Technology

Wikipedia Could Soon Go Dark in Protest of House Internet Bill

The House set to vote on the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) this Thursday, a bill that depending on who you are is seen as either protecting intellectual property or censoring the Internet. The bill seeks to remove “rogue” websites hosting unauthorized copyrighted material, but in the process, as the bill is written, could take down sites like YouTube, Facebook and Twitter as collateral damage.

Wikipedia Considering Blackout in Protest to SOPA | Google Chairman Says Law Would Criminalize Internet

Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales. (Photo: Wikipedia)

Groups advocating freedom on the Internet have worked to get their message across, Google CEO Eric Schmidt has lambasted the bill, among other actions to raise awareness, but Wikipedia is stepping up with a threat of its own.

As an opponent to the bill, Wikipedia is considering blanking out all pages. This has not happened yet and a timeframe for when or if it will happen is unknown, but Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales has posed the idea to the Wikipedia community.

He wrote over the weekend:

A few months ago, the Italian Wikipedia community made a decision to blank all of Italian Wikipedia for a short period in order to protest a law which would infringe on their editorial independence. The Italian Parliament backed down immediately. As Wikipedians may or may not be aware, a much worse law going under the misleading title of ‘Stop Online Piracy Act‘ is working its way through Congress on a bit of a fast track. I may be attending a meeting at the White House on Monday (pending confirmation on a couple of fronts) along with executives from many other top Internet firms, and I thought this would be a good time to take a quick reading of the community feeling on this issue. My own view is that a community strike was very powerful and successful in Italy and could be even more powerful in this case. There are obviously many questions about whether the strike should be geotargetted (US-only), etc. (One possible view is that because the law would seriously impact the functioning of Wikipedia for everyone, a global strike of at least the English Wikipedia would put the maximum pressure on the US government.) At the same time, it’s of course a very very big deal to do something like this, it is unprecedented for English Wikipedia.

So, this is a straw poll. Please !vote either ‘support’ or ‘oppose’ with a reason, and try to keep wide-ranging discussion to the section below the poll.

To be clear, this is NOT a vote on whether or not to have a strike. This is merely a straw poll to indicate overall interest. If this poll is firmly ‘opposed’ then I’ll know that now. But even if this poll is firmly in ‘support’ we’d obviously go through a much longer process to get some kind of consensus around parameters, triggers, and timing.

Some who support this action say it would gain publicity for the cause and get their point across to lawmakers while others, even Wikipedia supporters, don’t think the content on the site should be blacked out. Here are some comments from the Wikipedia community:

  • Firmly Support SOPA and Protect IP are terrible bills that pose a real threat to Wikipedia and the overall health of the internet. This plan would draw attention to the seriousness of the issue. Kevin Renfrow (talk) 07:09, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Firmly Support SOPA is an existential threat to Wikipedia, not a political one. Would we warn people of a server outage because we can’t pay the bills, or do we not get involved in economic issues either? Libertarian23423 (talk) 07:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Weak Oppose A compromise: Add big SOPA warning headers to every article and shift the article content “below the fold” of the page. Please DO NOT block access to Wikipedia’s content. Runtime (talk) 06:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose SOPA bad. Wikipedia good. Don’t go down the political path. It is a slippery slope. Once you start it is hard to stop. What will be the next political hot topic Wikipedia steps in on? One of the five pillars of Wikipedia is to stay neutral. Be strong, stay the way you are.
  • Support. Here is what I recommend: Facebook, google, youtube and wikipedia should take down their sites and replace them with a message about SOPA all on the same day. But it shouldn’t end there. They should also personally attack each of the original progenators in the Senate/House of the bill. Their political careers need to end that day. It’s not enough to simply stop this bill. If they do, another will be enacted pretty soon with pretty much the same problems. Politicians need to understand that if they take on the internet and choose record labels over their own constituents they cannot expect support from their own political base. Karlzt (talk) 02:38, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose The issue has not been well stated, the community has not been well informed, and if I am going to pick up pitchfork and torch, I’m going to pick the issue to do it on. Sorry.–Wehwalt (talk) 08:58, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

In November the House Judiciary Committee said it would be “open to changes but only legitimate changes” for the bill that is largely supported by those in Hollywood and in the music industry. CNET reports that since then “tweaks” have been made but even still the bill remains unpopular to many groups:

“There are still significant problems with the approach,” said Public Knowledge attorney Sherwin Siy. The revised version of SOPA “continues to encourage DNS blocking and filtering, which should be concerning for internet security experts and human rights activists alike,” he said. DNS stands for the Domain Name System.

Ryan Radia, associate director of technology studies at the free-market Competitive Enterprise Institute, says SOPA v2.0 is “better than the old one, and more carefully written in several places.” But, Radia says, “it’s still a very bad bill.”

Schmidt was recently reported as saying that if the bill goes through, it would lead to “criminalizing” of the Internet. The Hill reports that Schmidt reiterating that websites, such as search engines, that link to foreign websites with pirated content would be punished unjustly:

“By criminalizing links, what these bills do is they force you to take content off the Internet,” Schmidt said, calling it a form of censorship.

[...]

“If Congress passes a bad law, we all suffer,” Schmidt said.

He compared the proposal to the Web censorship practiced by repressive foreign governments like China and doubled down on that comparison when speaking with reporters after his remarks at the Economic Club of Washington.

“It’s not a good thing. I understand the goal of what SOPA and PIPA are trying to do,” Schmidt said of the Senate counterpart bill, the Protect IP Act. “Their goal is responsible, their mechanism terrible. They should not criminalize the intermediaries. They should go after the people that are violating the law.

The bill has 25 co-sponsors from both parties and would require websites to keep tabs on their site for “pirated material” and if found the site would be subject to being taken down.

[H/T GeekOSystem]

Comments (76)

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  • RideAmerica1
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:40pm

    This should be stopped dead in its tracks. Get on the phone to your elected officials. This loss of our rights can not be allowed. I did not wear the uniform of America to see this happen. I may be old, but I remember what it was like when we had all of our freedoms. This so called “Law” is an slap in the face to all those that perished in the name of FREEDOM……

    Report Post » RideAmerica1  
    • 100 Million Patriots Standing
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 9:20pm

      Soros is a wikipedia financial supporter….so something is amiss,,,,,.

      Report Post » 100 Million Patriots Standing  
    • jt92677
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 9:43pm

      Yet another example of “big government” passing laws without concern about the consequences. In fact, they rarely even know the consequences of what they propose. This is why I’m a conservative who thinks less government is our only assurance of freedom from government.

      Report Post »  
  • schroeder123
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:39pm

    It would be wonderful if we elected people to do Nothing. We’d be better off.

    Report Post » schroeder123  
    • jackbauer
      Posted on December 14, 2011 at 12:02am

      I’ve said many times that I wish Congress would sit on their hands or go on vacation. We have enough knee jerk reaction laws already on the books!

      Report Post » jackbauer  
    • Anamah
      Posted on December 14, 2011 at 3:02am

      They could work as janitors in the Capitol and other gov. buildings to realize how to be industrious, make some money, be conscious and spiritual respectful of how life and freedom works, and learn how awful is their over regulation to America.

      Report Post »  
  • RightThinking1
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:22pm

    Frankly, I could care less. I do not trust Wikipedia at all. The sooner it is gone, the better I would say. Do your own research, do NOT rely on anything that Wikipedia has to say.

    Report Post »  
    • Raider1
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:42pm

      It’s about government squeezing your liberty to the max. They never stop until they have complete control over us.

      Report Post » Raider1  
    • Vickie Dhaene
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 8:01pm

      Well I for agrees with you. I will not use Wikipedia after reading the list of stockholder and people involved. Totally Progressive.

      Report Post »  
    • ashestoashes
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 8:12pm

      If Wikipedia goes…and youtube and facebook goes..then how many other sources of information do you think will be out there..This will potentially shut down any and all information sites except the ones who are government controlled.. a lot like Communism isn’t it…or Iran or China… one freedom at a time..

      Report Post »  
    • jt92677
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 9:45pm

      Wikipedia is an enormous resource. You don’t have to agree with every political view expressed on its pages, I don’t, but the value of Wikipedia far outweighs the occasional biased article or opinion.

      Report Post »  
    • 408 CheyTac
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 10:41pm

      And just what planet are you living on? You don’t think that same law would be used to shut down sites like GBTV, blaze, whatever they want, then you are a m0r0n. One thing that really gets old is fake conservatives that are all for a law against something they don’t like… then they get their own freedoms shut down by that same law they supported.

      Mark if a sheeple is someone who happily supports any act that may later be used against them in any way.

      Report Post »  
    • RightThinking1
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 11:39pm

      Look folks, here is the low-down on SOPA. It is straightforward, it is easy to understand. If you want to get paranoid about it fine, go ahead. The truth is, specifically by the wording, it affects no one but bad guys, most of whom are operating outside of the U.S. Stop wringing your hands like little girls and read up on the bill, rather than listening to googletards and wikiheads. Foreign sites are ripping off massive quantities of U.S. intellectual material, it is that simple:
      http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/284535/defending-sopa-lamar-smith

      Report Post »  
    • Timothy_Reid
      Posted on December 14, 2011 at 2:27pm

      @thinking …..and what specific measuable scale will be used to define these “bad guys”? It is of course exceptionally precise so as not to accidentaly include or give leeway to anyone “mistakenly” falling within the realms of “bad guy” right?

      Your blindness is preceeded only by your lack of sight……

      Report Post »  
    • PossumRoadkill
      Posted on December 15, 2011 at 2:11pm

      @RIGHTTHINKING1

      I do believe you were dropped on your head as a child.
      So what, who cares what you like and don’t like? This is bigger than one single website. This affects both sides of the aisle and even those who are in the middle. I may not like some of the people at CBS but that doesn’t keep me from watching some of their programming. You could plug Google, Wiki or any website in place of CBS and it would be the same. I don‘t want to see any of these websites go away even if I don’t use them now. There may be a time in the future that I might need them.

      Report Post » PossumRoadkill  
  • USAMEDIC3008
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:16pm

    It’s not about wikipedia
    It’s about FREEDOM

    Report Post » USAMEDIC3008  
    • jt92677
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 9:49pm

      Exactly — it‘s about big government with small minds making decisions and passing laws we don’t need.

      This is how the democrats plan to control the discussion, they want to silence talk radio, they want to control the visual media, now they want to dismantle free speech.

      Hillary is part of a group proposing international laws against statements that might be hurtful or degrading of some religion or group. Who would decide what’s hurtful? Hillary? The government is getting too big, and now it’s becoming abusive.

      Report Post »  
    • Eyes_of_Deception
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 10:43pm

      So, the majority of you are saying that the Gov’t should not be involved in online censorship? Then lets just make is ok for people to post and distribute child porn legally. We don‘t need Gov’t interference, is what you are saying. Wiki is an unreliable source, and in fact, is banned from many colleges and universities due to that reason. Youtube, FaceBook, and Twitter are a big waste of human life anyways…You may be proud your Son has the most views when the world is watching him act like a Jack Azz, or proud your daughter has the most lkes on her FaceBook, or your Child spends hours of the day tweeting…So proud of them…Down with Anarchy and up with Gov’t!

      Report Post » Eyes_of_Deception  
  • freedom_gurl35
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:14pm

    If the Internet goes down, then we’re all doomed. This is the last bastion of the true free market system – and considering governments around the world make no bones about censoring their citizens’ Internet access – China, Russia, North Korea to name a few – it’s amazing to see how little press attention this bill is getting outside the Internet itself. What Wikipedia is trying to do is amiable, but it‘s going to take a lot more than that to get Congress’ attention…especially since Hollywood and the media moguls have our representatives on speed-dial!

    Now find a way to remove Internet access from their smartphones and tablets? THAT might make them wake up.

    Report Post » freedom_gurl35  
  • newmexicopatriots
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:55pm

    Links to Stop SOPA Petitions…

    https://wfc2.wiredforchange.com/o/9042/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=8173

    http://fightforthefuture.org/pipa/

    http://www.tumblr.com/protect-the-net

    http://www.mozilla.org/sopa/

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stop_sopa/

    http://americancensorship.org/

    Report Post » newmexicopatriots  
  • ZomBrad
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:52pm

    This is the ONE topic in which people from both sides agree (by people, I mean people….not politicians or nuts)…

    Because of this fact….it’s going to pass. Our kings and masters will have ruled against we the lowly peasants.

    Report Post »  
  • newmexicopatriots
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:20pm

    junior1971…. I’m not afraid to say the words…. TERRORIST. TERROR. OBAMA. ASSASSINATION. MUSLIMS HATE AMERICA. TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT. Loss of FREEDOMS. Loss of PROPERTY. TANKS in the streets. CONTROL of the INTERNET worldwide. Hmm….. Maybe it’s time for a SECOND AMERICAN REVOLUTION?

    Report Post » newmexicopatriots  
    • Huguenot Descendant
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:38pm

      The stupid progressives on the Right are now showing their true colors. This is why it is important to understand that it’s not about the name Republican, or Democrats. It’s about the Progressives who want to expand Government. What do you think Bush was? What do you think the Republican congress and Senate were? The disease has grown and infected all of Washington which is why the Tea Party must unite.

      We have been warned about Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, and Rick Perry all of whom are progressives. So if one of them gets into office because you voted for him, don’t complain when they expand Government instead of shrink it.

      Report Post » Huguenot Descendant  
    • Chet Hempstead
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:13pm

      It’s true there were tanks in the streets! I saw them. They told me it was just for the Veterans’ Day parade, and I haven’t seen them since, but they were there.

      Report Post »  
    • HorseCrazy
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:15pm

      haha

      Report Post »  
  • Conservative for Political Dignity
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:16pm

    Come on community. We all must come together and fight every hint of our freedoms being taken away. Our massive, controlling government has proved time and time again that they are not looking out for our best interests. We cannot decide on a bill based on how it seems it will be used. We must look at the verbage of the bill and stretch it three steps beyond what is reasonable within its context… That is what they are going to use the law for.
    We must all try and stop big brother from getting their claws into anything because they have proven that they will NEVER let go. Even if you do not perceive this issue to affect you in a negative way. The precedent has already been set right under our noses – They shut down all online poker websites. Next, they shut down any website that sells “bootleg” jerseys and other items. The verbage in this bill is intentionally broad. Remember when these people called the tea party terrorists – SCARY .. Do you seriously think that in another 4 years of Obama it would be a huge stretch for them to say, “Glen Beck is garnering negative sentiments towards the government in a way that is detrimental toward the progress of our nation and world.”
    Read your history people. There is a playbook to all of this. It has happened before and it is happening again so WAKE UP!!
    People did not die for our right to download movies illegally. But they did die for our right to choose what is best for ourselves. Don’t let them down.

    Report Post »  
    • Conservative for Political Dignity
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:29pm

      A message to Wikipedia:
      Anything to raise awareness would be really great. My most sincere thank you for putting out the [! NOTION !] –> as Glen Beck would rave. I hope you get the votes and strongly consider following through. I do not know how you did it in Italian, but for America or the English speaking world please make it very clear on your pages exactly what you are doing. Either that or a bunch of Americans who aren’t paying attention will just think your website has just been down for a week.
      Nick

      Report Post »  
  • karaklev
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:14pm

    freedom of speech.. plus how will I do half of my homework assignments without you wikipedia???!!!

    Report Post » karaklev  
  • larry25427
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:13pm

    The government is here to help. Jst ask any indian.

    Report Post »  
  • tddraeger
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:07pm

    the problem with this bill, after reading a letter from congress describing the bill, is that it is vague. Anyone that shows intent to share copyrited material is at risk. Potentially this could include copyrighted pictures, music videos, etc. So it really limits what someone could even post on the web, not just stop piracy.

    Report Post »  
  • I.Gaspar
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:39pm

    NOTHING this government does is for our good. They won’t be happy until we have no personal property, no right to free speech, no ability to travel, and no jobs other than working in the government collectives.
    Hope and change.

    Report Post »  
  • smackdown33
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:29pm

    It’s all about controlling the internet, controlling the message. The government will creep step by step to complete its goal. The internet permits too much truth to be in the minds of ordinary citizens.

    Report Post »  
  • @leftfighter
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:21pm

    Oh crap, oh crap, oh crap, oh crap, oh crap, oh crap, oh crap!

    What are all the underachieving stoner college kids gonna do when their primary source of research material goes dark right when they’re trying to write a paper??

    EVERYBODY FREAK OUT!!!!

    Report Post » @leftfighter  
    • AvengerK
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:06pm

      Oh gosh…whatever will we do without Wikisomething?

      Report Post »  
    • Allstanford
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 7:04pm

      Did you forget about that facething, and that one tube? or what about that bird website? There is more than one site vulnerable here!

      Report Post » Allstanford  
  • FlatFoot
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:15pm

    Oh Noes! The human race has been barely able to survive and thrive on this planet for all of the entirety of human history without Wikipedia… the online encyclopedia of questionable knowledge written by and edited by anyone and everyone from anywhere and everywhere on the globe with an internet connection and an email address.

    Whatever shall we do without Wikipedia?

    APOCALYPSE! OH MY GAWD!

    Report Post » FlatFoot  
    • thekuligs
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:19pm

      I’m going to go dust off my encyclopedia set….

      Report Post » thekuligs  
    • V-MAN MACE
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:53pm

      I already AM a walking encyclopedia. Thats what happens when you read volumes of World Book and libraries full of National Geographic, etc.

      Report Post » V-MAN MACE  
    • Freedom.Fighter
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:54pm

      Actually, encyclopedia sets do not have people checking the “experts” that write the articles. Even in the book, The Last Lecture, the author wrote that he would take Wikipedia as a source over any of the encyclopedias since at least wikipedia has people constantly checking each others’ work. This is after he wrote an article for an encyclopedia and no one double-checked his own work.

      I do believe the loss of Wikipedia would be a huge step back in terms of productivity and access to free information. Isn’t that what conservative and especially libertarians want?

      Report Post » Freedom.Fighter  
  • collectorbob810
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:14pm

    facebook stole 60 dollars from me so i say shut them down. think of all the jobs. every post would need to be screened it take 10s of millions of people to do that. and china dose need the work.

    Report Post »  
  • A Conservatarian
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:13pm

    Hmmm so what candidate do you think would most likely fight this government intrusion?

    Ron Paul 2012!

    Report Post » A Conservatarian  
    • Rational Man
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:16pm

      Ron Paul stinks!

      Report Post » Rational Man  
    • Mr. Oshawott
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:35pm

      @A Conservatarian

      Amen to that! Only Ron Paul has the will to fight against the government’s heinous desire to gain more un-Constitutional power. If anyone wants to return to living under maximum liberty and mimimum government, Ron Paul is the candidate to vote.

      Report Post » Mr. Oshawott  
  • 1me2ao
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:13pm

    leave the damn tubes alone..

    Report Post »  
  • toomuchgovt
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:12pm

    I think all websites hosts should take a stand with wikipedia. Go Blank for a few days / a few hours. That would get Americans Attention. Maybe then they would understand what censorship would look like. Or better yet “This is what democracy looks like”. Through in TV, only have the lame stream media news.

    Report Post » toomuchgovt  
    • toomuchgovt
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:17pm

      Sorry about that, I’ve been up all night with a sick dog. I meant “throw in TV”.

      Report Post » toomuchgovt  
  • WAKEUPUSA2012
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:12pm

    Gotta love the goverment

    Report Post » WAKEUPUSA2012  
    • Mr. Oshawott
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 6:05pm

      @WakeUpUSA2012

      (sarcastically) Oh, yes, don‘t we all just love it when the government comes up with new pieces of tyrannical legislation that’ll allow it to seize control of the internet, all in the name of “stopping online piracy?”
      Sigh…This is so melancholy on so many levels, since the internet is pretty much the only source of freedom that the government hasn’t yet squelched. But, then again, there are those giant corporations such as Google and the Warner Music Group that are making YouTube so arduous to use, so, yes, sad it is to say, I think our freedom within the internet is already under the danger of being vaporized as we speak.

      Report Post » Mr. Oshawott  
  • Alvin691
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:09pm

    Better idea: Shut down Wikipedia, regardless of the bill. It is so biased.

    Report Post »  
    • abbygirl1994
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:11pm

      Better yet shut down Snopes.. talk about liberal bias!

      Report Post » abbygirl1994  
    • toomuchgovt
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:15pm

      So change it. I’ve been correcting, the misinformation with facts I’ve learned by self taught history. I could use some help. I know others are doing the same. It is a great idea, the wrong people just control it, because they have all the time. But we have more people. Correct a little each day or week. Be a part of the solution.

      Report Post » toomuchgovt  
    • Cuthalu
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:27pm

      You know that is the same thinking of liberals who do not like some conservative websites. Like this site. What the government is willing to do towards those we disagree with can easily one day be used against us as well.

      Report Post »  
    • Freedom.Fighter
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 5:15pm

      If we need to delete it based on how biased it is, then shouldn’t foxnews.com, msnbc.com or even theblaze.com be deletd as well?? We need to defend every website’s freedom of speech.

      Report Post » Freedom.Fighter  
  • lukerw
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:09pm

    Stupid GOP PROGRESSIVES!

    TEA!

    Report Post » lukerw  
  • pap pap
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:05pm

    Isn’t Big Government Just Wonderful ???

    Report Post »  
    • abbygirl1994
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:10pm

      No it sucks!!

      Report Post » abbygirl1994  
    • junior1971
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:51pm

      What ever do you mean? This is order! New world order. heheheheh. The holiday season is always the time they pass outrageous laws because they think we are too busy with celebration. A couple of years ago it was obamacare. This year it is indefinite detention for suspected te..or.st. Remember the dhd video about what to look for in a te..or.st, beasteality and sodomy in the military, seizing control of the internet, a nice juicy tax bill sneaks quietly through congress, and facistic progressives leading the fabricated polls, being backed by the tea party (right) heheheheh. These people are desperate and they have been exposed and they have already lost. Now backed into a corner, the animals lash out from fear of retribution. And retribution is coming in wave after wave, after wave, beginning with November 2012. Merry Christmas!

      Report Post » junior1971  
  • Wdawg
    Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:02pm

    Its crap legislation! They are trying to control freedom of speech on the internet!

    Report Post » Wdawg  
    • V-MAN MACE
      Posted on December 13, 2011 at 4:58pm

      You know…this is really a pretext to shut down Alex Jones, right…?

      It’s TOO LATE.

      There’s MILLIONS OF ALEX JONESES NOW!!!

      MUAHAHAHAHA!!!

      THEY WILL NOT STOP THE SPREAD OF TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Report Post » V-MAN MACE  
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