Faith

Why Are Young Evangelicals (Almost) Just as Sexually Active as Non-Believers?

Below, see the safe sex and abstinence ad put out by the Candie’s Foundation (featuring Bristol Palin and “The Situation”).

Christians are known for believing that sex is something best saved for marriage. But research over the past few years seems to indicate that young evangelicals are almost just as sexually active as their non-believing counterparts.

This subject has been studied numerous times, with the latest discussion on the matter coming in the October issue of the Relevant, an evangelical Christian magazine geared toward young people. In an article, entitled “(Almost) Everyone’s Doing It,” Tyler Charles examines several studies that shed light on the sexual activity of single Christians.

Among the research mentioned in the article is a December 2009 study from the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy. CNN has more on its findings:

While the study’s primary report did not explore religion, some additional analysis focusing on sexual activity and religious identification yielded this result: 80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex – slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.

Evangelical Christians Almost Just as Sexually Active as Non BelieversWorld Magazine also tackled this difficult issue in 2007, with Gene Edward Veith writing:

…there is evidence that evangelical teenagers on the whole may be more sexually immoral than non-Christians. Statistically, evangelical teens tend to have sex first at a younger age, 16.3, compared to liberal Protestants, who tend to lose their virginity at 16.7. And young evangelicals are far more likely to have had three or more sexual partners (13.7 percent) than non-evangelicals (8.9 percent).

Veith goes on to explain that, though the majority go against their own beliefs on the matter, eight in 10 teens who claim that they’ve been “born again” believe that sex outside of the realm of marriage is morally wrong. Here, an intriguing divide between personal values and actions can be seen.

These numbers and proportions are likely startling to organizations and Christians, alike, who are working fervently to try and encourage young people to hold off on sex. But with social roles changing and with Americans marrying later in life, holding off seems to be something that even Christians are struggling to do.

According to Relevant, sex in popular culture is another issue hampering Christian teens and young adults. On a daily basis, almost every medium reinforces the idea that sex is fun, pleasurable and should simply be engaged in at will. This saturation has made it easier for young Christians, like their non-believing counterparts, to fall into temptation.

Below, see a promo for LifeWay’s “True Love Waits” campaign, which encourages young people to wait before having sex:

Examining this issue is important for churches and parents, alike. Considering the overwhelming presence of sexual content in media as well as the collective acceptance of pre-marital sex in mainstream society, fighting against this grind will certainly be an uphill battle.

(H/T CNN)

Comments (521)

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  • Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:41am

    One main reason has been the destruction of the family unit in marriage, where society has put the emphesis on the “lone parent” who is superman or supewoman, and the latch key kids of this generation. Pressures in society and a failure to make the message and morales and values in the churches of simple and clear presentation to the youth of today…something I have seen all too often.

    Report Post » Snowleopard {gallery of cat folks}  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:25am

      Most of our so called churches are nothing more than social clubs. Very few preachers actually open the book and preach the word, and preaching on sin is almost a lost art.

      Baptist churches across the nation have been moving left for a good while. When you try to look and sound like the world, you will act like the world

      I can walk into a Baptist church about anywhere in America, and in less than 30 seconds, I will tell you if it is a real deal God fearing church, or the new wave people pleasing lib church.

      The first thing I look at, is how the women dress. Not the visiting women, but the pastor’s wife, the deacon’s wives, and regular attending women. If most are wearing pant suits, you have a lib social club, not a church.

      I then look at the pastor. If he is waring a golf shirt, it is a new wave church

      Next I look at Bibles. If it is the NIV, it is a new wave lib church. Once the women start wearing the pants, there are two things they want changed real quick, first they get rid of the KJV, then they get rid of the old song hymn books.

      Next, I look up to the front of the church. If it has the six foot tall speakers, electric guitars, drums… then it is a lib church, that likes to rock the congregation with it so called contemporary music (just rock by another name).

      Last, I look at children. Children in an old fashion Baptist church, will re respectful, and look the part. Lib church kids look just like the wold. You can especially see the differenc

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Eliasim
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:29am

      Yes, you are correct, but there is much more to it than just that they have belittled the sacred family. They have belittled marriage, but why have they been able to belittle marriage? Because they have belittled and erased the true meaning of marriage, in that they have all but erased the spiritual meaning. Think about it: why does Jesus refer to himself as the bride-groom? Spirit. The youth is having sex because they are desperate to fill a spiritual void. That void is the lack of understanding. Therefore Jesus is the bride-groom and “The people” is his “The church” and the church is his wife. And “The church” doesn’t mean it has to be an organized church, but that those whom his spirit has gone to in the form of invisible rivers. Therefore Jesus said that if you even lust after your neighbor you have committed adultery, because you have allowed your spirit to cheat on Jesus. And because Jesus is the bride-groom and the people his wife, then the people are one woman, and Jesus one man. And we are to be doing on earth as it is in heaven and so a marriage is between one man and one woman on earth. Therefore Evangelicals are having more sex because Jesus does not know them, because they don’t know Jesus, even though they say they know Jesus. But how can they know Jesus when they will not question in their heart why Jesus is called the Bride-groom? How can I cure a blind-man, meaning one whom knows not the things I speak of? By spitting on the ground, twirl mud around a

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    • Eliasim
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:35am

      Continued:
      Twirling mud around a stick, and therefore you will see and understand that as I spit on the ground you will see how the rib was taken from Adam. If Jesus is Adam, then Jesus spitting on the ground is the dynamics of how the rib was taken from him. And if you say this can not be so, and you also say to me you are not blind – then your sin remains.

      Report Post »  
    • JRook
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:37am

      It is far more simple than that. It is about one’s public and private face. My gauge has always been the extent to which a person promotes their public face. If they promote it loudly then it is a fabrication and a front. They are not what they profess to be. If they are reserved and, for the most part, show their beliefs and moral character through their actions. I have found they are genuine. It’s easy to be a believer in Church or in a pray meeting. It is easy to make moral judgements about other people’s lives. It is easy to rationalize with the everyone sins line and repent after the fact. Like most things people should walk the walk for 10 years before they even consider professing it or elevating themselves to a status where they judge others. As my father would say, “whether you steal $1 or $1 million, you are still a thief”. Rationalizations are lies of convenience and self indulgence.

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:40am

      @ the marriage issue

      I think it’s more the opportunity to have sex without any noticeable consequences (ie, pregnancy). As for marriage being under attack, I agree; ever since the concept of divorce became common and accepted, marriage has been in trouble.

      @Rangerp
      Those are some interesting views… although I’m not sure how “rock” music is anti-Christian. The “old” songs were once new too, after all. As for the Bible version, King James Versions is pretty bad as far as translations go. I replied more to your original post on the second page; suffice it to say KJV is great for the underlying message but lousy if you want to know the literal words.

      Report Post »  
    • swsb6x
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:56am

      @Rangerp
      Oh yeah your right Jesus did say “By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you’re a women and don’t wear pants, if you don’t wear a golf shirt, if you carry a KJV bible, if keep your old hymn books, if you don’t have any speakers, if don’t like contemporary music and if you have perfect obedient children.
      Oh, no , wait a minute what he really said was, ““By this all will know that you are My disciples if you have love for one another.” John 13:25 (NKJV)

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    • drdave57
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:04pm

      If a pastor’s wife is wearing “pantsuits” and the pastor is wearing a “golf shirt”, then it is a new wave church? WOW!! Where in the world do you get that from? There is NO Biblical mandate for that.
      You should check out MY Church..it is so Biblically conservative that YOU would be uncomfortable..but we have NO such dress code THAT is man-made!

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    • NeoFan
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:06pm

      When your doctrine teaches that after one prayer, one work, one ordanance, you are forever saved no matter what you do and also teaches that
      refraining from relations is a “work” and all works are as filthy rags then what to you expect. Saved forever and what you do does not matter because
      your actions are only filthy rags? Well theres your answer.

      Report Post »  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:10pm

      Yo Rangerp:
      Say it ain’t so….Kjv… everybody else is going to hell.
      I work with teenagers within one block of what was the largest H.S. east of the Mississippi River-over 5000 students and a M.S of 1500 students 2 blocks away. A FIELD OF HARVEST. Some of what you say is COMPLETELY wrong… no disrespect yo.
      I could continue………!

      Report Post »  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:18pm

      PROBLEM IS SIMPLE… we no longer believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God. Genesis being a very important aspect of that. The children are compromised because WE as adults have compromised. They see us and have become such.

      How many bible verses should I throw about……………?

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:19pm

      @Locked
      If you want the original words, then you will have to learn to read Greek and Hebrew. If you want a more accurate translation, then you will have to stick to the KJV. The translators relied on Erasmus’ Textus Receptus. He used the Carney Greek, that the original texts were wrote in Carney. Your other versions are going to come from the less accurate Westcott and Hort’s versions, where the classical Greek from Alexandria were used.

      On rock music being anti Christian. If you want a friendly debate on the topic, I will give you one. I will tell you up front, that there is no one on the blaze that will out debate me on this topic and win. Rock music is anti-Christian, and always has been.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:30pm

      @drdave57
      I did not mention a dress code. Just speaking from experience. Notice I did not quote Bible on that, just my opinion based off what I have seen. Liberal churches always get rid of the KJV, and generally git rid of old fashioned music, and go with the new wave contemporary.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:36pm

      @4truth2all
      “Yo Rangerp:
      Say it ain’t so….Kjv… everybody else is going to hell.”

      Those are your words, not mine, nor are they Biblical. Going to hell is based on the rejection of Jesus as Savior, not a Biblical translation.

      I am just stating an opinion. I generally find that liberal churches that preach soft feel good messages, always go away from the KJV. The old fashioned churches that still preach on sin and preach convicting messages are generall the churches that go with the KJV.

      Just an opinion, and you can have your own opinion.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • GhostOfJefferson
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:43pm

      I respectfully disagree Snow. The reason this is happening is because it has always been happening. Human beings are, have been, and will always be sexual creatures. There was as much tomfoolery going on in the year 1245 A.D. as there is today, the difference being that people kept somewhere more quiet about it than they do now. Even a casual reading of any of the Masque’s or plays from, again, the 1200′s or even Chaucer show a vibrant sexuality amongst people who were, dare I say, far more emesshed in the Christian faith than most anybody alive today.

      To say “Christians believe” and “Christians do” is a bit silly if you ask me. Christians also ostensibly believe in following the Prince of Peace and in not engaging in violence as part of their core principles, yet for some reason fall back on that old pagan love of bloodshed at every opportunity (though some try to justify it with sophistry, as did Saint Thomas Aquinas for example). This isn’t impugning Christians, I believe strongly that the vast majority of people are incapable of following most philosophies, regardless of how benign (or conversely, evil). We just pay lip service most of the time (with some rare exceptions I’ll grant). It’s a human condition thing I guess.

      Report Post » GhostOfJefferson  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:49pm

      @Locked

      On Rock Music.

      Please fill in the blank for me. Drugs, sex, and _________.?

      If you guessed Rock and Roll, you guess correctly. Why do you supposed those three are linked together? I can tell you. They are linked by rebellion. 1 Samuel 15:23 (KJV) “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. The term “rock and roll” was slang for having sex in the back seat of a car. The driving rhythmic beat of rock music leads to sex and other immorality. Rock music is one of the doors in which people get into the occult. How many of the so called greats of Rock killed themselves by drugs? (Hendrix, Morrison, Elvis, Joplin…). A number of rock artist (Hendrix being one) traveled to Africa to study Voo Doo beats, to incorporate the Satan worship aspect of their music into his.

      Enough of my rambling, Let me borrow a bit from David Cloud’s work, and give it straight from the mouths of the rockers themselves.

      “I’m free to do what I want any old time” (Rolling Stones).

      “The main ingredients in rock are … sex and sass” (Debra Harry, Hit Parader, Sept. 1979, p. 31).

      “Rock is the total celebration of the physical” (Ted Nugent, rock star, Rolling Stone, Aug. 25, 1977, pp. 11-13).

      “That’s what rock is all about–sex with a 100 megaton bomb, the beat!” (Gene Simmons of the rock group Kiss, interview, Entertainment Tonight, ABC, Dec. 10, 1987).

      “Rock and roll’s corrupt degenerate lifestyle is fueled by the language of a certa

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:49pm

      Yo Rangerp;
      Only going by your implications, also was only asking the question. I certainly respect your opinion, LETS try to keep to the truth. Being involved in ministry that puts me in contact with MANY pastors and churches I don’t know of any them go from the KJV and know that ALL of them are GOD fearing sola scriptura… keeping to the truth of the Word. I have a KJV, mostly use the NIV – have 5 varoius versions……blessings

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:54pm

      Rock music continued

      “Rock and roll’s corrupt degenerate lifestyle is fueled by the language of a certain kind of music” (Leonard Seidel, Face the Music, Springfield, VA: Grace Unlimited Productions, 1988).

      “At the very least, rock is turning sex into something casual” (James Connor, Newsweek, May 6, 1985).

      “Sex has been rock music’s number one message since the medium was born” (Why Knock Rock? P. 67).

      “The whole Beatles idea was to do what you want … do what thou wilst, as long as it doesn’t hurt somebody” (John Lennon, cited by David Sheff, The Playboy Interviews with John Lennon and Yoko Ono, p. 61).

      “The best rock & roll music encapsulates a certain high energy–an angriness–whether on record or onstage. That is, rock & roll is only rock & roll if it’s not safe. … Violence and energy–and that’s really what rock & roll’s all about” (Mick Jagger, as told to Mikal Gilmore, Night Beat, p. 87).

      “The truth is that rock ‘n’ roll is a moral hemlock. It is by nature a music of demonic rebellion and protest. Drugs and sex are its arsenal” (David Noebel, The Legacy of John Lennon, p. 19).

      “Rock ‘n’ roll is all sex. One hundred percent sex” (Debbie Harry of the rock band Blondie, cited by Carl Belz, “Television Shows and Rock Music,” as it appeared in The Age of Communication, William Lutz, Goodyear Publishing Company, 1974, p. 398).

      “The themes of rock ‘n’ roll include rebellion, homosexuality,

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Justathinkin
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:01pm

      @Rangerrp,

      Your assessment of churches is not at all correct.

      Church is not about how serious and scared we can be while worshiping the Lord. It is about coming together, in fellowship, and praising God. Just like they did at the beginning churches where people didn’t dress up(because they had no fancy clothing and it wasn’t all about image) and children were allowed to sing praise to God as well. We are supposed to worship God like children do, children do not do things in muted tones with extreme somberness, they run and jump and shout their Joy to the Lord.

      How you judge others, you will be judged by God. How do you know all of this better than the rest of us? Do you have a direct line to God that the rest of us don’t have? Are you going to be sitting next to Jesus on Judgment Day?

      Some of us go to churches where we seek to have the “first church” experience. Where we all feel the fellowship and connection the early believers had. We come as we are and look to God for forgiveness, we don’t judge each other by appearance and we show each other the Love that Jesus has commanded us to show. That has nothing to so with which version of the Bible is used or how we sing praise to the Lord. That has to do with what is in our hearts and what we speak to each other and how we treat each other.

      Your type of judgment is what deterred me from my God and my Savior for so long. I will pray thet your heart opens to loving like Jesus.

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:03pm

      @4Truth

      Pull out that NIV and look up these verses. Pull out a KJV and look them up.

      Why do you suppose the NIV Translators decided to take out verses (or leave off portions) that speak to the diety of Jesus Christ?

      Matthew 17:21
      Matthew 18:11
      Matthew 23:14
      Mark 7:16
      Mark 9:44 & 46
      Mark 11:26
      Mark 15:28
      Luke 17:36
      Luke 23:17
      John 5:3b & 4
      Acts 8:37
      Acts 15:34
      Acts 24:7
      Acts 28:29
      Romans 16:24
      1 John 5:7

      You will notice, In my original post, I spoke of looking for a Bible preaching church. In the military, I move around, and have to look when I get to a new place. I have learned a bit in my searches.

      I never claimed pants on women is the path to hell. I do beleive I can walk in a church, look around, and be very accurate in some predictions based on what I see in less than a minute. If that offends, then let it offend.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:05pm

      On Rock Music contnued

      “The themes of rock ‘n’ roll include rebellion, homosexuality, satanism, the occult, drugs, murder, suicide, incest, vulgarity, sadomasochism, anti-patriotism and above all, free sex” (Fletcher Brothers, Rock Report, Lancaster: Starburst Publishing, 1987).

      “… the whole idea of rock ‘n’ roll is to offend your parents” (Rock drummer King Coffey, The Truth about Rock, p. 30).

      “Its admirers want to make rock appealing by making it respectable. The thing can’t be done. Rock is appealing because it’s vulgar … Rock is the quintessence of vulgarity. It’s crude, loud, and tasteless” (Robert Pattison, The Triumph of Vulgarity, 1987, preface, p. 4).

      “Rock concerts are the churches of today. Music puts them on a spiritual plane. All music is God” (Craig Chaquico, Jefferson Airplane guitarist, Why Knock Rock?, p. 96).

      “[Our music is intended] to change one set of values to another … free minds … free dope … free bodies … free music” (Paul Kantner of the Jefferson Airplane, cited by Ben Fong-Torres, “Grace Slick with Paul Kantner,” The Rolling Stone Interviews, 1971, p. 447).

      “At base and at its best, rock ‘n’ roll is a celebration of human sensuality” (Gail Pellert, Christian Rock, New York: Gannett, 1985, p. 23).

      “… rock ‘n’ roll is more than just music–it is the energy center of a new culture and youth revolution” (advertisement for Rolling Stone magazine).

      “There is no ques

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:09pm

      @Rangerp

      So you’re saying that rock music with an entirely Christian theme is promoting sex, rebellion, and homosexuality. I hope you realize how ridiculous you are sounding. I understand the background of rock just fine; just as I‘m sure you understand the background of the Anglican church and how the King James’ version was commissioned based on the ideology of founding a new sect just to get a new wife.

      I’m curious how you can say with one hand that “if you want the original wording you need to read the original translation” and then insist that any version of the Bible other than KJV isn’t legitimate. You realize it was poorly translated and worded to solidify the Church of England’s ideology, right? As said, the message is the important part; the wording is simply poorly done in that translation.

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    • TH30PH1LUS
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:19pm

      MY OPINION:

      Western Civ has trended away from Christianity and principles of simple goodness/ethics/character, towards money/power/fame as ultimate personal goals. EXAMPLE: earlier generations raised people of 15-18 y/o to be full-blown adults, self-supporting, marry & begin a family before enetering their 20′s. NOW adolescence is stretched out to 30! Heck, I know people old enough to be MY parents who are immature.

      PROBLEM: human biology/physiology was not made for the culture we’ve created. Putting off marriage until 30‘s and 40’s and pushing child-bearing to the limits of medical possibility ALL IN THE NAME of prolonging our childhood and extending opportunities for self-interest IN MY OPINION play into this statistic.

      Our bodies were made by God to awaken to these desires at certain ages, but our society has prolonged the education process, and brainwashed generations into thinking that it’s good to be immature for as long as possible. So, instead of being prepared mentally and emotionally to handle these things like adults, now we have created yet another set of problems.

      Report Post » TH30PH1LUS  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:30pm

      Yo Rangerp:
      I feel your quotes speak to intent, not the music in of itself.
      If I give you the gift of a baseball bat, I do not give it to you for harm against another, I give it to you to enjoy playing a game. Music is the same… being a keyboard player that grew up with rock and roll, The Stones. Led Zepplin, ELP and such; I still like the music… the words not so much. I still play and I like to play hard driving powerful music… now however. I use it for God’s glory. In may ways: same music different purpose.

      I am free in Christ…. Paul says all things are permissible (obviously not sin).
      You are trying to put chains on people that God does not.
      I for one, will not have them…. blessings

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:46pm

      @Locked and 4Truth

      There is no such thing, nor will there ever bee any such thing as “Christian Rock”.

      Above I gave you a pretty good background of rock, and gave more than enough direct speak from the mouths of the rock musicians (I can give you pages and pages more). Rock music by definition, is that music that is of satan.

      How can you turn around and claim you are going to make it Christain? It would be like me putting a whiskey still in my back yard, and calling the product “Jesus Juice”. No matter what you call it, it is still whiskey “strong drink”. You may argue that the young people love it, and it motivates and brings them in. It is still whiskey. Changing the name does not change the product or the effect. Remember when Moses went up to get the Ten Commandments? The chilren of Israel decided to have a giant sex party and got naked. What did their music sound like to Moses? If memory serves me correctly, it was as the “sound of war”. What music would that be?

      Who is the only Angel in the bible that dealt with music in Heaven (Ezekiel 28:13 )? He knows a bit about music, and how to use it.

      Find me an example where Jesus or his desciples used that which was popular with kids, or the world to win the lost. The gospel of old works as well now, as it did back then. Go back to the very reason or topic of this article. Kids of todays church are acting like the kids of the world and having just as much sex. I gave some reasons, You

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:57pm

      “It would be like me putting a whiskey still in my back yard, and calling the product “Jesus Juice”. No matter what you call it, it is still whiskey “strong drink””

      … or like using grape juice for communion instead of wine because we don’t want to give alcohol to kids?

      Your comments make me think you’ve never listened to Christian rock; or perhaps that you think the music in your church is from 2000+ years ago. I’ll give you a hint: it’s not. What you pray and sing is the same exact thing as what you rail about: not “traditional” music.

      I happen to enjoy Christian rock; “Our God is an Awesome God” is a fantastic song, for example. Not all of it is good (I dislike Christian country for example; country music in general is hit-or-miss, and when the stories becoming crooning about finding Jesus at the bottom of a bottle I just start rolling my eyes), but that’s the same with any music. No way it’s Satanic though; no more than saying that preaching the Word in a language other than Aramaic is Satantic.

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    • TH30PH1LUS
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:58pm

      @ RANGER

      I usually agree with your positions, but I humbly remind you that in regards to MUSIC, even many of the oldest hymns were just drinking songs that were plagerized and re-worded with Christian lyrics.

      IMO, one of the great assests of Christianity has been it’s ability to “redeem” fallen aspects of societies. It is equally powerful in any culture or time. Salvation is not offered to those who serve Christ, but to those who are served BY Christ. Religion is about mankind offering the correct service to the god or gods, and leaves them wondering if they did enough. But Christianity is about what God has already done for us.

      In any case, please be careful. Christ said: “By their fruits you shall know them.” Stick around long enough to observe people’s behaviors. That’s how you really know.

      If you don’t think drums and guitars should be used in church, that’s fine to have that opinion. Just don‘t make opinions about musical style a judgment of someone’s genuine faith.

      “As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” (ACTS 21:25)

      Peace be with you, brother!

      Report Post » TH30PH1LUS  
    • fancydancy
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:03pm

      TO: RANGERP
      You may be right about liberal or conservative churches but condemnation kills and if you recall the woman caught in adultery…Jesus said who are your accusers after He had written in the dirt? Then followed it with “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” The men who could have condemned her were sinners and the ONE who could condemn her, wouldn’t. Grace is Jesus. Legalism is the law and no man including the rich young ruler could keep it even though he said he did while having money as his god as he couldn’t give away any of it. It isn’t about sinning…we all do. It is about focusing on Jesus who died for our sins and when we accept His finished work on the cross, we focus on Him, not sin. None of us can stay righteous without having Him within our heart an that also means loving our fellow man. Grace focuses on the new covenant. The law is the old covenant. Listen to Joseph Prince and discover what unmerited favor really means.
      http://www.amazon.com/Unmerited-Favor-Joseph-Prince/dp/1616385898/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1317232929&sr=8-3

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:06pm

      @Justathinkin

      The topic of this article is about young kids out of the church having sex like non believers.

      I gave some opinion on churches turning liberal, and gave some of what I think are quick indicators to whan a church has turned liberal

      You have changed the topic to “worship”.

      No where did I say there is a dress code for church. because Church is for worship of God, I believe in wearing the best you have to Church (that is only my opinion). No one said wearing pants sends you to hell.

      Look up the first time the word “worship” is used in the Bibile. Genesis 22 5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

      He was going up to sacrifice his own son. It was not exactly a clap your hands, hollar and shout, bust a move event. I would imagine going up to sacrifice your son is not the most pleasant of experiences.

      I do not argue that there is a place for praise, singing, and shouting. there is also a time to close your pie hole, and listen to the Word.

      Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • jay1975
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:06pm

      Rangerrp, “Why do you suppose the NIV Translators decided to take out verses (or leave off portions) that speak to the diety of Jesus Christ?”
      Because they were not found in the oldest texts and only later appeared after the words had been translated over and over and the translators most likely added in those parts. Mark is the oldest known gospel, written around 90 c.e. yet is given little regard while the gospel of John is deemed the most important one as it is the only one in which Jesus flat out claims divinity, yet reads like none of the other 3. Matthew, Mark and Luke likely all came from the same verbal source as as each gospel gets longer and more detailed than the one before it (if read in correct order), but John is pretty far off of the reservation in relation to the others. None of the gospels were written by anyone that actually knew Jesus, unless Mark lived to be around 80 or 90 years old, which was highly unlikely at the time. Further, if we were to take the literal words as true, Jesus should have returned during the 1st century, yet here we are, 20 centuries later and people are still claiming that we are in the end times.

      Report Post »  
    • Libertyluvnmomma
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:09pm

      Two words: Youth pastors- peer run church Statism. Churches have said “Parents leave the the church educating to professionals, like us” You don’t have to do a thing.
      Sound familiar?
      According to some studies youth groups have significantly contributed to the decline of young christians attending church. Why? Where do the go after they outgrow Youth group? Singles? then what. Church is to be a body of Christ. Even Sunday school is unscriptural.
      Fathers have been given the role of pastoring their families. But society proves over and over how much we don’t need them. Look at tv sitcoms. We only need Dad for the paycheck.

      Open your Bibles folks.
      We know so little we get unfleeced daily.
      But boy, it’s been a comfortable Christian walk.
      while your Bibles are open point me to the youth group section………..

      Report Post » Libertyluvnmomma  
    • americanfirst
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:14pm

      Interesting article.
      I’d say that the comments here have way to much potential for divisiveness in the church which is the last thing we need.
      The bigger question – w/out being divisive and still grown-ups about it is…
      how do YOU measure the results of your religion?
      A given is that the religious experience should be a transformational one, right? If at the end of the day it is not producing a change to your very natures at the core then it may be mature to conclude that this (fill in the blank here) is not producing it’s intended results. And if it isn’t producing results then what is the point? why invest all the time, money and energy…IF YOU’RE NOT COMMITTED TO CHANGE?
      Now that’s not an invitation to run away or to even to defend an undefendable point. Ultimately we each have the solemn responsibility to move DELIBERATELY towards our better selves (our divinity)and as parents to be governing influence in our children for their betterment and by extension to the human family (good stewardship). In that sense, with that kind of “ownership” your daily walk is then very literally a force for good.
      It’s more a question of whether we have the potential to be THAT honest. That brutally sincere.
      Go easy on yourselves – but go beyond your hope into making it your determination to choose the right in all you do. Once you get that and you don’t bicker with it anymore – pass it on. the responsibility is ultimately yours.

      Report Post »  
    • Fly Old Glory 24/7 365
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:14pm

      @Rangerp: dang, you have spent some time on this one. Some great posts by several here. All I know is kids act differently today than I did. We were scared around the girls, now they all just can’t wait to love and hug on each other. And I know how much trouble I got in without the hugging you see today. Throw in what the girls are wearing and I am thankful I am not a kid anymore. Way too tempting..

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:21pm

      Very Interesting.

      Notice again – The title of this is about church kids having sex like the non believers.

      I got poster after poster wanting to beat me up over Rock Music (Christian Rock)…. What I am not seeing, is you giving reasons why the so called church kids are having sex. It goes along with the Rock and the drugs (Drugs, Sex, and _________)

      What I do see, is you defending your rock music. I see not Bible verses for your love of Rock, what I do see, is “ I happen to enjoy Christian rock”, or “I like”. When does “I like” become the answer?

      Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

      Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • jay1975
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:26pm

      RANGERRP, why are believers having as much sex as us heathens? Because it is fun and feels good and the more you tell someone not to do something, the more they want to try it. How did prohibition work in the US? How’s that drug war going? You of all people should know about the forbidden fruit. By refusing to educate the youth about the facts of sex and the consequences, when you choose an abstinence only approach without full disclosure, you do not prepare kids to make the right decisions.

      Report Post »  
    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:27pm

      I think RP nailed it pretty good.

      When I hear pastors speak the self deprecating humor about how stupid men are to gain traction before they say anything else, then I know who is really incharge of the church….Women. It takes a real man filled with the Holy Spirit and sound biblical principals to take on the societies thinking today. Men of about 40 make good transitional preachers especially if they have paid attention to what has happened over the last 30 years. They have lived it, so they understand it well. I am speaking about how feminism, socialism, liberal thinking has tried to undermine the church and male headship. I heard our male pastor of about 42 years of age begin to speak in ways women and men have not heard before regarding the God to Man communications, Man (husband) to Woman (wife) communications then Man (father) to children leadership model that is the way God intended man to live and they can’t believe their ears. We took these things for granted and they were ripped out from underneath us in half a generation through feminist teachings. These teachings also have hurt the church in the way we live in this world. We seem to want it both ways. To live a sexually active life outside marriage and then while in the church pretend all is normal with the way we are living. It doesn’t work that way. God does not bless nor make your life more abundant if your serving two masters and not following his laws and living a repentant life.

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
    • DTOM_Jericho (Creator vindicator)
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:30pm

      Ranger you sound like a christian-pagan(all christians) that is arguing over translation. He promised to preserve His word, NOT translations. KJV is very bad and gets “easter” wrong in place of Passover. I see nobody can convince you of your logic and religion based on translations, from translations of translations. You may actually think that there was a Disciple called by the english name “james”? And that “jesus” is actually a translation? It’s not. Not even close to His name. That will probably set you off but all you have to do is read blaze comments and you will see clearly; one of the quickest and easiest insults in this culture is twisting someone’s name.

      Advocacy of a certain musical label is irrelevant, “rock n’ roll” whatever. Here is what your music should sound like according to a translation of Yeshua’s (“jesus”) word:

      Psalm 150
      Praise the LORD
      Praise God in his sanctuary;
      praise him in his mighty heavens.
      Praise him for his acts of power;
      praise him for his surpassing greatness.
      Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
      praise him with the harp and lyre,
      praise him with timbrel and dancing,
      praise him with the strings and pipe,
      praise him with the clash of cymbals,
      praise him with resounding cymbals.
      Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
      Praise the LORD

      Report Post » DTOM_Jericho (Creator vindicator)  
    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:31pm

      @Rangerp

      Matthew 16:18:
      “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this ROCK I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

      ;-)

      I also don’t see you quoting the Bible saying music is evil. It’s your own preconception, and that’s fine. It’s just helpful to acknowledge it.

      Report Post »  
    • ChiefGeorge
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:33pm

      Yea I dont think RP is saying ppl are going to hell for reading KJV. I think the spirit of what he wrote is that he can identify a church that is more about society than about the things of God. For that I am in agreement.

      Report Post » ChiefGeorge  
    • TH30PH1LUS
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:37pm

      RANGER,

      never my intention to beat you up over your post. My sincere apologies, brother. I did state earlier what my opinions were as to contributing factors to sexual behavior among believers. Bottom line for EVERY ONE OF US: our behavior must match our beliefs. If it doesn’t, there’s a problem.

      In general, the American Church has dropped the ball. Time to pick it back up!

      Report Post » TH30PH1LUS  
    • louise
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:41pm

      TH30PH1LUS,
      Your post is so right.

      Report Post » louise  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:41pm

      @Locked
      Drop back a verse or two. Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

      Peter’s acknowledgement that Jesus is the Son of the living God, is the “ROCK” spoken of in verse 18. This is what the Church is built on.

      The church was not built on “Rock and Roll”, and I even shudder to type that. Once again, Rock and roll is lumped with drugs and sex for a reason.

      Once again, the entire article is on why kids of the modern day church are having unmarried sex just like the non believing. You seem not to have an answer, but are only willing to defend your precious Rock Music. I see where you heart is. I also see why kids from the modern churches are having the sex that goes along with their music.

      Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, you will know which one you hit, when it begins to growl.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:50pm

      @ Locked

      “Rock‘n roll doesn’t glorify God. You can‘t drink out of God’s cup and the devil’s cup at the same time. I was one of the pioneers of that music, one of the builders. I know what the blocks are made of because I built them” (Little Richard, The Dallas Morning News, Oct. 29, 1978, p. 14A).

      “Listen, rock ‘n roll AIN’T CHURCH. It’s nasty business. You gotta be nasty too. If you’re goody, goody, you can’t sing or play it…” (Lita Ford of heavy metal group The Runaways, Los Angeles Times, August 7, 1988).

      “Rock ‘n’ roll is pagan and primitive, and very jungle, and that’s how it should be! The moment it stops being those things, it’s dead … the true meaning of rock … is sex, subversion and style” (Malcolm McLaren, punk rock manager, Rock, August 1983, p. 60).

      “Most of it [rock music] is used as a vehicle for anti-Christian propaganda” (Graham Cray, appendix to J. & M. Prince, Time to Listen, Time to Talk, cited in Pop Goes the Gospel, p. 86).

      “Rock music has got the same message as before. It is anti-religious, anti-nationalistic and anti-morality. But now I understand what you have to do. You have to put the message across with a little honey on it” (John Lennon, spoken not long before his death in 1980, Pop Goes the Gospel, p. 84).

      “Don’t listen to the words, it’s the music that has its own message. … I’ve been stoned on the music many times” (Timothy Leary, New Age guru and promoter of LSD, Politic

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:53pm

      “Rock music is sex and you have to hit them [teenagers] in the face with it” (Andrew Oldham, manager of the Rolling Stones, Time, April 28, 1967, p. 54).

      “Rock music has always held seeds of the forbidden. … Rock and Roll has long been an adversary to many of the basic tenets of Christianity” (Michael Moynihan, Lord’s of Chaos, p. x).

      “Although the music has changed over the years, the rebellious urges that created it remain the same. … I was reminded once more of the basic appeal of rock and roll–its irreverent, nose-thumbing quality” (Ellen Willis, TV Guide, January 1979, p. 15).

      “[The Rolling Stones] are raw, sloppy, savage, oppressively intense, base, bolsh, scurvy, mean, mesmerizing, cold, perverse, raunchy, decadent, and self-indulgent revolutionaries. … Their music is rugged, sinewy, insinuating … IT REFLECTS THEIR WAY OF LIVING” (Michael Ross, Rock Beyond Woodstock, p. 13).

      “Rock is visceral. It does disturbing things to your body. In spite of yourself, you find your body tingling, moving with the music. … To get into rock, you have to give in to it, let it inside, flow with it, to the point where it consumes you, and all you can feel or hear or think about is the music. … Such open sensuality” (Tom McSloy, rock music performer, “Music to Jangle Your Insides,” National Review, June 30, 1970, p. 681).

      “‘Rockandroll,’ itself a bluesmusic term for sex, suggested rebellion and abandon as much as it did a new styl

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:59pm

      “Rock ’n’ roll is synonymous with sex and you can’t take that away from it. It just doesn’t work” (Steven Tyler, Entertainment Tonight, ABC, Dec. 10, 1987).

      “Rock ‘n’ roll is sex. Real rock ‘n’ roll isn’t based on cerebral thoughts. It’s based on one’s lower nature” (Paul Stanley, cited by John Muncy, The Role of Rock, p. 44).

      “Rock ‘n’ roll marked the beginning of the revolution. … We’ve combined youth, music, sex, drugs, and rebellion with treason, and that’s a combination hard to beat” (Jerry Rubin, Do It!, 1970, pp. 19, 249).
      “After ten years of bland, brilliant music, we were back to what Rock ‘n’ Roll should be–nasty, crude, rebellious people’s music” (Tom Robinson, punk rocker, Dictionary of American Pop/Rock, p. 294).

      “[Rock music] is the strongest drug in the world” (Steven Tyler of the group Aerosmith, Rock Beat, Spring 1987, p. 23).

      “The present rock ‘n’ roll scene, Lennon’s legacy, is one giant, multi-media portrait of degradation–a sleezy world of immorality, venereal disease, anarchy, nihilism, cocaine, heroin, marijuana, death, Satanism, perversion, and orgies” (David Noebel, The Legacy of John Lennon, 1982, p. 15).

      The truth is that rock ‘n’ roll is a moral hemlock. It is by nature a music of demonic rebellion and protest. Drugs and sex are its arsenal” (Noebel, The Legacy of John Lennon, 1982, p. 19).
      “A new music emerged, again completely nonintellectual, with a

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:01pm

      “… fifties rock was revolutionary. It urged people to do whatever they wanted to do, even if it meant breaking the rules. … From Buddy the burgeoning youth culture received rock’s message of freedom, which presaged the dawn of a decade of seismic change and liberation. … Buddy Holly left the United States for the first time in 1958, carrying rock ‘n’ roll–the music as well as its highly subversive message of freedom–to the world at large. … laying the groundwork for the social and political upheavals rock ‘n’ roll was instrumental in fomenting in the following decade” (Ellis Amburn, Buddy Holly, pp. 4,6,131).

      “Mystery and mischief are the two most important ingredients in rock and roll” (Bono, cited in Rock Facts, Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and Museum, p. 12).

      “Sex, violence, rebellion—it’s all part of rock ‘n’ roll” (John Mellencamp, Larson’s Book of Rock, p. 170).

      “Rock ‘n’ roll is like a drug. When you’re singing and playing rock ‘n’ roll, you’re on the leading edge of yourself. You’re tryin’ to vibrate, tryin’ to make something happen. It’s like there’s somethin’ alive and exposed” (Neil Young, cited by Mickey Hart, Spirit into Sound).

      “Rock & roll is about striking out independently, not caring about your parents’ disapproval” (Pop Machine, quoted in “Metallica? OK, but we still don’t like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,” Chicago Tribune, Sept. 23, 2008).

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:04pm

      Everyday Glenn Beck is on the radio, railing against the revolutionaries. What he does not even realize, is who did the indoctrination. The Rock and Rollers preached the message of rebellion to the masses, and changed a nation. They have had more of a hand in the coming revolution that you can imagine.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • jay1975
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:08pm

      RANGERP, obviously you do not like rock. We get it. Don’t like it, don’t listen to it. You try to paint the ills of the nation as being the fault of music and you wonder why people are being turned off by your religion? Keep on preaching man, it’s because of people like you that I started to actually look at religion with open eyes and am no longer a part of any religion. Than you for showing me the way to enlightenment and leading me out of the dogmatic dark.

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:23pm

      @JAY1975

      “RANGERRP, why are believers having as much sex as us heathens? Because it is fun and feels good and the more you tell someone not to do something, the more they want to try it.”

      I think you nailed it. “if it feels good, do it” This is the message of humanism, it is also the message of Rock music. The church of today stopped preaching the word, and want to make people feel good. BAM!

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:36pm

      @Rangerp

      You… really hate rock music, don’t you? It’s a little creepy, truth be told, how much you’re obsessing over it. It’s fine: as said, you have your own views on it. But to label it Satanic because of the origins… it’s like saying jazz is stoner music. The origin differs from what it is today (same as how KJV isn’t just for Anglican theology any more). If good can’t come of evil, your own admission that you were one of the developers of modern rock leaves you in a predicament, I’d think.

      Report Post »  
    • schmite123oh
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:37pm

      @john1975 Ranger is making some good arguments, but i have no idea what you are talking about regarding the gospel of John. You are the first to question its authenticity in this way, which makes me SUPER suspicious of your statement. I see no Contradictions in his word to the Gospel, hence my confusement with your “off the reservation comment”

      Sincerely Suspicious of your post.

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:38pm

      JAY1975

      Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. James 1:27

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:39pm

      Society has taught sex is nothing but animal instinct, something every one does, and now is flaunted to children thru advertisement, tv shows, and basically everywhere you look. 

      Marriages are broken because these marriages were based on sex and nothing else. One of the adults looses interest and leaves. Happens everyday. A marriage based on sand never stands. 

      This shows how weak humans have become and to some degree disproves evolution in itself. We can not even control our sexual hormones let alone understand what they mean and how to teach our children about it. We have become that stupid and now tell our children “here’s a condom because your gonna do it anyway”. We are dumb.  

      Sex is the up most submission. Each time you have sex you give part of yourself to the person you are having sex with and you will be tied emotionally to that person for the rest of your life.  It’s called a soul tie and they are very hard to break. The more you have the more of an emotional wreck you are. 

      Yes, Christ can clear your sin BUT you must repent and stop that sin. Once you repent, you are a virgin in Christ, you are pure. The power of suggestion by the world influences us more then we even know. We must not be of this world.

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • old white guy
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:53pm

      we all want sex because it is a primal drive. i don’t care what you believe, when the hormones kick in you go for it.

      Report Post »  
    • TryingtoServe
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:53pm

      Wow RangerP…I’m glad Christ did not judge those with whom He came in contact with 2000 years ago by the clothes they wore into the synagogue; otherwise He’d have WASTED 3 years of ministry and His life would be but a footnote in history. I PRAY that NO ONE who calls himself or herself a Christ Follower would judge a church by its dress code or the size of its speakers (size really DOES matter, huh?) or the version of the Bible that it reaches out to its congregation with. I guess the fact that MY church encourages new attenders who might not have a bible at home to take the NIV bible from the seat in front of them home just makes us heretics. Yikes! And I didn’t even MENTION that we have seats instead of pews. Never mind that our entire pastoral staff DOES teach from the Word of God EVERY Sunday. PLEASE reconsider your narrow-minded remarks. I’ll pray for you specifically tonight…over my NIV study bible

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:58pm

      @Locked

      I told you in the beginning, you cannot debate me on rock music. Others did the home work, I just used their work. the unsaved, lost, heathen will laugh if they read these posts. They are not fooled, they listen to rock for a reason. It is the so called “modern Christians” that will try to argue.

      “I like” is about as far as you get in the argument. I cannot count the lost people I know that were into drugs, rock, …. got saved, and changed their dress, changed their language, and changed their music. I have never known of a lost person to get saved by listening to “rock”. Cannot count the number of back slide and worldly Christians that took their first steps in the wrong direction by starting to listen to rock music. Strange how that works.

      I am not a manuscript expert, but know enough that I prefer to use the KJV. Even if I had no knowledge on the difference in the geek texts that were used, I can see a trend. Liberal churches that do not preach on sin, have rock music in their services, have more problems with kids having sex, are humanist in nature, do not use the KJV. That is enough for me.

      Why do liberal churches have a disdain for the KJV?

      One more time. the article is about church kids having sex like the non believers. What churches are having this trend. is it the old fashioned independent churches that stayed with old fashioned hymns, the KJV, and modest dress, or is the new wave NIV churches, getting jiggy, and rocki

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • TH30PH1LUS
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 4:02pm

      Speaking of Christian music: I love this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3gbJGByIOE

      Report Post » TH30PH1LUS  
    • HerrBeck
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 4:07pm

      This thread has even more cooks than a normal Blaze thread. Nice work editorial staff. (I would work the Aliens angle next, or maybe a “back yard gold mine” story.)

      Why? Because the Evangelical movement has moved away from focusing on the things it should focus on, pure and simple.
      They should not concern themselves with politics or education. They should only concern themselves with their interpretations of God. Everything else they do detracts from that point. And to be serious, many of them, like Ranger Rick in this thread, are seriously deranged. Living in some weird version of reality that is just not going to work.
      But, with Evangelical children having so many children out of wedlock, thanks to the love shown championship breeders The Palins, there will always be more than enough to fill their giant mega-mart churches.

      Report Post » HerrBeck  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 4:08pm

      @TryingtoServe
      You completely missed the point, like many others.

      The topic of the article is about kids from evangelical churches having sex like non believers.

      I believe churches got away from preaching sin, and got into humanism (if it feels good, do it). As an example, I showed the trend in liberal churches in going with new translations, women wearing the pants (it is more than the pants themselves, a little play on words there also. Women took over the churches, men took the back seat – thus women wearing the pants).

      Nowhere did I call anyone a heretic, nowhere did I claim wearing pants sends people to hell. I did not talk about a dress code….

      I am confident, that I can pick up a KJV, NIV, NKJV… and show a lost person how to be saved.

      Once again, I believe if you look to the churches that stopped preaching on sin, brought in the rock music, you will find that they got rid of the KJV. It is a trend, and it coincides with young people from these churches having sex outside of marriage. That is the argument.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 4:10pm

      Yo Rangerp:
      There is no such thing as “rock” music. Rock is a title given by men that corrupt music.There is music. My point with the bat. Do you not know of David dancing before the Lord? Have you ever done a study of music as mentioned in the bible… I have. It‘s NOT the MUSIC thats evil it’s the people and purpose. My point of the bat, again.

      I am NOT here to argue, I am here to reason …please refer to TH30PH1lUS’s and LOCKED posts as they graciously address some of your statements that I would have.

      Concerning the verses you list… I went to the first three. They are not listed in my NIV. (Did not know this) However, there is a footnote and they are listed below. All my bibles are good study bibles and I have them TO compare. The first 3 did not speak to the diety of Christ, maybe some of the other ones do. My NIV teaches me very clearly on this issue and I am not going to get into a childish argurment of who’s/ which bible is better. I, to some extent understand the process at which the bible has been interpreted over the years.
      Concerning taking offence…great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them Psalm 165:119 (not KJV)
      I have listed some reasons on my posts… I am not hear to win.. I am hear for truth… if you got some, I’m good for it. List next post.

      Do you not know that Paul said a little wine is good for the stomach. I believe you put the egg before the chicken.
      I never said anything about women wearing pants

      Report Post »  
    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 4:12pm

      @Rangerp
      “I told you in the beginning, you cannot debate me on rock music. Others did the home work, I just used their work. the unsaved, lost, heathen will laugh if they read these posts.”

      Well, they might, but probably because you’re seeing it Satanic. To me it’s like calling a rock, er, boulder Satanic because it has the potential to roll down a hill and crash into someone. But it also has the potential to be used as the cornerstone of a house. Rock is nothing more than a music style to me; obviously that style has roots, but the music is nothing more than a tool. I suppose we could also compare it to a gun: it can defend, save, kill, or murder. It depends on how it’s used.

      But hey, that’s just my opinion. Thank you for sharing yours, it was very interesting :-)

      “Why do liberal churches have a disdain for the KJV?”

      As I’ve said, because it’s a poor translation based on a sect of Protestantism ironically founded on the topic of this article: sex outside of marriage.

      “What churches are having this trend.”

      Evangelical churches, according to the article. I wish it had broken it down by denomination or been applied to Christianity overall. It would be nice to know more.

      Report Post »  
    • scarebear83
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 4:16pm

      When you open up churches to be a social gathering and using mechanical instruments to make people “feel good” instead of not going beyond what is written then these problems increase. Do I think rock music should be used in worship? No. However in everyday life it can have some good advantages as long as the lyrics are clean (which believe it or not there are some rock bands out there who have clean songs). The Bible says we are to sing and make melody in our heart (Eph. 5:19). It‘s hard to sing with a trumpet to one’s mouth or to sing when only a soloist has the mic. I agree, rock music shouldn’t be used in worship neither should pianos, organs, or other mechanical instruments. One has to ask themselves, from what authority do they have to allow mechanical instruments? Does it come from the Bible or is it merely man’s authority to which it pleases him and not God?

      Report Post » scarebear83  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 4:19pm

      @Locked and Truth4

      I enjoyed the conversation. Thanks,
      Ranger P

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 4:23pm

      @Ranger P

      ****Applauding****

      Good job my friend. Stand in truth. 

      It is not the instruments, guitar, drums, etc but it is the reasoning for doing so. It is to mimic the world as some sinner would never attend Church unless we have music that is of the world. We are not to be of the world. We are to stand out, be different. 

      If one is singing to God using a harp or guitar, I’m can support that. If one is jamming out like Papa Roach or the Stones then I’m not so inclined to believe their singing for God but more to be worldly. There is a line and a good Pastor knows this line and advises those he leads appropriately. 

      Your personal assessment I agree with, especially on your observing skills. It’s a personal observation. What I find odd is we are to be humble before God. Many spend more on the clothing they wear to worship God then on the homeless man they pass going to Church. Keep up the good fight my friend. And don’t let others judging you on this board for your personal observations get at you. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 4:48pm

      Yo Rangerp:
      According to your train of thought every “style of music” is evil. Because blues, soul, bluegrass opera, country, classical every style of music has been corrupted by man… it’s what we do!
      Elton John played hymns, copied the style of hymns. You have many Christians here trying to reason with you… humility IS strength….

      To everything there is a season so turn, turn, turn …. know the song….. don’t remember who did it. the verses are in Ecclesastes. I LOVED THAT SONG AS A KID. Did not know until I grew up and read the bible and read those very words in it that that “rock” song was all those verses. Again the “BAT”.
      If YOU like a certain “STYLE” of service that‘s fine just don’t Play God and condemn mine. I actually go to a pretty conservitive church…. still sing hymns.
      Reasons for the mess
      1) bad preaching
      2) false preaching
      3) bad parenting
      4) the world
      5) lack of courage
      6) bad choice of friends
      7) no God in the schools

      I missed many and could list HUNDREDS of sub catagories under these catagories and bible verses for them all. I choose not to use my bible as a bat.
      I have spoken NOTHING in disrespect to you, nor out of anger. I try to let God be God and not judge others because they are different then me. Thank God there is only one me.
      “When in Rome do as the Romans do”.
      I am a no compromise no surrender….. keep it humble person. (at least trying)
      Peace.!

      Report Post »  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 5:07pm

      Yo Okie:
      My friend… I AM NOT judging Rangerp. I am the last with any right to do that. If it came across that way … not my intent and my sincere apologies to all.
      RangerP… I am glad to get to know you and others , and hope your statement that you enjoyed the conversation is sincere….peace…bro!

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 5:27pm

      4Truth2All

      I know you too well from conversing to believe you judge anyone. Same with Ranger P. You both state and hold your beliefs until you find ground to accept. Steel sharpens steel.  It was encouragement is all to another friend. Hope you had a great day! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 5:48pm

      @4truth2all and Okie

      On the “judge” thing. Seems these days folks get real scared to “judge”. I believe that the Bible ignorant use the “judge not” quote so much, that everyone gets scared.

      Judge everything I write, and do not mince words about it. judge it with Bible, with history, with science, with math, statistics. that is what good debate is all about.

      Okie -I am with you on the music. My church uses all manner of instruments, from piano, to organ, to horns, and even acustic guitar. I believe it was Bach that said “the goal of all music should be to the glory of God”.

      1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 6:06pm

      @RANGERP

      You believe if you put the Old Rugged Cross lyrics to the tune of a heavy metal song its wouldnt glorify God?

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 6:14pm

      @Ranger P

      I agree 100%. judge ye not less ye be judge 10 fold…If one is speaking truth one can take 10 fold judgement quite fine.  To me it’s a warning to make sure your holding truth and if you are, speak it. 

      Just think, if we aren’t to “judge” how do we determine good and evil? 

      My encouragement was not to let others judgment get you down or hamper your spirit. I understood 4truth2all as he wasn’t condemning you but giving his judgment of your thoughts verses his. We confuse judgment and condemnation. 

      I attended a Church once, a “mega Church” and they had youth playing heavy metal banging their head music. Hardly any lyrics and the few it had you could not understand. I was like wow this is not for me. It just shocked me. I was told it was to attrack all people. I never went back. 

      Stay safe! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 8:18pm

      @SpeckChaser

      If I gave you two scoops of ice cream, served from a dirty ashtray, would it glorify your taste buds?

      Lev 10:1-2 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

      Why would these individuals who were putting forth effort to please God, incur instead His wrath? What is the principle being taught here?
      The reason that Nadab and Abihu were killed is because they offered “strange fire”, rather than the “pure” fire from the brazen altar.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 8:23pm

      Yo RangerP:
      WE AGREE….yeah baby! By your words and actions I make an observation/judgement; to do other would be foolish.I however, do not judge that, that I cannot see… your heart. Unless the Lord speak to mine concerning anothers; and He has, and this takes discernment, one must be careful.

      Example: I could have judged you as hateful (an issue of your heart) concerning your stance. I may have been completly wrong in that you are just very concerned about the direction the “church” is taking. This in fact would mean we are in complete agreement but I have jeoperdized making you angry and now we fight against one another instead of together. Not wise for soldiers in the same army. Unfortunatly this seems to be to often true, cause while we (true christians)fight he takes more ground.
      I am 4truth2all – I was concerned that the 2all part would seem arogant after I already signed in the first time, so I hope that it is not taken that way.
      At some point maybe I could send you some of my recordings. What kind of music do you like? I use my keyboards as weapons and sometimes I go to war with them against my emeny. I dance before the Lord with them. I hope he and believe He looks down apon me and says Go get-em son, and He turns to the angels in heaven and says … that’s my boy!
      “As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another”
      A dull blade is good for killing fleas not lions!
      In the war of peace…..blessings

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 8:27pm

      @Okie.

      I appreciate you looking out.

      Not exactly sure why, but if I know without a doubt that I am correct, and standing on Bible principle, every single poster on the blaze can come after me with ridicule and anger (not that these people did), and it will motivate me even more to stand on truth. I literally believe a day is coming soon in America, where real Bible believing Christians will be tortured and killed if they proclaim Bible truth. It may sound stupid to some, but I believe the snow ball is rolling down the hill at blinding speed, and getting bigger every second.

      Debating when I am outnumbered is a blast for me. It makes me study harder, and it makes me stronger on that topic.

      I think the music is just one of the deals where you know without a doubt when you hear it, that it is not Christian. After joining the Army back in 87, I got away from going to church and doing as I was supposed to for a good while. My music followed suit. Even then, while I could hear all manner of filth, I could not stand to hear any of the so called “Christian rock”. It literally makes me want to vomit.

      thanks,
      Ranger

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:11pm

      Yo RangerP:
      Shudda let it be….
      Concerning you post to Speck… I feel that you have applied the Word to suit your purpose, not that your purpose suit the Word. I got my NKJV out… read it. The reason is stated within the verses themselves…. they did not do as the LORD said ~ they broke a command. The word “profane is used instead of ”strange” fire in the NKJV
      Profane: to treat with abuse or contempt.
      Sir, please show me in the Word of God where it says that a specific “style” of music is COMMANDED by God and if other it is profane.
      My version has a footnote in which part of it says they may have been intoxicated.
      This is a matter of the heart.
      I, sir can set the keys on fire rockin (if you wish to call it that, I don’t even think of it that way) before the Lord and my offering is NOT profane. It … is….pure… and you have no right to judge the motive of my heart as I pour out my spirit to Him. You do not know it as the Lord does. By playing this kind of music I have commited NO sin at the altar.
      True strength is humility and a blade will never be sharp without it.
      I, in due respect find no reason to speak further concerning this matter…. in Christ….peace

      Report Post »  
    • poverty.sucks
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:26pm

      Sex isn’t a bad thing untill you teach that it is, like Mormons do. Why doesn’t the article represent the fustration that mormons place on youth. Mormons have the highest teen suicide rate in the country. Sex and shame has plenty to do with that.

      Report Post » poverty.sucks  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:59pm

      @poverty.sucks

      “Sex isn’t a bad thing untill you teach that it is”

      Sex is a good thing, and ordained by God. That is, when a man and woman are married. Sex outside of marriage is bad. It can lead to unwanted pregnancy, STDs, bastard children with no father, and all manner of other problems.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • One_Man_Army
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:01pm

      @ RangerP

      The problem with your assumption is that NIV translators NEVER took out verses that spoke to the Deity of Christ. Where in the world do you get that from? They didn’t even actually take out the verses. You see, most NIV Bibles actually leave those in as a notational text. I don‘t know exactly where you’re coming from, but you are 100% wrong.

      Report Post »  
    • One_Man_Army
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:08pm

      @ RangerP

      I cannot believe anything that comes out of your mouth. Much of what you say is actually flat out wrong and anti-Christian. You say that rock music is, by definition, of Satan. That is, without a doubt, 100% WRONG. Rock music is like EVERY OTHER piece of music. Yes, there is such a thing as Christian Rock. Like EVERY OTHER piece of music, rock can be of Satan, but it can also be used to glorify God. It’s NOT the music that is of the devil. It is the inspiration of the music that defines whether is is of Satan or of God, NOT the music itself. Where do you get off stating all your ignorance from.

      Report Post »  
    • DRAGA
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:22pm

      you are correct,well said!!
      Draga

      Report Post »  
    • CottonMPG
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:29pm

      I believe it is a combination of things. Firstly everyone takes for granted that kids will have sex and sex is glorified in the media. That is really one thing because they go together completely. Secondly you are shamed for being a virgin, at least once you are 18 or older. Marriage is not understood properly and most people discourage young people from marrying. How do you expect a person to wait til marriage when they are discouraged from marrying until they are in their thirties? This idea that you shouldn’t marry young is prevalent in churches as it is in the rest of our culture. I rest my case.

      Report Post » CottonMPG  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:52pm

      @RANGERP

      I enjoy your post and your normally your spot on. However, on this, you based your entire argument on the incorrect idea that certain tones of music are sinful, there not. You said, “If I gave you two scoops of ice cream, served from a dirty ashtray, would it glorify your taste buds? It’s fine if you see rock that glorifies debauchery as a dirty ashtray but there is not logic in the idea that glorifying God threw songs with distorted guitar compares.

      Using the context of your example, you assume the ashtray (music) is dirty when it is not. It is basically the same argument libs use for gun control. They assume an inanimate object like a firearm, music in this example, is inherently evil and proceed from there.

      The two in your example were killed for disobeying strict guidelines from the Lord. I have yet to see strict guidelines condemning the equivalent to rock music in Biblical times simply due to the sound and noticed you haven’t given scripture that condemns them either.

      Did it raise a red flag to you when you were comparing music glorify sin to music that glorifies god? What point are you really making when you say, this group of heretics over here glorifies sex, drugs, rebellion, etc. and that somehow reflects poorly on this group who is glorifying Jesus. I don’t see a point in that argument. It doesn’t make sense.

      The idea that you theoretically think a heavy metal instrumental song, with no lyrics, is sinful is beyond me.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • DTOM_Jericho (Creator vindicator)
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:03pm

      @ranger
      Um… sex outside marriage? And you reference God? In Scripture… SEX IS MARRIAGE. What is the P in rangerp for? Pagan? You fancy yourself as quite the teacher.

      Report Post » DTOM_Jericho (Creator vindicator)  
    • TheBMT
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:34pm

      Parents responsibility.

      Report Post »  
    • HappyStretchedThin
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:53pm

      Word count average on this thread is off the charts!
      Poverty: Mormons don’t teach that, their teen suicide rates aren’t the worst, and your obvious bias screams purposeful rage
      RangerP: you are a veritable tour de force on this subject. As a musician with varying tastes myself, I’ve always had an uneasy time coming to terms with my like for heavier styles, with my deep down feeling of regret about it. Your point isn’t even really about taste at all, as I understand it (and as a few have persisted in twisting it to mean), but is rather about the direction implied in its use: there‘s no problem when you’re bringing a worldly tool up to the level of glorifying God, there IS a problem when you’re dumbing your glorification of God down by diluting it with a worldly tool. That is an INCREDIBLY fine line to judge, and I think even some of the best-intentioned “Christian rock” bands fall into the trap of contributing to the dilution–the takeaway is that there’s nothing wrong with the worldly way, as long as that ice cream is in its ash tray. thanks for standing up so convincingly against that. For myself, Gal 5:22 offers a list of pure emotions the Spirit puts in the heart–its “fruits” if you will–and I’m sorry, but I can’t objectively imagine anyone getting love, peace, joy, patience, etc. from a distortion guitar.
      I‘m amazed more haven’t taken on Neofan: it’s a pretty simple cause/effect: teach them you can “repent” later and they believe you, no?

      Report Post » HappyStretchedThin  
    • HappyStretchedThin
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 12:03am

      p.s. this mostly BS study with its mostly BS conclusions was extrEMELY poorly designed. I’ll take the Evangelical approach any day. Do a study of AFTER they’ve been converted and see how many BECOME monogamous, committed, loving, good citizens, etc. Judged by their FRUITS, they TURN OUT much closer to their own standard over time as Christ works within them.

      Report Post » HappyStretchedThin  
    • jonnydoe
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 12:24am

      I can tell you this; I grew up in a strict, Pentecostal church in the 60′s-70′s where the women wore dresses and had long hair. The pastor preached from nothing but the KJV, and we only played 1/3 beat southern gospel hyms, yet I watched as my condescending, judgemental pastor made his son marry my cousin because he got her pregnant. The pastor’s daughter had an affair on her husband and her own son caught her in the act, and to this day, her kids want nothing to do with church. The piano player slept with at least 3 other married women in the church (that I know of) and countless others outside of the church, all while playing those “old hymns”. And through all of this they still looked down their collective noses at anyone “outside” their church with disdain. Complete hypocrites.

      Trust me, it wasn’t the music that made them sin. It wasn’t the way the women dressed that made them sin. It wasn’t the bible version that made them sin. It was “the desires of the flesh” that led them into sin. The sex drive is a holy, God-given, natural desire placed in us, but to abuse it is our own undoing.

      James 1:14-15 – But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

      Report Post » jonnydoe  
    • rghtwngcrzy
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 12:32am

      @RANGERP – I am surprised to find I am mostly in agreement with you. I was a member of a mainline liberal protestant church for 36 years. Women pastors, praise bands, gender-neutral Bible translations (Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer). NIV was way too conservative for them. Never spoke of sin or satan or repentance, but talked a lot about love and justice and acceptance. The liberal protestants also never talked about self-control (that would be too judgmental). But isn’t that what it all boils down to? Evangelical kids are no more self-controlled than the non-believing kids. Obviously much of rock music is about losing one’s self-control and inhibitions and getting caught up in the moment. That message is aimed directly at children and all children, both churched and un-churched, are hearing it loud and clear. People who exercise self-control are labeled “repressed” or “anal” or “old-fashioned.” Sadly that is the same message being delivered from many pulpits by not preaching on sin and by tacitly sanctioning rock music by including it in the worship service. Kids will never learn self-control if they never hear about it, or see it practiced by the adults around them, or have to practice it themselves.

      Report Post » rghtwngcrzy  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 2:17am

      Yo Rightwngcrzy:
      You mention “losing one’s self-control”…. how do you reconcile where David danced before the Lord. He pretty much stripped (as I recall) down to his under garments, and he danced with such abandon that his own wife was ashamed of him. I can see this now…. many would want to grab this boy/man and throw him out of the church in disgust, all that time it is pleasing to the LORD.
      “Jonnydoe”…. makes a very good point that I thought of but did not mention and I in fact believe is a contributor to this issue, and that being dead bone churches… old self-righteous organ playing hymn singing ones where God got up and left a long time ago, and would much prefer a little noise and maybe even and few missed played notes on a guitar.

      THE LORD SAID MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE!

      Report Post »  
    • chipmunk
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 2:25am

      @RANGERP
      I really respect you. I would just ask you open your mind alittle bit to the idea of women wearing modest pants. i.e.; cut a little slack on the pants thing. Especially for church attendees. Skirts & dresses are not always so comfortable as people age. You’ve probably never worn a skirt & heels.

      Report Post »  
    • Chuck Stein
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 3:03am

      @ Spencerblythe
      I also agree with NEOFAN — interesting that no one has even attempted to challenge his susinct and insightful comment.

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 5:22am

      @NEOFan

      Being a believer in Jesus Christ is not just one prayer, one work, one ordnance; It is a life long walk. What you do matters. Not sure what Jesus you speak of. 

      “and also teaches that refraining from relations is a “work” and all works are as filthy rags then what to you expect.”

      Refraining from fornication is following in a walk with Christ. Your understanding of Isaiah 64:6 is perverted. 

      But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6 KJV)

      This is a prayer that started in the previous chapter around verse 15 by Israel, believers, for all God had been rebuking them talked about in Chapter 58. ”Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure, and oppress all your workers.”

      So, in context, the verse is saying to believers, “No matter how right you try to make yourself with God, it‘s worthless if you’re not helping the poor.” The righteousness, or righteousnesses, that are as filthy rags are their fasts, their sacrifices, their rituals — not helping the least of these.

      Hope your day is great! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:01am

      Ranger P has this one right. What reason would someone play heavy metal rock n roll music to respectfully worship God? It is nothing but an imitation of Worldly music which in fact was attributed to Satanists. It’s a “reason” to rock n roll, not to glorify God. It isn’t the instruments, it’s what one is trying to imitate. 

      Romans 12:2, “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” God commands us not to be conformed to this world. The Greek word for “conformed” here is “suschematizo” and means “to fashion alike, i.e. conform to the same pattern.”

      “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” —1st John 2:15-17

      James 4:4, “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:26am

      @DTOM_Jericho (Creator vindicator)

      uhhhhh, yea. People who are not married have sex, then never get married. Some call it casual sex, I call it the same as the Bible – a sin.

      Married people can have sex outside their marriages, it is called adultry.

      Not a hard one to figue out

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:38am

      @jonnydoe

      Thanks for your comments. All churches can have problems, as they are made of people, and all people are sinners. I do not want to beat up on different denominations. Believe me, I have seen problmes in the independent fundamental churches also.

      Just my opinion, but I believe the Pentecostal movement had more than its share of these problems. There is a balance in worship. There is a time to shout, a time to be quiet and listen to the word being preached. Once again, just my opinion, but I think the Pentecostals got out of balance on the praise portion of worship, and left out some of the “be quiet and listen”. If not mistaken, the church at Corinth gave Paul the most grief, and they were the ones speaking in tongues, and having problems with out-of- marriage sex.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:48am

      “I would just ask you open your mind alittle bit to the idea of women wearing modest pants. i.e.; cut a little slack on the pants thing”

      I am not the pants police, and no where did I make any suggestion about a dress code. What I did say is from experience, when I walk into a new church for the first time, and if I see the majority of the women wearing pants, the NIV…. I can make a prediction, and I am generally right.

      I attend old fashioned independent Baptist churches, and if a women shows up wearing pants, no one runs her out of the church. We see women in pants every week.

      Believe me, I am not the standard setter on clothing. Just stating an observation

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Joeyp22
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 8:42am

      I am hearing some good things on here but let me get to heart of the issue, let’s examine the real problem.

      PARENTS! KJV Proverbs 22:6 “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” The heart of the issue is that parents are not training their children properly. More specifically fathers are failing, they are not KJV Ephesians 6:4 “And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.”

      God didn’t say train them up in the way he should go and maybe he will not depart from it but rather he “will not depart from it.” It’s the failure of the family structure, not society. You see satan has attacked the church and more specifically the family structure in the church. If he can tear down families he has torn down the church.

      Rangerp you have made some good point and God said he would preserve his word and the KJV is the preserved word of God to english speaking people.

      This is not a Bible version debate but those of you quoting the perverted text NIV, you may want to do a little study. I would happy to send you some material to clear this up for you.

      If you want to have a victorious Christian life one must first realize that it requires a daily dependance upon the Holy Spirit. There are no super Christians out there, there is not a soul out there that can defeat the flesh daily on their own. We must depend upon the Holy Spirit!

      Report Post »  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:43am

      a few more thoughts…
      There is a man in California and he writes the melody to a song. He then writes the lyrics to that song and they are about partying and the ladies. At the very same time another man in Maine writes the melody to a song and the lyrics he writes are about the awesomeness of Christ on the cross. The guy in Calif. sues the guy in Maine because the melody is note for note identical. The judge rejects the claim of the guy in Calif and accepts the one of the guy in Maine. It is NOT because of the music, it is because of the heart.
      God says your ways are not my ways.
      God says He looks at the heart.
      God says to correct, rebuke and encourage.
      God says speak the truth in love.
      I have spoken truth here… NOT according to me, but as the Word says.
      I will make a bold statement here… prove this statement of truth wrong… this statement/principle.Do not bring anything into the discussion (not an arguemnet), except this story!

      Report Post »  
    • moochodee
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:46am

      RANGER:

      Remember that God invented music and the Bible is extremely clear that we are to use it and use it in FULL FORCE. If we didn’t praise God, even the rocks and trees would cry out. The angels continually praise God with music that is so intense that it would cut into your soul with eternal impact. Remember that the Devil is a cheap imitator of the intensity of heavenly music and uses it to lead people astray.

      Check out Psalms 150:

      1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
      2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
      3Praise him with the sound of the TRUMPET: praise him with the PSALTERY and HARP.
      4Praise him with the TIMBREL and DANCE: praise him with STRINGED INSTRUMENTS and ORGANS.
      5Praise him upon the LOUD CYMBALS: praise him upon the HIGH SOUNDING CYMBALS.
      6Let EVERY THING that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

      This beats rock and roll in intensity any day. With today’s technology we can add to this list of instruments. If you don‘t follow God’s Word, you will struggle with following the Devil’s poor imitation.

      King David had a band praising God 24 hours a day 7 days a week. When King David entered the city once, he was dancing so intensely that he had to take off his outer “kingly” garment. His wife made fun of him–that he would do such a thing as a king–and God closed her womb making her barren/childless for mocking h

      Report Post »  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:20am

      Yo Joeyp22:
      One time I will do this…. by YOUR logic I am a perverted man because I read a perverted book…. the NIV. It’s the Word of God and you call it perverted??? I suspect you side with ranger because of your bias. I really don’t care if you trash me, just your thinking here, and so many others!
      So we have the gang known as the KJV’s and they eat lunch together that table b in the caf…. and then ya got them NIV preverts that hang at table C. The KJV’s are always throwing things at the NIV, so the NIV pull the chairs out from under the KJV’s. Then ya got those dispicable NASB slugs. The NIV”s and the KJV’s call them slugs cause they read that reguler easy to read version… little mentally challanged…slow = slug… no what I’m saying. They sit all the way across the room at table v. It’s safer there. Along comes the NLT gang and they get there soda out of the machine and quickly leave cause if they stick around all hell will break loose.

      The NKJV and the NIV are VERY similar… DID MY OWN STUDY….side by side…
      This story is childish= immature. If this is where you are at in your walk with the LORD fine, I was there at one point to… though not on this issue.
      That sorry room could sure use a peace maker as His are called to be.
      Peace….

      Report Post »  
    • Fallenwalls
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:22am

      If your speakers are 5′11” or smaller you are going to heaven?
      Look people it’s not the content of the message in the music, it’s about the label you put on the music and the tools you use to play the music. If you use an instrument that plugs in or uses electricity you are going to hell!

      Come On! lets keep the focus on telling the lost world the Good News about Jesus! We are here to be messengers for Jesus. Once we have given them the message it is up to them to choose, if they choose to believe, the Holy Spirit works on changing them.

      “The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
      And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. And Jesus said
      I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” Luke 18:11-14

      Go tell people about Jesus
      If you don’t know Jesus, seek Him and you will find Him

      “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”
      Jeremiah 29:13

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:36am

      Yo Moochodce: I wanted to get out of here and then you go and make that excellent post. You took the time I did not to list SOME of the verses concerning music.
      You understand the music of heaven (excellent) and I try to do this as best as possible with my keyboards and abilities.

      You also mention David as I have a number of times in this thread… people seem to ignor this.
      You add to what I have said concerning this story… this is the Lords leading.

      I also play in a House of Prayer that is set up to mimick David’s 24/7 and the purpose is the same. Around the clock praise and worship. I don’t want to insert myself to much here… as the purpose is for GOD”S GLORY….,AMEN!

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:46am

      WOW! day two, and people still defending the so called “christian rock”.

      Silence is deafening. Almost daily, I debate the atheists, Bible deniers, and God haters. Notice they say nothing on this topic. They are laughing. They want you to listen and dabble in their music.

      I wonder what Satan thinks on the matter? I wonder if he looked over, and saw a bunch of evangelical teens, who daily read their Bible, prayed, and were living a productive Christian life how he would try to influence them to drop their productive life, and turn to him? Would he say “let’s get these kids to turn up the volume on their old fashioned Christian music, such as Amazing Grace”. I doubt it. Would he say “let me put a little cocaine in their path”. I doubt this also. Kids living a Christian life, aint touching it. What about slipping in a little Christian Rock. Hey, it has a good message, it just has a stronger beat. No harm, no foul. If memory serves me correctly, Satan did not tempt Eve with a cold Budweiser and a pack of cigarettes. He came at her with God’s words. “Yea, hath God said?” (Gen. 3:1, KJV).

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:52am

      Without a doubt, and with no argument, we can link “drugs, sex, and Rock and Roll”. All three are tied to rebellion.

      There are those on here that will defend the rock, and say it can be used to glorify God. What about the other two?

      The saying “drugs, sex, and rock and roll” is referring to sex out of marriage, and mind altering recreational drugs (not aspirin). Can we get stoned for Jesus? can we have sex outside of marriage and glorify him? Someone on here stated that we can take anything and use it to glorify God,. How about pornography? Can you glorify God with it.

      There is that which is wicked, and cannot be used for God.

      Rock music is about as strong as a drug as anything you can mess with. It is a hypnotic drug that is powerful and addictive. It has no place in the Christian Church. If you do not believe me, those that listen to it, try to put it down for one week. You will see what I mean.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • encinom
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:54am

      @Ranger Dan:

      “Now I’ve heard there was a secret chord
      That David played and it pleased the Lord
      But you don’t really care for music, do you?”

      You are just another “Christian” more concerned with finding the devil, than looking for God. Why did God waste his time with creating the world and populating it with fellow humans, when Christians like yourself turn your backs to such creations. You were given a life you refuse to live, you can feel happyness and joy for a reason yet you have decided to turn this life into Purgatory.

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:12am

      stepping out on a limb with this one, as music is not something I am strong on. When I say music, I am talking the parts or that which makes music to be music.

      Rock is music that is not balanced. We know balance is good, in that things such as diet require protein, fiber, carbs…..

      music is no different, there is melody, rhythm, beat…..(once again, not an expert on this).

      Rock music over accentuates the beat part of music.

      Play rock in front of little two year olds, and watch them begin to undulate their hips (called a sexual gyration), bang their head…. the music is powerful. It is not just the words, it is the beat and the rhythm.

      Remember Woodstock? The giant get naked sex party of the 60s. What music did they play and why? The music was the power behind the event, it led to the rebellion, the sex, the nakedness, the drug use.

      You cannot make chicken salad from chicken poop.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • jonnydoe
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:37am

      Joeyp22,

      “…and God said he would preserve his word and the KJV is the preserved word of God to english speaking people.”
      ————————————————————————————————————–
      If that wasn’t so ridiculously wrong, it would be funny. If the KJV is the preserved word of God to english speaking people, then I would have to say God is purposely trying to confuse us because that version is riddled with inconsistencies. That being said, the NIV isn’t much better.

      Report Post » jonnydoe  
    • encinom
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:49am

      @Ranger Dan

      ” Can we get stoned for Jesus?”

      Actually, speaking to Rastafarians, the answer is yes.

      They hold that the smoking of cannabis enjoys Biblical sanction, and is an aid to meditation and religious observance. Among Biblical verses, Rastas quote as justifying the use of cannabis:

      Genesis 1:11 “And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.”
      Genesis 1:29 “And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb-bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.”
      Genesis 3:18 “… thou shalt eat the herb of the field.”
      Psalms 104:14 “He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man.”
      Proverbs 15:17 “Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith.”[32]
      Revelation 22:2 ” the river of life proceeded to flow from the throne of God, and on either side of the bank there was the tree of life, and the leaf from that tree is for the healing of the nations.”
      According to some Rastafari[33] and other scholars, the etymology of the word “cannabis” and similar terms in all the languages of the Near East may be traced to the Hebrew “qaneh bosm” קנה-בשם, which is one of the herbs that God commanded Moses to include in his preparation of sacred anointing per

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 12:08pm

      Yo RangerP:
      How are you? Going to open a door I closed. You say in your second post down in reply to “Locked” that… no one on the Blaze can out debate you on this subject. One could look at that statement as one of confidence/ or one of pride.
      You also say in reply to “Okie” 2 up from “Poverty” that… you don’t know why but you have no doubt you are correct and you will stand on bible principle. You also talk about how many have a different understanding then you.
      I have your permission to do this (NO CONDEMNATION HERE)…First… based on principle/ biblical truth you have already “lost” the debate. You have had many,many good comments that were presented in the friendly manner you desired in the post where you challanged all to debate. Many have made similar points and as you your self aluded to certainly seem lead my Christ. This would then in fact say that God has sent His ambassadors to reply to you. Your responce to this is to resist. Based on your words, your responces it would appear to me that God would like to speak to the pride of your heart here. Humility is much more appealing to God than pride, in fact God says he is far from them. It is so hard to communicate here ( at least for me) I would love to sit with you and speak face to face over a cup of coffee. God says do not sit at the head of the table least you have to move and be embrassed. Let this seat be appointed to you.( continued next post)

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 12:36pm

      Yo RangerP:
      In one of you last posts you state; “ I wonder what satan thinks on the matter”. To some extent… WHO CARES!…. This is what God thinks if I may be so bold… He says son the devil stole the ball go get it. The emeny created nothing/ no music… God Did! Ranger, please SEE this. My keyboard does nothing, nothing until my fingers are put to the keys. My fingers do nothing until my brain tells them to play. My spirit determines the purpose of the music WHATEVER STYLE. I challange you to go to my post below “Joeyp22” and disprove my simple story based on a bible principle. DO NOT add anything into it; disprove the principle and I will stand corrected to, and list every person here who agrees with you. If you can not… do what ever .I was going to say a number of other things but I gotta get out of here. if I stood before you I would shake your hand as a brother….sincerely….peace!

      Report Post »  
    • Joeyp22
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 1:25pm

      At Truth4all

      Many times on this post I’ve read a comment and then someone reaches out with some far fetched claim of what my words meant. The NIV is a preverted text. If you wish I will point out several places where it preverted. It‘s not an arguement it’s fact. I would ask you this, if I could show you factually the NIV is a corrupt text would you accept the truth?

      I am not questioning your salvation but I would like to bring to light errors in the different translations.

      Why are there so many Bible translations?
      1.) Rebellion against the authority of God and His Word ~ Luke 19:14
      2.) satan, the father of lies and the great deceiver. ~ John 8:44, Rev. 12:4, Genisis 3:1-5
      How about this one
      3.) The love of money ~ 1 Timothy 6:10
      Not only is the Bible the number #1 selling book of all time, it’s said to be the #1 selling book each year.

      If satan can pervert God’s word, what greater way to confuse those who think they are believing what’s right. Do you know what text the NWT of the Bible(Jehovah’s Witness) get theirs from?

      There are corrupt texts. Yes I know Born Again Christians who have used the NIV. I think we should always bring light to darkness.

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    • Chuck Stein
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 1:31pm

      @ OKIE

      I understand your concept of “Being a believer in Jesus Christ” and of “following in a walk with Christ.“ I expect that you would describe yourself as an ”Evangelical Christian,“ and that those Evangelicals who share your ”flavor” of Christianity would not have a high level of fornication.

      The “sort” of Evangelicals that NEOFAN referred to (I think) subscribe to a “version” of Jesus who gives you a “ticket to Heaven” (that cannot be cancelled) if you profess belief in church, or are baptized, etc. Maybe you have not met those Evangelicals. I have. I suspect that NEOFAN has, as well.

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    • libertynjustice4all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 1:37pm

      @rangerp

      90% of what u said is completely wrong. are we supposed to wear robes and ride donkeys to churhc like the did in the old days too? no, times change and so must we otherwise we will be disregarded and left in the past. there is nothing wrong with having instruments either. try attracting new people by standing there and chanting 10 verses of a song… pretty sure that wont be appealing to anyone.

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 2:02pm

      Yo joeyp22;
      I do not understand the listing of the verses and the purpose… my apologies for this. Please explain… keep it simple just give me one, yo.
      perverted…means corrupt… that to me is like saying because my car has a scratch on it ,it is junk.
      The spirit in which I am called to walk guides me to truth.
      Please don’t tell me that the NIV removes the diety of Christ from it… ( J.W.) as this would plan simply not be true. As I know of the diety of Christ through my NIV.
      I sincerely hope you do not reverse above sentence!
      Finally… please show me the perfect bible translation, and according to who?… blessings

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 2:12pm

      Chuck Stein 

      I am a believer and follower of Christ. I do not take labels of religion as religion divides and kills. Yes, those I know who believe as I are quite capable of controlling their bodies and are not like dogs who run and fornicate with anything they can. Who’d of thunk man could use his brain to control his own organs and hormones. The world teaches you are too stupid to control this organ and hormones. Which do you believe? 

      Yes, I hear what you are saying but I contend if one is teaching those things one is teaching a false teaching. The use of Isaiah, “filthy rags” shows just that. If one is teaching a false teaching and false salvation then I’m unsure how one is an evangelical or teaching about Jesus. 

      I just wanted to show NeoFan what that verse meant and that those teachings of saved no matter what junk is false. Appreciate your thoughts. Hope you have a great day. 
       

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 2:28pm

      @4truth2all

      I think this article will set an all time word used record for blaze blogs.

      I do not think I can add anything more, nor do I need to. I showed over and over, and from the mouths of those who create, sing, play, promote rock music, that it is purposed toward rebellion, sex, and is anti Christian. There is no middle ground, that is what rock music is. Your verses showing various instruments used for music in the Bible is not relevant. You love your rock, and nothing I say is going to change your addiction.

      Once again, there is no such thing such as Christian Rock, Christian drugs (you see on knuckle head even argued that one), Christian sex outside of marriage, Christian pornography. Some things do not mix.

      Man have twisted my words, claimed I said pants send you to hell, along with large speakers…. None of that was said or insinuated. I made a claim that I can walk into a church and in under a minute, I can tell you things about that church based on what I see.

      ONCE AGAIN. The article was about kids from evangelical churches having sex at the same rate as the lost. I gave a reason why this is happening. Drugs, sex, and rock go together, when the church brings in the rock, they get the sex. Outside of defending your precious rock music, you have no argument, you have no answer for why kids are having sex. Keep your rock, and they will keep the sex, they go together.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • FAITH HOPE LOVE
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 2:28pm

      @JOEYP22
      EXACTLY! I agree it starts with the parents and goes from there… Also, I am so happy to hear you mention being FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT! That is the part so many beleivers miss! Someone mentioned “filthy rags” earlier and completely missunderstood the verse they were referencing.. Human good (”good works/deeds”) are as filthy rags to God because ANYTHING that is NOT done while under the ministry of the Holy Spirit is relying on man’s power(which he has none) instead of Divine Power which only occurs when you have NO unconfessed sin in your life. (1 Jn. 1:9)You see the thing is All SIN is EVIL but all Evil is not sin. This brings me to Ranger P.
      @RangerP
      I understand the point you are making. Let me add my thoughts.God and sin cannot coexist in one body. A beleiver in the Lord Jesus Christ has 2 power options:The filling of the Spirit and God’s word. This is why the consistent intake of the Word of God is so important. It fortifies our soul with knowledge&understanding of who and what God is and teaches us we are to have in us the mind and the character of Christ. Without a Biblical World view ppl will not be able to know the truth from the lie or be able to understand Divine Viewpoint thinking.The point is that to glorify God, in anything we do,including music, we need to be filled with the HS for it to count, to Him.This is also how we live the Spiritual life moment by moment, in our minds.I thought it made more since to say this than to go on again

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 2:39pm

      @libertynjustice4all

      “90% of what u said is completely wrong. are we supposed to wear robes and ride donkeys to churhc like the did in the old days too?”

      90% of what I printed was a direct cut and paste. It was taken from the mouths of rock and roll artists, musicians, song writers, promoters. It is their words, not mine. You are like so many other on here, in that you twist what I said. The reason, is you can not debate the music. Once again. drugs, sex, and rock and roll are lumped together. Do you deny that they are lumped together? Do you deny that they are tied to rebellion? Do you deny that modern churches that play the rock music, are the same churches that are having the problems of their youth out having sex?

      I am not Amish, and I used modern transportations, the church I attend has electric piano, and all manner of updated computer technology.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 3:00pm

      NIV

      For those offended about what I said about the NIV, it would take to much space to write this out. I wil give you a link to David Cloud’s site, with a very good article on the NIV. About the best I can do for you.
      http://www.wayoflife.org/files/1d9d3a6095c4f5d87a33efb521b4a585-785.html

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 3:05pm

      very good article on christian rock.

      http://www.wayoflife.org/files/e8da323a3d51e39b3f453d2bcf7731c4-214.html

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 3:53pm

      Yo RangerP
      Final statement on this issue unless you respond as stated below ….You say “ you love your rock and nothing I say is going to change your addiction”. you also say “keep your rock”.

      It is not MY rock, but The Rock does not mind if I listen to it… you do.
      I am NOT addicted to it
      rarely listen to it and don’t play it (sorry if I gave you that impression)
      In my last post I took your challange and challanged you back with a specific request and that was reguarding ONE simple story based on a bible principle. You responded with other comments but completely ignored that and that was all I was asking to deal with. I am willing to change anytime anyplace and anywhere. But I have to be proven wrong you have not even come close. You also made mention to not knowing music. I do know some . Rock is structured and believe there is a verse that speaks to that I do not remember it and thus not completely sure of this. Having said that; rock music is a melting pot of ALL styles of music assimulated into it by different bands in various ways over time. This would then make many styles of music demonic. Which would mean you would have to become a muslim as they ban music, I believe. I’m thinking your not going that path…. and I’m taking another one…outta here….peace!

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    • Joeyp22
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 4:22pm

      2Corinthians 2:11 “Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.”

      Do me a favor and look up these words in you NIV bible. regeneration, mercyseat, Calvary, remission, Jehovah, immutable, omnipotent, Comforter, Holy Ghost, Messiah, quickened, infallible, fornication, trucebreakers, winebibbers, carnal, slothful, unthankful, effeminate, backbiting, vanity, lasciviousness, whoredom, devils, Lucifer, damnation, brimstone, and the bottomless pit.

      Matthew 4:4 “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (emphasis mine on EVERY)

      Tell me which 64,576 words removed from the NIV traslation are not EVERY and are not important.

      You see my friend this is not an argument this is one Christian sharing truth with another. If you seriously desire to know the truth ask God to show you and I promise you that he will. Satan and his devices will not want this.

      2 Timothy 2:15 instructs each believer to “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.“ The NIV removes the word ”study” from this verse. Why is that?

      Moderate changes may not seem like much but just as RangerP said “Satan did not tempt Eve with a cold Budweiser and a pack of cigarettes. He came at her with God’s words. “Yea, hath God said?”

      Just like Rat poison 98% food, but the 2% poison, kills you

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 5:05pm

      RangerP
      Thought I’d let you know that I did check out the links… as I said always willing to learn and listen.
      Be slow to speak quick to listen, or is that quick to listen, slow to speak.
      Would have number of things to say, but been talkin to much.
      Need to shut-up

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    • TH30PH1LUS
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 5:19pm

      I’ll add here my final posts on the MUSIC portion of this conversation:
      1. God had no problems allowing “popular music” to be borrowed for use in worship. Psalm 22 (to the tune of “The Doe of the Morning”) Psalm 45 (to the tune of “Lilies”) Psalm 56 (to the tune of “A Dove on Distant Oaks”) Psalm 59 (to the tune of “Do Not Destroy”) Psalm 60 (to the tune of “Lily of the Covenant”) Psalm 69 (to the tune of “Lilies”) Psalm 75 (to the tune of “Do Not Destroy”) Psalm 80 (to the tune of The Lilies of the Covenant”)
      2. A good Evangelist knows how to make truth RELEVANT to the current audience. ACTS 17:28 Paul quotes from two different Grecian writers. The first quote is from Epimenides (c. 600 BC). The second is by Aratus (c. 300 BC). Paul also quotes from Aratus in Titus 1:12. In their original contexts, both quotes are referring to Zeus, the main god of Grecian mythology.

      From these examples, we can draw a general principle: the MESSAGE is sacred, but the METHOD is not. David said “Sing a new song”. Jesus talked about “new wineskins”. I LOVE old hymns – but at one time they were NEW – and often criticized. To mark a period of church history as say THAT is the only right way of singing is MYOPIC, cuts off all that came before, and limits the creative expression of future generations. Video on church music/history http://www.artistshousemusic.org/videos/the+history+of+worship+music+in+the+christian+church

      Report Post » TH30PH1LUS  
    • TH30PH1LUS
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 5:27pm

      If GOD alone is worshipped and glorified, and His presence is welcomed in the music – I don’t see the problem.

      There’s LOTS of garbage music out there to complain about. But I remember that the BIG names in secular music got their start inside the Church. The CHURCH is where music has its full expression, and where music is used to its highest purpose. Vocalists and musicians who were brought up in church have a sensitivity and gifting that the world cannot reproduce, and covets.

      Another one I thought I’d share http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un09cq5tiuo&feature=related

      Report Post » TH30PH1LUS  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 5:29pm

      @4Truth2All
      Just wanted to say I appreciate your ability to debate God’s Word respectfully. It’s a good example how we should all be in regards to finding truth. Keep it up man. 

      David dancing for God, I have no problem with, less the nudity of course. :-) I have a sister who’s husband is black and attends a predominately black Church. I’ve attended a couple of times and I must tell you, I never enjoyed singing for God as I have there. They danced and sang with passion for God. They weren’t doing the C-Walk or bust stop, mimicking a evil dance, but they praised God with their whole body, swaying, clapping, and rejoicing for God. Awesome stuff. I see it if we can jump, clap, and yell for a football game we sure can and ought to for God. 

      The same principle fits with music. Instruments is not the issue, but the reason and what we are mimicking is and it seems Churches using “rock” are more and more mimicking the Worldly styles not to worship God but to seem and be more worldly and appeal to the world, not God.

      We should dance LIKE David did and sing AS David did. David wasn’t mimicking the world. David was rejoicing for God. Awesome stuff.

      Keep up the good fight and hope your day is good.

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 5:40pm

      .@4truth2all

      Sorry, I did not understand your question in relation to a story. If you ask me, I will try to answer.

      On debating, you referenced my claim that I cannot be beat on this argument. Let me explain. If we debate on the fact that 2+2=4, and I side with 2+2 does =4. I will out debate you, as truth is on my side, you may not ever agree, and may claim that 2+2=5 until you are blue in the face.

      Believe me; it has nothing to do my ability to debate. Check out ENCINOM’s posts, he argues with me often. His ability to articulate and use English blows me away. He just argues for the side of evil and socialism. I struggle to write, and it is not easy. That being said this is the easiest topic in the world to debate. All I have to do is cut and paste, and lay out the facts, what you do is your business. We can all have our own opinion, but there is only one truth. Notice when I posted all the quotes from rockers, no one refuted any of them. Rockers called their own music anti Christian, demonic, evil, naughty, all about sex, a drug, coincides with drugs use…. These same rockers often kill themselves with drugs.

      One more time. Rock is lumped with drugs and sex for a reason, all three ties to rebellion. The bible tells us rebellion is a form of witch craft.

      The term rock and roll came from a slang term used for sex in the back seat of a car. There can be no Christian rock.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 5:46pm

      @Okie from Muskogee

      Another good post my friend.

      I think people have the wrong idea on David dancing. Notice that I never once posted anything on dance, jumping, clapping. I think people have this false idea about David dancing in sort of MTV bust a move moment.

      Notice those that argue for the worldly music, will not reply back when you talk about Moses being up on the mountain, the children of Israel were worshiping the golden calf, were naked, and were playing music that sounded like war. They do not want to accept that music can be used for bad, just as it can be used for good.

      Ranger Dan, Ranger Pee, Ranger Rip….. I am sure I will have more if I keep arguing.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • encinom
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:03pm

      @ Ranger Dan,

      Now I understand you and why you are so closed minded. You believe the bigotted rants (they are not sermons) of David Cloud. Again, the anti-catholic bigotry is alive and well on Blaze, only you have made it clear the Bapists hate all Christians, except for those that go to their particular church.

      Report Post »  
    • LieutA
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:36pm

      Single Parenthood is a badge of honor in our “new” society, professing independence yet always looking for pity and approval from others. And should you disapprove of their condition, just another way to brand you traditionalist as “Haters” or Racist. I also question the studies. Who would conduct such studies and what was their motivation? Are the conclusions formulated before the interviews, thereby corrupting objectivity, subject selection and interpretation of data? Evangelicals are a large and varied identification. You have conservative traditionalist, modernist and centrist leanings. Some are more fundamental, some more liberal. Seems like a cheap shot.

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:36pm

      @RANGERP

      This thread is a good example of the sad state of critical thinking we have in this country. The idea that you compare the actions of a group who glorify debauchery to a group who are praising the Lord, as if they were one is the same, and believe you made a logical point is beyond comprehension. You can quote a trillion rock and roll Anti-God singers but it has ZERO to do others who disagree with their ideology. The only thing it proves is rock that is Anti-Christ is sinful, agreed.

      If Christian rock is sinful by design, which you claim, why have you given ZERO examples of Christian rocks sinfulness? I’m not concerned about Ozzy or Mansion’s opinions of rock, their irrelevant when discussing the idea that Christian rock is sinful. It is sad for you to say Christian Rock is directly tied to sex and drugs, THEN GIVE NO EXAMPLES OF SUCH.

      It would be just as ridiculous to say since there are militaries throughout history that have raped, pillaged, and slaughtered the innocent that directly means RANGERP is just as guilty because he served in a military.

      You said, “Outside of defending your precious rock music, you have no argument.” YOU HAVENT EVEN MADE A VALID POINT ON THIS ISSUE YET.

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:39pm

      Continued…

      You said “Notice those that argue for the worldly music, will not reply back when you talk about Moses being up on the mountain, the children of Israel were worshiping the golden calf, were naked, and were playing music that sounded like war.” They don’t respond because you aren’t making a valid point. If the bible said, and then war like music rained down from the sky causing people to strip of their cloths and worship an idle, you would have a point. It doesn’t say that. What happened first, war like music or wickedness in their hearts? Why do you think they spent forty years in the desert?

      What you have demonstrated is your willingness to twist biblical passages to suit your argument.

      You said “90% of what I printed was a direct cut and paste. It was taken from the mouths of rock and roll artists, musicians, song writers, promoters. It is their words, not mine.” And ZERO % of what you quoted is from Christian Rockers.

      How in the world does Woodstock reflect the ideas and beliefs of Christianity? Were they singing rock gospel tunes at Woodstock? Have you ever heard of an orgy breaking out at a Christian Rock convention?

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:40pm

      Continued…

      You said, “What about slipping in a little Christian Rock. Hey, it has a good message, it just has a stronger beat. No harm, no foul.”

      I assume you don’t watch any movies other than Christian ones, oh wait, the first movies weren’t Christian. So that means even Christian movies are sinful, because the original didn’t glorify god. I assume you also don’t watch TV, especially sports. Those hot dogging clowns are clearly out only for their own glory and attention.

      But I think your example of a child dancing to rock is probably the most absurd on this thread. You clearlly have never seen children dance to Barney, Dora, or anything but rock for that matter. You should expand your horizons before making asinine comments like that.

      I think it all boils down to you probably have a personal struggle with rock, like an alcoholic with alcohol. Every Christian usually has a specific area in which they struggle, you have made it obvious yours is music. So in your case, it’s probably good that YOU don’t listen to Christian Rock if it temps you to listen to devil music, just as an alcoholic probably shouldn’t hang out in a bar.

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 6:44pm

      Continued…

      Here is when you are missing the picture by a mile. I have an Uncle that has been the definition of a hell raiser for the past 30 years. He started going to the cowboy church. This church service is held in a barn. Half of the congregation rides their horse to church and at any time you could see 5 to 15 people dipping Copenhagen or smoking. No sooner did he start going did some people close to are family start condemning the church for their unconventional way. A few months after attending he sent an email asking for prayer for his mouth. Over the years he made a habit of using GD as an adjective for the F word. It has been about a year since then and my uncle has accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. He still can be heard swearing and be seen having a beer, but has come a long way, I’m sure not near as far as you would have come, since his first service. When I see him he usually can’t wait to show me something new he learned from his bible study.

      Here is another thing you’re missing. I saw my best friend accept the Lord at a Supertones concert. After his experience at a “Christian Rock” concert he repented and turned from his worldly ways. But I guess something like that that I saw with my own eyes doesn’t meet your standards.

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 7:18pm

      @RANGERP

      Oh, one more thing. I saw your comment about 2 + 2 = 4 and not needing an open mind on issues you’re certain about. But, has there ever been a time you were sure you were right about something to the point you would bet your life on it, only to find out, even though you thought you were right beyond a shadow of a doubt, you were actually wrong. I have. Was wondering if that has ever happened to you or if you were the first one I have ever heard of that hasn’t experienced it.

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 7:20pm

      @SpeckChaser

      I am sorry, I failed to quote any (I hate to use the term) so called christian rockers, and only quoted those musicians that the christians rockers try to emulate. Sit back and enjoy quotes, facts and history of christian rockers and the Contemporary Christain Movement (CCM) . I think you will agree with me that “real” rock is evil. Notice that the so called Christian rockers all pay homage to the “real” rockers, and play the “real” rock, along with their own music.

      RANDY STONEHILL says that it was the Beatles who gave him the inspiration to play rock and roll: “Really it was after I saw the Beatles. I saw them on television when I was twelve and I knew that that was what I wanted to do” (Stonehill, cited by Devlin Donaldson, “Life Between the Glory and the Fame,” CCM Magazine, October 1981).

      The GALACTIC COWBOYS lead singer says, “I’d have to say that The Beatles are still the biggest influence on us, all the way around–except for maybe the guitar tones. They were great songwriters and vocalists” (Ben Huggins, cited by Dan Macintosh, HM magazine, September-October 1998).

      Some of DC TALK’S musical role models are the Beatles, David Bowie, and The Police, all of which are wicked secular rock groups (Flint Michigan Journal, March 15, 1996). dc Talk opened its “Jesus Freak” concerts with the Beatles’ song “Help.” During their 1999 “Supernatural Experience” tour, dc Talk performed “Hello Good-bye” by the Beatle

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 7:22pm

      @speckeled chaser (cont)

      JARS OF CLAY names Jimi Hendrix and the Beatles as their inspiration (Dann Denny, “Christian Rock,” Sunday Herald Times, Bloomington, Ind., Feb. 8, 1998). The lead guitarist for Jars of Clay is said to be a “Beatles fanatic” (Christian News, Dec. 8, 1997).

      MAYFAIR LAUNDRY, a group which got its name from a scene in a Beatle’s movie, cites influences from the Beatles to Red Hot Chilli Peppers (Heaven’s Metal Magazine, May-June 1998).

      The cover to STEVE GREEN’S It’s a Dying World album was drawn by the same artist who did the Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper album, which included pictures of satanist Aleister Crowley and LSD proponent Timothy Leary, among others.

      JOHN MICHAEL TALBOT performed Beatles songs during concerts in the late 1990s.

      In a May 1987 interview with CCM Magazine, LESLIE PHILLIPS spoke of her love for the Beatles: “[In the 1987 album The Turning] I just sort of returned to what I loved originally. You know, returning to your roots and all that. The Beatles were the first rock group I remember hearing, and I dearly love them. They were spectacular, even in their mistakes. There was a spirit in that kind of music that we don’t have today.”

      THE ROCK ‘N’ ROLL WORSHIP CIRCUS’ musical style is “reminiscent of rock’s glory days” and “combines the best elements of classic seventies style power pop ala David Bowie, The Kinks and Cheap Trick, Pink Floyd, The Beatles and U2” (from their web site).

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 7:25pm

      @ RANGERP

      Sorry for so many posts but you leave a lot to correct.

      You said, “Notice those that argue for the worldly music.”

      Please explain how Christian rock music is of the world when a large amount of the traditional hymns music your advocating for were taking from old drinking songs.

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 7:28pm

      @SPeckeled chasser (cont)

      In the song “God” (1970), Lennon sang: “I don’t believe in Bible. I don’t believe in Jesus. I just believe in me, Yoko and me, that’s reality.”

      Lennon’s extremely popular song “IMAGINE” (1971) promotes atheism. The lyrics say: “Imagine there’s no heaven … No hell below us, above us only sky … no religion too/ You may say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one/ I hope some day you’ll join us, and the world will live as one.”

      In an interview with CCM.com in October 2003 (“20 Things You Probably Don’t Know about Darlene Zschech” by Christa Farris), Zschech said that she is “a bit of a hippie at heart” and described herself as “hopelessly devoted” to rock star Olivia Newton-John. She said that her favorite movie is “anything with Julia Roberts in it.” (Roberts became a super star by playing the role of a prostitute in “Pretty Woman.”) She said the three people she would most like to meet are Billy Graham, Bono of the rock band U2, and Mother Teresa. She said that her teenage daughter’s favorite music includes the rock band Coldplay. The band’s song “We Never Change” has the lyrics “Oh I don’t have a soul to save, Yes, and I sin every single day…”

      “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9).

      “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered” (Proverbs 28:26

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    • encinom
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 8:00pm

      @Ranger Dan, there you go again with the bigotry instilled from the hate monger you listen to. I mean looking up to Mother Teresa, she’s Catholic, and we all know that only Baptists that attend the right Churches are Christian. In your world view Catholics are worse than Atheists any Christian rockers that looks towards a women that comforted the lepers, AIds victims when they were looked down upon, the poor and forgotten must be in league with the Devil. How dare someone attempt to actually live Christ’s message, instead of building Mega Churches and gathering wealth.

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 8:51pm

      @encinom

      Not sure where you are comeing from. You seem to credit a whole lot to me, that never came from me.

      -I am not talking about catholics (but I can),
      -I am not selling the Baptist church (most of what I have been writing is about baptist going liberal)
      -I do not attend a mega or wealthy church. Do attend a small fundamendal baptist church, known for supporting missions, and running busses into the poorest projects and bad neighborhoods in our area
      -I do support the school that my church runs.

      I will even give you a link to my church. Feel free to listen to some of the preaching, you might learn something. http://www.amazingrace.net/

      ranger dan the bigot man

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 8:54pm

      @Ranger

      You last posts affirms my original post. You have predicated your entire argument the false belief that certain types of wordless music are sinful and went from there. Like the liberal argument that a gun is somehow inherently evil

      You can’t quote Jars of Clays purple hazed lyrics or Mayfarir Laundry singing about suck my kiss. Jesus freak is to the tune of a doors song but if you didnt know that you would think it was a great Christian song, just like the old hymn gospel songs you love played to the original tune of drinking songs. Since every quote you posted praised the Beatles, why didn’t you quote the Christian bands subscribing to “I don’t believe in the Bible or Jesus? Surely sinful Christian rockers believe that, right? Seeing you want to back up your opinions’ with facts, please give the quote or article about a Christian rock song promoting no hell below us, no religion. Won’t address the song Help since you do not know what is about.

      You said “inspiration to PLAY rock and roll, great SONGWRITERS and VOCALIST.”

      Why didn’t you quote the Christian bands being inspired by the drug ridden, sex appealing, and rebellion inspiring theme of those bands? Those inspirations must exist, right? Your point is Christian Rock is fundamentally sinful. So what about Christian bands drawing inspiration from talented songwriters, vocalist, and instrumentalist, based on their skill levels in those areas, confused you enough to think it was sinful.

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 8:57pm

      @Speckchasser (cont)

      AMY GRANT
      “I want to play hardball in this business. I want to be on the same level professionally with performers in all areas of music. I love to hear Billy Joel, Kenny Loggins, and the Doobie Brothers. Why not? I aim to bridge the gap between Christian and pop.” (Time Mar/85)

      ” Grant’s also pragmatic about her career. Regarding her album covers and publicity photos, which portray her as a sexy, attractive young woman. The Christian pop star says,‘ I’m trying to look sexy to sell a record. But what is sexy? To me it’s never been taking my shirt off or sticking my tongue out. I feel that a Christian young woman in the eighties is very sexual’…..’When he {Prince} started humping the stage, I got a little embarrassed’, says the twenty-four-year-old Grant, sitting in the bright sunlight near the swimming pool at her Universal City hotel. ‘I quit looking. When he thrust his crotch up into the florescent shower,’she continues in her Southern drawl, ‘I thought if someone wants to do this at home, fine. If I want to do this at home, fine. I don’t want to watch Prince doing it. I didn‘t get off watching him create the illusion of masturbating’” (Rolling Stone – June 1985)

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 8:58pm

      Continued…

      I doubt you ever listened to the Evil Jimmy Hendrix but he is considered, by most knowledgeable people, one of the most talented guitarists of all time. So please explain how a guitar player aspiring to have the skill level of Hendrix is sinful. Better yet, quote the passage from the Bible saying that music alone can be evil, can you do that? No you haven’t and no you can’t.

      If your last post shows anything it is just how little you know about the process of writing, singing, and playing music. You don’t know these aspects require talent. It sounds like your knowledge of inspiration is limited but here is an easily understandable example. This is as simple as I can make it. If you don’t understand after this there is no point continuing. If a painter finds inspiration in Van Gogh’s work due to his talent, his personal beliefs and problems and opinions of God are irrelevant because the artist is drawn to his painting skills. You are under the wrong impression that a Christian Rocker who acknowledges great talent is somehow sinful.

      But again, all this is pointless because you believe Mary had a little lamb to a rock tune is sinful. Lastly I would like you to comment on my Uncle and Best friend. I have seen your argument contradicted by real life examples, but that means little to you if it doesn’t conform to your preconceived notions.

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 8:58pm

      @speckle (cont)

      STRYPER
      “The hair is long and the screams are loud‘n’clear. The clothes are tight, earrings dangling from their ears. No matter how we look, we’ll always praise His name. And, if you believe, you’ve got to do the same.” (Stryper from Loud‘n’Clear)

      “If you had to guess their name, you might think of the Devil’s Disciples or the Beelzebubs. Or perhaps the Killer Bees, which is what the four young men on stage look like in their tight leather-and spandex costumes crisscrossed with garish black and yellow stripes. Piles of makeup, spikey hair, and enough dangling chains to tie up half the elephants in Africa complete the picture of the up-to-date heavy metal rock group. Even the music, the sound of a swarm of angry insects electronically amplified several thousand times, fits the image.” (Time Mar/85)

      REZ BAND
      “A new album, Between Heaven‘N’Hell (their eighth), recently hit the streets, and with it, Rez begins its campaign aimed at winning over the secular mainstream rock audience….Rez has made a number of other moves designed to facilitate their transition to the secular market. They’ve pacted with a New York-based management/marketing firm on a four-month trial basis. They have signed with the venerable Diversified Management Agency (DMA) out of Detroit who will be handling concert bookings. (Other heavy DMA clients include the Scorpions, Quiet Riot, and Autograph.)…In order to do that, Rez is all too aware, they’re going to have t

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:01pm

      @speckled carp catcher (cont)

      MICHAEL W. SMITH
      “The people coming into the concerts are ready to rock. They come out and want to have a good time. Some people need to get out there and preach to them. Ask them for a decision at the end, but that’s not my calling. The kids I see are just ready to kick it out and have fun.” (CCM June 1986)
      STEVE TAYLOR
      “I appeared on the Dove Awards last year and I still feel uncomfortable about it. I really don‘t belong there because I’m not really part of that Gospel mainstream. Sure, I‘m a Christian and that influences the way I write songs but that’s just being honest, everybody pushes a point of view.” (CCM Feb 1986).

      LEON PATILLO
      “I’m going to make a stand. I’m going to do something different. I’m going to let the world stand up and say, ‘Wow, man, did you see that guy?‘ And it’s going to be a perfect setup. As soon as they‘ve got their mouths open or their hearts open and they’re going ‘Wow’, I’m gonna throw Jesus right down their throats.” (CCM Oct. 1985

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:03pm

      @speckled catfish man

      MYLON LeFEVRE
      “Our music is rock and roll. We don‘t even tell anybody it’s contemporary Christian music…We are a rock‘n’roll band. We sound like one, we look like one, and at the end of the night we smell like one….Its a rock‘n’roll show that is a ministry. You can’t separate the two. Rock‘n’roll is what I do. I put on a good show. I entertain those people, I have a good time with them…….One of the things Mylon may be referring to is a new album due out soon from CBS. He and the band are going by the name, Look Up. ‘It’s a Christian album, but you really have to know the Word to know it. CBS ain’t gonna know it. Every song on there – every note on there – is played by born- again, Spirit-filled Christians. We had a good time making the record. It‘s an anointed record and it’s got a good message, but it’s very shallow. We really avoided certain words and phrases, you know. It’s just about themes.” (CCM Mar 1986)

      STRYKEN
      “‘A lot of intelligent guys out there are real headbangers. They love metal, but they’ve had enough. They’re tired of hearing every sleazy metal band from Anaheim to Zimbabwe brag about how much they drink, drug, and screw.’ Not exactly churchy language, but then Stryken professes to be a band not for the pulpit but for the streets” (CCM Mar 1987)

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:04pm

      @speck man

      Do you want more quotes from your so called christian rockers and the CCM crowd. I am here to please, and willing to keep going.

      Let me know what you think?

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:17pm

      Yo RangerP:
      Did not respond to the comments of the “rockers” because I find them irrelevant. I do not care about Mick Jagger (I knew all that stuff anyway) and how he and others used the music, and the meaning of the term. I would again go back to my anology of the bat. I believe someione else used a gun with the same principle being applied.
      Didn’t speak to Moses because I did not recall the details. Try to keep my mouth shut when I don’t have all the facts, but I will study up on that ….thankyou. But it is the same idea as Mick Jagger
      There is a spirit that accompanies music and Moses heard that spirit. I would agree with you that some types of melodies would not be appropriate. An example would be one song on a CD that is that type of song, but there are 10 songs on the CD. Do I throw the CD away because of that one song… I don’t. I just never listen to it.
      You seem not to be able to seperate the toys from the toy box. DRUGS= PERSONAL lifestyle decision, SEX= PERSONAL lifestyle decision, music=__________________ It’s like one of those questions you take in an IQ test….which one doesn’t fit. Concerning my story please follow my instructions on post. I’m not going to type it again (not the fastest typer), but you are causing my skills to improve.

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:21pm

      @speck man.

      Ok now, you cannot have it both ways. You knocked me for comparing the good Christian rockers with those evil real rockers, now you want to defend the evil rockers. Do you know what way you are going with this.

      Let me get back to your hero Hendrix. He played at Woodstock (am i correct). If memory serves me correctly, Woodstock was that giant get naked; get high, jam to rock event. Kind of like the children of Israel when they worshiped the golden calf, and jammed to the war like music.

      Jimmy Hendrix killed himself with drugs. Jimmy also traveled to Africa, studied tribal voo doo music, as he wanted to incorporate the satanic worship into his own music.

      You cannot have it both ways, pick a side.
      I have shown without a doubt that the rock and roll crowd is about sex, self, rebellion, revolution, drugs…. Now I have showed you that the so called Christian rockers are no different. They play the same music, do the same drugs, and worship the same Satan.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:35pm

      Ranger,

      You apparently still have not realized you haven’t made a valid point because your whole argument is based on a falsehood. Which is what makes you think wordless music is sinful. Your quotes are irrelevant because none address that issue your pushing is sinful wordless music.

      Amy Grant = televangelist in if for the money.

      On STRYPER, Christians who judged based on appearance, which stems from little understanding of the word, is one thing that turned off my Uncle on the Lord for so long. Sounds like you’d kick a homeless person out of your church if his cloths aren’t up to your standard. Way to go. Got me on that.

      On REZ, “Rez begins its campaign aimed at winning over the secular mainstream rock audience”
      Got me again, the lord did not call us to go out and make disciples, he told us to keep with the Christian Crowd and do not mingle with non believers, as seen when Jesus refused to eat with the Tax collectors.

      On MICHAEL W. SMITH, Christians have different gifts. Some missions, some preachers, some Christian rock singers. Again you make no point. You would have a point had he said, “I refuse to lead people to Christ if given the opportunity, that’s not my calling.”

      Again you school me. How dare Michael gather a sellout crowd and fire them up for Jesus. I just hate seeing people excited about Christ.

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:36pm

      Yo Ranger Pbrain:
      Read your reply to OKIE I have read them all as we go… so just jokin with the name. You mention music being used for good and bad I have NEVER denied that… fully aware of that….What do you think my anology of the bat meant. It seems you don’t see your own words… I’m confussed. Same principle with dancing. I am like David… I will play my music inspired BY God and played back to him, and I do not care if you mock me.

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:36pm

      On STEVE TAYLOR, if he was greeted by people with your attitude who belittle his calling from Christ in life do you blame him? He is dead wrong over people PUSHING a point of view. You are certainly not doing that here.

      On LEON PATILLO, You’re on a role tonight. What is with this guy wanting to get in a position where he can spread the word of Christ to a bigger audience? Poor wording maybe but sinister evil undertone? No

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 9:49pm

      Speck and 4lies2all

      I think I rode this train about as far as it will go. Laid out a slew of info for you both. Appears you have a real sore spot for your addiction to the rock music. Good luck with it. On the plus ide, a lot of folks got on here, and while they may not have posted, they got an education that the MTV never gave them, their lib church never gave, but hopefully a few lights have turned on to reality.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:01pm

      Ranger, just ranger. No rude or otherwise anti-Christian attitude towards your name.

      You said “Do you want more quotes from your so called Christian rockers and the CCM crowd.”

      The quotes won’t stop because you’re hiding behind them. You can’t address the issue that is why you have flooded this thread with them. For as many quotes as you have provided, the same could be supplied from money hungry, lying, stealing, adulterous preachers and old hymn gospel singing traveling bands, yet no mention of those, because they disprove your point. What does that prove? That men are wicked, agreed.

      You said, “You knocked me for comparing the good Christian rockers with those evil real rockers”

      Nope, explained the idea of inspiration. Something you haven’t yet grasped. It show a lot about you if you would actually deny the talent of Hendrix to suit your cause, Sad.

      You said, “Let me get back to your hero Hendrix. He played at Woodstock (am i correct). If memory serves me correctly, Woodstock was that giant get naked; get high, jam to rock event. Kind of like the children of Israel when they worshiped the golden calf, and jammed to the war like music.”

      That is a perfect example of your delusional belief that you have a point. Woodstock and the children of Israel were not worshipping the lord. So tying those examples to music that does is, once again, delusional.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • Joeyp22
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:14pm

      @RangerP

      Music to these people is amoral. They have no concept of what music truly is. Within the realm of Godly music there is liberty. You see, they don’t understand beat, rythm, melody and the effects it has or doesn’t have. You hit the nail on the head when you stated that these contemporary mega churches that claim they are “Evangelical Christians” are the very ones having huge problems. We are all human and as long as we live in this flesh we will battle against sin but these mega churches don’t preach on sin they preach come as you are and I will tell you they leave as they were.

      I must quote this verse because SPECCHASER, ENIMACOM, NOTRUTH2ALL will not listen to truth regardless of what truth you quote. So please heed this verse!
      Proverbs 26:4 “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.”

      I don‘t intend to offend but truth does offend and the KJV Bible is offensive to those who don’t believe. I think we should lovingly present truth and when it falls on deaf ears heed Proverbs 26:4

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    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:15pm

      RANGERP

      You said, “sore spot for your addiction to the rock music”

      That may be you biggest wrong assumption yet. I can’t stand rock music; it is not appealing to me. You confusing admission of talent for enjoyment of a type of music highlight the low level of critical thinking that has me worried about this country.

      You said “I think I rode this train about as far as it will go.”

      Strange you would leave without addressing the most important issue, the scripture that condemns wordless musical tones as sinful. For one griping about having it both ways you sure rode you delusional idea that rock used for debauchery should also condemn God glorifying rock. And hey, you may actually be convinced that only Christian Rockers have taken advantage of the Lords name to make a buck, if so it explains a lot.

      Couldn’t help but notice you ducking my request for your opinions on my uncle and best friend. But in all, I know your heart is in the right placed and you soul rest in our Lords hands. You may be a little misguided on this issue but who is perfect. Overall, thanks for protecting this country we both love so much. I have to hit the sack but I’m looking forward to waking up and seeing your post quoting scripture concerning sinful musical tones and not your twist on scripture to support your claims.

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:16pm

      Joeyp22:
      First… you did not answer my question to you… instead you send a complete new reply. That is not a conversation, if you are indeed talking to me… don’t like being talked at. I hope you can type fast because your post was usless to me I have not been a believer for 2 days, 2 years, or 20 for that matter. I am not a baby… you speak to me as one. Don’t want to seem arogant.
      + the list of words… didn’t know winebibbers… I think God will forgive me + concerning number of words… every version is different from the next and I could give you sites and people that say the KJV is one of the worst translations.
      + as far as asking God for truth did that over 20 years ago and still do… if you got some fine. I’m finding that people should make alot more effort making their own light brighter, and stop buggin about others so much.
      + 2 timothy 2:15 Don‘t know why it’s not there….don’t care. The Holy Spirit leads me to study. I will say the way that reads is exactly why I personally do not like the KJV… and again God is not worried about it.
      Actually right know I would not mind a cold beer, or is that evil to you?
      The rat poison anology doesn’t work either. Depends what 2% you take out.
      I study the Word, listen to many, many hours of teaching, read books. They say a good conversation is when 2 people listen………………..blessings

      Report Post »  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:27pm

      @JOEYP22

      Hi brother. I am off to bed tonight. That will give you about 7 hours before I wake up to go to work to quote the passage that condemns lyric free music based on beat, rhythm, or melody alone. A verse instructing on moral musical tones will also suffice.

      You may think me a fool and that’s fine. But please explain how I am participating in sin if I to listen to Christian Rock music. That is what we are talking about tonight.

      Lastly, that is a great verse you quoted. You have just inspired me to read in proverbs, one of my favorite books of the Bible, before I close my eyes tonight. Thanks and can’t wait for your post.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 10:32pm

      @Speck Chaser

      Have you ever seen the picture of Amy Grant rocking out with Michael W Smith while in concert and using the El Diablo sign with her hand? Now why would a “Christian” person worshipping God in Rock-n-roll have a desire to use a sign associated with the Devil and Satanists. 

      I’m not condemning Michael or anything of the likes but am using this as an example of a personal desire to mimic the world with this type of music. When we began to mimic the world it leads to being worldly sometimes not even consciously realizing it until we no longer are praising God but simply just being worldly. 

      Some of your logic is off; if I am to witness to a crackhead do I go and do crack with them praising God for the crack? No. How much money do these rock-n-rollers make off glorifying God with rock music? Are we to charge for sharing God’s Word? So the intention is to make $$$$ not worship at these concerts……

      Listen to what you wish. I hope these conversations lead to a better awareness by all who read our words of the reason for music, to worship God. 

      Good debate and keep seeking truth….

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:01pm

      yo ranger:
      You previously acussed me of being addicted to rock…. I corrected that incorrect statement, yet after correction you again do it…. thankyou you make part of my point yourself. Stubbornness is not of the Lord… you are right ….easy

      Joeyp22
      Again… you can not be talkin to me…. played music since 10…. understand purpose, music theory, etc….so your statement is one of at the least ignorance and sure seems like arrogance….you need to go vist that cafateria I spoke to you about… you speak evils to me…. blessings to you.

      Report Post »  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:07pm

      @Okie

      Hi Brother. Agree completely about Amy Grant. Earlier I equated her to a televangelist only in it for the money. We are instructed to be in the world but not of it.

      Some of my posts earlier were extremely heavy on the sarcasm. In no way do I believe in partaking in sin to win over the lost and apologize if it came across that way

      God blessed Solomon with riches beyond compare. So money alone doesn’t raise a flag, but if these rockers are taking advantage of the Lords name for profit that is sinful and that is my opinion of Mrs. Grant.

      I have not stuck up for traditional rock music and also find people offensive who would tie that debauchery to Christian rock to advance an unfounded agenda. My one and only point on this thread has been that I can find no Biblical reference condemning certain types of musical tones as sinful. I also do not comprehend how some believe the old rugged cross set to modernized guitar and drum would be classified as sin.

      I have asked numerous times if someone could cite a Bible verse correcting me on sinful music. No one has. But they have tried to paint me as a lover of Anti-Christian rock who idolizes those rockers. None of which is true. The main point is the ones saying Christian rock is sinful, as of now; have yet to back it up Biblically.

      Keep up your posting. I have always enjoyed your comments.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:09pm

      Music is a gift from God to sing praise to Him, about Him, and for Him. Please notice that a lot and many of the “rock-n-roll” bands in Churches don’t sing about God, for God, or to God. It‘s about them and a lot don’t mention God at all. The reason is they aren’t doing it to praise God, they are doing it to be cool and be worldly. To find “acceptance” in the world. The things held highly among Men, rock-n-roll, is an abomination unto God. 

      I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing PRAISE to thy name, O thou most High. Psalm 9:2

      The Lord is my strength and my shield, my heart trusted in Him and with my song willI praise Him! Psalms 28:7

      And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is ABOMINATION in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

      “But he [Jesus] turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, SATAN: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of MEN.” Matthew 16:23

      That’s all I got to say about that. Again, good debate from all, except Encinom :-P,  and if nothing our words shine light for many to find awareness to how to praise God with our hearts song. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:24pm

      Yo joeyp22 & rangerp
      joeyp22…You mock my name by writing it “notruth2all” and then YOU post a verse that speaks to addressing a fool…. might want to reconsider that… that is NOT the way God asks you to use his Word…. and that is truth… so I got some!

      Rangerp… you mock by writing my name “4lies2all’ do you feel good now? Cheap shot…I may not be right in all that I have said, but I certainly have not lied….. so much for the coffee and I would have bought. based on your posts I don’t expect an apology.

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:30pm

      @Speck Chaser

      I appreciate your comments as well. The only way we know why we do things is to look at intentions. Musics purpose, the intention we perform, is to praise him. A guitar, piano, or drum is not bad as Ranger P tries to explain. The intention to be more the like the world, “to find our place in this world” :-), is what is good or bad. 

      I’ll be candid with you, I’ve heard every Michael W Smith song he ever made while I was younger and I was down with the DC Talk… Looking at them now I can see there is a line, intention, and while some speak or make slight indications about God a lot do not so they are more accepted by the world. It’s a slow snowball leading to music without God in it. 

      All we can do is be aware and make good judgement with our own heart song for God. If the words match and praise God, I’m good with it. I’ve just found most “rock-n-roll“ is simply a mimic to be ”rock-n-roll” and less about praising God. 

      Hope you have a good night and thanks again for an open debate. It’s what we should always do. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:38pm

      4Truth2All

      Come on 4Truth, I think Ranger P was kidding back with your last address of “Ranger PBrain”. I have really never known Ranger P to be one to insult. Let‘s keep good spirit and laugh as we seek God’s truth. 

      I’m sure Ranger P if he sees your address will say the same. Smile my friend. God is good! Hope your nights good my friend. Peace out! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • WhiteFang
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 11:51pm

      Joey, you asked; “Do you know what text the NWT of the Bible(Jehovah’s Witness) get theirs from?”

      Why don’t you tell us, since you are so smart?
      Come on, tell us why the NWT is in error, and why you want to discredit a English translation of the Holy Word of God. Give us a complete answer and do not use the words ‘I think’ in your response.
      If you remain silent on this, I will consider you to be a person without proper knowledge of the subject.

      Report Post » WhiteFang  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 12:05am

      @Okie

      There is also another issue I can now cover more in depth. RANGERP knowingly twisting Bible verses to suit his argument.

      RANGERP said, “What did their music sound like to Moses? If memory serves me correctly, it was as the “sound of war”. What music would that be?

      RANGERP memory told him Moses heard Sound of War which is incorrect. Also told him the people were naked and having sex, much like Woodstock. They were naked but there is no mention of sex. Most importantly Moses said “but the noise of them that sing do I hear.” They is no mention of music what so ever. Especially no guitars and drums that ranger is castigating.

      So to sum up. Moses did not say he heard sounds of war. No mention of them having sex. No mention of the music ranger has ranted against this whole thread.

      Here is the proof. Straight from the KJV

      Exodus 32: 17-26

      17And when JOSHUA heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
      18And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
      19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 12:07am

      Exodus continued…

      20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
      21And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?
      22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
      23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
      24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
      25And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)
      26Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD’s side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

      Now should I hold my breath for a correction from RANGERP, guess time will tell. Meanwhile, I will still be waiting for the verse condemning lyricless tones as sinful.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • WhiteFang
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 12:09am

      JoeyP22,
      You made that disparaging comment at September 29, 2011 at 1:25pm

      Report Post » WhiteFang  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 12:19am

      @Okie, Once again sorry for the amount of post

      The main point of that passage was Joshua thought he heard sounds of an actual Battle. Moses disagreed saying I do not hear the winning or losing sounds of a battle, but the sound of singing.

      For Ranger to imply the sound of battle Joshua heard was anything other than the actual sound of a battle, especially implying in was a rock concert orgy, is as deceptive as the “Christian rockers” using the name of the Lord to make a buck that he has been condemning.

      I believe that is all I have as of now.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 1:02am

      @Speck Chaser

      I will say Woodstock was nothing but an rock n roll orgy.  Drugs, sex, and rock n roll. Rebellion was the theme. I think you agree with that. 

      17And when JOSHUA heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
      18And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.

      Josh hears noise of war but Moses says he doesn’t hear victory or defeat being proclaimed but singing. Singing to what is the question. Moses corrected a war noise to Josh, war noises aren’t pleasant, to singing. Why would Josh associate singing to war noise? 

      19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount

      Josh thought it was a war, Moses said it was singing and when they actually got there Moses saw the idol they were dancing for and apparently singing to. 

      I see it as Moses was upset for the idol, for singing a war noise in Joshes view, to the idol and for dancing for the idol. What do you believe the noise Josh heard as war was? An actual war? 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 1:06am

      As for the lyric less music: the purpose of music is to praise God. How does one who‘s listening know the intention of the music without God’s praise being proclaimed? Please hear me, I’m not condemning lyric less music. The simple title of the lyric less music can proclaim it’s for God. I hope that makes sense. I’ll check back tomorrow for your thoughts. 

      Off to sleepy sleepy land for me! 

      @WhiteFang

      Good to see your post. Would love to hear your thoughts. Hope you are doing well. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:55am

      White Fang

      I think I can jump in and help Jeop22 out on this one. As it is pretty simple to answer. The NWT used the Classical Greek, not biblical Greek (Koine Greek).

      http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Jehovah%20Witnesses/new_world_translation.htm

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:10am

      @Oakie

      Once again, good job of pointing out the obvious.

      I am not quite sure I can follow speck on his wordless music stuff. Does getting rid of the words make something better? I think we established that Hendrix killed himself with drugs, literally looked to incorporated African devil worship into his music, he was part of the evil at Woodstock…. What does talent have to do with rock music being evil or for the devil? Some waste their talent.

      Here is another one that seemed to slip over people head on comparison.

      The worship of the Golden Calf was evil and was a form of Satan worship (all idol worship is).

      The children of Israel were naked, singing, and worshiping Satan. There was a loud noise that accompanied this celebration or devil worship, and it was heard a long way off. There was not a war, it was a naked party of worship.

      Woodstock had loud rock music, people got naked, had sex, and the entire event was anti christian.

      If a person cannot see the comparison I am making, then they do not want to see it.

      Music can be good, it can be bad. If you can make a joyful noise to the Lord, then you can make one that is not joyful. Not a deep, and hard to understand concept.

      Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:39am

      1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

      Notice that there is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man. Meaning there is no new temptation. it is the same old stuff. In the day of moses, there was unholy music, naked worship party, that displeased God.

      Hey Speck. When folks worship Satan, get naked, and danced around a giant idol, do you think sex would go along with that evil worship. generally when a mass of people all get naked, sex is part of it. Once again. At Woodstock. folks got naked, danced around, and we know for certain they had sex, and used drugs. If you fail to see the comparison, then you do not want to see it.

      We know that David danced and pleased God, the children of israel danced around the calf displeased God. We can deduce that there is good dance, and bad dance. Is it a far stretch to think that there can be good music, and bad music.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:46am

      @Speck

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOoQ9pDgCgE

      Watch the above clip, and tell me who is being worshiped.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • arckangjell
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 10:20am

      There is no such thing as premarital sex Jesus Christ said “If a man & a woman are one flesh they already are married”.

      Report Post »  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 10:23am

      Yo Okie:
      Not addicted to rock but sure am seeming to have a problem getting away from this post.Your last post to me… Didn’t happen…should have…I did get a little frustrated… having gotten some sleep, I’d still buy the coffee even though I have been insulted, but that is what God is working on here. He is working on the hearts of men and some of it has nothing to do with the topic of discussion. I have humbly tried to point this out without being self-righteous. I am going to say what I need to say here. Music is kind of a passion of mine… listening and playing: I have composed my own recordings and have software that is close to professional in quality. I will first offer my take on Moses Joshua hears SOUND; the sound is one of being at war. Moses does not correct him, he only states that it is neither victory or defeat, which to me means it is on-going. At no place that I read does it say they were naked (do not add to), they were paryting. I lived the life for many years. Partying does not mean naked orgies. When people do that association thing; that is there own heart issue. So, what was the on-going war sound?….. they were worshipping idols = war against God. This means that the sound was a sound of war against God and that is FOOLISH and what was calling God to war against the Israelites. God heard the sound on the mountain top when Moses did not. It is evidence for our justly jealous God…continued…

      Report Post »  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 11:04am

      Okie … contiuned:
      I have used the NKJV and the santanic NIV along with the posts KJV. They are all different from one to another and actually think that the NKJV on these verses make it easiest to understand. Mastery = victory, and overcome = defeat. The verses mention shouts/noise,sound/singing, the satanic NIV only uses the word sound, guess I need to burn it and get the devil out of my house. Get out of here you devil you!!!….there I put it outside in the yard….long as I don‘t go in the yard I’m good…. why didn‘t God tell me that’s all I had to do? Back to the issue now that the devil is gone (least for me!). I made an anology that “ranger”; a parable if you will, has yet to address….. I (creator) make a bat, I give that bat to my son, my son wacks the boy across the street because he took his GI Joe, (I”da hit him to), but I’m the dad, so you know…I gave the bat to my boy to play baseball…. point.. the bat (music) is not sinful, the boy (sin) is full of sin. Will add here…. I as the “father” (God) gave the bat (skill) to my son (us). he took that bat and mis-used it. Why?… it’s what sons do. I correct him, a wise son pleases his father. I teach him how to use that bat so one day he will enter the hall of fame (heaven)…. well done my good and faithful son! In boldness; what I have just spoken is truth from the Lord, and wrote it down as God gave it to me. AND THIS I KNOW… there is no error in my story.
      continued…

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 11:32am

      @arckangjell
      What do you call it, when a young person goes out, has sex with vaious women, marries none of them, the later on, gets married?

      I think most of us would believe that he had sex outside of marriage, then later married.

      I think most of us christians believe you are to get married, then have sex. Many are having what some call casual sex. there is nothing casual about it, and it is destructive.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • WhiteFang
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 11:34am

      RangerP,

      Thanks for responding and trying to help out Joey, but I want Joey to explain his evidence that the NWT is not an accurate English language translation of the Holy Scriptures.
      When a person compares the reading of any verse in the NIV, KJV, NKJV, and the NWT, there can only be a more complete and well rounded understanding of God’s Word. It is good to compare and use various Bibles and not to be locked in to just one. Understanding the scriptures should be the goal, not to hold on to pre-conceived prejudices and doctrines.

      BTY – I enjoy your comments as they are thoughtful and well written. :-)

      Report Post » WhiteFang  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 11:48am

      Okie continued:
      God gives talents… Jimmy Hendricks is a great example. He was left handed (so am I) but he used a right handed guitar which means everything is backward (I do the same). Why? it’s what I had. if my memory serves me right Hendricks was self taught and he used the only he had (no money) many places don’t stock left handed guitars. and for sure the inventory it limited. He did things never done before. I could go on here but I think I will make my piont here another way.

      Instrumental mucic has been brought up … I would like to address. When I was heavely into music I gravitated toward instrumentaly based groups. One reason was I did not have to listen to words that I did not like even as an unsaved youth, and I could simply enjoy the music! The purpose of the musician was irrelevant…. I…. could simply enjoy a gift from God. The music could be very complex or brain dead simple.
      I compose and record instrumental music with the purpose of Glorifing God. That music can be soft, sad, happy, waring, loud, basic, complex, different, known, praising, standing in awe, mysterious, humble.
      I do not boast in myself here… I played (not at present, taking a season off) for 2 hours straight in a House of Prayer ( the LORD said in ISAIAH.. my house shall be called a house of prayer), this is based on the idea of Davids 24/7 in the temple. I play, others quote scripture and pray in song, we work many times through the Psalms…. continued

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 12:18pm

      Yo 4Truth2All

      :-) I appreciate your satire. Be careful treading thru the yard! Ha! 

      Many times while studying God’s word I go to biblegateway.com so I can look a KJV, NIV, NKJV and all the other types to compare and feel for myself what’s being said. I personally like to understand and that is how I find it. I lean on the KJV but I always look for understanding.

      I could almost promise if we were worshipping good God almighty and you were up on the keys playing it out for God, Hendrixing the Guitar for God, or beating the drums, you would see Ranger P clapping and singing it out right along with every note you play. Heck, he might even dance like David! :-) I could be wrong but I think he would see your intention was for God. 

      Jimmy Hendrix wasted God’s talent manifested in him. They were not Jimmy’s talents, they were God’s he loaned Jimmy and Jimmy used them not for God. My Dad use to explain to me everything I had as a child was his he had on loan to me and anytime he felt to take his stuff back, he would. I appreciated them a lot more after that. 

      I am glad you, Ranger P, Speck Chaser and all above for talking with me and for all to see about God and how we should praise him. As you said, it speaks to the hearts of many and not just over music. You have my respect 4Truth! I hope one day I hear your music for God!

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 12:37pm

      Okie continued:
      ( again not boasting) when I play I always pray that god help me. I have no music in front of me and play no known songs. I play in my spirit. my playing is structured as people sing along. it is known as improvisional playing. People can come in and be part of the praise. On occasion people will tell me that they had “visions” from God while I played, and they would tell what they were. On occasion the singers ( ladies) would be in tears as I played. There are times when the presence of the Lord is powerful. I would have no idea that God was using my playing to speak to others this way, completely unaware of it. It was /is not because of my superior playing abilities. It is because I went there to Glorify God and HE did the talking through the music I played. Whatever style !!!!!!! What I have spoken here can be found in the Word of God ( sorry for the little g in previous post). Ranger says that he cannot be defeated because he has 2+2=4 math in his position. I have agreed with him when I believe we see the same TRUTH according to God/ not me. his math is 1.9+1.9=4 and he refuses to see it. I can not argue 2+2=4 he is correct… I can argue 1.9+1.9=4. the bible says that a man should not think more of himself than he ought to…. consider others before you… I am trying to remain humble and do this as I post. Is he?… by his actions it does not appear that way. I am sure that if/ when my posts are tested by fire not all will remain.

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 12:59pm

      @4truth2all

      Over 90% of what I posted was all cut and pasted. I just took the words from the mouths of the rockers, and the so called christain rockers. I took facts, history about their drug use, and other imorality.

      I stated earlier, I am a nothing an nobody. My opinion means jack squat. Others did some pretty serious home work, and I used their work to back up the obvious. Plenty on here that are way more skilled with the english language and debating. This was not so much of a debate, as it was a schooling of sorts. I highly doubt most that read this, ever really looked at music in the way this blog laid it out.

      Drugs, sex, and rock and roll. lyrics or no lyrics, we lump them together for a reason.

      Just so you know, this section of this blog cranked out over 31,000 words

      -”I’m gonna put a curse on you and all your kids will be born completely naked”.
      Jimi Hendrix

      -”When I die, I want people to play my music, go wild and freak out and do anything they want to do”.
      Jimi Hendrix

      -”I try to use my music to move these people to act.”
      Jimi Hendrix

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 1:02pm

      “Music is my religion.”
      ― Jimi Hendrix

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 1:23pm

      Okie.. continued;
      I was going to finish my commenting with another post but I saw your reply. I believe what you said about Hendrix was my point and agree. I was thinking… what would have happened to the way he played if we would have received the revelation of Christ. and his heart changed truly. Would his style of music change ? I am sure his words would. There are a number of artists that have done this and there style of playing has not changed much.
      I can still listen to Hendrix and actually appreciate the music MORE at this point in my walk with God. I listen to “rock” rarely, but I could. I did just rent a DVD of Deep Purple recorded in 2000, so they were much older. There was no point in watching it that, that I felt convicted by God, and I try to be sensitive to the spirit, Maybe my walk is not as straight as Rangers but if he feels as you have stated in you reply then why does he not respond by saying so ?….. YOU LISTENING RANGERP… Okie… I am not trying to pit you against him and hope I do not put you in a compromising position. He has not apologized and certainly has had time to do so, as he has posted. I do not play foot stomping music and THAT IS ONE OF MY POINTS. Hendrix did not play foot stomping music, yo! There is a massive amount of “rock” music that is not get up and dance on the ceiling music. Can you tap your feet… yep, keep beat with your hands…yep. Want to say more, but I will wait a moment… RANGERP

      Report Post »  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 1:50pm

      @Truth

      Not exactly sure what you are asking me to appologize for? We had a discussion on music. I laid out pages of quotes from various artists, performers, writers….

      Did I miss something?

      RangerP

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 1:59pm

      4Truth2All
      Ranger P

      You both are saying pretty much the same thing just with different words and from different perspectives. I don’t think neither of you are condemning the other but simply speaking your truths for the other. Let me elaborate. 

      Hendrix’s music would have been different if he had been singing for God, IMO, as the Spirit of God would have led his God given talents, not the evil spirits that led him which turned into rock-n-roll praising sex, drugs, etc. The tone might be similar but I do not believe it would have been as extreme. He wouldn’t be rocking he would be praising and those are different spirits. I believe that is what Ranger P is trying to say. I believe 4Truth is saying you can beat the drums, strum the strings, and strike the keys for God all the while tapping, clapping and jumping for joy, the joy of God. 

      The point being missed is rock-n-roll, the spirit of it, was to be bad, rebellious, and praise being that way. That is the spirit of the rock-n-roll movement. That spirit led to that type of music. Praising God doesn’t mix with praising rebellion. If you notice the harder the music, Godsmack, the harder the rebellion. There is no way my spirit could worship God to the tone of GodSmack. Those who rocked before and found God tone their music down more and more year after year as their spirit comes more in tune with God. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 2:10pm

      We must find truth the rock-n-roll movement was not Church led but rebellion led. That was the whole point and spirit of the movement, rebellion. As believers can we see wasted talent in this movement, yes. As believers can we be in harmony with God’s spirit and take tones and tweak them to praise God, not for the spirit of the talent but because it’s talent, I believe so to some degree. The spirit of God is a peaceful spirit wouldn’t you say? It is honor, love, respect, care, and praise. That spirit can not in any way harmonize with the spirit of rebellion. 

      As I stated before there is a fine line, one a good pastor teaches and makes aware of to those worshipping. To tell young musicians for God how music is spirit led and what spirits not to follow or be tempted by. You both have great points and great insight. As a team, you two would be unbeatable. Find your peace as I see you both love Jesus Christ and that’s awesome!  I hope you both have a good day and I appreciate you both and always look forward to both of your thought provoking comments. Keep fighting the good fight! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 2:14pm

      yo RangerP:
      I would like to end this well…. do you?
      Okie thought you were joking concerning your 4lies2all I did not… were you?…no lying.!
      I am going to give you some scripture which makes my whole case…please read 1 Corinthians chapter 8 it would take to long for me to type and is the reason I don’t do this. PLEASE read it. I will comment in a bit.

      Report Post »  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 2:59pm

      Yo Rangerp:
      Good day… IF directed at me … music is not MY religion.
      Concerning 1Cor.8…. Rock music may effect you in a way that does not effect me, as that is where we are in our individual walks through life with God. A friend explained this way… one man can go to the beach because he has mastered his eyes, another cannot so he should not go there. He added… that’s why we go to the woods. I am the man in the woods that can listen to rock music. What may cause you to stumble I step right over, and what may cause me to stumble you step right over. I have no right to lay a ‘LAW“ on you that you have ”FREEDOM” in, in Christ. There is freedom in Christ, surely that freedom is not to sin. Paul says..heaven forbid!
      I did not get involved in the individual artists for this very reason, because now I sin and play God by binding that which is set free, and start judging the persons heart, this is God’s job not ours. This is what I have been saying from the start… maybe very poorly.. my apologies if so.
      Again, If what you are doing is pleasing to God ( He’s ok with it ) I have no right to tell you otherwise. I can rock the house and those in attendence can dance an earthquake and it is a pleasing aroma to the Lord, NO man has a right to open the door and yell in, in judgement “stop this revelry”!
      This is self- righteousness, not righteousness from the Lord.

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 4:00pm

      Yo Okie:
      Wanted to say thanks for the mediating. You look for truth and in doing so don’t take sides. This at times can be difficult. Job well done… checks in the mail. I did not want to make this about me by saying so many personal things, but that is why I have spoken so much here. Let me know what style of music you enjoy. Offered the olive branch to Ranger, hope he takes it…, Peace… bro!

      Report Post »  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 4:10pm

      The Corinthians were asking, not for themselves they were “knowledgeable”, but how to get people to eat meat that was sacrificed to idols. They were bringing their culture into the Church. 

      Paul points out knowledge without love is ignorance. Paul explains there is idols are not real and there is one God and one Lord, which they being “knowledgeabl” knew. Paul didn’t point out, though he sure could have, that in the council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:29) he said to refrain from eating meats sacrificed to idols. Instead he blasted them subtly:
      “For through thy knowledge he that is weak perisheth, the brother for whose sake Christ died!”

      Paul was saying you may know everything, idols are fake and only one God, but thru your ignorant knowledge, knowledge without love, you cause your weakest brother to fall, perish and follow sin. 

      Paul then says:
      “And thus, sinning against the brethren, and wounding their conscience when it is weak, ye sin against Christ!”

      By not loving your weakest brother with your knowledge, you are actually sinning against Christ. Your I know everything actions lead to weak one going astray. 

      Paul then says he would from refrain from eating meat if and when it will cause his weakest brother to fall. That is love and knowledge.

      Some might understand “rock” music as music for there is one God but the weak may not and if brought into a church might cause them to go astray. 

      I gotta finish up my work. Appreciate this debate. Peac

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 4:21pm

      4Truth2All

      I did nothing you wouldn’t do for me. You are welcome though and anytime. It is about you and me and ranger P, it’s a quest for truth for us all. I really do enjoy speaking with you all. It’s fun stuff! 

      I actually have a respect for all different types of music. One that knows there is one God can take almost any music and turn it for God. I’m not a musician by nature but lyrics I could write daily. Weird eh…I do wish as a kid I learned an instrument so I decided to teach myself the keys and am in the progress of doing so. Mind over matter right? You don’t mind, it don’t matter! 

      Keep the faith, keep seeking truth, keep loving God. Laters my friend! 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 4:48pm

      Yo Okie:
      I wanted to mention the point of the weak brother, so I’m glad you did. You alluded to this in previous post concerning the wisdom of the leadership in the church. Good point.
      Keyboards… find on-line a site that has a ….Hanon (the Virtuso Pianist) in sixty exercises For the piano. Learn your fingering and those exercises will help them go where there supposed to. Takes time and patience. . . God bless your efforts…peace

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    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 5:01pm

      @4truth2all

      I will read your suggested reading later on. Still not exactly sure what you got offended about. Just glossed over real quick on the last few posts. Been busy with the All Army Sniper Comp on Fort Bennng today.

      I know yesterday we did a little name change messing around. You called me ranger p brain (pretty good description), and I changed truth to lie in your name. If it offended you, then I appologize. No intention to offend/

      I did put some quotes down for you on Hendrix. Kind of shows where he came from.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:36pm

      @Ranger

      If your argument is anti-Christian rock is sinful, Hendrix didn’t believe in God, past and future Christian rockers will exploit Jesus to make a buck, the Israelites worshipping a calf is comparable to Woodstock and sinful, or the KJV is a more accurate translation, I agree.

      However, none of that pertains to our discussion. Please stop addressing those issues. I disagree that music alone, with no words or intent, can be sinful. Please begin to debate that issue.

      I asked if The Old Rugged Cross played to guitar and drums would glorify God. You said “if I served you two scoops of ice cream from a dirty ashtray would it glorify your taste buds? You believe rock music, with no words or intent, in and of its self are sinful. If you believe that, fine. Let’s debate it. At what tone does a guitar chord cross the line of sinfulness? Who decides which beats of a drum are sinful? I have looked in my KJV and found nothing that addresses those questions and did not find it discussing music alone as sinful. That is why I have continued to ask you to quote what you’re claiming.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:37pm

      Cont…

      You said “The worship of the Golden Calf was evil and was a form of Satan worship…Woodstock had loud rock music, people got naked, had sex, and the entire event was anti Christian. If a person cannot see the comparison I am making, then they do not want to see it.
      This is where you are fundamentally missing my point. Think about this carefully. You are comparing Woodstock, a sinful event, to worshipping a golden calf, a sinful event, in hopes of condemning a separate and non comparable sinless event, Christian rock. How is that intellectually honest? You are trying to draw a comparison between glorifying God and Satanism. Why then do you use two satanic examples to prove your point?

      In what court could you make this case? We have three people. It has been proved that two are murders. The third is against murder. But humans are from the same “dirty ashtray,” the third must also be a murderer.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 6:38pm

      Cont…

      You said, “We know that David danced and pleased God, the children of Israel danced around the calf displeased God. We can deduce that there is good dance, and bad dance. Is it a far stretch to think that there can be good music, and bad music?”

      You just made my point and contradicted your argument. Dancing is the common denominator, but has no effect over the outcome. Until you changed you stance, you were saying, dancing (rock music in are argument) is sinful. So even though David’s (Christian rocker’s in our example) heart was in the right place, he was drinking from the devils cup. That is the absurdity I am debating you over.
      Who was David dancing for? God. Who were the Israelites dancing for? Satan. Now, do you actually believe what made one of these examples are bad because of the dancing steps they used? That is absurd. The difference is what their hearts are glorifying, one sinful, one not.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:55pm

      @Okie

      Hey Brother.My point is music alone isn’t sinful. Ranger said the Old Rugged Cross is sinful if played to a rock tune and is like serving God a “scoop of ice cream from a dirty ashtray”. I disagree Gospel music, or happy birthday for that matter, played to rock is sinful. That is what I have tried to debate. A lot has been lost responding to his examples covering other argument and is where the confusion comes in.

      My view on the war like sound is speculation and I’m no Biblical scholar. I imagine war at that time sounded like grown men yelling, grunting, or whatever sounds you would hear from a fistfight, not the sounds of rifles and artillery. I figure atop the mountain, josh probably heard a rumbling inaudible roar.

      Moses corrected him saying it was singing he heard. I do not believe he was referring to the singing of melodies like we here in our worship services but something more along the lines of chants, to satan of course, being hollered at the top of their lungs. I do not think Josh thought there was a war going on, just battle like yells and grunts I have mentioned.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 7:56pm

      Continued…

      The worshipping of the calf Ranger mentioned is irrelevant to my point. The point I was making in response to that was he is distorting, knowingly or unknowingly, those verses to suit his agenda. There is no mention of music of any kind. I figure, since music is mentioned in celebrations elsewhere in the Bible, there was probably no music around the calf. If Jesus sees certain musical tones as sinful, I think there would have been mention to it in the verse, or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter. That is just my opinion.

      I am not advocating for lyric-less music. But through Rangers diversions, the idea that I am has been brought up. I questioned him on lyric less music only because he believes gospel lyrics can be sinful if played to rock. So logically, if the words are Christian, he believes musical tones themselves are sinful. That is how that point was brought up and that is what he has yet to debate.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • rangerp
      Posted on September 30, 2011 at 10:20pm

      @speck dude

      Look up 2 Timothy 2 :14 and apply to your study on Music

      The Bible does not say “thou shalt not look at computer porn” but I can study the bible, and know that it is sinful.

      I have beat this dead horse into a greasy spot of nothing. If you do not see Rock as wordly and demonic, then we just see it different. You will not stand before me and answer for you music, I am not the standard bearer for music.

      I without a doubt, know rock to be evil. With the words, without the words. Study the passage about putting new wine in an old wine skin.

      I can not give you a verse that says AC DC beat is sinful. I can look at AC DC, see what they stand for, and make a determination. It is called being discerning. Some people lack discernment.

      You will have to figure it out for yourself, I can not spoon feed you. there is enough on this site to keep you busy for a while, read it again, and study.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 2:56am

      RANGER

      I like the “your to ignorant to understand and I have discernment which you lack argument.” It says a lot about you. Again you show INABLITY to grasp the topic. Congrats, you’re wise enough to discern AC DC isn’t a Christian band, which is completely irrelevant. Pat yourself on the back.

      Let me you show you what a valid point for your argument would look like. You need to say “If you do not see CHRISTIAN Rock as worldly and demonic, then we just see it different,” because that’s what I, not you, am debating.

      “The Bible does not say thou shalt not look at computer porn”

      That specific example is addressed by the sin it is encompassed by, lust, adultery etc. You SHOULD however be able to provide scripture that encompasses the topic of sinful music. AGAIN, cite me ANY Bible verse to support your claim. Surely a self admitted wise man that can cite hundreds of irrelevant quotes can provide this three day old request.

      Sounds alone aren’t evil. God would have made the distinction if they were as he is the decider of the sinful and non-sinful, not you. Dancing is the common denominator in your David/Israelite example, as music is in mine, but hearts intention is the deciding factor. One was pleasing one was sinful. Same for the rock vs. Christian rock argument. If you want to continue to say the Old Rugged Cross played with guitar is sinful, knock yourself out.

      But please refrain from replying if you’re going to continue to dodge the i

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 4:04am

      Ranger

      Music was created By God for his worship. After looking at mark 7 verses 20-23, it is hard to understand how you believe someone praising Jesus could be sinful.

      Also hard to believe you classify some instrumental tones as sinful after reading Psalm 150 which calls for praise to Jesus from, which sounds like every instrument available, like the Trumpet, psaltery, harp, timbrel, dance, stringed instruments (plural form which means every string instrument AKA guitars), organs, even loud cymbals

      Psalm 150

      1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
      2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
      3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
      4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
      5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
      6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD

      Mark 7: 20-23

      20 And he said , That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

      I’ll ask again. Have you ever known you were right beyond a shadow of a doubt only to find out you

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 4:08am

      were wrong.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • rangerp
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 5:05am

      @Speck

      “Also hard to believe you classify some instrumental tones as sinful”

      no, you are wrong. I do not clasiffy anything as sin. I am a simple little nobody, and it is not my place to classify anything.
      I do have a bible that I can read, and figure out that which is sin.

      Show me one place in the thousands of words I printed where i use “instrumental tones” those are your words.

      Rock music is filth, it is sinful, it is of the devil, it can not be used for the glory of God. Period/

      Drugs, sex, and Rock and Roll ( all three are tied to rebellion). notice it was not drugs, sex, and rock and oh yea, make sure your devil music has lyrics, or the christians may steal it and Glorify God with it,

      You are a fool.

      Report Post » rangerp  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 11:51am

      Ranger

      My request that you not respond if you would continue to dodge the question was a waste.

      You said, “Show me one place in the thousands of words I printed where i use “instrumental tones” those are your words”

      This is where the lack of critical thinking skill comes into play. Pay attention, I am going to give you a confusing example. If I walk out my front door into a 12 degree temperature environment and think it is cold, the opposite fact is I do not believe it is hot, whether is say it or not. It’s a given.

      You said “… When I say music, I am talking the parts or that which makes music to be music…Does getting rid of the words make something better?…Drugs, sex, and rock and roll. lyrics or no lyrics, we lump them together for a reason…am not quite sure I can follow speck on his wordless music stuff”

      I don’t expect you to be able to follow it because you still don’t even know the topic you’re discussing. If you do not think the words of a song is what makes it sinful or praiseworthy, then the given is you believe that the only other culprit left, music with no words, lyric less as I called it, it the deciding factor. That is how you got the opinion of “There can be no Christian rock,” an opinion not founded in the Bible.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • SpeckChaser
      Posted on October 1, 2011 at 11:59am

      Continued…

      You said again “Drugs, sex, and Rock and Roll ( all three are tied to rebellion),” which lets me know you still do not even know what our discussion is about. A valid point would have sounded like “Drugs, sex, and Christian Rock and Roll(all three tied to rebellion). Why haven’t you validated your argument with a claim like that?

      You also said, “I have never known of a lost person to get saved by listening to “rock”

      You statement once again is irrelevant to the point your trying to make and doesn’t pertain to are argument. A valid statement would look like this, “I have never known of a lost person to get saved by listening to CHRISTIAN rock”

      I have already told you about my best friend accepting Christ at a Supertones concert, and my Uncle for that matter. I guess the things I have seen with my own eyes don’t qualify to your standards.

      I will foolishly be waiting for your next irrelevant post that won’t make a point covering our topic. One more time, this is what a valid point from your argument would look like, say something like “sex, drugs, and Christian rock are of the devil,” then back it up Biblically.

      Report Post » SpeckChaser  
    • Okie from Muskogee
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 12:02am

      @Speck

      You have to look at it thru knowledge and love, not just knowledge. 

      Rock-Roll was a rebellion led movement. There is too much info to say it wasn’t. I think you will agree with that. Understanding where Rock n Roll came from is knowledge. 

      Being believers, we know this rebellion or pagan worship was just a waste of time as we know there is one God, one Lord. Same principle with sacrificed meat to the pagan God. Paul knew it was just meat that some fool believed he sacrificed for an idol, a god that doesn’t exist. 

      Knowing this, as knowledgable believers, we could take the old rugged cross and play it to rock and use it for God. All things are for God, even Pagan sacrificed meat, but by bringing in these pagan cultures into the Church we lack love for the least knowledgeable among us which could lead them to going astray and following all rock music. If this occurrs, the knowledgeable are sinning against Christ for not loving the least knowledgeable. 

      1 Corinthians Chapter 8

      It goes back to the point issued at the begginning, intention. Rock is not the sin. Mimicking the rebellion associated with rock and not protecting those who don’t understand this knowledge is. Hope this make sense. Hope your weekend is good. 

      Report Post » Okie from Muskogee  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 9:00am

      Yo: RangerPrettyboy, Speckonthewall and Okiethehokie:

      From: 4sale2nobobywantsit:
      Many years ago and since I thought often to journal my life… didn’t because of time. Probably should, because often people say you can’t prove God. I would like to pull out my journal and say here; read this. God says that he will make or path straight and direct our steps. I do the maintenance of the church building where I attend. Yo Pretty Boy; you would like the service. Good bible preaching and hymns occupanied by an organ. Not quite the way I would like it, but it is where God would have me.

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 9:37am

      Continued:
      Sorry, computer acting funny… DO NOT appreciate it’s humor.
      Been doing this work on Saturdays for 2 years. This Saturday a man comes in that has never come in on this day. The deal is he is an elder of the church and the music director…coincidence – don’t believe in it. Asked him about music. He stated that the purpose of it during CORPORATE worship (church services) is to glorify God. I think we would ALL agree on this. He made the comment of …“what do you think would happen if we used heavy metal”. I am sure there would be a line waiting to speak with the pastor after the service. and I would agree that to an extent it would be justified. Our congregation is convervative in nature and would not work with this particular group of people. He said that the elders and pastor discern that it is by God that this is to be the STYLE of the service at OUR church, and went on to say that at another church it would be perfectly fine, just not there! He also he likes ALL styles of music and what he listens to outside of the service is different than during, for the simple reason of purpose. Ranger… we get it!!!!! you hate rock. FINE, God works differently with us. You want to stifle the spirit in working differently with others. You like vanilla and I like choclate. We haven’t even mentioned rap or hip-hop… no you can’t court martial me..ha ha!

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on October 2, 2011 at 12:27pm

      cont:
      Randerp…based on your thought, we can not listen to or play ANY music because it has ALL been corrupted by men of each generation of the style of that generation. This might be the thinking of hard-line muslims as in stricking to the koran ban all music (correct me if I am wrong). I think we would agree that islam is an evil religion. Music is created BY GOD given to men. The devil hates it for this reason and influences His creation (people) to use it against Him. Sex is good, used wickedly. Drugs are good, used wickedly. Rock is good used wickedly.

      “Lyric less” music… fellows it is called instrumental music. There is no place that I am aware of that it is called sinful. David plays the harp to Saul and Saul is soothed by the PLAYING of the music. NO singing is mentioned as I recall. I think some of your own postings talk about the SPIRIT that some of the musicians would tap into for their music. I was aware of this. Which means that the opposite is true… “you are either for me or against me”.
      Concerning Okie’s statements on 1 Cor 8 …..we must be careful of the weaker brother…for sure… good leadership assures this, and speaks to the issue (baby and the bath water comes to mind). Youth are not connecting to the church because we do not us the medium that communicates to them because the devil has hijacked it, and we are like deer in the headlights. Most of rap is uncool, but there is much good Godly rap. READ 1Cor.6:12-20.. will wait …

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  • Aerocog
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:40am

    Protestant are probably doing this because they’re trying to change a behavior without giving an explanation. They put out, “Don’t do, don’t do, God says so.” without giving reasoning on why God doesn’t like it.

    Report Post »  
    • Fly Old Glory 24/7 365
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:50pm

      I’m just glad I am not a teenage boy today cause I would be in serious trouble. I attend a great church but I shake my head every time I go because of how the young ladies dress and to a certain extent, the older crowd. No modesty whatsoever…

      Report Post »  
    • justin.blake
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:01pm

      Ok…heres an honest opinion from a Christian who came close to making the mistake of engaging in pre-marital sex. Too many parents are afraid to talk about sex as a good thing, just something that has boundaries and limits that God has placed. My parents barely talked about it at all, and most of it was “don’t do it!”. We have tried very hard to teach our kids that sex is not only ok, but that its great! The only caveat is that it is something which God has placed a boundary on – Bringing life into the world is a sacred and heavy responsibility, not to be taken lightly. So far, so good. Just my humble opinion. Pastors and other religious figures should strive to share the message that the act itself is not forbidden, just the timing! Have yet to see that…..

      Report Post » justin.blake  
    • americanfirst
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:08pm

      Mormons are very good in this area.
      Meaning – being able to make a compelling case to prepare the youth to deal with sexuality the way it is intended to be.
      And it permeates the culture – case in point: BYU‘s Honor Code that among other things sets a standard for moral behavior that is a choice but NOT left unsaid and still compelling enough that it actually yields it’s intended results. Sex outside of the bonds of matrimony before and after marriage is largely mitigated inside of the Mormon subculture. Meaning chastity before marriage and fidelity after marriage is effectively instilled as the standard – but still an individual choice people have to arrive at themselves. So the balance is that it is very deliberately taught and articulated but tempered w/ personal agency in the end.

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  • Jethro212
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:30am

    They are human that is why, and that is the point of Christ, we are all sinners. Just cause I follow Christ doesn’t mean I am perfect, that is stupid to remotely believe that, however, I must STRIVE to win the race that is impossible to win.

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    • Ruler4You
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:45am

      First of all “almost” is without a doubt subjective criteria to say the least. Secondly, who decides what “almost” means? Third, as if the Godless haven’t a clue, this “IS” a world of ‘humans’. Hence the need for Jesus Christ. Fourth, being ignorant or acting like it, even from the left, is ridiculous. Fifth, sexual behavior is THE most base of animal instincts. Its urges are THE most difficult (for most) to conquer.

      On the other hand, lefties seem to have conquered stupidity with undeniable ease.

      Report Post » Ruler4You  
    • JGraham III
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:46am

      Just because a person professes Christianity doesn’t mean they follow what the Word says. My concern isn’t so much for those who have never heard or been taught what the Word says about sex before marriage because they are simply “doing what comes naturally”. It is the ones who know and have been taught but do it anyway that concern me. My daughters have told me plenty of stories about kids in the local youth groups that are doing drugs and doing each other with little or no remorse shown for what they do. That is rebellion and hypocrisy and is the reason why many young people decide to forego church all together. I wonder what the youth pastors are teaching or are they more interested in “numbers” than truth? All I can do is pray for my own kids and teach them well and try to influence others in my own church.

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    • Fuul Aluuf
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 6:27pm

      Why strive at all? Once I am saved I can do whatever I want with only earthly consequences, right?

      Report Post »  
  • Scottscobig
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:26am

    Like so many things, from the gay issue to the schools, it goes back to the old Folgers commercial, “What it’s all about is helping little people become big people.”

    And the best environ for that is an intact, two-parent, faithful, heterosexual, married family. And the very good reason God has warned against premarital sex is that it creates bad physical habits. Anyone married for more than a couple of months is painfully aware of the relative scarcity of sex in a normal marital relationship. It is nothing like the crap Satan sells us in the various media. The more you try to imitate that in your youth, the more physically out of sorts you’ll feel as a spouse. Marriage is child-centered and relationship-centered. It’s a crucible for character, maturity and eternal progression; the ultimate experience that prepares you to meet God. It’s great and terrible. And if you’ve ill-prepared your mind and body for it in your early life by doing things you know you shouldn’t do, your mind and body will protest, once those activities diminish and you try to settle into the kind of sexual relationship God intended. Sex is nice, and it gets better after years of marriage. But life doesn’t revolve around sex, as Satan continually tries to convince us it does. God’s purpose in commanding against premarital sex is what it always is- our happiness. And, as always, the choice is ours; the Lord employs no coercion. The choice is between a cheap thrill and true joy. Cho

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    • stoptheliesbho
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:39am

      FANTASTIC answer. I really love this answer.

      Report Post » stoptheliesbho  
    • Jack of Hearts
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:35am

      “Anyone married for more than a couple of months is painfully aware of the relative scarcity of sex in a normal marital relationship”. That is so sad, but your wife said you’d say that.

      Report Post » Jack of Hearts  
    • signal_lost
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:39am

      I think that part of the problem, thought, is that it’s not just being there that is the benefit, it’s what you do to teach your child. Many Christians have bought in to the ‘you just have to be there’ idea while the left teaches your children. Many parents feel that they can‘t just go around forcing their children to believe like they do so they do nothing but hope that they’ll follow the parents example. I’m not shocked by a report like this because I have a senior girl who is uncomfortable in a group of other teens… at church. It makes me wonder about my friends, ‘do you know how your child really talks when you’re not around?‘ ’Wouldn‘t you have a problem if you knew how they really talk and that they’re hiding it from you?‘ ’How can you not at least suspect the path they’re on?’

      The answer to this isn‘t another program at church where you don’t have to do anything. The answer is each parent taking their kid to Starbucks starting when they’re 10 and telling them everything they know about relationships. I haven‘t talked to very many Christian parents yet who didn’t say that they would rather their child not have a girlfriend or boyfriend but… So they just let it go and watch the destruction. I shake my head and think they should have started teaching long ago and not wait until now. But if now is all we have then lets get rolling. Tell them why, tell them the benefits/consequences of whatever their actions are. They will be more li

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    • katiefrankie
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:18pm

      Amen, amen, and amen! I grew up in a religious home believing that sex was meant for marriage, and when I joined the LDS Church, I learned more about the why behind it, and my belief that sex was divinely good but also divinely appointed to be used only within the bounds of marriage only increased. Tell me what not to do and I will listen, but tell me WHY and I will understand and live it.

      Report Post » katiefrankie  
    • SnakeDoctor24
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 3:20pm

      >> And the very good reason God has warned against premarital sex is that it creates bad physical habits. Anyone married for more than a couple of months is painfully aware of the relative scarcity of sex in a normal marital relationship.

      Heh. So … God forbade out-of-wedlock sex because in-wedlock sex would be too infrequent and disappointing to satiate people that had experienced sex before marriage? That is truly a bizarre theory.

      I‘m sorry you’re not getting enough from the wife … but your experience with marriage differs greatly from mine (I’ve been married almost a decade. Far mor than “a couple of months”). Sitcom cliches aside — statistically, married couples have sex more often, and are more satisfied, than unmarried couples (anecdotally, the statistics don’t tell you the half of it).

      That God was trying to soften the blow of a sexless marriage is just silly.

      >> Marriage is child-centered and relationship-centered. [...] It’s great and terrible. [...] once those activities diminish and you try to settle into the kind of sexual relationship God intended.

      Your view of sex inmarriage seems a bit skewed. How do you know a “diminished” sexual relationship between a husband and wife is as “God intended”? I’ve not seen any “diminished” sexual relationship in nearly ten years, after two kids (one more on the way). I’m not going to be so crass as to include estimates of weekly encounters.

      Maybe God intended more than you think.

      Report Post » SnakeDoctor24  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 3:08am

      Yo katie:
      Very good… God bless… teenagers don’t like being talked at, and they do want to know the reasons behind the rules… rightfully so. The reasons actually show God’s concern and love on our behalf, and when properly explained make simple to understand sence.

      Report Post »  
  • santramir
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:11am

    there is a lot of misunderstanding about sex eevn in the most advanced societies. sex is natural, sex is fun as gay george michael once said. it is true like it or not. but higher education also is natural and fun. animal sex desire in the human kind has brought undesired consequiences. 7 billion people is a lot individuals to maintain fed and happy. abortion in the usa has been a fast easy and cheap temporary solution to animal sex apparently without any undesired consequences. really?? look, the most precious assest an individual can have is self confidence, and after one two, three five ten abortions that self confidence becomes so downgraded the individual becomes a sub-human a living organism without freewill or even some will. but that is something you can set aside right? what you can’t set aside is the risk to deposit your second most precious aasets you have, that is your trust on someone else that behaves like animal who by the way claims to himself having the truth and the light and the life in his hands.

    Report Post » santramir  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:33am

      I don‘t know how a person can become a teacher when they themselves don’t have the conviction. It is good that a person wants to teach the Word of God, and it is true that they may fall to a greater temptation.. but they also are held to a higher degree of accountability to YWVH. But all of us are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.. When we sin, we are supposed to repent..turn away from, ask forgiveness and not do it again. That is why YWVH created marriage..to keep us from sinning. Of course if we had been brought up correctly, we would never have sex before marriage. I think that is where the tradgedy befalls us. Our “demoralizing ”culture dictated that anything goes. It does not go with YWVH.

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:49am

      Your comment is kind of… all over the place. You go from talking about sex being fun, to higher education being fun, to animal desire sex (what the heck is that supposed to be?) to feeding the entire world, to self-respect being the most important thing.

      1. Higher education and learning can be fun.
      2. Someone with a college degree has a VERY low chance of ever having more than a couple of abortions… simply because people with better education use birth control if they’re having sex more often than the uneducated. So, not sure where you’re getting “5 10 abortions” from.
      3. In the US relatively few abortions are done because the mother can’t afford to feed the child. Especially with all the government assistance provided.
      4. The only thing I can think you mean by “animal desire sex” is “sex without using birth control.” Again, not very likely to happen when paired with education. If you actually mean “sex just for fun,” the answer remains the same: there isn’t much of a drawback when done safely (at least, not in the form of pregnancy, which you talk about).

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  • Jarhead4Jesus
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:06am

    While I agree with many of the posts here about our fallen nature etc. the simple fact is that not all who profess to be believers actually are. I can claim to be a jelly doughnut – that does not make me one. Believers will have evidence in their lives to back up their claim – they will not be perfect, but they will have fruit. Additionally, lost in these statistics is the question “did you have sex before or after you were saved?”

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    • TomFerrari
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:14am

      Good points!

      I’d like to add, temptation is ever-present. TV does not discriminate between evangelical or Christian or “Christian” or heathen or heretic or humanist or atheist.

      “All have sinned and fall short…” (Not an excuse, but an acknowledgement of our imperfection.)
      .

      Report Post » TomFerrari  
    • GENEPAGLIARI
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:16am

      And that’s the truth. You cut right to the fact of the matter.

      Report Post »  
    • Lonescrapper
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:16am

      “…the study’s primary report did not explore religion, some additional analysis focusing on sexual activity and religious identification yielded this result”

      It doesn‘t indicate how that ’additional’ analysis was gathered or how religious identity was assigned. “Analysis” indicates that this was the researchers conclusions. This makes it completely speculative, because the study did not even address this issue of the ‘additional’ analysis. The assignment of religious identity could have been, and was likely to have been, assigned by the people performing the study and not the people IN the study.

      Report Post » Lonescrapper  
    • Theswerd
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:34am

      “I can claim to be a jelly doughnut – that does not make me one.” Ooooh boy… that just made my morning, thank you Jarhead4Jesus. “Additionally, lost in these statistics is the question “did you have sex before or after you were saved?”” I was thinking the exact same thing. Now, granted, I was a believer when I screwed (ahem) up on this, but I was knowingly trying to give God the finger, so to speak. I was angry for how I perceived He was being unfair, so I was going to do *my* desires, and deliberately ignore His. So, really… we need to find a way to differentiate if they are going against they belief structure *at the time,* like I was, or if they were believers yet, or if they have a different understanding of the faith then is typical.

      Report Post » Theswerd  
    • Tim Law
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:49am

      I agree they never ask the right questions, so they never get the true date to make an informed conclusion. If you notice they keep coming up with new stat‘s all the time to show how immoral or how we’re losing our faith. I believe it is the work of satan in the world today trying to shake the faith of Christians. We must maintain our armor and pray. The father of lie‘s has no power over GOD’S children. His only weapon is a lie, if we guard against it and maintain our Faith in JESUS, we serve GOD. Do not listen to the lie’s of this world, stay focused on the Truth of Heaven.

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    • Nlitend1
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:29pm

      It seems to me that being a christian involves a lot of time and effort…it can take many many years to get acquainted with the scriptures and hone your belief. This study looks at younger christians and points out that they are sexually active. While I imagine the intention of this study was to criticize christianity and find this glaring contradiction between what they claim to believe and their actual lifestyles, I personally don’t think this goal was achieved. First, they looked at young evangelical christians, which tend to be the most repressed as well as having the least wealth and education. These factors contribute to the correlative relationship between religion and sexual activity. Since I didn’t see the raw data or read the analysis, I cannot tell whether they controlled for these effects. Second, they don’t look at anything other than sex…for instance, I would wager that young evangelicals use drugs less, are relatively more obedient, and commit fewer juvenile crimes. Third, it’s not like sex is the truly evil thing (even outside of marriage) but the study skews our impression of this group by limiting it to this simple data point. I would much rather see abortion statistics between the groups or grade point averages as a measure than merely assume that sexual activity makes a christian an unrepentant sinner.
      Nevertheless, this should be a little wake up call to christians hiding their kids from all knowledge of sex. They’re gonna learn it somewhere.

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    • 4kidsandacat
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:09pm

      Being saved is an ongoing process, it isn’t a one-time event. It is the human condition to be tempted and to sin. the question is do you remain in the sin or do you pick yourself up repent and get back on the road? This whole idea of “before or after you were saved” is lost on me but then again I am a Roman Catholic and half of you think I’m going to hell anyway. How many times did Jesus have to rebuke His disciples for saying or doing something stupid? And yet even after Judas betrayed Him he was still capable of being redeemed but he refused it.

      Report Post » 4kidsandacat  
  • ZengaPA65
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:05am

    So what’s new?

    Report Post » ZengaPA65  
  • Lonescrapper
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:05am

    They don’t even ask about their religion but they make a conclusion about religious young adults having “more” sex than non religious young adults. This is a bogus study, a bogus conclusion and because it goes so far against common sense, I don’t believe it one bit.

    Report Post » Lonescrapper  
  • grudgywoof
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:04am

    Why do you non-Christian folks assume we are less vonerable to committing sin? The world thinks we are supposed to be perfect and are constantly surprised when we fail. The difference between us and the world is the fact that we believe and accept that Jesus Christ is the son of God and we “try” to follow His example. We try and fail and try again and again……..it’s like climbing a mountain that has no top. But we try and try and practice and practice and through pray and supplication (studying scripture) we become better but never perfect. I guess that’s why the world hates us…..because we try. I’ll keep trying. Crazy me.

    Report Post » grudgywoof  
    • Opino1984
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:14am

      The problem comes when politically motivated Christians try to use the apparatus of the government to impose the very morality they fail to uphold in themselves on the rest of us. Yes, humans are flawed and always will be, but do we really want to get our moral instruction and directives from our government?

      Our government is the least moral institution on this planet, and yet we somehow expect that if they legislate morality, our nation will all of a sudden shine with the light of Christ simply by legislative compulsion? If you legislate morality, you take away free will and agency, and you leave the individual no choice in the matter whether they will follow “Christian” law or not. Can you truly call someone forced by law to be “moral” (as defined by law) sincere in their morality?

      Morality comes from within and through one’s respect for their religious precepts – NOT from a group of largely immoral legislators making us “moral” under penalty of law.

      Report Post » Opino1984  
    • joe1234
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:49am

      every law is an expression of morality of one sort or another. so should we get rid of laws against rape and murder since we can’t legislate morality?

      Report Post » joe1234  
    • jay1975
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:16am

      joe1234, rape and murder are acts of hurting others and taking away their liberties. That has nothing to do with morals, it has to do with the rights of others and the norms of a lawful society.

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  • Katydidnt
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:03am

    What I told a young friend of mine, (a guy) who was really struggling with waiting for marriage is that how you treat a woman is a reflection of your respect for her heavenly father. Back in the early days of man, if a woman’s father was rich you took her as a wife and afforded her and her children full legal protection. If her father was a poorer man, you would take her as a concubine, you take care of her and her children’s physical needs but they had no right or inheritance of yours. If she had no father or was destitute, she would make a living as a prostitute. Your responsiblity toward her went no further than payment.
    God is this woman’s father. She was made in His image and likeness. He loves her with complete self-sacrifice holding back not even His only Son for her. If you have sex with her without marriage you are treating her like a concubine, if you later leave her, you are treating her like a prostitute. If you have respect for God her father, you will love her as He does in a spirit of self-sacrifice and unconditional love. He really took it to heart.

    The world today with sex with benefits, treats the human body as a public toilet. People look for love everywhere but at the Source. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Our bodies are supposed to reflect the love of God to the world. Jesus was the human face of God, and the Divine Face of man.

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:12am

      “God is this woman’s father. She was made in His image and likeness. He loves her with complete self-sacrifice holding back not even His only Son for her. If you have sex with her without marriage you are treating her like a concubine, if you later leave her, you are treating her like a prostitute. If you have respect for God her father, you will love her as He does in a spirit of self-sacrifice and unconditional love. He really took it to heart.”

      While the history lesson is good, it’s also coming off as a big regressive. Sure, thousands of years ago people would take concubines (or in the Old Testament, take multiple wives). Nowadays that‘s not the case and it seems like you’re not giving the woman in this equation any power or reasoning ability. Thinking of a women purely in regards to her father in this day and age is entirely ignoring the person herself. It‘s not just the man’s choice to have sex (obviously, excluding rape).

      Still, glad it seemed to turn out ok for your friend.

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    • DLG123
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:16am

      Very well said!
      DLG

      Report Post » DLG123  
    • Katydidnt
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:24am

      I was speaking to a guy, to woman I might have said something different. The terms may have changed but living together is a lot like being a concubine. Sleeping with a guy because he takes you out to dinner isn’t that far from what the old-time prostitute might do.
      By the way, I know how hard it is. I walked it. I had sex once when I was sixteen and then did not again until I married at age 32 to a doctor who also had waited. I was in a lot of serious relationships and it was hard. There were times I just had to break up with people I really cared about because for me, I had to keep God first in my life. If I did not love God more than myself and the person I was with, I would truly be without the one true love of my life. To me having sex before marriage was turning my back on Him, and I could not do that. I shed buckets of tears in the process but I did it.

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    • DLG123
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:35am

      I think a major problem is the doctrine of once saved always saved. This docrine is one that deceives the person into the false belief that once a person says the “sinnners prayer” (which happens to NOT be in the Bible for you solo scriptura people out there) they are saved and there is nothing more that one needs to do (one should probable re-read James 2:14-26) Go and sin away because you are saved and there is NOTHING you can do to lose that salvation.
      Paul worked out his salvation in “Fear and trembling” and I am sure he was “saved”.
      DLG

      Report Post » DLG123  
    • Katydidnt
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:32pm

      I agree with you on that once saved always saved thing. I am going to go one step further. In the parable of the sower and the seed, the seed falls on the footpath, the rocky soil, among the thorns and on good soil. It is easy to say, well this is this person or that is that person, but the soil is our souls. If we let them be constantly exposed to the world, we will become hardened the word will just bounce off of us. If we do not prepare our souls for God by repenting of our sins and forgiving others our joy will quickly fade because we are not serious. The thorns are hard, because we are surrounded by earthly cares and concerns but unless we truly push into a trust relationship with God in these issues we will never bear fruit. The word of God goes forth everyday, if we want to have it bear fruit in our lives we need to tend to the garden of our souls.

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    • Sebastian Xavier
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 5:06pm

      What a sexist comment. I‘m sure you’re a great person and your advice might have worked for your friends, but in posting it here you‘re strongly implying that women don’t use men for sex and then move on too. (they do, but they hide behind other reasons) I’m not sure what my point is; it just rubbed me the wrong way. As if the arguments should be tailored towards men to “not abuse women” and towards women to “not allow themselves to be abused”. This ignores reality and somehow makes women out to be special prizes. Also the whole thing about concubines and girls’ fathers. This is pretty culture-specific. Different cultures around the world have had different marriage customs.

      People have sex because it is fun, and they act like the world because they live in the world. But I’m glad you were able to control your urges and end up better for it.

      Report Post »  
  • Locked
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:03am

    I’m curious what the difference would be for Catholics compared to Evangelicals. The image of the “Catholic schoolgirl” comes to mind, both as a symbol of conservative morals and as the “forbidden fruit” that the unscrupulous want to grab. With the priesthood’s devotion to abstinence, I wonder if the result is having a more abstaining attitude among their flock?

    Report Post »  
    • Katydidnt
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:59am

      I am a Catholic. I think regular confession definately helps. One asking God for forgiveness and asking Him for the grace to sin no more is spiritually strengthening. But from a human perspective, not wanting to go and have to tell that you sinned offers some incentive not to.
      The priest can also ask you to make changes. One man told me of going to confession for sex outside of marriage, and the priest asked him after giving him absolution, when are you going to move out.
      Repentence is not just saying you are sorry. Repent means to turn away from and you need to resolve to change your life. A good friend of my husband had been dating this girl for 8 years. After going to confession for the first time in many years, he quit having sex with her, finalized his divorce, got the marriage annuled and then married her.
      The Bible calls us to confess our sins to one another. You can be truly repentant on your own, but confession adds a level of grace and accountability.

      Report Post »  
  • Liberty7
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:59am

    Why? Because we are all human beings and hormones are the most powerful chemical in the human body. In fact, they are the only chemicals that are secreted from one organ to act on another organ. It’s life. And it is practically impossible for human’s to consciously suppress the effects of these sexual hormones. Heck, look at the Catholic Church as just one example of the failure of sexual suppression and how disastrous their policy of celibacy has been on priests, nuns and the church as an institution. Need I say anything else? Ya, I know, there are plenty here who will say yes, something else can be said, but will it change anything? I doubt it.

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:06am

      Eh, that’s a stretch. No matter how horny people get they usually don’t look to children to act out their passions; there’s a big difference between wanting to get off and being a paedophile.. I feel the greater issue is that due to the strict rules, the priesthood finds it hard to recruit new members, leading to a limited pool of candidates. I also would imagine that a great number of the perverts in the priesthood turned toward religion in the first place to calm their cravings, hoping God would provide an answer. Thus the issue is not that the priesthood turns good men bad, but it more often attracts bad men trying to be good who then fail (to horrible ends).

      Report Post »  
    • DLG123
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:09am

      Wrong it is the false unbiblical doctrine of OSAS.

      Report Post » DLG123  
  • tbeachhead
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:57am

    The stakes are higher when the knowledge is there…When adults all around are countering the truth with, “They’re going to be doing it anyway…”, kids are too credulous to know any better. If you send me a message, “You’re going to fail,” you have decreased my chances of success. If you put that message on a loop, I need God to succeed. Evangelical kids need God, and not their parent’s god, to survive. God does not have grandchildren, the inheritance goes to His children…

    Report Post » tbeachhead  
  • JustJerry
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:56am

    The answer to the story heading…

    Cause it feels good…nuff said.

    Report Post » JustJerry  
  • china clipper
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:54am

    For the past 50 years, the mass media has pushed decadence and immorality as the respectable norm. Just having anything to do with contemporary culture makes people decadent morons. The churches don’t seem to see anything wrong with this or are in a state of total denial. I was talking to a Methodist preacher about the lyrics to pop music , and he said kids just listen to it for “the beat.” Fool! – Most preacher are stupid idiots.Instead of throwing money away in a collection plate, I support clean media and clean DVDs.

    Report Post »  
  • TheBloodOfTyrants
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:50am

    Go Christians! Break all the rules whenever you want, cause you can just pray for forgiveness, right?! I’ve actually had a “Christian” defend his actions in Vegas (gambling, picking up hookers, drinking) with that.
    “What religion are you, sir?”
    “Oh, me?! I’m a hypocrite!”

    :)

    Report Post » TheBloodOfTyrants  
    • John 3:16
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:09am

      Other than GOD the rest of my critics are hypocrites, all of them!!! We are all sinners so let’s give our rocks back to he who would have us stone our own brother.

      Report Post » John 3:16  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:38pm

      Yo John 3:16…
      Do you negate the verses in the bible that tell us (or call us) to correct even REBUKE a fellow saint.
      “ As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another”
      In all LOVE get with the WHOLE council of God.
      Throwing stones has to do with condemnation… not putting on the correct path!
      Keep studying…. blessings

      Report Post »  
  • skipmontesjr
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:43am

    We are all human regardless of religion…. We are also all born sinners…It is up to the individual to decide under grace what is right and what is wrong..At the end of the day it is not for us to judge one another but to be judged by our creator….

    Report Post » skipmontesjr  
    • rdietz7
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:56am

      You are a dip. You subscribe to the water downed version of the bible that was deranged by 19th century pragmatists. What? A parent, can/t judge their kid? A counselor, their defendant?

      If you don’t make judgements, especially about these issues, you will have a situation.

      Report Post » rdietz7  
    • Dudley Do-Right
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:42am

      Can’t you get your point across without the insulting name calling? His last sentence implies to me anyway, he’s talking about adults who make choices between right and wrong.

      I can understand people who respond by name calling after they themselves have been insulted, I’ve done it myself a few times. I‘m not saying that’s right either, but to call someone a dip because they express a belief out here is unnecessary, hurtful and downright mean, IMO.

      Now call me a dip too if it makes you feel better!

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    • Rational Man
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:49am

      “It is up to the individual to decide under grace what is right and what is wrong..”

      WRONG!!
      God teaches us what is right and wrong. It is up to us whether except and strive to live by it or not.
      That is the problem. People deciding whats right and wrong and, “….doing whats right in their own eyes…..”
      Either you agree with God or you don’t!!
      That being ‘corrected’, temptation in the world has never been more overwhelming, in these “last days”. It’s everywhere one looks. Just look at what schools are teaching kids today!! I‘m a 56yr old man and I watch TV with the remote in hand to change channels just so I don’t have to watch the filth on commercials. I know families who never, ever watch TV anymore. The fight against temptation has never been harder. There was a time in America that people were not ostrasized by EVERONE for being pure in heart. For trying to do the right thing. Now your a “hater”, “racist” and any number of other slurs against Christians. Where is the respect and tolerance for them that the non-Christians demand for themselves?
      The worse part is the apostate churches that literally lead people astray or are so “luke warm” that they are more like a cheesy social clubs than a church.
      It takes more strength and encouragment to be a committed Christian today, in America, than it was in the past. Heck, even more than yesterday!

      Report Post » Rational Man  
    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 3:14am

      Yo Dudley;
      Your a diptoo……… see there ya go ,now I have to go repent cause I don’t feel better. Last time I listen to you!

      Report Post »  
  • Miyegombo Bayartsogt
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:35am

    Is there any doubt? Look at the behavior of prominent pastors and preachers and you get a panoply of perversion and pregnancy. Every guy knows the best place to hook up with randy women has historically has been the church. I mean no disrespect, but Christians are human too. As such they are given to giving in to temptations even while pretending to do otherwise. Many famous holy people, Jesse Jackson just being one, seem to take up the calling of Christ to use as a tool for the conquest of Christian pulchritude. This is a good thing, a healthy thing, and it is a thing we shouldn’t deny.

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    • joe1234
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:41am

      how come I never met any of those randy women in church??? sigh….

      Report Post » joe1234  
  • GENEPAGLIARI
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:34am

    We are only sinners saved by grace. Paul said that even he continued to struggle with controlling his body with his mind and totally bemoaned the fact he did things he knew were wrong. People today are no different, we just have more to struggle against. None of us are perfect and never will be perfect. There was only ONE with that distinction. J E S U S C H R I S T.

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  • jedi.kep
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:33am

    Because the church is too worried about offending people. If the churches would preach the truth concerning holy living then you would have less. BUT youth group is all about having fun. Church is all about getting your Cafe mocha fix for the morning, and person after person is left without the tools they need to stand strong against temptation. No Word, No Faith. Pretty simple.

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    • GENEPAGLIARI
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:37am

      All churches are not the same. Great props to my Pastor Del Way for standing strong in the face of increasing “feel good” church teaching in other arenas. You can hear what you want and can run from the truth, but it is still the truth.

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    • underdogMary
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:47am

      Thank you, Jedi.Kep, you are absolutely right …

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    • Jim & Donna
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:12am

      I agree with Jedi. Churches/Pastors/Christians seem too worried about offending people to speak the truth. It isn’t judging to point out what Christ said on any subject. Sometimes Christ’s words are offensive. Speak the whole truth in love and see what happens. You are only responsible for doing that part. Christ is responsible for the rest.

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  • TRONINTHEMORNING
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:32am

    Fallen human nature; and Satan doesn’t hang at the bars as much as he does where Bible-believing Christ followers can be found. That’s his hunting ground. So, all the more temptation for those who know Christ, rather than not. Thank God for our great advocate, Jesus Christ!

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  • DTOM_Jericho (Creator vindicator)
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:29am

    What is “pre-marital” sex? Considering xians are using Scripture as a guide; a man with a license from the state is not what dictates marriage. Some “holy man” saying magical words does not keep you “pure”. In Scripture, sex IS marriage, a blood covenant. Maybe marriage is waiting until you can change your tax filing status and get a deduction?

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  • Steelhead
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:27am

    Paris Palin , no one want to get in a situation w/ a young mom like you ,too much baggage. Go take care of your kid and stay out of the bars,

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  • SpankDaMonkey
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:25am

    .
    I’m just guessing but, they might be horny…….Remember kids to WTR (wrapthatrascal)

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  • SamIamTwo
    Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:25am

    Human nature…

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    • Zorro6821
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:43am

      I am getting so pissed at this “ Evangelicals” phrase. I am a Christian, not an Angel, I am not“ Born Again” as I was already born once and therefore “Born Again” is redundant and nuts. This is the kind of crap I am hearing in politics and news. The Evangelical Vote, The Born Agains….the funny thing is I never hear the phrase “The Christian Vote”. I see this on Fox and other lame stream media. What is up with that? If I hear Evangelicals or Born Again, I’ll throw up. I quess this is the new political correct terminology. What happened to just plain Christian, born once without wings.

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    • usmc85
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:53am

      @Zorro,
      Christ says that you must be “born again of water and spirit”. You can not be a disciple of Christ’s (a Christian) without being born again.

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 9:59am

      @Zorro

      Evangelical and Born Again are terminology from conservative Protestant sects, notably of the Baptist and Southern Baptist persuasion. One of the big divides between Protestantism and Catholicism for example is the time of Baptism. Protestants believe that Baptism needs to be a conscious choice, that you need to understand what a life with Chris means. By being baptized, they are “Born Again,” this time with their life devoted to Christ. Whereas for Catholics, Baptism symbols acceptance of a life in the church and forgiveness for Original Sin; as you said, you’re already born, so this is just purifying you.

      On a side note, when asked the question “What religion are you?” I’ve never heard a Catholic say “Christian” unless surrounded by Protestants. And I’ve never heard a Protestant say anything but “Christian” unless you’re specifically discussing sects. To me it seems Catholics take pride in their church and its history; I feel like Protestants saying “Born Again” is just attempting to take a similar amount of pride in sects only a couple hundred years old.

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    • Zorro6821
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:20am

      I do not hear the Phrase “Born Again” or “Evangelicals” in Jerusalem or the Middle East Countries. You Hear the word Christian as an all encompassing term. For example, The Christians in Eqypt, Iraq, Iran, Israel. I have yet to hear Born Again Jewish, or Born Again Catholic etc. The Born Again stuff is Polarizing and demeaning. When you fill out your passport or other papers they never have a Born Again or Evangelical Check off box. That phrase was manufactured by the Corporate Religion Media and it is frankly very offensive and not inclusive of All Christians.

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    • momprayn
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:34am

      ZORRO — If you weren’t aware, the “born again” stuff is from what Jesus said in John 3:3-7 : “Jesus replied, “With all the earnestness I possess I tell you this: Unless you are born again, you can never get into the Kingdom of God”….Nicodemus (then asked) “What do you mean? How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?“ Jesus replied ”What I am telling you so earnestly is this: Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Men can only reproduce human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven; so don’t be surprised at my statement that you must be born again!”

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 10:41am

      @Zorro

      Of course it’s not inclusive to all Christians; as I just said, it refers only to certain branches of Protestantism, and those sects are mostly in the US (ie, Baptists of all stripes). In the same way calling yourself a Catholic isn’t inclusive to all Christians, but only one sect. Or calling someone Sunni isn’t inclusive to all Muslims (recommendation: never do that to a Shiite Muslim).

      Christian is a very broad term encompassing anyone who claims to follow Christ. How those people choose to do so can vary wildly. Born Again Christians and Evangelicals are terms that simply narrow down where your belief structure lies; and that distinction can be extremely important to some people.

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    • Rational Man
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:12am

      @momprayn

      Thanks, Mom!
      Always go back to the Word. It ends all arguement. Whether the arguing stops or not!

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 11:22am

      @Rational (and momprayin)
      “Always go back to the Word. It ends all arguement. Whether the arguing stops or not!”

      Unfortunately it’s wrong in this case. Almost all Christian sects have Baptism; it’s one of the holiest Sacraments in Catholicism, and is indeed attributed to the verse momprayin quoted. However, you would be wrong to call a Catholic “Born Again,” because the term refers directly to a specific branch of Protestantism. Other Protestant branches (Lutheranism, Anglicanism) believe the same as the RC Church; Baptism for them is holy but it’s a completely different view than the Evangelical “Born Again.”

      The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways; using the correct terms is always necessary :-)

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    • Rational Man
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 12:21pm

      @Locked

      Just because Catholics have twisted things around to their liking, doesn’t mean the Bible is “wrong in this case”. Jesus spoke of spiritual rebirth, not the physical symbolism of baptism. Or rituals not found in the Bible. A mistake Catholics make by the very nature of their “religion”.
      And you are right about most, if not all, Catholics. They are not born again.

      As I posted before, “Whether the arguing stops or not!”
      You can argue semantics all day and it won’t change the truth of what Jesus said.
      Your just going through this thread trolling everybody anyway……………….

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:01pm

      Yo Locked:
      ONE word which does not change for ALL people of ALL time. There is ONE body of Christ and we should ALL be following the same rules, ALL the time. This discussion is evidence of part of the problem with the youth of today. The body fighting with itself (christian not being self titled)…. what a foolish cartoon of a picture…. blessings

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:17pm

      @Rational
      “doesn’t mean the Bible is “wrong in this case”.”

      I never said that; or rather it wasn’t meant to be taken that way. I said that momprayin’s take on it was. “Born Again” as a term is -completely- different than “being born again” as is stated in the Bible. “Born Again” refers to a particular belief; “being born again” (or “born from above” depending on translation) does indeed refer to spiritual rebirth. To Catholics (and other sects) it is the Sacrament of Baptism, usually as a child, to relieve Original Sin and welcome the person into the Church. To a Born Again sect, it’s a baptism to acknowledge a new life in Jesus. They have very different meanings, as you can see.

      Obviously those who are “Born Again” will insist they’re right, as will Christians who don’t believe in the same kind meaning behind baptism. But the terms are different, which is what I was stating originally.

      Fun fact: there’s debate among scholars over whether being “Born Again” is actually required, as only one Gospel even mentions it, and then only to one person, implying that he personally had to be born again (ie, believing in God and Jesus Himself) as he hadn’t accepted them yet.

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:29pm

      @4Truth2all
      “ONE word which does not change for ALL people of ALL time.”

      I‘m afraid I really don’t know what you’re saying here. Unless you’re saying the phrase “Born Again” hasn’t changed; it obviously has (or rather the thinking of what it entails being born again has changed). As said, for many Christians it simply means accepting Christ; for others it means being reborn free from sin. For others it doesn‘t actually apply as it hardly appears in the Bible and seems like an odd requirement to omit from most of the Gospels if it’s necessary for eternal life.

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    • Rational Man
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 1:37pm

      Always go back to the Word. It ends all arguement.

      Whether the arguing stops or not!

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    • Locked
      Posted on September 28, 2011 at 2:13pm

      “Always go back to the Word. It ends all arguement.”

      I’m glad you agree with me then :-)

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    • 4truth2all
      Posted on September 29, 2011 at 2:54am

      Yo Locked:
      Sorry I took so much time getting back to you.
      My point was that God’s Word does not change.
      Nothing personal, but the catholic church has some off the target beliefs.
      There are other verses that would speak to the born again principle so it does not stand alone, as we are all born dead in our sins/trespasses.
      Nicodemus thought he was good because he was a Jew. Jesus said sorry buddy but that ain’t getting it done, and told him what would. What was for him is true for ALL men. Some actually try to twist these verses and use them to preach that you must be baptized to enter the kingdom of heaven, which goes against the entire bible. Hope this makes things clearer.
      A blue sky is not green no matter how many times one says so.
      It is not who believes what, it is what the bible says.
      I don’t even like to call myself a christian anymore, because the word has been corrupted. I don’t know how many people I speak with say they are christians yet when you ask them what a christian is they have NO idea. Like Nicodemus, Americans just assume the title for themselves and think there good. Hope I have not made matters worse.

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