Warren Buffett, His Secretary, & Fuzzy Math: Do the Numbers Really Add Up?
- Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:14am by
Robyn Walensky
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President Obama has been pitching his plan to increases taxes on high earners by using the following example that he has been repeating all over the country:
“Warren Buffett‘s secretary shouldn’t pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffett. There is no justification for it.”
The Buffett secretary comparison has become the go-to talking point for everyone supporting the proposed tax increases. But is it correct?
In order to properly investigate the claim, we contacted accounting professionals in different parts of the country and asked them to “run the numbers” on a secretary making $60,000 a year and a really rich guy.
Career CPA Cynthia L Lebreton has been in the accounting business for more than 30 years in New Orleans… she set up three tax test returns for The Blaze:
“I set up three test returns, one for Mr. Buffet’s secretary at $60,000 as if she is a single person making $60,000 with no deductions which is the most conservative approach and the result is that her effective tax rate is 14.08 percent.”
Cynthia‘s also considered the secretary’s income from the perspective of a married woman, sole bread-winner:
The second scenario I set up is if the secretary is married and makes $60,000, assuming her husband doesn’t make anything then the effective tax rate is 7.6 %
Once again, the actual tax rate is significantly less than that paid by her “boss” Warren Buffett.
The third tax scenario she sets up is for Warren Buffett himself:
“Assuming he’s at $46 million dollars as dividend income which is taxed at 15 percent, so it is true that he is in an effective rate of 15 percent. So I believe what he is stating is true he has hedge fund income that is taxed at 15 percent and probably some other income that brings his effective rate to 17. 7 percent.”
Ms. Lebreton also says:
“I would characterize Buffet’s remark about his secretary as a misrepresentation because she (the secretary) is in a bracket – a 25 percent bracket, but her effective rate because of the way brackets work is only 14.08 percent. And so I would say it’s a misrepresentation it’s spin, it’s not telling the whole story. It’s similar to when I talk to people at a cocktail party and they will say to me ‘well my friend so and so earns ‘x number’ of dollars and he pays less tax than me,’ and my reply is ‘but you never know the whole story you never know what kind of deductions there are; if they are married, single, what kind of credits they might have, like installing energy saving equipment in your house, or if you restore a historic home. That happens a lot here in New Orleans there’s a credit you can take for historic restoration. So we all know the tax code is very complex unless you sit down and have everybody’s details you cannot compare situations because it’s apples to oranges in most cases not apples to apples.”
Another Louisiana CPA who has been in the business for 25 years, Mary Valigosky with Pedelahore & Co. weighed in on the topic:
“What Buffett said, it’s just a ‘headline.’ I don’t really give it any value. When you hear it as a 30 second sound bite on television it sounds really shocking, but really from my perspective with 25 years as a CPA doing high income multi-state returns for clients, it seems far-fetched. It just seems like something in the picture is definitely missing here. I would love to see her actual return and review it.”
Out west in California, Barry Dolowich a CPA from Monterrey says:
“My personal reaction to the sound bite is it’s probably accurate, but interpreted and presented for spin. One can interpret the numbers to fit their particular agenda. In spite of the effective tax rate, I bet Mr. Buffet paid just a few more dollars in tax than his secretary! As an investor, Warren Buffet receives much of his income in the form of dividends and long-term capital gains, both taxed at a preferential maximum rate of 15%. It is not surprising that his effective tax rate would approximate 17%. His secretary, on the other hand, may have only ordinary income in the form of wages taxed on a graduated scale up to 35%.”
Michael Goldsmith – Financial Consultant with LPL Financial based in Massapequa, New York adds:
“ I’m more shocked that he pays so little, compared to how much she pays. You would expect the more somebody earns, the more they would pay in taxes but Warren Buffett as a business owner gets big deductions on donations. And, the “qualified dividends” which he receives from stocks carry little or no tax obligation. Donations also play a significant part in his lower tax rate.”
Different accounting professionals from all across the country have looked at the example being used by President Obama to bolster his case for changing the tax rates for people earning more that $250,000/year. Each and every single accountant we spoke with saw obvious flaws in this argument. It simply is not factual.
The lack of facts to back up the Buffett statement has not stopped the folks at MoveOn.org from creating an ad trying to fan the flames of class warfare:
The President has stated that this is “not class warfare, it’s math.” Well, we had licensed professionals look at the math and they all seem to agree on one thing, the numbers just don’t add up.
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Comments (122)
Ghandi was a Republican
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:59amTrue– Using obama’s logic (leaving out “Capital gains”) <Millionaires and Billionaires are paying 1,000% on their income. A net loss of everything X10
Report Post »collcw
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 7:06pm“FAIR” Tax is not the answer as you suggested on tonight’s show, Glenn.
I have watched your show since 1/09 when you started on FOX. I now subscribe to GBTV. I support you in almost everything …EXCEPT this!
You are trying to sell your followers on something by its very name is disingenuous.
If a millionaire has to give 10% of their income what happens? They can’t buy that 2nd or 3rd boat? Home? Lexus?
If someone in the Midwest makes 25k and has to pay 10%, what happens? They can’t afford 5 months rent!!!
Perhaps you, like the elites in the WH, has become ‘too removed’ from the ‘people’.
Shame on you for forgetting!!!
Report Post »SgtB
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 9:31pmCollcw,
It is obvious that you have no working knowledge of the FairTax, so let me fill you in. Currently, the American worker is taxed on every hour that they work. The American investor (like Mr. Buffet) is taxed at a flat rate on how much they earn and soc. sec. and medicare taxes are not witheld. This means that we are penalizing the average worker by charging them a fee to work.
The FairTax does away with this penalty and instead of collecting taxes on how much you work, they tax you on how much you spend on NEW goods and services. In addition to this, there is effectively no tax paid on income up to the poverty level because of the PRE-BATE system. This provides a check every month to cover the taxes on an amount up to the poverty line. In addition to this, the poor are also better off because the tax only applies to new goods. Meaning that they pay no tax on that used car, stroller, furniture, home, or anything else that is not new. This leaves the only things that will necessarily be taxed to be food and undergarments. So the FairTax will not hurt the poor unless they go party and spend all their money.
All savings now become tax free as well meaning that poor people can invest without having to know the tax implications of a roth vs normal IRA or 401k. This will also make the US a good place for foreigners to put their money and will increase our available cash flow as a nation.
Because Americans will no longer be taxed on their labor, our exports becom
Report Post »MightyInfantry
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 9:34pm@collcw
I thought the premise of law is that it is applied to everyone equally. I guess I was wrong we should decide who needs to be taxed more or who deserves more jail time for the same thing someone else did. Oh wait we already do that because we don’t believe all men are created equal. Who cares what a rich person spends their money on. Who cares if they have fifty cars and a hundred boats. That’s their money they earned it. Everyone should be taxed equally because we each have an equal stake in this country. Unless you don’t enjoy the freedoms provided by God guaranteed by our constitution defended by our military. Then in that case go somewhere else and live.
Report Post »loriann12
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 9:41pmSomeone who only makes $25,000 a year gets not only all they put into taxes back, but more than they put in. Right now they have earned income, if they’re single they have a credit for baby sitting, they get a credit for every child they have, if they donate to charity, they deduct that. Your argument doesn’t hold water.
The fair thing to do would be to have EVERYONE pay some amount of tax, except those under the poverty level, who get only back what they put in. If they’re making only $25,000 a year, they’re also getting food stamps, welfare, WIC, every other government handout out there. If you pay absolutely no taxes, you should have no say in government. Even if it’s only $20. They should give refunds up to the amount you put in. If you pay $2250 in taxes (9% of $25,000), you should never get back more than $2230 at the end of the year.
Report Post »SgtB
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 9:49pmcheaper. This means that as a nation, we will become more competitive in the industrial and manufacturing sectors which as of late haven’t been doing as well as they should. Also, because the tax is on new goods including imports, American goods will become more cost competitive at home as well. This is because the goods from other countries are usually all taxed before they get to us through their own country’s income taxes. This means a widget from China is taxed in China before it ever hits the shelf and is taxed at sale here. This means it is taxed more than the comparable American widget that is only taxed at sale.
The combined effects of the FairTax are that we as Americans become more aware of the cost of government because taxes are no longer hidden. It also brings in foreign investment and makes US goods cheaper at home and overseas.
Tell me why you think this is bad. And if you think we should have a flat tax… Just look at your paycheck and you’ll notice that we already have a nearly 15% flat tax that has gone up several times over the years, which is the trend with flat taxes. Just a note, you pay ~7.5% and your employer pays the other half, BUT, there is no tax that you can put on business that is not passed on to the consumer or employee. This is such a tax that is passed on to the employee.
The FairTax is the best system that I’ve seen or studied and in countries with systems like it, the tax rate is currently dropping and has been for a while.
Report Post »Detroit paperboy
Posted on September 23, 2011 at 8:29amI think the cheap ba$tard needs to give his secretary a raise .
Report Post »And he could start by paying the 1 billion in back taxes he owes ,
Then he should go away and shut the hell up !!!! Closet commie .
beekeeper
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:48amPeople are incredibly sloppy with their language these days – they say tax rate as if it applies to all 100% of their income, and they are really talking about the tax rate on their last dollar earned, or the calculated rate ignoring all deductions, or calculated considering deductions, or what someone said on comedy central or Bill Maher’s show…
What gets lost in the shuffle is that Mr. Buffet (in the above, contrived numbers) is earning about 750x what his secretary is ($46,000,000 vs. $60,000), and is paying over $7M in taxes vs. his secretary’s taxes of between $5,000 and $8,000 (depending on filing status)… Mr. Buffet is paying about 1,000x more than his secretary which seems more than fair, compared withtheir income disparity of only 750x.
Report Post »turkey13
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 12:10pmObama stopped the other day and buffits whole head went in and now instead of a brown nose, he has a brown face. Buffit hopes obama will pardon him like clinton did mark rich. Rich owed 33 million not a billion$$$$.
Report Post »aafriend
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 12:13pmif we created this scenario,
you can’t compere buffet to a secretary unless they both where just paying taxes on there EARNED INCOME.
Capital gains are a separate line item on your basic tax forum. His personal capital gains verses his corporate gains are completely separate.
Buffets personal income tax will have gains and losses depending on his investments which will effect is overall tax he pays.
What we need to see is what His last personal Tax returns where.
His personal taxes are completely separate from his corp that he sits on the board off, that’s where his earned income comes from which the board dictates what his salary his.
Report Post »Ruler4You
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 12:37pmYou don‘t have to be a MIT graduate to know that ’numbers’ only apply to the common citizen. They don’t apply to GIANT corporate America (right GE? GM? Sachs?), they don’t apply to government entities (right Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae? et al)
They apply to common people without resources to fight government. Period. It’s safer that way.
Report Post »IntransigentMind
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 12:50pmThis class envy garbage MUST end. The real free-riders:
Report Post »Free-Riders: http://markamerica.com/2011/09/22/the-other-side-of-class-warfare-taking-society-down/
1LarryG1
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 4:35pmThat’s right. It’s not the percentage, it’s the amount the percentage is based on that makes the difference. If they both pay 15% regardless of deductions, etc., 15% of million dollars is a hell of a lot more revenue than 15% of sixty thousand dollars.
Report Post »SteveNC
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 8:36pmSomething that’s been going unsaid in this whole discussion, is that the dividends Buffet is receiving are from investments made with money that has already been taxed once. How many times should the government be allowed to tax 1$?
Report Post »Tyler520
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:46amI hope Warren Buffett lets us know when Berkshire Hathaway manages to pay off its backtaxes since 2002
Report Post »aafriend
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:57amRush said it best the other day, this guy wants his name attached to a tax increase !
These socialist are the gift that keeps giving. you have to love it potus is up in front of the UN talking about Corruption around the world ! ya think its hard to look in the mirror.
Report Post »Nachum
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:45amGee Warren, what were you doing in the White House just before you bought that Bank of America stock? You wouldn’t mind letting the SEC look over these deals…. would you?
http://www.nachumlist.com/obamaethics3.htm
Report Post »Liberalismsamentaldisorder
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:35amFor some reason most of these stories miss the most important part of all. Yes, your capital gains are only taxed at 15%, but to have an asset that is capable of a capital gain you generally had to have money to buy the asset; money that was taxed EXACTLY as the secretaries money was taxed, as earned income.
Report Post »aafriend
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:49amThis is so much fun, they try to confuse the conversation like the tax code.
Example:
Lets say Nancy that speaker of the house makes a earned income of 90,000.00 she is taxed on that
Lets say Her operating annual operating budget is 800.000.00 that’s where she really earns her income.
seats up in congress are like there own little corporations, the only difference is their CAPITAL is provided by the tax payers.
Perks, gifts, smoke and mirrors come on people.
Report Post »Liberalismsamentaldisorder
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:58am@AA
Yep, that’s another whole sad story. Want to prepare citizens for the real world? Get rid of 4 years of basket weaving in our public schools and put it 4 years of how money works.
Report Post »UlyssesP
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:26amThat is pretty convoluted. I hear you on the get-rich-quick stuff, but there are a lot of people and aliases involved in this theory. How do they all keep it quiet? I guess they use the same method as the hundreds of 9/11 conspirators in our govt use top cover up their massive plot.
Report Post »tankyjo
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:22amWonder what buffet get’s outa the deal. Sooooooooo not worth it.
Report Post »Gary Fishaholic
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 1:06pmI think he is working on that billion that he already owes! Trying to weasel out of it by helping his master!
Report Post »cbtu77
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:21amEven if the billionaires only pay 10% they are still paying millions more in taxes than their secretaries.
Report Post »aafriend
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:38amIn other words if he makes his salary 50,000.00 ya he would pay less taxes than his secretary. come on all the spin from the media and politicians over this is sick. wake them all up Glenn ! Geeeeeeeeeeeeez. Go GBTV the truth lives here !
Report Post »lvjohn
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:18amThere is no fool like an old fool and Buffet qualifies.
Report Post »aafriend
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:32amThis all so funny, they think we are fools too. i am so glad people are starting to wake up.
Common sense ! Warren Buffet is an executive of a Corp ! he pays himself a salary and gets taxed on it. his company makes a profit which the company gets taxed as well.
What tax does he pay as an employee Hum.
What about is perks, expense account etc.
This idiot can’t even be used as a comparison to a secretary unless you just use his executive pay, he can make his salary what ever he wants. his real salary comes from expense accounts, perks and all the freebies that come from running his company. come on is he really avoiding taxes. ya think !
Report Post »riverdog1
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 4:55pmforgot how you all love the irs here. buffet is right. sorry
Report Post »vinnymac46
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:16am…come on folks, this is Oblamanomics 101, tell them anything because they are too stupid to know any better and I’ll get re-elected anyway. The real question the liberal medial needs to ask Warren Buffet is what “paranormal” force is holding him back from sending in a higher tax check, ask all of them, Bill Gates, Warren, Mark Cuban…if they think they don’t pay enough taxes.
Report Post »Brad Wesselmann
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:52amOr better yet, what is keeping them from avoiding all the “loopholes” and just taking their total number of income they received and pay 25% on that? …or some other higher percentage for that matter? I think the old man is being a fool, which can only mean that he is somehow benefiting from it…he is NO fool, and only the foolish would think otherwise.
Report Post »Anonymous T. Irrelevant
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:12amAs much as the lies Obama is spouting, I want Zombie Apocalypse Moveon.org to ‘fess up to the lie of “most Americans want Congress to raise taxes on the wealthy.”
Report Post »I am pretty sure most Americans understand it is the most of the wealthy who create and provide jobs for them.
chips1
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 12:05pmWhat about a hearing tax? The bigger the ears, the bigger the tax.
Report Post »rosegrower
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 4:50pmI hate to burst your bubble, but I don’t believe that “most Americans” understand that it’s the rich who create jobs. Ask the majority of working stiffs – especially those who work in a union environment – and they really do believe that wealthy people just got that way by accident. However, I also believe that most Americans believe that they can become rich (look at the gleam in the eyes of those same union members after they’ve bought their umpteenth lottery ticket), so they realize it’s suicide to want to tax the heck out of the rich when they just might hit the number and BE one of those people one day.
Report Post »DanWesson455
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:12amI SAY! take all the money and wealth from everyone worth a million dollars or more. Run the Government for 7 days. You then run out of money. Then ask DIP WAD O’Bambam: OK, now what?
Report Post »sWampy
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:21amThat actually might be a great idea, once the wealth was gone from the liberal democrats, we might be forced to have a society where you are get paid based on your worth as a producer, not based on how much your daddy and granddaddy made selling slaves to southerners, or stole from tax payers.
Report Post »tmead
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:11amI think a low flat tax with no deductions is fair. Follow the example of God. He is a flat taxer at 10%, no deductions or exemptions, from poorest to richest. He could have supported a progressive system, but did not. So a tithe from everyone must be a fair tax. (we actually collect about 10% of National Income in income taxes)
Report Post »mrsmileyface
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:06amWow Democrats saying falsehoods and outright lies. Now theres a new concept. (eye roll) Does it really need to be said……… Buffet pays taxes on cap gains and his secretary pays taxes on her income. Its like apples and oranges. Liberals trying to tell lies to those who dont know better ( continuing eye roll).
Report Post »Ghandi was a Republican
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:04amPay your $BILLION in back taxes and come back with a check made out to John Q. Public for a couple Billion more and we’ll talk. Giving money to obama‘s teleprompter isn’t going to get it!
Report Post »Anonymous T. Irrelevant
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:57amI can see that most everyone is really surprised that Zombie Obama would make a false statement-NOT.
Report Post »reformedlawyer
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:56amIsn’t anything Warren Buffet says automatically suspect? He is the classic biased witness under undue influence. Did anyone consider that Warren is into the ‘Chicago Group’ (via the IRS) for a BILLION dollars? He must say the script; it’s better than losing a few fingers…or something even more dear to his heart.
Maybe Ron Howard is speaking code when he says “As for me, I am with Warren”: translated more in terms of solidarity: poor Warren, I am sorry for your predicament, I wish I could help you; but, I don’t want to lose any of my fingers, either, so I will just say something that sounds like I agree with the bogus script you are selling. Was Ron Howard getting ready to make a movie or something that was going to go against the Group? The interview question sounds like a test question: Are you for us or against us?
Report Post »Santafean
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:52amI would love pay income taxes, because that would mean I am employed.
Report Post »SpankDaMonkey
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:32am.
Report Post »Write a FREAK’in huge check already Warren. Then take your $50 billion, break into $1 million dollar piles and give it away. Oh you won’t give us your $50 billion. Well that’s just Racist………….
trolltrainer
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:31am“You know what? If asking a billionaire to pay the same rate as a plumber or a teacher makes me a warrior for the middle class, I wear that charge as a badge of honor.”
Barak Obama Sept. 20, 2011.
Obama wants to LOWER taxes on the rich!!!
Zombie Apocalypse
Report Post »Whirling Dervish
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:41amJust going out on a limb here, how about we cut the federal government say 50%? They would think twice before spending taxpayer money on silly propaganda like this thru their cronies such as Soros ……. problem solved….
Report Post »insomnix
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:52amI think millionaires and billionaires should pay the same rate as a plumber or a teacher too. Sounds to me like a flat rate income tax is what he wants. We should give it to him. Let’s say 9% to 12% for everyone, no deductions… want to be fair, you know.
Report Post »DTOM_Jericho (Creator vindicator)
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:11amIncome should not be taxed at all. Consumption of non-neccessities should be. (at 11%) All debts and programs should be paid first and the “salaries” of gov workers last, since they are a net loss of revenue. This would incentivize the government to put jobs and the economy first.
There should be no deductions of any kind. Marriage, kids, mortgage interest, charity. The poor should receive monies from state/local governments, individuals or private organizations. If a deduction changes how much you give, it’s not “charity”.
There should be no property tax for individuals. You BUY land; it’s yours.
There should be no estate tax. The argument of people keeping wealth among family is a red herring. The wealthy, consume. If my kids can’t profit of my work… the gov sure as **** shouldn’t. Additionally, my kids do chores, cut grass, help with the house, animals and land… who says they did nothing to earn it? The gov sure as **** didn’t.
DTOM (Don’t Tread On Me)
Report Post »capitalismrocks
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:30amOf course the numbers don’t add up… Buffet is senile…
He is comparing his secretaries Salary from Income Tax to his Dividend capital gains tax (a double tax since his original money was taxes already, this is interest earning on that money) – so he is comparing two different things.
Its like him saying – well she pays 25% in taxes on her income, but I’m paying 8% sale tax, so I’m paying less then her — two totally different things – what a moron and the WH is even more stupid to be jumping on this are another desperate marketing ploy for their tax tax tax agenda, because it only took a few hours before the AP and other media outlets revealed the truth of the matter… yet this WH has never let petty things like — THE TRUTH, stand in their way of pushing their agenda
Report Post »Liberalismsamentaldisorder
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:45amYou miss the scariest part. Buffet is no moron. So? He must be lying on purpose. But, to what end is the real question.
Report Post »blue_sky
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:25amWarren Buffet sings socialist songs of higher taxes, because government bailed him out.
In that respect monopolies and trade unions are the same, they love big government that protects them from competition through regulations and bail outs. With job and capital secure by taxpayers money, they are as happy with today’s corporatism/fascism as socialist tenured professors.
Only one man will stop all that – RON PAUL.
=====================================
Report Post ».
Al J Zira
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:24amI said when this story first came out that it sounds like they’re all in favor of a flat tax. Bring it on!
Report Post »tobywil2
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:21amWhy all these facts? Would President Obama lie to us?
Report Post »AJAYW
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:55amIf his lips are moving he’s speaking untruths – he would much rather spin a lie than tell the truth. He’s a disgrace to the office he holds.
Report Post »ddg7
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 11:10am@AJAYW…Amen to that!
Report Post »tobywil2
Posted on September 22, 2011 at 10:19amBuffet is one of Obama’s cronies. Why would he pay any taxes? See cartoon: http://commonsense21c.com/images/cronyism-2.jpg
Report Post »