‘You Can’t Be Moral & Believe in God’?: Penn Jillette Sits Down with The Blaze — and Credits Glenn Beck
- Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:18am by
Billy Hallowell
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On Monday evening, magician, comedian, author and outspoken atheist Penn Jillette spoke at a Barnes & Noble in Manhattan, New York, about his thoughts on secularism and his most recent book, “God, No!” Donning his signature long hair, a hat and jeans, the forthright commentator answered questions and interacted with his eager audience. Following his speech and subsequent book signing, The Blaze sat down with him for a quick interview about his views on a plethora of theological issues.
Jillette and I shook hands, as he introduced himself with a friendly smile and we headed into a private room at the bookstore. Once seated, the entertainer openly answered each and every inquiry with ease and confidence.
During our talk — and for a portion of his speech beforehand — Jillette credited Glenn Beck as the inspiration for his book. There’s irony here, of course, considering that the two commentators differ greatly when it comes to matters of faith. But according to Jillette, it was Beck who challenged him to write out his views on the atheist version of the Ten Commandments.
Magician Penn Jillette, left, and magician Teller (AP)
“It was Glenn who said, ‘Write the atheist Ten Commandments’ and I did what he told me to. I don’t do everything Glenn tells me to, but in this case it worked out well,” Jillette told me during our discussion, going on to give Beck accolades. “I really respect how open he is. He seems to be at a very deep level of intellectual. He seems to be willing to listen to other ideas.”
Our discussion about Beck and the book quickly turned to atheism and the intense debate that has raged since the beginning of time between those who embrace the notion of a higher power and those who do not. Among the subjects discussed, Jillette was asked how he responds when Christians, among others, say that atheists can’t be “good without God.” Without pause, he responded.
“What I think is so odd is that whenever you back an evangelical into a corner, they will tell you ‘God is good.‘ They will not say ’God is to be obeyed no matter what,’” Jillette said. “They will say ‘God is good.‘ And once you’ve said ‘God is good,‘ you’ve included atheists in good. You’ve included a morality that is outside.”
It is this morality, Jillette explained, that is very important for atheists. While many Christians and religious people maintain that God is the source of all that is good, for people who don’t believe, morality is something that is viewed as more universal in nature.
“Morality existing outside of God is a pretty important thing for atheists,” he continued. “Morality only being within God, I think is part of the problem we have with some Muslims.”
Jillette took the subject even further, though, highlighting a soundbite he’s been known to use in the past. In contrast to the Christian argument that one cannot be good without the Lord, he said that it’s quite possible to argue the opposite — that one cannot be moral with God.
The premise for this assertion, of course, is rooted in the fear that people have when they consider that a higher power is watching over their every move. Rather than finding motivation in doing the right thing simply for the sake of it, individuals may find themselves acting simply because they are being observed by God. This, in Jillette’s view, strips away the morality.
“My definition, for my children, for instance, is that I don‘t want my son to not hit my daughter when I’m watching, because he’s afraid of being punished,” he proclaimed in his booming voice. “I don‘t want him to not hit his sister when I’m watching, because he’ll be rewarded. I want him to not hit his sister, because hitting people is wrong.”
In a world that is often defined and described in 140 characters or less, Jillette will sometimes use quick soundbites that he doesn’t necessarily embrace to spark conversation. For instance, he’ll say, “You can’t be moral and believe in God.” Through some chuckles, he made sure to clarify that he believes one can “certainly be moral with God,” however he doesn’t see the two as mutually exclusive.
Jillette went on to discuss the underrepresentation of atheists in prison as well as the notion that there is no evidence that unbelievers are committing more immoral acts that their theistic counterparts. Rather than seeing spikes in alcoholism, pornography consumption and the like, Jillette claimed that these issues have no correlation when it comes to belief or disbelief in a higher power.
While many believers may dislike some of Jillette’s comments on the issue of faith, he was free from any malice or rude intent during our discussion. In fact, he seemed bent on striking a balance between his own fervency and his belief that theists, too, should be vocally making their theological points. He even went on to say that proselytizing is something he believes in wholeheartedly. The comedian and magician even voiced his disagreement with the way that atheists stereotypically treat Christians who are open about their beliefs.
“The idea that atheists give that it’s okay if [Christians] believe that stuff as long as they shut up is, I believe, an offensive and immoral,” he said. ”Atheists are a little more guilty of that. Atheists will be a little more, ‘Be a good Christian and shut up.’ And that always bothers me.”
Jillette, who claims he was a believer until he read the entire Bible, was a Congregationalist before becoming a secularist. He maintained his religious beliefs until high school and he concludes that reading the holy book from cover to cover “is the fast route” to non-belief.
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Comments (615)
recoveringneocon
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:44amHow Glenn found God.
When Stossel asked Beck why he decided to become a Mormon,
Beck replied:
“I apologize, but guys will understand this. My wife is, like, hot, and she wouldn’t have sex with me until we got married. And she wouldn’t marry me unless we had a religion.”
Beck’s wife, Tania, confirmed it to Stossel: “He’s not joking.”
Report Post »DrFrost
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:55amIt doesn’t matter how you get there. You can be right for the wrong reason.
Report Post »abbygirl1994
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:58amAnd your point is?????????????
Report Post »hauschild
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:07pmIf you don’t believe in anything (especially a higher power), you cannot be trustworthy and what’s a more important characteristic of a man than being trustworthy???
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:30pmHa. Saul was struck blind , knocked off his high horse, and hit the ground asking about the Lord.
Report Post »one.dakine.howlie
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:36pm“By their fruits, ye shall know them.” Any man who comes to Christ with that sort of foundation would never keep the faith. I think it‘s obvious from Glenn’s own actions since joining the LDS Church that he has a strong testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Report Post »BetterNTexas
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:39pmHave you ever read Glenn’s first book “The Real America?” He goes into great detail as to how he found God and became a Mormon. A couple of seconds of a soundbite doesn’t really tell the whole story.
Yes, she wouldn’t marry him until they found a religion, but they investigated many, many religions prior to visiting an LDS Church. He started with the first church listed alphabetically in the phone book and skipped over “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” when he got to it in the phone book. How many churches are listed before the LDS Church? A lot. He doesn’t say how far past the LDS Church listing he got before Pat Gray called him up and said, “Hey–I hear you’re on a church tour. After all you put me through you owe it to me to at least visit mine.”
He’s not Mormon because Tania convinced him to become one. He’s Mormon because he investigated many, many churches and after that journey found God in the LDS Church. He spoke in my hometown several years ago about joining the LDS Church. His faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ and in the LDS faith runs very, very deep. He doesn’t talk about it a lot on the air, but having heard him talk about it in person, I can say with confidence that his conversion to Mormonism is not based on his wife.
GollygeeMrwilson
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:58pm@DrFrost….As I read this article about Penn I knew what I felt but struggled with how to put it into a comment. Then I saw yours. You nailed it. Thanks!
Report Post »black9897
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:00pmFrom what Glenn has said, it doesn‘t seem like he’s actually a mormon.
anyways. I will be checking out Penns book. Even though I don’t agree with his religious views (or lack there of) I have great respect for the guy. I’d like to know his thoughts on C.S. Lewis “Mere Christianity”
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:08pmI think Jilette is a great moral person. I love his views on politics and hope one day he finds God. That being said Mormons are moral people also but they worship a false god. You can be moral not be a believer in the God of the Bible. Gandhi was a great moral man but he didnt believe the Jesus Christ of the Bible died for his sins and I believe he is in hell.
Report Post »EGsimi1776
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:32pm@Mutiny
“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi
Would there be a heaven Ghandi is most certainly there. God would not overlook one such as he.
Report Post »sccerulz10
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:35pm@Mutiny – And who says Mormons don’t worship the God of the Bible? Last I heard, they believe in God the Father, his son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.
Report Post »...beckisnuts...
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:41pmIt’s all a load of superstitious rubbish.
Report Post »hillbillyinny
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:51pmAnd Beck said that when they were visiting churches, when they went to the LDS church his two young teenage daughters, liked the “atmosphere” there and asked to go back again.
So. . . doesn’t sound like a deep theological choice to me, but Glenn is a wise person, so. . .I pray daily for him, his family, his company, and his associates whenever I think of something to do with GBTV.
God’s will be done!
I’m sorry, but as a Catholic by choice and profession of faith (not re-baptized of my Presbyterian baptism), I do believe that many of the “theology” discussions will seem a mute point when we see Jesus’ face, and behold the Glory of God and realize that, “None are righteous, no not one. . . ” (Romas 3:11, NIV); but “. . .and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (3:24-26)
I definitely would disagree that “God was a man at one time.“ and ”Jesus is the Spirit brother of Lucifer.” But, I’m going to leave it up to God to sort out the BELIEF in the Redemption through Jesus death on the Cross, and the semantics. I’m not wise enough,
Report Post »DrSique
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:02pm@BECKISNUTS
Report Post »Thank you for proving Gillettes point that atheists are often the least tolerant. I started reading this article thinking that it would piss me off. I was happily proven wrong. Too bad more Americans cannot have an open and honest discussion while respecting the beliefs of others. Unlike Mr.Gillette, I do not believe that accepting the existence of God and acting in a moral fashion is, in any way, a contradiction. Nor do I believe that the morality within the teachings of Jesus has anything to do with being watched.
VastRightWingConspirator
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:16pmEGSIMI1776
Report Post »I’m sorry about the fact that you are wrong. Ghandi worshipped a false God. He knew the word of Christ and turned from it. In Christ’s own words, “no man shall see the Father but through Me.” Ghandi was a great human as far as we know from his public life and what some Hollywierd movie claimed about him, although there are claims he was unfaithful to his wife which we cannot confirm of deny. But, regardless he died without Christ and thus is in Hell. A true shame when simply accepting Christ would have forgiven all of his sins and secured him a place in Heaven.
GLOCKU
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:27pm@BETTERNTEXAS, Glenn also constantly complains about having to go to church. He says he would rather sleep in and sit on the couch eating Doritos. Of course, LDS services are a bit arduous to say the least. He also comments on how some evangelical services are more like a rock concert. Remember Glenn, we are saved by grace, not by works. Mormons attending church services for 4 or 5 hours doesn’t make them more spiritual, just saying.
Report Post »boristhescot
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:29pmYou see, Vastright, that’s one thing I like about the Mormons. Generally they would rather try to achieve their own salvation than condemn people to hell. The mantra I most often hear from them is that God is the judge on things like that.
Report Post »VastRightWingConspirator
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:40pmBORIS
Report Post »God is the judge, but the bible makes it clear.
freeamericanow
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:50pmYour comment is pretty shallow, because you didn‘t listen to the rest of Glenn Beck’s conversion story. Of course he jokes around, but he did not change religions for such a shallow reason.
Report Post »LetUsReason
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:50pm@ GLOCKU
When Glenn talks like that, it’s done tongue in cheek. He has spoken before about his love for teaching Sunday School, etc. By the way, it’s 3 hours, not 4 or 5. Also, LDS don’t believe it makes them any better than you by being in a church building for an hour or two each week longer than what is typical for some other faiths. Sounds to me like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. You should get over yourself.
Report Post »...beckisnuts...
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:06pmDRSique It’s “Jillette” nor “Gillette.” You’re blissfully unaware about so much in life. Lucky for you there’s superstitious false narratives to help you make sense of it all.
Report Post »Cesium
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:08pm@Hauschild I do not believe in god and I am trustworthy and proud about that fact. Like Penn points out, there more god believers in prison than atheists…
Report Post »Marci
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:09pmEither way, he has embraced his religion wholeheartedly. As for Jillette, I really respect this guy. I don’t have a problem with someone not believing in God, I have a problem with those who make it a religion to abolish all references to God in Christianity while fully ignoring any other religious references from other religions. Those particular atheists embrace a totally different religion–one of power and control that has little to do with not believing in God and almost everything to do with being anarcho-libertarians. Their real goal is the same of OWS. Look at SE Cupp, she is an atheist, but she lives and let lives.
Report Post »marchon
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:14pm….So about the headline…You can’t be moral and believe in God…..but….You can’t you be immoral and know.
Report Post »...beckisnuts...
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:14pmLDS, Scientology, Pentecostal snake handlers, Jehovas Witness, Child molesting Catholics, Gay-hating Baptists, Evangelical end timers, Primitive bloody Muslims – they’re all superstitious delusional and harmful to the rest of humanity. Give a thug a god to hide behind while lord over others and you’ve got trouble. Like this poem says: God is love: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNdMJsRnu80&feature=youtu.be
Report Post »WakingSheep
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:20pmPenn is very smart and definitely thinks outside the box.
He is full of common sense for believers and non-believers alike.
I‘m supprised everybody isn’t on here talking about his long hair and how much of a druggy he is.
Report Post »Or how far left he is.
FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:23pmHauschild
Report Post »You can‘t be trusted if you don’t believe in a higher power? That‘s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Being trustworthy has nothing to do with a higher power. Both types of people can be trustworthy and both can be untrustworthy.
...beckisnuts...
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:38pmWakingsheep, Penn Jillette has never taken a drink of alcohol and he has never used drugs. Ever. You must be thinking of your master and messiah Glenn Beck. He was a drugged out mess and an alcoholic people abuser and a bully for many many years. Now he uses religion to bully others around. Penn Jillette should’ve never granted this interview in the first place. He’ll hear about it next time we talk. lolol
Report Post »mountainmover101
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:46pmGlenn found a god not God. Let’s be clear about that.
Report Post »Alessandre
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:47pm@EGSimi1776: “Would there be a heaven Ghandi is most certainly there. God would not overlook one such as he.”
we can‘t know if Ghandi accepted Christ’s mercy or rejected it. The requirements for salvation are rather easy: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9) I’m Catholic & even Catholics know it’s not based on works but on our response to Jesus Christ. all we can do is wait until we arrive in heaven & then we’ll know. of course, we can learn an enormous amount from Ghandi but we can’t know if he is saved.
Report Post »Polwatcher
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:06pmI like his dandelion commercial but he knows nothing about morality. There have always been so called “moral” people without any discernable religion. There have always been “religious” people who were immoral. The Romans had their five “commandments” which were pretty darn good but these commandments didn’t keep them from slaughtering people when they wanted. There were the Atomists, there were the Epicurians, and on and on. These were probably moral people in their day but I doubt they went around bothering everyone.
My view is that Christ taught people how to live well with one another during barbaric times. While all Christians are not neccessarily moral, most are. Athiests have a pretty bad track record. Athiestic countries have enslaved and killed over 100 million people in the past 100 years. That must be some kind of record. Current day athiests have bloviated that they would need to kill at least 25 million Americans to make this country “right” in their eyes.
All those who hate this country for what it is ought to try going somewhere else. They probably won’t do that because they are just spoiled kids who want to keep on bothering the rest of us. Moral athiests should raise their family and enjoy their lives without bothering everyone else, just as they have done for eons.
Report Post »godlovinmom
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:09pmRecovering…Here goes my two cents about this article and your comment…so what thats how Glen found religion…Mormonism is no better or worse than anyother man made religion…I have always liked Glen…but have always been surprised that he is a mormon…for a man that is always searching for the truth, that is…I was introduced to Jesus by my alcoholic husband to be..his faith was STRONG, his body weak, like most of us…I feel REAL sorry for non believers…when you ask Jesus into your life and hand it over to him…you have so much PEACE…your whole LIFE changes…its a wonderful thing! God Bless…on a side note regarding ghandi…no matter how good you are…unless you except Jesus and what God did for YOU..For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life…Amen Jesus!
Report Post »WakingSheep
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:17pm@…beckisnuts…
I never stated he used drugs or was alchoholic.
I was just stating how judgemental most on the blaze usually are.
Usually if the pic has somebody with long hair, colored hair, or facial hair that isn’t norm;
People on the blaze like to comment about how left the person is or their a druggy, or an anarchist.
It really is dumb…… Don’t judge is what I say.
Penn is a great libertarian thinker. I really like his philosophy as it is in line with the founding fathers.
Report Post »Very common sense approach to everything.
West Coast Patriot
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:18pmNot only does Penn Jillette not do drugs, he has never taken a puff of marijuana, never has taken a sip of any kind of alcohol. But, he is adamantly against the war on drugs, as he knows it does not work and just causes us to throw money down the toilet. He really is a good guy.
Report Post »cyntro
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:18pmGlenn would not be the ten billionth man lead to God by a woman. Nor was he the last.
Report Post »Larryjr
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:20pmI’d say you go Tanya
Report Post »MAMMY_NUNN
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:43pmPeople who are religous can be to religous to the point of insanity I have seen a few in the rubber rooms.
Report Post »OneTermPresident
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 5:27pm@RECOVERINGNEOCON… Are you a real idiot, or do you just play a Democrat on the Internet?
Report Post »CW3147
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 7:29pmIf anyone hasn’t read “The real America”, you can read the story here: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695232408/Making-a-better-Glenn-Beck.html?pg=1
Report Post »jhaydeng
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 8:37pmAnother liberal only writing half of the interview! Nice job recocon! Idiot!
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 8:57pm@HAUSCHILD
Hundreds of Catholic Priest believe in a higher power. Are they trustworthy?
Thousands of radical Muslims believe in a higher power. Are they trustworthy?
Satan(in theory if he existed), believes in a higher power, is “he” trustworthy?
The fact that you think you can’t be trustworthy without “believing” in a God shows how silly you are.
If you will believe in a God, what else will you believe in?
Report Post »P8riot
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 9:15pm@recoveringneocon –
Why am I the first person to have to post this link?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USpeolBTKIo&feature=related
Here is Glenn’s conversion story in his own words – without the jokes.
Report Post »TomSawyer
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 10:48pm@EGsimi1776, If Gandhi excepted Jesus Christ, he is in heaven, otherwise, he is not. Even if he said negative things about Christians, that is not a reason to allow a sinner into heaven. Are Christians imperfect? Yes. Are atheist imperfect? Yes. Was Gandhi imperfect? Yes.
Report Post »recoveringneocon
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 10:48pmP8riot
Thanks for the video. Now that’s the Glenn I used to know. 2008 If anyone compares this video to one of his shows today, they would conclude that Glenn has lost his way. To be honest I had lots to say about Glenn, none of it very kind, but I think I will pray for him instead. Thanks again P8riot.
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:39pm@P8RIOT
Hahahaha I knew the “I’ll pray for him” crowd would come.
Report Post »ModerationIsBest
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 1:25am“If there is Kool-aid down there, i’m drinking it.”
Religion summed it up in one sentence.
Report Post »morningzoo
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 10:02amOf course, Beck was known to have gay sex, frequently, in his days as a cocaine addict
Report Post »binge_thinker
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 3:41pmNone are so blind as those who refuse to see. Poor Penn‘s rhetoric is so old and tired but that’s the modus operandi of the militant Godless. To imply that atheism leads to a more peaceful, moral, law-abiding, and socially beneficial life, then I have a few questions for Penn here. Why, according to reports, did Columbine High School killers Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris ask their classmates why they believed in God just prior to blowing their brains out? Why did mass murderer/cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer explain his awful acts to Stone Phillips by saying, “When you don’t believe in God there are no rules”? And finally, why do I see hospitals, orphanages, homeless shelters, alcoholic treatment programs, and all sorts of other socially redemptive institutions with names like “St. Jude’s,” “Good Shepherd,” “Our Lady of Peace,” “Baptist Memorial,” etc. but none named “No God”? It is hard to imagine what this world would be like if Jesus had never been born.
Go back to card tricks Penn and leave theology to people that have more than a second grade understanding of it, like you do.
Report Post »Just saying.
godlovinmom
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 5:00pmBingeThinker…very well put.
Report Post »AnimalsAsLeaders
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 9:25pmBS – Glenn became mormon for the large underpants and a planet in the afterlife.
Report Post »1592
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 10:48pmPenn needs to stick to the Jokes. It’s harder to believe in the BIG BANG than GOD.
Report Post »It easy to be an Athiest. Do what ver you want and don’t think about it. Like a LIB!
Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:44amHow many are atheist when they go into prison?>
How many never gave religion much thought (apatheists) prior to going into prison?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9298578/Prisoners-under-pressure-to-convert-to-Muslim-gang.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2890260/posts
http://current.com/news-and-politics/92317639_muslim-prison-gangs-on-the-rise.htm
It has hit the news & blogosphere!
Get with the program Gillette!
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:14pmYou miss understood what he was saying. First of all these prison gangs you referenced are not Muslims because they had a religious awakening. They are Muslims because of the protection the group provides. If the group called themselves atheist the same thing would be happening. Back to Gillette, he was only saying that atheist do not commit more crime than the religious people do and that someones morality has nothing to do with them believing in god or not. They would have the same morality no matter what they believe. They take their morality with them to what ever religion they have or don’t have.
Report Post »goldmind
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:41pmIn prison, I also looked more closely at the Bible and the Koran, and man always tells on himself when embellishing the truth. Evolution has a wealth of facts to support it, and religion a wealth of overzealous imaginations. If there is a god, I remain confident the human race is a huge disappointment. And those of us who questioned and even doubted his/her/its existence will be given greater consideration on the “day of judgement.”
Report Post »lawrench
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:59pmThe problem as I see it is that some Religious people want to force their beliefs onto others. Most religions do this, right or wrong, this puts some people off. A persons relationship with God is personal and should reflect that relationship in their actions. What we find is that all of us say one thing and do another. How many times has preachers, priests, and other religious leaders say one thing and get caught doing another? For Christians we only need to look at pedophile priests, Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker for examples. Is there any wonder why Church attendance is down across the world? Should we go out and try to convert non-believers to God when we do not follow God’s laws? To me, that would be hypocritical, and is the reason that I no longer attend Church services. I do however try to worship God daily. There is an old adage “You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink” and that is the way Christianity should also work, tell them about Jesus Christ and how he died for our sins, if they do not want to follow, move on. The only way to change people’s minds is to set examples for others to follow. Remember that only us as individuals will have to answer to God for our actions, BHO will not answer for my sins as I will not have to answer for his.
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:35pmI sure hope so GoldMind.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:46pmFedUpWithLibs
They are Muslims because of the protection the group provides. True
I might not have wrote everything, but I didn’t miss anything. Forced or not, a percentage will stay Muslim & Islam will make increasing inroads.
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:23pmWalkAbout
Report Post »Now your missing what I was saying. I was saying that you were talking about prisoners and religion to try and dispute what he was saying. He was not talking about prisoners he only use them to make his point more visual. You are not disproving his point by talking about prisons. That’s all I was saying. You need to take a swing from a different approach.
SPQR_Rome_part2
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:25pmI have come to respect Penn Gillette after watching celebrity apprentice. I dont care if we have differing beliefs, he appeared to be a very respectful person.
Report Post »VastRightWingConspirator
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:38pmGOLDMIND
Where exactly are these “facts” that support the admitted “theory” of evolution. I’m not talking about some atheist website that spews theories as facts, I mean scientific fact. Good luck finding any. That‘s why after all these years it’s still called the theory of evolution, and why scientists who disbelieve this theory are increasing every year.
Hundreds of scientists have joined this one list. And this is just one list on one website.
http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/scientists/
The problem is that this is treated like man-made global warming. Atheists claim the science is settled and attempt to discredit anyone who disagrees. Granted, some of these scientists believe in evolution as part of intelligent design. But, the numbers against darwinism are growing.
Regardless of which side you fall on this argument, faith is required. We either were created by God, or we are an accident made from a premordial puddle of goo at the perfect temp with the perfect amount of the perfect chemicals which became a cell a multi-cell an organism a fish thing a fish a lung-fish a lizard thing a rodent thing a mammal thing a monkey thing which climbed a tree then for some unexplained reason left the tree to become an ape thing then a man thing.
Yeah, and you say my beliefs are fantasy.
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:13pmIf you don‘t believe in evolution you’re an idiot. You grasp at this idea that evolution has to be false because if it’s not then the religion you spent your life believing in will not be true. Well, if you truly had faith then it wouldn’t matter if evolution is true. Anyway, it’s a fact that humans evolved from ape-like ancestors. Where the word theory come in is if it happened the way evolution says it does. Evolution is a theory in the sense that it is trying to explain HOW we evolved from ape-like ancestors not IF we did. But this does not mean anyone’s religion is wrong it just means that you were not supposed to read the bible as a fact of history. The bible was not meant to be a history book. You need to stop treating it like it was.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 6:18pmgoldmind
” And those of us who questioned and even doubted his/her/its existence will be given greater consideration on the “day of judgement”
So I guess most everyone will get extra consideration. Certainly Mother Theresa questioned the existence of God. Everyone in my family has and since my family is not particularly special, then one could extrapolate & say most people do.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 6:21pmDarwin replied that a man “can be an ardent Theist and an evolutionist”, citing Charles Kingsley and Asa Gray as examples
Report Post »mauijonny
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 7:34pmI’ve always liked PG. I‘m glad he’s had the choice to be an athiest in a land that has it’s foundation in the moralities of Christianity…
Report Post »reality_check
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 4:40pmWhen men refuse to have God in their knowledge, he gives them up to a “reprobate mind,” i.e., one which does not “pass the test” (Rom. 1:28). They are not intellectuals, as they fantasize; they are fools.
As G.K. Chesterton once said: “When men cease to believe in God, they do not believe in nothing; they believe in anything!”
Report Post »reality_check
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 4:43pmFed up,
You look at some very basic evolutionary occurrences where creatures may or may not have adapted to their environment, and look at how certain characteristics may have been culled out while others may have been encouraged — and from there you extrapolate single-celled organisms evolving into man, and you fail to see the miracle of balance required just to sustain life on the planet, and you pass off the miraculous complexity of proteins and DNA. The leaps of logic from those secular soft-science adherents who think they’re “the logical ones” is almost obscene in the level of absurdity.
It requires preposterous leaps of logic, and an obstinate willingness to ignore and deny and deny your Creator.
If the Darwinian theory is the best you atheists can come up with as something to grasp onto, then it‘s no wonder you’re so readily misled in your faithlessness. One wonders if some of it is not truly disbelief, but actual diabolical influence.
Report Post »InWithForGod
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:43amRomans 8 and
Report Post »1 Corinthians 13 and
John 15 and
1 John 4.
Need I say more?
PATTY HENRY
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:58pmTHINKABOUTTHIS: There is only one reason for THIS life: To decide if we are trustworthy. IF we’ll make the right decision and choose God. What would seem to outsiders as terribly binding and enslaving is actually the most FREEING and Fabulous existing there is. To know your Creator Loves you and that you are learning how to be the best for His Highest. Silly people throughout the ages have used Religion, Politics to try to make OTHERS do what they wanted (when they couldn’t begin to control themselves). IF there was something better in the Universe than GOD or something more meaningful I’d want that…but Iearned decades ago that HE was the very TOP of the FOOD CHAIN and I have tried to learn and understand (and become albeit failing daily) to be MY UTMOST for HIS HIGHEST (a fabulous daily prayer book now in it’s second Century of publication). True Faith is total Freedom, Penn. You should try that book. You are obviously seeking (maybe don’t know it) !
Report Post »Fight_Ignorance
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:57pmINWITHFORGOD… Yes, you do need to say more. I dont read Fiction, Myth, Fairy tales, Fables ect…
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:20pm…BeckIsNuts..
Report Post »What’s your point.
dangarh01
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:50pm@INWITHFORGOD
Yup, good scriptures. The Law was given to show us our sins. We continued to sin, and made new ones. But God loved us so much he gave us his on and only son Jesus Christ to save us, and we no longer have to be slaves to sin. Thats the thing, an atheist lives to please the flesh, a true Christian lives to serve and do God’s will. Penn seems to be a nice guy, but he said he read the Bible when he was in high school. I remember trying to read the Bible when I was in high school….Hopefully one day he will give it another try and open his heart to God.
Report Post »goldmind
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 6:18pmNo you needn’t say more…and really haven’t said anything, other than cite some scriptures. A fundamental ploy used by religionists. Again, it gets back to the rampant hypocrisy, theological flim flamming, brutality and shaded meanings used by clerics from all faiths to dupe a very gullible public. Most who profess knowing their gods, know even less about themselves. If you must believe so strongly in something so elusive and convoluted, why not try investing more of those beliefs in self?
Report Post »girlnurse
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 3:16pmMatthew 16:24-26 – Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
Report Post »Chromo200
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:41amYou can’t get to heaven through good works. If he does not believe in God and Jesus, then that his choice. A lot of people have read the Bible from cover to cover and came to the conclusion that there was a God.
Report Post »hatchetjob
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:49amPenn can have all the morality and goodness he wants, but without Jesus he is lost and going to hell, sadly.
Report Post »Patrick74
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:26pmHatchetjob – it seems you ignore Romans – 2:12-15, that talks of Gentiles who know nothing of the law (and God), but do what is written on their hearts, the “law written on their hearts.” It is to know of Christ and to specifically reject him that will cause greater condemnation. And even those who claim to know Christ may be condemned, as Christ tells us when He says that many on the day of final judgment will claim to have followed Him, and He will say that He did not know them.
Someone like Jillette has heard of Christ, maybe even studied a little, but he has rejected Christ. That is the difference.
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:35pmyes, there is danger there; but, if he is able to go back, then he is called back.
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:57pm@SEARCHING FOR THE TRUTH
Correct. That is why it is good that we are not judged until the end.
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:24pmMaybe a new persuasion ought to be called ” The Overcomers.”
Report Post »zwolfe12
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:06pmI don‘t think he’s trying to get to heaven. I‘m sure he doesn’t believe in it. That said, condemning a man for wanting to do good just for the sake of doing good, is in itself wrong. Becareful of how you judge because each of us will be judged the same way we judge others.
Jesus is the only way to God. He is the only way we can be redeemed. Simply believing in Jesus as the son of God is critical but it is not enough. We must emulate him and be true deciples. That means that we must be loving like Christ is. See 1 Corinthians 13.
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:26pmRead the heading please – It says you can’t be moral and believe in God.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:41amI question the paucity of atheists in prison. Many young people don’t think about religion or spirituality much. They get to jail & some of them question where they went wrong.
Also there is a lot of recruitment in prison. People try to recruit new inmates into gangs or into religion. The Saudis have funded a very large “outreach” program. Also in England there was a story of people forcibly recruited into Islam. Gillette should study the facts.
Even the notorious Al Gore has caught on.
http://current.com/news-and-politics/92317639_muslim-prison-gangs-on-the-rise.htm
Report Post »mycomet123
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:40amGOD IS LOVE!!!!!! Now comes the argument that can atheist’s love without God. Well it depends what kind of love your talking about. God is SACRIFICIAL LOVE. that means dying for the vary people who are crucifying you! It’s easy to love the people you love & be willing to die for them. The true question is will an atheist die for their enemies??? OR even will a christian die for their enemies???????.
Report Post »BiggsHokes
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:58amuh Christians can’t even love gays so to answer you question. . .its a resounding, “No”.
Report Post »DMG8487
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:30pmHey BIGGSHOKES – we thank you for playing but you are sadly mistaken.
Christians do not hate homosexuals. We abhore their behavior and what it means to them and how it affects all of society but that does not mean that we hate them and do not wish them to give up this immorality as God directs so that they too may be saved.
Report Post »Patrick74
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:31pmBigg – you are wrong. Christians love homosexuals – so much so that they won’t bow down to cultural pressure to simply say “hey, your lifestyle is wrong and self-destructive and will lead you from God, but that‘s just fine so long as it’s what you want to do!“ No more than anyone who loves an alcoholic or drug addict would say ”as long as you’re doing what you want, it’s good!” From a Christian worldview, true love isn’t trying to justify the choices anyone makes simply because they make them. That is where you are wrong.
Report Post »God_Is_Not
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:49pm@Pat
So Jesus loved us so much that he gave us free will. However you love gays so much that you feel you have the right to limit their capacity to love and live their life? Seems backwards to me.
Report Post »VastRightWingConspirator
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:48pmGOD_IS
Report Post »Sorry but PATRICK nailed it (perfectly put Patrick). God gave us freewill to choose him, to force us to choose him would be like Obama. As Christians we are told to love everyone, and being human we often struggle with that, but being Christian we are forgiven for our shortcomings. We as Christians are also told to spread his words to the unclean. That includes gays.
pudssweetie
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 6:12pm@Biggshokes, your statement is false. I consider myself a Christian and have friends who are are gay as well as having a Step Daughter who is gay. Just because I do not agree with their lifestyle does not mean that I can’t love them. I love my gay friends and Step Daughter, I just do not believe or agree with their lifestyle.
Report Post »mycomet123
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 6:17pm@BIGGSHOKES, Christians are suppose to love everyone. If I as a Chrisitian who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ feel that someone is causing harm to his eternal salvation I have an obligation to tell them out of love. Love does not tolerate let alone condone something that is intrinsically harmful to anothers soul. I do not oppose homosexuality because I hate homosexuals. I oppose homosexuality because I believe that it is intrinsically harmful to that person. Love risks being called a hater or intolerant for the salvation of another.
Report Post »figanodie
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 12:00pm@ BIGGSHOKES
I’m a big-time, fundamentalist Christian. I also have a very dear friend, whom I deeply *love.* I care to the very depths of my being about the condition of his soul. It’s not my place to “judge” whether he will spend eternity in Heaven or Hell — that’s between him and God. What I can do here, on this planet, is love him so much and in a way that maybe reflects in some paltry way what the love of Jesus is like. To say that one cannot love gays and be Christian is about as ridiculous as saying one cannot be an atheist and be moral — because I do think that people can live decently and be “good” citizens of society without being Christian.
If you think Jesus isn‘t very tolerant about how to get through Heaven’s door, you’re right. It is a door presented to everybody. What the person does with that offer is up to the individual. He doesn’t drag people through (believing in Him) who don’t want to go through. Why would He? Just as an anecdote, would you force a person to live in your house that didn’t want to be there? How uncomfortable would that be?
While I’m sad for people who use their free-will to choose *not* God, it doesn’t negate my love for them or my desire to remain on friendly terms. I think very often there is a stereotype and unfortunate misconception about Jesus Followers — and there are some pretty whacked out “Christians” out there who really distort the “Christian” brand.
We do and often love gays — all people — ju
Report Post »MBA
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:40amJillette seems like a nice and honorable person. However, it is worth noting that he does have a Christian background before he embraced existentialism. Although I have not read his book, how will he react when his time of testing happens?
Most people do not have the self discipline or basic altrusic instinct to have upstanding morals without some kind of “code” or doctrine to subscribe to unsupervised atheism. If God is the doctrine-so be it. Right now, we have a political system rampant with Godless people with no ethics, no moral compass, and the self-discipline of a pig in a molassas factory. So Mr. Jillette–what is the answer for keeping the corrupt hordes in control? We have laws and regulations out the ears and people are more destructive and pervertedly disgusting every day. It looks to me that people need something to believe in outside of earthly and material wants which only lead to greed, hate, envy, jealousy murder, irresponsibility, dependency, etc. People have a need to aspire to a greater things that are offered here on earth by a higher power–whether God exists or not- with “God” there is motivation to try. Without God, there is no motivation–only wallowing in the gutter with the likes of pelosi, reid, obamy, and worse, hitler, pol pot, stalin, etc.
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:38amHis point is, . . . how would you act if you KNEW that no one was watching? That is what makes the person who they are. If there is a possibility of reward or punishment, the true person is often hidden.
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:45amAnd he is right on target.
Report Post »This site is a perfect place to see “christians” bare their true colors of hate toward anyone they believe different than themselves. There are people here posting everyday that will shoot and kill someone for stealing a candy bar, stop shopping at a store because that store had a black person in their advertisement, and will hate, mock and ridicule someone for being attracted to another person of the same sex. And these very people claim to be Christian!
Yes, Penn is right.
FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:58amHe is saying that being a good person should have nothing to do with if there is a god or not. To say different is like saying that if tomorrow there was proof that god does not exist you would not have to be a good person anymore. I don’t know if there is a god or not. I’m 99 percent sure Jesus is not god I am still a good person though. I still treat others like Jesus said to I just don’t think he was god. I think being good to your fellow man is sufficient to get in heaven. You Christians think that all you need to do is acknowledge that Jesus was god to get into heaven. That alone makes Christianity sound suspicious to me. I am glad there are Christians though I like them they’re great people. Sorry though I can’t force myself to believe. You either do or you don’t. By the way I was raised catholic and have a minor in theology.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:59amI think it demonstrates well Penn’s point of how people behave when no one is watching. Without the anonymity of the internet, would we see many of the Christians were making the vile comments they do?
Report Post »REALID 239823749828-HIF
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:11pm@JHRUSKY
You can do all those things and still be a Christian. Now, I’m not advocating those things, they are all wrong, but it is possible.
Every time I hear of a terrorist torturing or killing someone, I hate them more. I hate Obama and pretty much everyone in congress for the, in my opinion, destruction that they’re bringing to my country and what my children will have to endure because of them. I hate the NBPP for their blatant racism, and people like Debbie Wasserman Schultz for their incredible lies and ridiculous double standards. All of the above are wrong and not very Christian of me.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that Christians are just as fallible as atheists, and shouldn’t really be held to a higher standard. We are commanded to be Christ-like, but we fail more often than not. It‘s an ideal that we strive for that we know we’ll never be able to reach.
The key for us is to admit our failings and repent of them and try to do better. I do try, but there are some feelings I just can’t overcome.
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:28pm@FEDUPWITHLIBS & BRUCE P
One of the lesser known teachings of the LDS Church is our belief in who will be around during the ‘millennium’ – the period of time when Christ returns.
I’m not familiar with other church doctrines, but I’m sure some on here will chime in. I am familiar with our doctrine, so I’ll stick to that.
Brigham Young taught that during this time, only the good, honorable and clean living people will be left, the wicked being cleansed. He also taught that some of these good people will not be Christian, that is: they have not accepted the Gospel, yet.
That shows me that it is possible to be moral without being religious.
This opens me up to much derision, but I think you ought to know that not all Christians condemn you to hell for your non-belief, and as a matter of fact, their teachings are misguided.
We still believe that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, but here in mortality, it is possible to live a good life without knowing who Jesus was.
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:53pm@ realid …
Thank you for your post. I admire your honesty and respect your ideas.
Report Post »WARRIORSCROWN
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:54pmPeople keep commenting on how terrible Christians act, what they say, how they act and hate gays etc. but it should be noted that plenty of non-Christians, atheists, and homosexuals or whatever group they associate themselves with also act the exactly like that too, the only difference being the target group of the attacker. Just because someone calls themselves Christian and acts like a hypocrite does not mean all or even most Christians act that way. Just like not all whites are racists or all Glenn Beck fans are Mormons. So speak your mind fine, but broad finger-pointing generalizations like this about certain groups of people often are spewed by folks who have an axe to grind… Perhaps it would be unfair to call them all haters and hypocrites, but unless they clarify what they mean with a little more specificity they indeed appear to be bigoted haters not unlike the people they are criticizing.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:01pmBROTHER_ED — thank you. It is nice to be able to discuss these things without vitriol. And to discuss them despite what vitriol may be faced.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:07pmWARRIORSCROWN — I think you miss the point. We are not bashing Christians for being sinners. Rather, we are attacking the idea held by some here that Christians have an exclusive claim on morality, that those who are not Christian, in particular atheists, are immoral and capable of the most despicable acts, and the idea that Christians are without sin. We are pointing that that reality does not reflect these claims.
Report Post »REALID 239823749828-HIF
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:11pm@JHRUSKY
If I can’t admit my sins to you, how could I possibly admit them to God, much less repent of them?
Report Post »Mutiny
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:18pm@brother ed
I believe you can be a moral person without the God of the Bible and Jesus Christ. I must ask though, you quote Brigham Young here. Do you believe the rest of Brigham Young’s teachings or is it ok to pick and choose?
Report Post »WARRIORSCROWN
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:21pmNo Bruce P. I’m not missing the point we are talking about two different things… I see comments that are lumping all Christians together painting them in a negative light just because SOME people who claim to be Christians say the stupidest things… it’s just sloppy bs commenting or it is bigotry. That’s my point.
Report Post »FedUpWithLibs
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:05pmBrother_Ed
Report Post »I know this text has no tone so let me tell you, I am saying this with no malice. I am glad that I don‘t have to believe in the Mormon doctrine until it is proven to me at the end of time because that’s the only way it would happen. It does make me laugh though when Christians talk bad about LDS Christians like Constantine and the Council of Nicaea were any different from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Both made up things and said it was from God. The only difference is LDS theology is not as old. No ones beliefs are better than any other. They are all opinion. I also like Mormons as well as Christians. I think in general you are all good people.
Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:34pmWARRIORSCROWN — not much different than saying atheists are immoral because of the actions of others atheists, is it?
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:17pm@MUTINY
I am happy to discuss any of Brother Brigham’s statements, but please be aware that sometimes things may seem weird until other things are understood.
For example, I can‘t teach algebra to someone who doesn’t understand basic math.
The point is, oftentimes detractors pull a seemingly bizarre quote or doctrine out and ask us to explain it, which is quite frankly, impossible to do without a basic understanding of other principals.
Brigham Young is considered a prophet, but he was just a man like everyone else.
To answer your question, I do believe what he taught, though I might not be able to explain it very well as my understanding, though still growing, is limited.
Report Post »brother_ed
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 4:53pm@FEDUPWITHLIBS
I am having difficulties with fat fingers today and have replied twice already, this being the third!! Hahaha
No worries – no malice detected in your question, but thanks for the diclaimer.
I would refer you to http://www.mormon.org for a better explanaton thasn I can give.
The answer is found under the tab “our beliefs‘ in the category of ’restoration of the gospel’
I hope this helps.
Report Post »WARRIORSCROWN
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 9:49pm@Bruce P. “WARRIORSCROWN — not much different than saying atheists are immoral because of the actions of others atheists, is it?” NO it is not at all different Bruce, which is exactly what I’m saying, glad you finally seem to get my point. People are people and labels are labels.
Report Post »MRMANN
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 7:20am@ JHRUSKY
The King James version of the Bible is translated from the original languages.
Report Post »MRMANN
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 7:44amExcellent point.
Report Post »It’d be interesting to read the results of any studies done on this.
YellowFin
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:37amAnd this foolish “wisdom” comes from a atheist and a magician. Both of which is condemned in the Bible. Of course he speaks this nonsense.
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:41amA magician is condemned in your bible? Can you provide proof, please, keeping in mind what type of magic Penn performs?
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:45amSo performing illusions is condemned by the Bible? How silly.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:49amPenn is a magician as in ENTERTAINER not as someone trying to invoke dark forces.
Please re-read you bible or quit trolling.
I never heard the pastor say David Copperfield was evil & never see magic show. We all know that it is all sleight of hand & not really magic.
Well … most of us know :/
Report Post »JediKnight
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:58amPenn Jillette is an illusionist and has even said before that “real magic” doesn’t exist. The Bible condemns trying to use real magic because you can never really know the results. Saying the Bible condemns a magician like Jillette would be like saying the Bible condemns someone for doing a simple card trick. It simply isn’t true.
Report Post »YellowFin
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:02pmGod is speaking tho the nation of Israel;
Isaiah 2:6 – For you have forsaken your people, the house of Jacob. For they have become full of what is from the East, and they are practicers of magic like the Phi·lis´tines, and with the children of foreigners they abound.
Do we think God has changed his mind?
And Egypt practised magic which is condemned by God.
Report Post »Exodus 7:11 – However, Phar´aoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers; and the magic-practicing priests of Egypt themselves also proceeded to do the same thing with their magic arts.
SLOWBIDEN
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:07pm“There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead” , deuteronomy 18:10-16
Report Post »That being said every year Penn Jillette participates in the envocation of Houdinni’s spirit.
jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:15pm@ yellowfin
This is the problem with reading a book that has been translated over and over and over. What you have to do is figure out what the word ‘magic’ was translated from in order to understand the meaning. Was it ‘illusion’, or what is ‘mysticism’, or what is ‘trickery’, or … ?
Report Post »I do not believe God was talking about some illusionists.
Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:16pmSLOWBIDEN — while that is true, you are taking it out of context. He and other SKEPTICS do it as a demonstration that mediumship is a fraud.
Report Post »YellowFin
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:17pmLeviticus 19:26 – “‘YOU must eat nothing along with blood.
“‘YOU must not look for omens, and YOU must not practice magic.
Deuteronomy 18:9 – “When you are entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, 11 or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. 13 You should prove yourself faultless with Jehovah your God.
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:17pm@ slowbiden
“There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead” , deuteronomy 18:10-16
This is the part that always confuses me. Some seem to pick and choose what they want to obey from the Old Testament. It’s OK to eat shellfish and pork now, but not tell fortunes. How do you decide what is OK now and what is not OK now?
Report Post »SerikFox
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:18pmThere is a serious difference between an entertainer and a witch or wizard. He performs illusions to entertain people. He doesn’t try to talk to spirits, he doesn’t use illusions to control people, and he doesn’t use illusions to hurt people. A true witch or wizard is essentially a satanist; this guy isn’t. He isn’t trying to “commune with spirits” (demons in other terms). He uses tricks to create entertaining illusions. He’s one of the most fair atheists out there really – he at least does his best to practice what he preaches. A lot can be said for that, as I have seen so many Christians fail so miserably at that. Rather than reject him, why not welcome him? Hate the sin, not the man.
Report Post »DWilliams08
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:18pmPeen doesn’t believe in magic either. Of course the easily deceived consider illusion magic.
Report Post »SLOWBIDEN
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:24pm@jhrusky – the Bible doesn’t say it a sin to eat pork it says that pigs are unclean animals. That being said I love bacon and porkchops but they are very unhealthy.
Report Post »YellowFin
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:35pmjhrusky,
You asked why is it bad in the Hebrew scriptures and why would it be bad for Christians?
If you really want to find the truth about magic, discover some scriptures applying to Christians in Acts 8:5-13, 13:6-11, 19:18-19, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8, 22:15, 18:23
Report Post »Patrick74
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:39pmYellowfin – You need to read Acts 15, the Apostles’ Synod. Stop quoting the OT law as written, if you are a Christian, as not even we are held to it, AS WRITTEN. Truly, we are held to a higher standard – not *just* what we do, but *why* we do it.
But, as the Apostles determined at the Synod, only four areas of OT law, AS WRITTEN, still apply to us as Christians: we are not to eat food strangled, food offered to idols, we are not to eat blood, and we are to keep to all of the OT laws regarding sexual morality. Again, this refers to the OT laws AS WRITTEN, not what they were intended to accomplish. In that sense, we are held to a higher standard.
Report Post »REALID 239823749828-HIF
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:52pm@JHRUSKY
The first 5 books of the Bible contain Mosaic law from which the above quotes are drawn. Mosaic law doesn’t now, and never has, applied to gentiles. It was only ever applicable to Jews living in Israel before Christ.
For a better answer to your question, please see the following link.
http://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html
Also, please research the purpose of the law. Hint: It was never meant to be followed, and wasn’t even enforced by god himself.
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:52pm@ patrick74
Blood … does that mean no more meat? It’s hard to find any meat that does not contain blood. I’m asking because I am curious as to how “blood” is measured. If I have a rare steak, is that wrong in the eyes of God? Blood sausage, I suspect, is wrong (and I wouldn’t eat it anyways). My enquiring mind wants to know.
Report Post »sldjulius
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:35pmIf definitions can not be agreed upon, there is absolutley no point in having a debate. At that point we are all just spouting opinions, which I guess is what internet commenting is all about. Before you go off spouting about “morality” see if you can even define the terms you are using. Just to name a couple:
Report Post »1. Good
2. Moral
These word are thrown around, but in reality everyone seems to have a different definition of what they mean. So when Mr. Jillette says something is “good”, or something is “immoral”, he likely means something very different than you do. This is why having these meaningless internet debates only adds to the moral confusion, as we can only accurately define terms by what God intends these things to mean, not men.
Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:50pmYellowFin
Jediknights argument was very concise. Troll or not, you are are labeled. you do not reason.
Report Post »Have a nice day
Copo
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:34pmYellowfin: He’s not practicing magic, he’s preforming tricks. Magic is looking a spiritual being other than God for guidance and power (which Jillette doesn’t even believe in), not preforming tricks that appear to be impossible. He’s not calling up dark forces, he’s preforming tricks.
Report Post »YellowFin
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:58pmWalkabout and Copo,
Okay, as you wish it, so be it for you.
Report Post »All I did was let you know what the Bible actually say, you can do with the information as you choose.
Blacktooth
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 5:46pmYellowfin,
Most people do not want any discipline from the Bible. They prefer to make up their own rules.
That is why there are so many religions, all with their own viewpoints.
Report Post »Deckle
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:37amLike all athiest, I would love to be there when he is in a situation that his “moral code” can’t fix and he has to cry out to GOD to save him. It will come, it always does!
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:50amYou would love to be there? Is this so you could wallow in glee in your being correct? Or so that you could enjoy hearing and seeing his anguish? You’re one of those “christians”, eh?
Report Post »DoseofReality
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:15pmHusky – this is the face of the modern christian – sad isnt it?
Report Post »ResIpsa
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:53pmFortunately, this is not the face of the modern Christian. There are many things said and done in the name of Jesus Christ that are not Christians. The exclusivity of Jesus Christ only for Christians is one such positions. Jesus Christ live, died and rose for all of us who accept. If Penn ever accepts the offer or asks to be save, I will be happy for him.
Report Post »One question that comes to mind involves the debate of the “moral” compass. If not based upon an ultimate moral law giver where does morality come from? Not us humans, b/c we humans are self preservationist, at the least, and Megliomaniacs at the worse. I don’t think an atheist needs “to believe” in God (though Penn has the foundational tenants of that morality in his life experience) to have the morality of God to live by. The source that each of us attributes to that foundation is a personal belief, limited to our human existence, as compared to something outside of our existence.
WARRIORSCROWN
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:12pmThere are plenty of good people who are Christians, so when listening to a religious idiot here and their speaking out of his/her rear end maybe you should differentiate between a religious jerk and a good person who also happens to be a Christian, because their are plenty of decent Christian and non-Christian people. As a Christian I don‘t like to be judged by the actions of others and I’m sure you guys who are demonizing all Christians based on the comments of a few jerks don’t liked to be judged by the actions of others either.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 6:43pmDoseofReality
You are the face of modern trollery. Your first posts were in your face & have not been much better since then.
If we took a poll of posters, people would rank JHRUSKY higher than you. It comes down to tone & sincerity of argument. I look for certain names. some because they are erudite & others because they are caustic trolls. If you are not a troll or the distinction is so slight that we cannot tell the difference.
Report Post »Conservative Voice
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:36amBy what standard is hitting your sister wrong? Why is hitting people wrong? Without God, it becomes an opinion. If you say, by the laws of nature…I can show you how according to the laws of nature its might makes right. Its only through the foundation of a Judeo Christian ethic is hitting another person is wrong.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:51amOnly through Judeo-Christian values is hitting considered wrong? Absolute absurdity. Harming another is considered wrong in just about every culture, across the world, long before Christianity came on the scene. The morality Christians claim is exclusive to them are universal throughout humanity, existing long before Christianity.
Besides, this exclusive claim you profess has not prevented Christians from filling the world’s cemeteries with those who were not Christian or not of the right kind of Christianity.
Report Post »golfer8805
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:58amWe as a society decide what is right and wrong. That is why we no longer have slavery and Jim Crow laws.
Report Post »DoseofReality
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:08pmSo I guess hitting people is OK in every other religion or society that has ever existed? Only you christians feel hitting people is wrong? What the F is wrong with you? Are you living in the real world?
Report Post »DWilliams08
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:19pmYou are an evil person at heart. We should be grateful religion exists to keep people like you in check.
Report Post »SquidVetOhio
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:43pm@Bruce
The argument is not that Christians or Jewish or whatever religion is the only ones who believe harming someone is wrong, the argument is that we believe it’s wrong because “Thus saith the Lord….”. On what foundation or moral constant does an athiest say something is wrong? As compared to what?
Report Post »DoseofReality
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:12pmSquid – very simple, the golden rule. This is not something that is unique to christianity. I dont steal from people becasue I wouldnt want my things stolen so its morally wrong. I dont cheat, or lie or murder or commit adultry becasue I wouldnt want those things done to me. Unless someone is a machocist, or deranged, the golen rule is the ultimate morality. I dont need a 2000 year old book, or the fear of a sky daddy watching me at all times to know whats right or wrong.
Report Post »SquidVetOhio
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:14pm@DOSEOFREALITY
First of all, you realize the irony of using the Golden Rule as your arguement since it came from the teachings of Christ. Secondly, what if I don’t mind being robbed? Does that mean I can rob you morally? Who says the Golden Rule is moral? If Darwinian Evolution is true (and it’s not) then whatever morality best suits my self preservation, that is the one I follow. I.E. If you have food and I do not, I exterminate you and take your food. There is no absolute. The morality of non-believers is an attribute gained by the influence of the morality of whatever culture they live among.
Example: The morality of athiests in the U.S is greater (in a religious sense) then an athiest in Vietnam or China. This is un-deniable. Christian morality is a paradox in many cases. Loving your enemy. If your coat is stolen, give them your shirt also. If asked to walk a mile, walk 3 miles. This is against human nature. Yet many athiests who live among christians would claim these things as virtues and they are exclusively christian.
Report Post »DoseofReality
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:41pmSquid…first of all the golden rule is prevalent in many culture’s religious and philospohical writings…it pre-dates christ. So its not just a christian virture, although Im sure your one of the arrogant people who believe no one except christians can be moral, happy and fulfilled in life so its almost moot to even discuss it with you.
Second….. I said unless your deranged, if you like to have your property stolen, your deranged and need help.
Third…I dont know why you chose to call it darwinian evolution, hes simply the first person to get this idea published…and while of course changes to the theory are made all the time (thats the good thing about science, your not stuck fitting all evidence to a prior solutions, you can actually change based on the evidence discovered), every single branch of science confirms and supports evolution. This is not a evolution discussion though…and
Fourth…i dont even know what your talking about with your last “point”….but if someone robs from me, Im not going to give them more of my stuff….so if thats morality to you, thats fine…you live by your morals, Ill live by mine, just dont tell me I cant be a moral person and an atheist at the same time
Report Post »reality_check
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 4:57pmBruce
Finally, with roughly 2000 years of philosophical study, the Christian moral position is far from poorly thought out, and one need not turn to any deity be it real or imagined to demonstrate that you are an argumentative and intellectual lightweight. You are simply too small for this ride and while whining about it may get you some free cotton candy, you still won’t be allowed on the big boy coaster.
Report Post »Gonzo
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:35amHey Penn, Christians don‘t say you can’t be good without Christ. You just can’t be good ENOUGH to get into heaven without Him.
VRW Conspirator
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:49amvery good point Gonzo…and true…there are many moral, ethical, and good men and women in the world that do not believe in the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or even Ishmael for that matter.
Report Post »Many asians, Indians, Hindi, and other relgious people are very good people…Christians just believe you will have no afterlife without Jesus Christ…granted for an atheist…he would just say…”so what, there isn’t an afterlife..”
SquidVetOhio
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:54amExactomundo. People confuse “good” with salvation.
“For by grace are ye save and not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast”
Report Post »-Ephesians 2:8,9
LibertyGoddess
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:13pmSquid, take it a step further. How can you tell if you have his grace? By your works. You will be moved to do good things. A serial killer cannot claim Christ while he his committing his acts.
Yes, Athiests can do good works without a belief in Christ, because we were all born with the light of Christ in us. We have free agency. This life was never intended for us all to be of the same religion, comfortable and at peace. That is what heaven is for. In the meantime, let people have their own faith. God is found wherever there is faith. Not just in Evangelical or Protestant Churches. Your arrogance is astounding.
While we are at it. I wish Christians would stick to the real meaning of Salvation. In Hebrew it means literally “saved from the grave”. All men were guaranteed to be resurrected because of the power of the atonment. It is by grace that we are saved to live eternal life with God. Your good works will come in handy if you want an eternal life with God, otherwise you will be condemned to a lower kingdom. (Read Revelations, 3 Degrees of Glory).
Report Post »SquidVetOhio
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:00pm@LIBERTYGODDESS
I agree that like in James the Bible say “without works, our faith is dead”. A christian with the Holy Spirit living in them could not be a serial killer. However, a serial killer that truly repents and accepts Christ can become a christian.
As far as the degrees of Heaven, I’m not sure I agree with that. I do believe there are rewards given (i.e. the Bible mentions the different crowns and the 24 elders that are seated around the Lamb in Revelations) but Paul says “There is no judgement to them in Christ, no comdemnation”. Some christians will be rewarded with greater responsiblity as “we will rule and reign with Him” and some lesser according to our obedience after conversion.
I also believe there is “rewards” in hell too. The Bible mentions darkness and then outer darkness.
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:35amWhether or not you agree with Penn, he’s a class act. If only opposing sides of all types could act this way when discussing belief systems.
Report Post »DMG8487
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:55amAh, yes – a “Class Act” who advocates the decriminalization of all drugs in our society and who continues to speak out on subjects he clearly does not understand like real Christianity. How about we take a long look at societies in history that bought into this way of thinking and have thrived? Oh, you say there are none that have been successful? Really? I’m shocked! Wonder why that is?…
Report Post »4GODUSAANDISRAEL
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:56amAgreed
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:10pm@ dmg8487
Perhaps you need a course in remedial reading comprehension.
Report Post »I never stated there were no societies who in history thrived or did not thrive for any reason. In fact, all I stated was that Penn is a class act in that people should learn to argue/debate as he has without the hatred and animosity.
DMG8487
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:39pmReally? You want to go down the road of petty insults to me here after trying to tell everyone how we should all be a class act like Penn and behave as he did with civility.
How hypocritical.
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:08pm@ dmg8487
Not trying to insult you … merely pointing out the fact that you need to read what I stated that your responded to. Setting up strawmen so you can knock them down is not civil.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:10pmDMG8487
There is a legitimate case made for decriminalization.
There is also a legitimate case made to not decriminalize drugs. Off hand China’s experience with opium comes to mind.
Report Post »cgnick
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 1:44am@ JHRUSKEY: Well stated!
Taken from the article: “While many believers may dislike some of Jillette’s comments on the issue of faith, he was free from any malice or rude intent during our discussion.”
Penn is a man who truly respects the constitution and the first amendment. Americans are free to have their religious beliefs, whatever they may be. The same goes the other way. For those who choose to have no religion, their beliefs should be respected as well.
Report Post »DMG8487
Posted on June 7, 2012 at 12:03am@JHRUSKY
I did read what you stated and successfully poked a major hole in your argument and it is clear that you cannot take any form of criticism since you have once again decided to try and insult me again by claiming that pointing out a hole in your argument is somehow not civil. This is the last post I will ever have for you because you clearly do not understand the meaning of the words you are using.
@WALKABOUT
Report Post »DMG8487
Posted on June 7, 2012 at 12:09am@WALKABOUT
I’m confused – why did you post? What case can be made for decriminalization that has been successful? You obviously cited a case against pretty easily so I am not sure what you point was.
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 7, 2012 at 9:29pm@ dmg8487
Actually, you did not poke a hole in my statement … you only setup a strawman and then proceeded to knock it down. However, if you truly believe you successfully poked a hole in my statement and if that makes you feel better, I am happy for you.
Report Post »kswatchman
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:34amNice to see those that disagree not being disagreeable! Could use much more of this in the world today!
Report Post »Patrick74
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:34amFirst, this worldview makes no sense. An atheist, *from a Christian perspective*, can ACT moral, but can’t BE moral. From *an atheist worldview*, there can be no such thing as morality. Thus, Jillette doesn’t even seem to understand the issue fully. He seems to want to adopt a Christian worldview but without God. Sorry, doesn’t work that way.
Second – um, yeah, atheists have acted more immorally. I’d say Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, North Korea, et al., have proven that pretty well. I‘d also say there probably aren’t a lot of really believing Christians performing abortions, etc. He’s very selective in what he chooses to call immoral. And what he chooses to call Christian (though no more so than we are, I guess).
Report Post »hidden_lion
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:50amNazi Germany was “christian” with a sprinkling of paganism, not atheist. I understand the point you are trying to make, but it is important to keep the facts straight.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:56amPATRICK — it is nice to see a Christian, who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about, tell me what my view on morality is. Atheists absolutely believe in morality, that these are universal truths. And it is a far more sincere belief.
Report Post »circleDwagons
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:13pm@bruce. there is universal Truth because there is a God and HE created All
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:14pmNazi Germany was nominally Christian. Fascist Italy was Roman Catholic. Communist nations, such as the Soviet Union or North Korea, are not atheist out of any sincere belief in the philosophy, but in order to eradicate competition to the cult of the state. While communists have filled graveyards upon graveyards, none did so in the name of atheism, but in the name of the state.
Christian nations have not been peaceful nor more moral than any other state. Plenty of graveyards have been filled, along with innumerable other immoral acts, in the name of Christianity.
Report Post »Landon410
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:20pmhttp://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/p17.htm
relativism refusted, and athiests are relativist, and relativism is pretty easy to deal with, now getting something to admit they’re wrong is a different story
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:25pmBruce P.
“Nazi Germany was nominally Christian”
Hitler set out to destroy Christianity in Germany. He ruled thru fear. There were numerous mob actions on the street to gain power. The NAZIs also disappeared people in broad daylight. Like then Pope’s cousin. But I am sure that had the indefatigable “Bruce P. had been an 18 year old in NAZI Germany, he would have fought the good fight like a true hero.
You are really a tool.
Bruce P = Arm Chair Hero & moral paragon of virtue.
Report Post »Patrick74
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:47pmOk, good to see others have already attacked the “Christian Nazi Germany” myth. And FASCIST Italy was not Latin (aka, Roman Catholic). It allowed the continued existence of the Latins only as a concession that it knew it could never get rid of them. Mussolini was an atheist.
Atheists can claim to believe in whatever they want, even morality. They lie to themselves. The minute you claim morality exists, you claim that there are absolutes. Absolutes cannot exist in and of themselves – they must exist from some source outside of man. There are not naturalistic explanations for it and, even if there were, it would merely illustrate that morality is not actually an absolute, but a chemical byproduct reaction.
If the absolutes do not transcend individual choice/determination, then they depend on the individual, necessarily being relativistic. Not only that, but your claimed “universal morality” doesn’t exist and, what little is shared, changes over time, again resulting in, NECESSARILY, relativism.
From an atheistic worldview, you can have ethics and mores, but not morality. It is an absolute impossibility.
Report Post »Patrick74
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:55pmBruceP – you have no clue as to the sincerity of anyone’s belief, nor does sincerity of belief equal veracity of that same belief.
Your own rejection of any determination of morality outside of man – that is, an atheist *necessarily* believes that man is the measure of all things, including the determination of any “universal morals” – means that, within your own system of belief, you CANNOT ascribe to any notion of moral universality without being a hypocrite (or an intellectual tyrant).
Report Post »Patrick74
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:08pmBruceP – also, just because a lot of people believe something doesn’t it make it True. Morality, by definition, requires absolutes (Truths), NOT “universals.” At different points in history, the entire earth, for the most part, accepted slavery. It was believed to be acceptable by nearly everyone – one of the very few beliefs one can find that, in history, could be argue to be darn well near universal (as in, believed/practiced by all). Does that make it moral? Why or why not?
That is the problem – your methodology for establishing morality does nothing of the sort. It establishes, as I said elsewhere, mores or ethics, but not morality. Morality, by definition, requires Truths, absolute Rights and Wrongs, not things that are democratically or popularly supported or “known.” (The worst argument one hears from an atheist attempting to justify his opposition to position X, for example, is that “everyone knows.” Both lazy and worthless as an argument/justification).
Report Post »SLOWBIDEN
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:13pm@Bruce P- you speak of universal truths. Or maybe you mean the Laws of the universe. Such laws are logical and take reason to understand. Those Laws were here before humans. If these lLaws take logic and reason to understand than these Laws would have to need reason and logic to be created. Nothingnes has no logic or reason, God does.
Report Post »OhioRifleman
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:32pmI hate to say this, but the apprisal of government religions is skewed in the original post of this thread. Allow me to clarify.
Russia – The State quashed most of the organized religions to allow itself to come to power, and in so doing it became its own religion, following ‘the radiant future’. You may not recognize the State as being a religion, but it fit the absolute breakdown of a religion by the numbers.
China – See Russia, above, and sprinkle in some hints of Taoism, Confucianism, and a lot more jealousy to competing beliefs.
Vietnam – See China.
Cuba – Russia Lite. Some more use of non-State Religion, but for the bulk of the country the State still replaces God.
Nazi Germany – Hijacked Christianity for political purposes, eventually melding into some weird-ass paganism / statism that was hard to properly define. Athiest they certainly were not, those that didn’t believe they were on the fast track to Valhalla considered the State to be their shining jewel.
fascist Italy – A confused mess, much like the rest of 30s and 40s Italy. Whatever the State proclaimed ran a less than 50/50 chance of happening on the ground.
North Korea – Statism trough and through. There were citizens beaten for not worshipping the body of Kim Jong-Il.
et al. – ‘And Others’ DOES NOT apply here – cite names, please, because I do not accept blanket statements.
Thank you.
Report Post »WARRIORSCROWN
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:32pmEveryone has their own moral code they live by so to speak, but that does not make truth at all relative. It just means one can decide for himself what he thinks the truth is.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 2:58pmWALKABOUT — it is telling you must rely on insults instead of a cogent argument. May I post what you said to Yellowfin earlier? It applies to your response to me.
WALKABOUT
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:50pm
Troll or not, you are are labeled. you do not reason.
Now, to answer the points before you started throwing insults; that people were disappeared off the streets and terror used to subject the populace was not something endemic to Nazi Germany. Such tactics have been used by tyrannical governments throughout history, regardless of their religious (or non-religious) beliefs. If we are to take the actions of Nazi Germany (which was not atheist) as an indicator of how atheists behave, why then do you ignore the worst actions of Christians? Why does one side get a pass?
Report Post »reality_check
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 5:02pmCompletely agree with you, Patrick.
Report Post »Bill Wallace
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:34amHe doesn’t want hitting because hitting is wrong? Under whose guidelines?
For the religious, we refer to an eternal set of rules, imposed by God.
For the athiest, those judgment calls of right and wrong become frail. They become even more subjective than to the religious (which has enough subjectivity already).
For the athiest, to claim morality is to claim a human, ever changing morality. What is moral to the “good athiest”? How do you define “good athiest”? What was acceptable under athiestic morality 10 years ago has already changed. Therefore, athiest morality, ever changing, becomes no morality at all.
Report Post »StanO360
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 7:25pmExactly, there can be NO morality without God. You can make up social constructs that mimic “morality” that seem to “benefit” society. But of course that makes no sense, as an atheist, by default we are just animals of no higher value (there are no values, just random nature) than ants.
There are cultures that value lying, stealing, deceiving. Some that will kill a neighboring tribe simply because they are a different tribe (though genetically indistinguishable). Stalin’s atheistic morality was no person was more important than the state (yet with no philosophical justicfication).
If there is no eternal, no judgement, no measuring stick, no value then how is the morality judged? Why is hitting wrong? Animal kids do it, some even kill their siblings to gain food and attention, why would that be wrong in a Godless existence?
Report Post »RJL
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:34amDo you know what the problem is with atheists when they die? They get all dressed up and no place to go….
Report Post »reality_check
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 5:07pmAn atheist and pastor are both sitting in a room, how do you know which one is which?
The atheist is the one preaching.
Report Post »searching for the Truth
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:33amThere is a certain segment of society that these people always appeal to – as long as they are given exposure, the naivete will always fall victim. Wow, can’t believe I was able to type all this without interference. Using sensationalism , foul words, and mysticism as their tools.
Report Post »edcoil
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:33amNo one is in jail for “immoral acts” jail is for criminal acts. Don’t understand his correlation. Just look at the Senator Edwards case – immoral yes, illegal not so much.
I always wonder the cowardliness of Atheists since they only attack Christians and are never criticial and put down muslims.
There are no Atheists in fox holes.
Report Post »jhrusky
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:36amI didn’t see Penn put down anyone … did you?
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:52am“There are no Atheists in fox hole”
After a while I believe this is true.
But atheists & believers should be more like Darwin. Darwin did not believe in “getting the face” of a religious person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Charles_Darwin#Enquiries_about_religious_views
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 6:19pmJHRUSKY — no, he didn’t put a single person down. However, the faith of some people is so fragile that they feel threatened when someone with a different viewpoint expresses their opinion.
Report Post »cgnick
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 1:54am@WALKABOUT
Report Post »The saying, “There are no atheists in a fox hole” is true in some sense. Prayer and hope can be interchanged. Some one in a foxhole is hoping to get out alive. Hope and talking out loud to yourself can be construed as prayer. As an atheist I find myself using the term “oh god” in a tough situation, but it is a learned habit, not some thing that I truly believe in. If I was to go to church and profess myself to god, I would be lying to myself and everyone in that church.
mountainmover101
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:32amHe is right, of sorts. It doesn’t make any diffeence if you believe in God or refuse to believe in Him. Man cannot be moral regardless.
“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9
I appreciate his point of view but he is incorrect. He is NOT an atheist. The Bible says that is impossible. I don’t know who he worships but he worships somethig and not nothing.
Report Post »Patrick74
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:36amYou can’t be moral and be atheist *from an atheist worldview.* That’s the point of “you can’t be atheist and be moral.” NOT that, *from a Christian worldview* they can’t ACT moral. Jillette gets the whole starting premise wrong.
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:36amAnd it must, therefore, be true because it says so, . . . . in a book!
Hardly true, by the way. Not with many people [me included].
Report Post »RLTW
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:45amAtheists are like children rationalizing parental rules in order to make poor decisions.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:04pmPATRICK — no, you are saying “from a Christian viewpoint you can’t be moral,” because you are speaking as a Christian and telling us what YOU think the atheist viewpoint is. I can tell you, as an atheist, you can be moral without god. Morality does not come from religion. It comes from a respect for yourself and your fellow man, a want not be to mere beasts.
Report Post »Patrick74
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:27pmBruceP – and you can’t see the inherent contradiction in your statement. If you aren atheist, you cannot but believe we are anything BUT animals. Maybe more highly evolved, but animals nonetheless.
And what is “higher than animals,” anyway? Who determines it? What are the parameters of your “universals?” Who determines those?
I’m simply saying that if your starting assumption is that there is no God, of any kind, nothing outside of the mechanistic, natural world, then you cannot be moral since you cannot have morality, BY DEFINITION.
You simply keep repeating the same argument: I’m wrong because you say so. Well, let’s assume your worldview – so what if you say so? There is no God, there is no judge, there is nothing but you and me, two evolved animals. Who is right and who is wrong? There is no criteria to determine, since you are not and neither am I. As such, in an atheist world, where there is no God of any kind, everything is NECESSARILY relative.
You can talk all you want about what you believe, but it is only what you believe. You can make no appeal to anything greater as an authority than yourself.
Report Post »Bruce P.
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:12pmPATRICK — you are right. We are animals.
However, we have developed the capacity for reason, greater than any animal ever has. That capacity for reasons allows us to see the consequences of our actions, how the affect those around us. That prevents us from being mere beasts. This allows us to be moral, that we do not have to live under a tyranny of savagery.
By YOUR definition of morality one cannot be moral without God, is not only a poor one, but is not a universally agreed upon one. Morality does not need to come from outside but through the observance of your world around you, to see how your actions affect it. It comes from within a person. Without the capacity for reason, one cannot be moral. A small child is not a moral being; it is not until they can reason that they become moral.
Believing that God will punish you if you do not behave in a certain way is not morality. It is fear.
Report Post »mountainmover101
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 3:44pmTo all the responding so called or self proclaimed atheists, there is no such thing. YOU WORSHIP SOMETHING.
Report Post »TomSawyer
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 8:42pmI agree.
Report Post »“No one is good except God alone.” — Jesus Christ (Luke 18:19)
RLTW
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:32amFrom a religious standpoint it’s almost interesting to watch atheists work so hard to find their place in the world, it’s even laughable that Penn knowingly used the foundational 10 commandments as the foundation of his book.
Good job Glenn, at least he had to read it before he attempted to rationalize how to fix something that doesn’t need fixing.
Report Post »RJL
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:30amAn atheist at his funeral when he dies. He gets all dressed up and no place to go…..
Report Post »Redmanblackdog
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:29amWho gives a crap what penn thinks!
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:35amWhat a great way to alienate people and have a society of conflict. Well done.
Report Post »hatchetjob
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:58amDEAVENREYE, You alienate people all of the time.
Report Post »DeavonReye
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:14pmI offer my opinion and accept those who give me theirs. If I don’t agree, I don’t alienate them. I have many christian friends.
Report Post »Walkabout
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 6:25pmDeavonReye
“I offer my opinion and accept those who give me theirs. If I don’t agree, I don’t alienate them. I have many christian friends.”
That is cool. True belief cannot be forced. A person should never attempt it. The attempt makes one less righteous to totally unrighteous.
Report Post »vanman4446
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 9:29pmI’m with you. This guy ought to just shut up and entertain, that is if you like him.
Report Post »vanman4446
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 9:31pmSorry I can’t post the blaze is blocking me again. I’m quitting this site. it’s just not worth it any more. Every time I post they say It’s a duplicate post. which it isn’t
Report Post »chameleonx
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:27amA great article from the Blaze. Both Penn and Teller are great when it comes taking apart different topics and taboos. As an deist I see the world differently from people who are religious and I can put myself in the shoes of other secular people who find it hard living their lives in a more religious world. Stay strong and fight for your rights.
Report Post »AmazingGrace8
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:48amThis part of your post made me SMILE and I will be praying for you. I don’t know what God has in store for you in HIS plans to use all of us for HIS own purpose. Part of your post is very revealing and God KNOWS your heart: “I can put myself in the shoes of other secular people ”who-find-it-hard-living-their-lives” in a MORE religious world.”
Report Post »God Bless!
chameleonx
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:53amTo be honest I do not care if you pray for me or not. Prayer in my opinion does not work. I’m happy living life and achieving my dreams. All will-power.
Report Post »...beckisnuts...
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 1:32pmReligion is based on the supernatural, which simply does not exist. The religious narrative is a false one – basically all religious texts are brimming with lies. Science is like sunlight and some day it will burn away the fog of religion that has blinded humanity from reality for so long. It’s happening already. People used to believe all kinds of things that were false. Reasons for people becoming ill, food spoiling, the seasons, weather etc. They were all attributed to the supernatural. We know better now but there’s still plenty of room for improvement until humanity is completely enlightened.
The article was poorly written. Billy Hallowell continues to pollute his pieces with his own personal prejudices and point of view. Work on that Billy.
Report Post »RJL
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:25amWho cares. Get a hair cut…….
Report Post »GayDem4Beck
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 11:50amSee you can’t argue or debate the issue with any substance, you revert to name calling and stick throwing just like you accuse the leftest of doing. Your just as close minded as the leftest progressives, liberals, socialist and communists that I can’t stand. You need to take a step back and reevaluate your point of views and how you make your arguments, regardless of what side of the fence you stand on.
Report Post »RJL
Posted on June 5, 2012 at 12:50pmWaaa….Waaaaa……Waaaaaa…..read my lips. I don’t care what Jet has to say. What name did I call the left over long haired hippy from the 60, 70, and 80? Hmmmmmm. Dude you need to turn the channel. Can’t we just get along….What’s really important today is “Go Celtics”
Report Post »MRMANN
Posted on June 6, 2012 at 7:00amAnd take a shower
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