Catholics pray for the Pope and support his [evil] decisions. — fixed it for you.
“They may appear “wrong” to us and others outside the Catholic church but we don’t go against the Holy See; it’s part of our doctrine. If the Pope is in error, the Holy Spirit will take care of the error.” ”
Yet that is not how the Bible directs us. “Never admit any charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without favor, doing nothing from partiality.”
Part of church discipline is the membership holding leaders into account.
But you are stuck on things “appearing wrong” because you do not have the Holy Spirit and cannot courageously and confidently discern right from wrong. For you it’s a guessing game left to the Catholic church.
March 24, 2015 at 7:51pm
“How old are you 5?”
You’re confusing your IQ with my age.
[-1] March 24, 2015 at 7:50pm
“You mistake my use of “Tradition” with a capital T not lower case t. Tradition (capital T) in the Catholic church is used to describe things we do because it’s been done for many centuries in the church. Some of these are carry overs from the Jewish faith such as sanctifying objects with incense or holy water. Some are new to the catholic (lower case c) church such as the blessing of palms.”
So you selectively follow Jewish traditions and then invent your own, got it. You might want re-read your Bible and see how much condemnation there was of tradition along with the commandment to keep tradition and also to discern between holy tradition and other traditions.
[-1] March 24, 2015 at 7:43pm
“Café – honest question here… So you have a different interpretation of how the bible has been understood for the first 1500 years of Christianity,”
No, it’s not an honest question. You pretend that “my interpretation,” typically a simple reading of what’s right in front of your face in the Bible, is unique to me and has not occurred in “1,500″ years of Christianity when it’s not a unique or new interpretation.
“If that is true, then I’d have to say Jesus’ plan for salvation sucked, because those millions upon millions didn’t have a chance. That sure sounds like the gates of hell prevailed against Christ’s church,”
You mean that part of the NT that makes it abundantly clear that more people will fail in finding salvation than those who find it?
” “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
” “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ ”
By Jesus’s own claims and your standards His plan “sucked.”.
March 24, 2015 at 7:31pm
Deviants are deviants because they are enabled by people who promote them despite being fully aware of hat deviancy and dismissing that deviancy as just mistakes.
Additionally, you can keep ignoring Scripture which tells you that God DESIGNED men and women to be together and that only a few are exceptional enough to go against that design and others who are not exceptional enough and try will fall into sin.
But hey, it’s just God’s Word and you and the Catholic church know better, right? Just grab a few verses out of context and rationalize and use your worldly (faulty) logic and you can convince yourself of anything. Just keep turning that blind eye to Scripture and it will make perfect sense.
March 24, 2015 at 7:27pm
“You’re right; the Catholic church has made plenty of mistakes in the past and will probably continue to do so in the future.”
Allowing priests to molest children and systematically protecting the predators is not a mistake. Continuing to pretend that it is shows just how bereft of God you Catholics (in this forum) are.
” “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.”
March 24, 2015 at 7:24pm
““I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.”
And there it is right in front of your very own eyes yet your are completely blind to it. Jesus repeatedly says in these verse that HE and not any worldly church is what draws people to Him (His Church). He selects His Bride. He keeps saying He is the door but Catholics keep saying their worldly church is the door.
THIS is what is in store for the Catholic church.
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ ”
So who will enter heaven? Will it be the Catholics who justified sexually immorality as just a mistake and nothing worthy of excommunicating people over and in fact something worthy of promoting people into higher positions within the Catholic church or will it be the independent Christian who read God’s Word, was ordained by the Holy Spirit, and made NO excuses for sin but instead followed Scripture? Which one will be Jesus’s perfect Bride? The one infested with pedophiles or the ones who tolerate no such thing?
March 24, 2015 at 7:15pm
My heart’s already filled. I pray He opens your heart and thus your eyes so you can eventually experience the Holy Spirit and receive gifts so that you can discern and understand instead of putting faith in an obviously worldly church.
March 24, 2015 at 7:13pm
“That is not what the Pope said and even if we except your fabricated # that leaves a half a million good priests. Chances are you’ll never meet one. Humans do bad things. Priests included. Don’t be a hater.”
Don’t be a hater? Funny how you say that while bearing false witness against me. Then you rationalize why 8,000 pedophile priests are perfectly OK within the supposed Bride of Christ because there are so many priests who are not and who cares if the Pope is promoting priests involved in pedophilia because odds are you’ll never meet one just some other person’s kids will be exposed by the Catholic church’s pedophile priests.
Don’t be a hater? My God, how you are so tragically lost.
March 24, 2015 at 7:09pm
“Did the Pope say all molesters were priests? I missed that announcement. Not being facetious. BTW how many priests do you think there are in the Catholic church?”
What would it matter on the number? If the Catholic church knows they exist, are allowed to remain, and are even promoted, it’s one too many. I’ll ask again if you think Mary was perfect and virginal til her death (despite biblical evidence to the contrary) and such was necessary for Jesus to be born of her, how do you ever think that a church riddled with pedophiles (this is but one sin of the priests and you know there are others), how can that church EVER be the Bride of Jesus Christ? By your logic, Mary must be perfect and virginal to have the most Holy Son of God, but an unrepentant whore is totally satisfactory to be a bride for that same Holy Son of God.
It’s amazing how dense you guys are on that faulty logic.
March 24, 2015 at 7:03pm
Verse 8 shows that we don’t spend our efforts crying over the lost but that we instead celebrate that we are once again righteous and holy.
Verses 9 and 10 make it abundantly clear that we have to associate with all kinds of evil people because the world (outside Jesus’ church) is filled with such people and you cannot escape it.
Verse 11 then provides a long list of unrepentant sins that cannot be tolerated and require removal of a “believer.” You would call these “mistakes” but God calls them evil.
Verse 12 makes it clear these standards are only for those within His Church and not those outside.
Finally, verse 13 reinforces that our judgments and punishments are reserved for those in the church alone.
Your selective interpretation basically says, ignore the Word of God and just let the Catholic church do whatever it wishes in contravention to Scripture because “who am I to judge?”
The answer to that is simple.
“The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”
The Catholics in this thread are the unspiritual man. They put their faith in the Catholic church and thus, do not receive the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot discern to judge.
March 24, 2015 at 6:57pm
“You cite 1 Corinthians 5. I presume you mean…”
The title of 1 Cor 5 “Sexual Immorality Defiles the Church”
The first verse identifies it as behavior in the church, that it is worse than what pagans do.
The second shows that instead of being despondent over such a tragedy, the church is arrogant about it. (You see that here where the act is diminished as a simple mistake and proud proclamations about the church is made while the behavior continues.)
Verses 3 and 4 speak to spiritual presence and Paul’s authority from Jesus.
Verse 5 tells YOU and your CHURCH exactly what to do with the sexually immoral man and you’ll notice it has nothing to do with expressing hope for his repentance or trying to convince him of what he did is wrong, or as you put it, a mistake. It says, “you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
Verse 6 Then repeats the condemnation of the church’s pride and speaks to the effect which is keeping such a person in the church causes the entire church to become corrupted despite your claims that your priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes can commit all kinds of evil and cal it a mistake without it having any effect on the church. But again, you put the Catholic church before the Word of God.
Verse 7 repeats that you must remove the leaven (sinful person) from the lump (church) so that you can once again be holy and righteous.
March 24, 2015 at 6:37pm
“We are made up and led by humans so there’s always the possibility of making a mistake.” These aren’t mistakes. These are intentional acts, intentional sins, committed by men who know better. Quit minimizing intentional pedophilia as just a mistake.
“Even the Pope can make mistakes though, when he speaks on dogma or what is our faith, he cannot speak in error because the Holy Spirit won’t allow it to happen.” Though there is no biblical support for this.
“Even with the worst popes in the middle ages, they did not speak in error about what counts: God. They abused their power and led others to sin but they didn’t not change how the Catholic church understands God.” If they led others to sin, they did change how the Catholic church understands God.
“Perhaps it might also help your understanding if you knew excommunication is an act committed by the sinner and just made formal by the church.” Incorrect, it is church discipline. Read the Bible and a dictionary.
“The church wishes the sinner would repent and come back to the receive the grace from God but the church cannot force anyone to do so.” The Bible is perfectly clear as to what is to be done. You Catholics ignore this because you put your faith in Catholicism, ignoring God’s Word. When you do quote the Bible, it’s out of context. It is simply a tool and not Scripture for you. You can keep rationalizing, “they just made mistakes,” but God is clear that it’s more than a mistake.
March 24, 2015 at 6:26pm
“Glad you asked! What I ‘do about it’ is this: I endeavor to find some Word centric subject I can relate to via conversation with a Catholic and teach as much as I can ‘get away with’. Plant seeds of thought if you will. The rest is done in prayer. As I said there isn’t much in a practical sense I can do about anything the RC’s are doing or not doing in Chile. I only have my own back yard to effectively change.”
There is more at stake here than just a Catholic or two. What is at stake is Christianity. When you let Christianity be maligned openly, it is your duty to defend it by being clear what Christianity includes (compassion, love, sincere concern for the welfare of others, etc.) and what it doesn’t include (pedophilia, ignoring the Word, false teachings, etc.).
Jesus talks about us being a light on the hill and that we are not hidden. Taking the approach of, “I’ll just talk to the sinner privately while he brings shame to Christianity” is not being a light on a hill. It’s being a light in a closet and serves little purpose.
[-2] March 23, 2015 at 8:05pm
If you promote a priest who was involved in pedophilia above his peers who weren’t involved in such behavior, you’re not doing what needs to be done and you’re not sending a serious message that you’re treating the matter seriously.
[-1] March 23, 2015 at 8:01pm
Such acts were indirectly referred to earlier Patriot. You may have missed it. They weren’t acknowledged as horrific sins but as “mistakes” like pedophilia and promoting those involved in pedophilia.
[-2] March 23, 2015 at 7:57pm
Yet the tradition mentioned in the Bible was a reference to Jewish tradition, not what the Catholic church came up with.
March 23, 2015 at 7:50pm
You say read it then paraphrase it out of its context. You now to try and justify it by those rare exceptions allowed to be married in the church while ignoring that by policy, any unwed priest is barred from ever marrying. And there’s much more on the subject beyond just this one chapter that shows the Catholic church’s policy is unbiblical like the verse that says bishops are to have but one wife. Not no wives…one wife.
March 23, 2015 at 7:46pm
“If you read the early church fathers you would KNOW your statement is false.”
“Please put down the book of moreman and read the bible. I will keep you in my prayers as you search for truth.”
The Book of Mormon is no worse than your “early church fathers”. You can’t stand on the Bible alone and have to go extrabiblical to justify your church just as Mormons do.
[-1] March 23, 2015 at 7:41pm
You’re desperate Freun.
“Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
YOU, not the church. Read what it says.
Whether you settle the matter yourself or with 2 or 3 others or with the church, things are bound or loosed.