Crime

What If George Zimmerman Were Black: Liberals Think They’ve Found the Answer in Georgia

“If Trayvon Martin had been white and George Zimmerman had been black, would we feel the same way?”

For many people, this question has been a persistently troubling one in the aftermath of George Zimmerman’s shooting of Trayvon Martin and the racially charged media circus that has resulted from it. And leaving aside the fact that Zimmerman is hispanic, many liberal leaning bloggers, Salon’s Rania Khalek and MSNBC’s Melissa Harris Perry foremost among them, think they’ve found a test case that shows precisely this implied double standard at work.

Meet John McNeil, the man who some are calling “the black George Zimmerman”:

Is Convicted Murderer John McNeils Case a Racially Reversed Parallel to George Zimmermans Actions in the Trayvon Martin Case?McNeil is currently serving a life sentence for shooting Brian Epp, a young white construction worker, in a case with admittedly eerie factual similarities to the Martin case. Or at least, similarities that are eerie if you take the Left‘s bloggers’ word on it. Here‘s Salon’s description:

It all began in early 2005, when McNeil and his wife, Anita, hired Brian Epp’s construction company to build a new house in Cobb County, Ga. The McNeils testified that Epp was difficult to work with, which led to heated confrontations. They eventually decided to close on the house early to rid their lives of Epp, whom they found increasingly threatening. At the closing, both parties agreed that Epp would have 10 days to complete the work, after which he would stay away from the property, but he failed to keep up his end of the bargain.

On Dec. 6, 2005, John McNeil’s 15-year-old son, La’Ron, notified his dad over the phone that a man he didn’t recognize was lurking in the backyard. When La’Ron told the man to leave, an argument broke out. McNeil was still on the phone and immediately recognized Epp’s voice. According to La’Ron’s testimony, Epp pointed a folding utility knife at La’Ron’s face and said, “[w]hy don’t you make me leave?” at which point McNeil told his son to go inside and wait while he called 911 and headed home.

According to McNeil’s testimony, when he pulled up to his house, Epp was next door grabbing something from his truck and stuffing it in his pocket. McNeil quickly grabbed his gun from the glove compartment in plain view of Epp who was coming at him “fast.” McNeil jumped out of the car and fired a warning shot at the ground insisting that Epp back off. Instead of retreating, Epp charged at McNeil while reaching for his pocket, so McNeil fired again, this time fatally striking Epp in the head. (Epp was found to have a folding knife in his pocket, although it was shut.)

Making the story even more convenient for those citing it as a parallel to the Martin case, Georgia apparently both has a “Stand Your Ground” law similar to Florida’s and subscribes to the “Castle doctrine” that allows deadly force in defense of one’s own property. So if McNeil is behind bars, Zimmerman should be too, or if Zimmerman is let go, so should McNeil be, right?

Not so fast. Unlike the Zimmerman/Martin case, which has yet to go to an official trial, the McNeil case left an ample legal paper trail to follow showing precisely why McNeil’s self-defense claim didn’t work. Readers are invited to form their own conclusions – the truth has no agenda – but for the sake of accuracy, here are a few of the facts that the Salon/MSNBC account leaves out:

1. According to libertarian blogger Radley Balko, who is sympathetic to McNeil, Georgia’s “Stand Your Ground Law” was passed in 2006, whereas McNeil’s case was tried in 2005. As such, the two cases have real legal differences in terms of how the self-defense claim was applied. Balko still thinks the self-defense claim should have worked in McNeil’s case, but points this out (emphasis added):

But even if Georgia’s Stand Your Ground law had already been effect, if McNeil wasn’t granted that defense or a traditional self-defense claim because of his race, class, or some other unjust reason, none of that is a convincing critique of the law. It’s a convincing critique of the criminal justice system.

From the facts in the opinion, I’d say McNeil not only should have been acquitted on traditional self-defense laws, he should never have been charged in the first place. (That was also the opinion of the lead investigator.) But trying to shoehorn this case into a narrative that allows for comparisons to the Martin case doesn’t do John McNeil any favors. I’m not sure it really helps the cause of those calling for Zimmerman’s head, either. For example, the Salon piece suggests that McNeil’s prosecutor may have filed the murder charge after caving to public pressure. That’s what Zimmerman’s defenders say is also happening to him.* Epp’s prior history of threatening people plays into McNeil’s favor—but if we’re comparing the two cases, then it would also seem appropriate to look into Martin’s history, which Martin’s supporters have decried as smearing the victim.

The unfortunate framing aside, this is still a story that deserves more attention, and one that the gun rights crowd should be all over—and really should have been all over from the start.

2. McNeil’s case went all the way to the Georgia Supreme Court, which offers a very different account of what happened from the one presented by Salon in their 6-1 decision:

Viewed in the light most favorable to the verdict, the evidence reveals that, in September 2005, McNeil contracted to buy an unfinished home from Epp Elevations, a small building company owned by Epp and his wife.   On December 6, 2005, Epp went to McNeil’s house to complete required work.   McNeil’s son, La’Ron, was home and called McNeil to report that someone was in the backyard.   Believing that Epp was a trespasser, La’Ron confronted Epp and asked him to leave, and an argument ensued during which Epp pointed a knife at La’Ron.   La’Ron called McNeil to report this incident to him.

In response, McNeil headed home in his car.   On the way back he reported to an emergency 911 operator that a man was on his property and had pulled a knife on his son.   Moments later, McNeil told the operator, “I’m at the property now ․ and there’s the builder and I may get ready to whip his ass right now.   So get the cops here now.”   As McNeil was pulling into his driveway, he retrieved an automatic handgun from his car’s glove compartment, removed it from its case, and loaded it with ammunition.

An eyewitness who was across the street heard McNeil and Epp arguing loudly.   A few minutes later he heard a loud pop and saw smoke and McNeil pointing his hand toward the ground and stepping backward.   Epp was in the yard between McNeil’s house and the one next door and walking toward McNeil.   McNeil continued to back up with his hands pointed toward the ground and said “Back up, I am not playing with you.”   Epp increased his speed toward McNeil and McNeil raised his gun and fired at Epp’s head.   Epp’s hands were at his sides, and the eyewitness did not see him raise his hands or see any weapons in his hands.[...]

From the evidence presented, the jury was authorized to conclude that McNeil decided to confront Epp with the specific purpose of “whip[ping] his ass” before Epp even knew that McNeil was on his way to the scene;  that McNeil had time to stop in his driveway, retrieve a gun from his glove compartment, take the gun out of its case, load it, exit from his car, and “argue loudly” with Epp for a few minutes before firing the first shot at him;  and that McNeil lied to police when he claimed that he had shot Epp because Epp had “pulled a knife on him” during the confrontation (because other eyewitness testimony showed that Epp had no weapon in his hands at the time of the shooting, and further testimony showed that Epp’s knife was folded and in his pocket after he had been shot).

In short, under Georgia law pre Stand Your Ground, the case was cut and dried. One interesting sidebar, though – the one Justice to dissent against the 6-1 decision cited above was one Leah Ward Sears, then-Chief Justice of the Georgia Supreme Court. Sears disagreed with the Court‘s prevailing finding that McNeil’s act was in self-defense, and therefore wanted to overturn his conviction. Sears has since retired. Yet we may see her in the news yet – she was on the short list of President Obama’s potential nominees to hold the Supreme Court seat currently held by Justice Sonia Sotomayor.

As to John McNeil’s being compared with George Zimmerman, the comparison only works in the sense that McNeil would have a somewhat stronger case if he were tried under Florida’s current Stand Your Ground law, which states:

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

However, given that Zimmerman came out of his incident with head wounds, whereas the Georgia Supreme Court decision notes that the only abrasion McNeil suffered was from firing his gun, it is still possible to see a scenario where one is convicted and the other acquitted.

 

Comments (161)

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  • Tarantulas
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:39pm

    That is a tough one to call. McNeil didn’t have the “stand your ground” law on his side at the time, so he could have gotten back into his car, locked the door, and waited for the police to arrive. But then he did tell Epp “stop or I’ll shoot” twice – once verbally and once by firing a round into the dirt, and Epp kept coming. I think the case should go to the US Supreme Court.

    There was a somewhat similar case in Arizona in 2006 that resulted in a change in State law and a man serving 3 years in prison for an act of self defense. Here’s some information about it:

    http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/2009/05/16/20090516hikershooter0516.html

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2790117/posts

    Report Post » Tarantulas  
    • Detroit paperboy
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:57pm

      A few differences, first of all they knew each other, second, he was and or had been working to finish construction on the home. Third it was broad daylight, fourth, the homeowner already had a grudge against Epps……fifth, if this guy was so terrible, why even give him ten days to finish the house ? Get someone else….I wouldn’t want someone that I know is a creep, to do anything at my house…..

      Report Post »  
    • hidden_lion
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:17pm

      McNeil never should have been convicted. He even gave the Epp guy a warning shot. Epp still advanced on him and had threatened his son with a knife. Free McNeil. Free Zimmerman. Stand up for the most important human right, self defense.

      Report Post » hidden_lion  
    • jhaydeng
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:44pm

      Sad part is that you really didn’t hear about this case!!! What a joke! Our media stinks!

      Report Post »  
    • WalkSoft
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:48pm

      Warn shot is a wake up call to the fact you may get shot. He got shot. He wouldn’t have gave a warning shot befor he shot him if he intended to just kill him. Sounds like he was getting thretened with intent Epp wasn’t lisening to the man incharge, so he now has meat his maker.

      Report Post » WalkSoft  
    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:52pm

      How do we really know that the son was threatened with a knife since the Dad lied about that as well. This was trumped up in their excuse to kill Epp. Epp should have backed down but thats besides the point. He didn’t, McNeil lied about the knife threat and shot Epp point blank when Epp had no weapon in his hands. This was not cold blooded but after a heated argument and bad blood between them for some time.

      Zimmerman did not know his attacker, he did however know that the area was rife with thievery and break ins. He had every reason to believe that Martin had the power to kill him so Zimmerman shot first and asked questions later. There is a big difference between these cases. No one argued for Epps being killed because he was White. Public pressure has caused the local gov to cave with this thing being a national story whereas McNeils story may only have been known locally be a few. Zimmerman is being railroaded and McNeil I think gets a jail time for going to confront with deadly force someone who he has had issues with.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
    • From Virginia
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 6:14pm

      Actually, it‘s just come out the Zimmerman’s maternal grandfather was a black-hispanic. So Zimmerman is getting less and less white.

      Report Post »  
    • VoteBushIn12
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 6:27pm

      @JHAYDENG

      You didn’t hear about it because there is nothing extraordinary about a man killing another man and going to jail for it.

      You DID hear about Zimmerman because he was a man that killed another man and DIDN’T go to jail for it.

      Pretty key difference there.

      Report Post » VoteBushIn12  
    • Loki
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 7:11pm

      10th, the attacker was unarmed and hadnt made physical contact to the person claiming he was defending himself. his life was not in danger at that point. if the attack would have been bouncing the other guys head on the sidewalk, it may have turn out different….
      claiming self defense isnt a get out of jail for doing something dumb….

      Report Post » Loki  
    • hidden_lion
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 8:29pm

      You don’t have to wait for they guy to injure you or kill you before you can fire, that is absurd. Epps hands were in his pocket and he was advancing on a guy who just fired a warning shot. That more than establishes intent. It does not matter they had bad blood. The dude threatened his kid and was still there when the father got there. You liberals are completely wacked, that is why your Liberal commie controlled cities are war zones.

      Report Post » hidden_lion  
    • kryptonite
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 9:41pm

      @ChiefGeorge
      McNeil lied about the knife threat and shot Epp point blank when Epp had no weapon in his hands.
      ——–
      But Epp “increased his speed toward McNeil,” after the warning shot was fired. What do you think he was doing, practicing for the 100m sprint? It doesn’t matter if McNeil lied about the knife. The knife was worthless at that distance, so what Epp was trying to do was close the distance between him and McNeil. Epp should have walked away. People act stupidly when they lose control.

      Zimmerman lied too. He didn’t get jumped from behind. He may very well have been punched in the face and knocked to the ground, but M had a gun pointing at him the very next second. Z’s story is as credible as a Rocky movie, except by his own account he acted more like the Latino Hinny than the Italian Stallion.

      Report Post »  
    • kryptonite
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 9:47pm

      @From Virginia
      Actually, it‘s just come out the Zimmerman’s maternal grandfather was a black-hispanic. So Zimmerman is getting less and less white.
      ——–
      If Zimmerman is white, then Obama is white. Can we charge him with high treason now?

      Report Post »  
    • maccow
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 2:13am

      You are all missing the biggest difference in these two cases.
      In the McNeil case there was 1) a trial 2) a jury of peers and then 3) a State Supreme Court decision. None of these three key elements has occurred in the Zimmerman case yet.

      Maybe I am naive to think we still live in a country governed by the rule of law.

      Report Post » maccow  
    • Bluefish49
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 4:46am

      Paper Boy…you are way off base. You have obviously never been in a Binding Contract with a contractor….you have to let “them” finish the work. If all is true in this story this guy should have been patted on the back for ridding the world of “White Trash”. and I’m a white conservative who has been so fed up with my building contractor I wanted to shoot him. This case is complete BS and you know it…right is right and this is just wrong.

      Report Post »  
    • BSdetector
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 7:27am

      It does sound to me like McNeil acted in defense. Even without the stand your ground law, he fired a warning shot, Epp broke into a run, and McNeil shot him as he should at that point. It all happened on McNeil’s property too which should fall under the Castle Doctrine. As for “lying” about the knife, his son told him before he got there that the guy was brandishing and now he’s charging at McNeil with his hand in his pocket…
      I don’t see how this means Zimmerman should go to jail though, if anything McNeil may have been wrongly convicted and deserve a retrial.

      Report Post » BSdetector  
    • Independent4233
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 8:25am

      As the case is described, McNeil should have been acquitted under normal self-defense laws. But there’s so much lying coming from the left I hesitate to believe their account of what happened, and I think there’s much more to the incident not being reported.

      Too…for comparison’s sake…. it’s quite a different thing to be confronting a person in an argument…if that’s really what happened….then shooting him than it is to shoot him when he‘s on top trying to bash a person’s brains out and beating him in the face.

      And the question here should not be “would we regard the situation any differently if the races were reversed,“ it should be ”would the black mobs still want to start rioting if the races were reversed?”

      The black instigators would be rallying to the side of the black shooter, claiming he acted in self defense. And they would be threatening to riot if he were arrested.

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 9:27am

      There are many many differences in this case.

      For one, John McNeil went to trial, and was found guilty. White people did not march in the street, show up on TV, and declare him guilty based on the skin color of him or his victim. It was kept at the local level.

      McNeil was not laying on his back, getting his head smashed into the ground. McNeil nor his son was in any immediate danger. His son was in the house, and McNeil was in his car with a gun. Had McNeil drew his pistol, and moved to the house where his son was, and was either attacked, on the way to the house, or at the house, it would have been a different case.

      Either way, McNeil was given a trial, and no white folks put out death threats against him, or wanted signs and a bounty on his head

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • dangmc
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 9:51am

      I was quite familiar with this case-am a long time Arizonan. If Grant Kuenzli’s mental instability had been allowed to be introduced, I think this trial might have ended more favorably for the defendant.
      Defendant: respected member of the community, retired teacher.
      Victim: highly intelligent loner, unstable, pleasant to be with as long as you didn’t push his buttons! Limited social skills.
      Scene: two people walking in the forest encounter, defendant alone, victim walking with two large dogs. Defendant felt threatened by dogs; stated victim ran toward him screaming threats-unarmed victim shot by defendant.
      Witnesses: none except dogs, who presumably weren’t talking.
      Result: defendant got maybe 10 yrs for manslaughter; Arizona got ‘stand your ground law’ as a direct result of this case.
      Thoughts: introduction of Kuenzli’s background most likely would have gotten Fish off, or at least a reduced sentence.

      Report Post » dangmc  
    • kadster01
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 9:54am

      McNeil did what a cop would do if, after firing a warning shot, a man charged toward him/her. If the man had threatened his son, he did what any father with any guts would do…confront him. IMO, this was a clear-cut case of self-defense and McNeil should no more have been arrested than was Zimmerman.

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 11:56am

      kadster01

      The “warning shot” is a misconception. It is as false as people who think that cops shoot people in the leg to wound them.

      The police and military do not get trained to do warning shots, leg shots, wounding shots. When they shoot, they shoot center mass, and with a goal to stop the threat. When you pull that trigger, you are releasing a bullet that has the potential to kill and destroy. You do not just willy nilly shoot, and hope the bullet goes somewhere safe.

      If you use a firearm for self defense, you should have the same mind set. If you pull that trigger, your front sight should be center mass, and you should have the intent in neutralizing the threat.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • IntegrityFirst08
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 3:48pm

      Kadster – Thats completely wrong. A warning shot? That sounds insane, where is that bullet going? maybe into a neighbors house striking an innocent civilian. There are no warning shots ever.

      This case is very different then martin case. This guy acted as an agitator then used deadly force after it got out of control on him. His son was in the house apparently safe. The situation surrounding this he should have let police lock the guy up for pointing a knife at his son. But he wanted to do otherwise (whipping his ass). There is not really a comparisson between the cases.

      Report Post » IntegrityFirst08  
    • jlcook
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 4:20pm

      If you have a CWP you would know that you can not engage and provoke a fight, then pull a gun and call self defense, this was strictly a police matter or they should fought by hand. If he knew he had a knife, he should have never engaged in argument. Peroid…..

      Report Post » jlcook  
  • stloocardsfan
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:35pm

    If the facts stated in the article are accurate, this man should have never spent a night in jail.

    Report Post » stloocardsfan  
    • psychokittis
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:03pm

      I have to agree. If Epps kept coming after McNeil told him and then fired a shot into the ground, then it is reasonable to assume that he had some intent to harm McNeil. McNeil was in his rights to shoot. I think he was railroaded.

      Report Post » psychokittis  
    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:54pm

      I never read where Epp threatened McNeils life or hit him in anyway! The knife thing is a joke! What contractor doesn’t carry a pocket knife for maintenance?

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
    • hidden_lion
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 8:32pm

      Chief-
      What about advancing on the guy guy who just fired a warning shot…If you were in McNeil’s position would you feel the guy was going to just give you a hug or something? You would be dead on the street.

      Report Post » hidden_lion  
    • JohnnyMidknight
      Posted on April 27, 2012 at 6:20pm

      @ hidden_lion

      Advancing on someone that fired a warning shot is not evidence of assault or absolves the shooter. The eye witness account said Epps was WALKING to him. Epps was unarmed as well. It could be seen as McNeil was the one making threats and flashing his gun.

      We also do not know if the son’s testimony of the knife being pulled is 100% accurate, or if his son threatened Epps first which resulted in Epps threatening the son with a knife. There are too many loop holes and inconsistencies to make a judgement about the previous information with the son.

      What we do know is that McNeil made it fully known to the dispatch operator at 911 that he was going to “whip” Epp’s behind. That is intent to cause violence prior to McNeil being on the scene. Not to mention that McNeil brought the gun out of his car with intent to use prior to talking to Epps. At this point, McNeil is the aggressor and is instigating a response. The two start arguing, and Epps WALKS towards him with nothing in hand. McNiel Fires a warning shot and threatens. Why? because of tone of voice? Epps probably feels threaten from seeing the gun, the tone of the argument and then being told he will be shot; then rushes for he feels his life is in jeopardy.

      Self defense is not applicable when you go into a situation looking to get into an exchange and stating your intent prior to the act. It is not as cut and dry as you are making it.

      Report Post » JohnnyMidknight  
  • Balpit
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:35pm

    Ironically, the “Stand your ground” law so derided by these people would have protected McNeil from this injustice.

    Report Post »  
    • Tordil
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:37pm

      Exactly, the same people that are saying it was wrong for him going to jail are the same people protesting the law that would have kept him out of jail.

      Someone tells you they are going to shoot you if you keep charging… take their word on it

      Report Post »  
    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:56pm

      Epps pride got the best of him but I don’t think he was really going to do anything except show McNeil he was not going to be threatened by someone with a gun while he did nothing, no violence, no threatening words in this story from Epp to McNeil. The court did give the man a fair trial and he lost. He was found guilty and if Zimmerman is truly guilty and did not act with prior malice towards Martin then I think he’ll go free not like the McNeil case where trouble had been brewing between these two for sometime.

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
    • Davidd1975
      Posted on April 27, 2012 at 5:13am

      To Chief George,
      Your thinking would have allowed Epps to do whatever he wanted. ‘Don’t resist. Just hide and take what they dish out.’ On 9/11 that’s what the passengers did on two of the planes. The Constitution grants us the right to defend ourselves. As for Epps, Mr. Gump said it best, “Stupid is as stupid does.”

      Report Post »  
  • Balpit
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:32pm

    Meanwhile, there are people out there who fight tooth and nail for cop killers instead of John McNeil. If Brian Epp were a cop killed in cold blood, they’d be crying oceans for McNeil. What a messed up world we live in.

    Report Post »  
  • izukiddin
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:28pm

    I think that McNeil didn’t have a very good attorney. It was obviously self defense, but McNeil gave the prosecution some leverage when he shot off his mouth to the 911 operator.

    Report Post »  
  • james1968
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:21pm

    Facinating similarities in the case for sure but the comparison itself isn’t necessary. The Zimmerman trial should stand oon it’s own evedence, or lack thereof.

    There is also on striking difference between these two cases. The one in GA was not front page news, the president did not weigh in, there were not vigils all over the country, there were no noted acts of revenge, and there was no hoodie.

    The left can scour news archives till the cows come but what is the point? Many white people have been killed by black people, that is really not the issue here at all, nor was unmasking this great truth by Salon.

    The trouble with the Trayvon murder is not the crime, it is the wildly irresponsible coverage by lefty media and the retaliatory violence by angry mobs and midlessly crazed individuals.

    Odd, I rember the very same people who occupy the best seats on the Travon bandwagon being beside themselves with rage and disgust at all the racist Tea Parties yet not a word about The Black panthers or revenge crimes.

    http://crazyconservative.wordpress.com/

    Report Post »  
  • THX-1138
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:21pm

    Headshot? Execution.

    Report Post » THX-1138  
    • ENIGMA28724
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:15pm

      No, I would guess just a lucky shot [so to speak]. Mcneil was probably aiming for center mass as most are trained to do. If Epp was charging at him it is likely he lowered his head, just like a bull. His head just got in the way of what would have been a chest hit.

      Report Post »  
  • sarnold51
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:21pm

    If they want a comparison here is one in Florida…

    http://leestranahan.com/george-zimmerman-trevor-dooley-stand-your-ground-hypocrisy

    Report Post » sarnold51  
  • sarnold51
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:18pm

    Why didn’t they point to this case in Florida???

    http://leestranahan.com/george-zimmerman-trevor-dooley-stand-your-ground-hypocrisy

    Report Post » sarnold51  
  • roostercogburn
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:17pm

    So the lib tards are trying to stir up trouble again, what is the background of all these folks involved, and did anyone trustworthy witness any of this, I would like to see how the billing was going, was this guy invited over to get paid for a bill and then executed so they didn’t have to pay, lots of things could have happened here.

    Report Post » roostercogburn  
  • ronin_6
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:10pm

    Well I’ve said it many times before. Its not about affording the firearm the ammo or the training to use it. Its about being able to afford the ten years of litigation you will be facing if use the dang thing.

    Report Post » ronin_6  
  • J3ff
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:01pm

    It sounds like McNeil was imprisoned for something that he should have had every right to do, defend himself, his family and his property. Sounds like the left is now defending Zimmerman rather than Martin. I do recognize the double standard that they are getting at, but Zimmerman’s case is not over so we do not yet know the end result. Zimmerman could end up in prison as well. Then we have two men who should have never been charged with a crime actually behind bars for defending themselves.

    Report Post »  
    • Ruler4You
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:10pm

      If George Zimmerman were Black, he’d be wearing Trayvons® sneakers. And that would be the end of the whole sinking mess.

      Black folks are killing each other EVERY STINKING DAY for sneakers, hankies, hoodies, T-shirts, underwear, petty jealousies you name it. If it wasn’t for this guy (not EVEN white) being ‘light’ skinned this wouldn’t even be an issue.

      Report Post » Ruler4You  
    • PossumRoadkill
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:11pm

      I agree. This should have been a clear cut case. They need to let this man go.

      Report Post » PossumRoadkill  
    • hidden_lion
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:24pm

      I agree, two wrongs don’t make a right. They should be working to get McNeil out of jail and helping to keep Zimmerman safe. But, the left doesn’t care about peoples rights in the end.

      Report Post » hidden_lion  
    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 6:01pm

      The Left does not want ordinary people defending themselves as it flys in the face of their no guns narrative in the first place. They teach people that if you ever use a gun justified or not, your going to jail. Even if the law is on your side, you have the political element to deal with if your attacker happens to esp be Black. This case makes us all feel double fearly of pulling the trigger on a Black even if that Black is attempting to kill us no questions about it.

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
  • Jethro212
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:00pm

    How well does it go over if you hold a knife to a cop? You get shot? Yes you do. Seems the bad guy is dead and the good guy is in prison.

    Report Post »  
    • Thors Hammer
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:04pm

      If you look back through many thousands of cases, I’m sure you can find many similar situations to the Zimmerman one. But when you look more closely you see this different, or that different, and it ends up being totally different in the long run. That’s why each case must be judged independently, and on its own merit.

      Report Post »  
    • roostercogburn
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:13pm

      How can you hold a knife up to a person if it’s closed and in your pocket?

      Report Post » roostercogburn  
  • Popp40
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:59pm

    Hold on….if they want an example of “what if George Zimmermann” was black then they just need to look at the situation that happened in Phoenix AZ with Daniel Adkins…..here is a link

    http://imkane.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/unarmed-mentally-disabled-white-hispanic-fatally-shot-by-black-man/

    Report Post »  
  • Brasil2520
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:57pm

    I looked up Leah Ward Sears, yup you guessed it – black female, Jefferson Davis is rolling in his grave.

    Now I see why the south fought the north, too avoid this type of travesty of justice, a black female as the Chief Justice of the Georgia Supreme Court, proof the world is upside down.

    Report Post » Brasil2520  
    • Walkabout
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:36pm

      Says the sacripanta.

      Report Post »  
    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:58pm

      We are going to end up being over represented by Blacks in our local, State and Federal Government…how is that fair?

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
    • Brasil2520
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 6:38pm

      WALKABOUT – Ah yes, the race traitor, mulatto lover. You must love to see a white male getting beat down. Traitor !

      CHIEFGEORGE – Just wait till America becomes like South Africa or Zimbabwe where whites are represented by a all black government, crime statistics in S.A. since the fall of the white government show crime is worse even for blacks things are worse, this is the new black world my friend : ‘ (

      Report Post » Brasil2520  
    • Walkabout
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 8:11pm

      I wouldn’t be surprised if the Brasil2520 was from the state of Bahia & wasn’t white.

      Report Post »  
  • let us prey
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:55pm

    Here is the similar case. Look up Roderick Scott killing Christopher Cervini. This case was in Ny.

    Report Post » let us prey  
  • republic2011
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:48pm

    Even with the differences, I think Martin should be acquitted. Put yourself in his shoes and think what you would do if someone held a knife to your child, ignored a warning shot (something I am not fond of, but that is another topic), and was quickly running at you with possible intent to do harm. The criminal justice system in this country needs to be overhauled. There is no telling what I would do to someone that held a knife to my child.

    Report Post »  
    • grimmy
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:15pm

      @Republic2011.
      The thing is, how do you know he held a knife to the kids head, considering the only other witness to the whole thing, is dead……

      Report Post »  
  • pwatkins
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:45pm

    Doesn’t even compare. The only reason it was dug up is bc he was black. McNeil‘s was second degree and Zimmerman’s was stand your ground.

    Report Post »  
  • circleDwagons
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:43pm

    I don’t remember Sharpton or Jackson speaking out on this case. McNeil can’t be black.

    Report Post » circleDwagons  
  • commonsenseguy
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:41pm

    just another bull sh*t spin from the left, i hope that they will end up eating all the bull sh*t they have been spewing out, by the way where is shapton,jackson and the rest of the so cal civil; rights people at,i don‘t don’t here a word from about the blacks beating the heck out of whites in the name of justice for trayvon martin, o that’s right, black on white, not a hate crime, but white on black,well, look out.the left { ******** } are just a bunch of two faced sh*t eating idiots,i can’t wait to see them all eat the bull sh*t they are spewing.

    Report Post »  
  • Master.Debater
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:41pm

    So, if it is the Left’s contention that McNeil was wrongfully convicted, then by demanding prison for Zimmerman or violence in the streets, their position is that two wrongs make a right.

    Report Post » Master.Debater  
    • SgtB
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:21pm

      That’s what it sounds like. Personally, I have little knowledge of this 2005 case, but from what was listed here, it sounds like Epp was attacking a man on his own private property and wouldn’t leave when asked. I don’t that that conviction sounds right. Just like I don’t think that the Jerome Ersland case was decided right. But when you take away the RIGHT of a JURY to make up its own collective mind and you treat them like children who have to be told what is legal and illegal, you entirely bankrupt the whole system. The reason we have juries is to take the decision making away from the “legal professionals” and place it into the hands of your peers who have a more objective and personable point of view than a crooked judge who is conspiring with the jail system to keep someone rolling in the dough.

      Report Post » SgtB  
    • lawrench
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 4:25pm

      While I agree with your assesment, I think what the left is trying to say is that Black people or African Americans cannot get justice in this country. While if you only look at race, it does appear to be true. But if you look past race, there are too many differences to make actual comparisons. Do I agree that Mr. McNeil should be imprisoned? No I do not. I do not live in Georgia and can only make a judgement from what I read. There seems to be 12 jurors that believed that he should be found guilty and jailed, if you are looking at race for decisions, what was the jury make up of that jury? I will be interested in the trial of Zimmerman, if only to see if politics or facts decide the case.

      Report Post » lawrench  
    • ENIGMA28724
      Posted on April 25, 2012 at 5:22pm

      Having been present as a law enforcement officer in court proceedings, I have been appalled at evidence that the jury was not allowed to see or hear, seemingly with without any valid reason. I used to think that court proceedings were a search for the truth in the matter at hand, but have come to believe in quite a few cases the the outcome was preordained from the beginning. Exculpatory as well as guilt confirming evidence gets thrown out regularly.

      Report Post »  
    • cemerius
      Posted on April 26, 2012 at 9:18am

      There is NOTHING in the left’s bag-o-tricks that contains a shread of common sense! ONLY what they “feel” should be right at the moment and ALL minorities are victims no matter what…….

      Report Post » cemerius  
  • cessna152
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:39pm

    Sorry, but McNeil did exactly what I would have done. Stand your ground or not, someone is threatening my child and myself on my property I would try for a peaceful resolution as McNeil did then it’s time for self defense. He gave many warnings for this man to back off and he did not..Epp actually came at him faster. Sorry, self defense and not guilty!

    Report Post » cessna152  
  • Echelon
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:37pm

    Remove the race factor – guy in Georgia got a bad rap and should be released immediately. Zimmerman on the other hand will have to play out in the courts but because of the “Stand your ground” currently in effect, and no witnesses, George should walk as well. Plan and simple.

    Report Post » Echelon  
  • lawrench
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:36pm

    Interesting article. However, trespassing is still trespassing. I feel Mr. McNeil still has legal standing to be freed. However, we do not know the facts about to Zimmerman/Martin case to make a judgement. Lets see what is presented in court before making comparisons between the two cases.

    Report Post » lawrench  
  • Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
    Posted on April 25, 2012 at 3:33pm

    Interesting in the differences and comparisons for both cases. Let Zimmerman have his day in the courts and God grant him his life, for too many right now are calling for his death.

    Report Post » Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}  
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