Protestant

      Report Post » TheGreyPiper  
  • rojopa
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:20am

    The catholic church is an evil entity.

    Report Post »  
    • Rational Man
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:26am

      Okay, how am I supposted to comment on this without making all the cry baby Catholics come out and whine about it?…….Well I can’t!
      The Catholic church is stupid!……I’ll cut them some slack today and leave it at that………….

      Report Post » Rational Man  
    • RIGHTHOOK
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:55am

      And you know b/c you are a student of the Catholic faith, have studied it and other faiths therefore are a qualified “expert” on this subject……….or just another opinionated person with little or no back-up of facts. Quite astute!

      Report Post » RIGHTHOOK  
    • PowerPC
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:02am

      And the Chinese Communist Party is as pure as the wind driven snow……….

      Report Post » PowerPC  
    • Gamaliel
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:45am

      What’s the basis of your statement? Why can’t you discuss your theological disagreements respectfully? Personally, when I have the opportunity to talk about differences among believers I start with the common ground not an insult.

      Report Post »  
    • scootyscot
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 1:35pm

      yeah, the Catholic Church is soooo evil, hahaha

      they’ve helped more poor people than any other institution in the history of the world.

      it’s through the Catholic Church that we have the university and hospitals systems as we do today.

      gosh…if only they were less evil, hahahaha

      Report Post »  
  • Gonzo
    Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:18am

    Good job Vatican. Now, how about all the Catholic, pro abortin/gay marriage advocates in Congress?

    Report Post » Gonzo  
    • shimauma
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:36am

      “Catholic, pro abortin/gay marriage advocates in Congress?”

      Well said, even if the catholic church has no real spiritual authority, it would be fun to see nancy failosi’s response to being excommunicated, ROFL!!

      Report Post » shimauma  
    • Gonzo
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:43am

      Wouldn’t it though Shimauma?

      Report Post » Gonzo  
    • CommonSenseRN
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 10:53am

      Exactly, I was going to post that also; well said. It’s time for the Church to do some deep and needed cleaning. These “catholic” politicians scandalize the Church.

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    • frcomega
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:11am

      Amen!

      Report Post » frcomega  
    • Gamaliel
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 11:47am

      Gonzo, what about all the pro-abortion Protestant, Jewish, Muslim “religious” in government?

      Report Post »  
    • shimauma
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 12:49pm

      @Gamaliel
      the protestants, jews and muslims don’t really have an “excommunication” type label. The protestants would probably be shunned, I don’t know what the jews would do to their proabortion folks, and the muslims allow abortion if the baby is a GIRL.

      Report Post » shimauma  
    • papa2thdoc
      Posted on July 16, 2011 at 1:26pm

      Amen! Hey Rat-man, I often wonder what motivates protestants pride, stupidity or both. So 3/4 of the Christians are wrong, the Apostels were wrong, the early church fathers were wrong, but you and your Rev. have got it all figured out. Fifteen hundred years after Jesus founded His church, said the gates of hell would NEVER prevail against it, said He would send the Holy Spirit to guide it into ALL
      truth and that He would be with it until the end of time some guy pops up in B-F Germany with NO authority, fulfilling NO prophesy a says that he knows better and you follow him! Rational my ass.

      Report Post »  
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