Posted on October 23, 2012 at 12:48pm
Yes, you can. It’s just a matter of the group electing you. What’s your point?
Report Post »
The point, if everyone is playing by the same rules I don’t see a problem at this time. But I wonder though, if, for example an atheist runs for president of a Christian club and is not elected can/will he/she turn around and sue the organization for discrimination.
October 23, 2012 at 10:29am
So, as a believer does that mean that the Atheist group must give me a chance to be the president of their clud, or how about GLBT, I am against gay marriage can I lead there club. What about, say Muslims, I sure they would have no problem letting a Christian leading their club.
Yes, you can. It's just a matter of the group electing you. What's your point?
October 4, 2012 at 5:21pm
Never said you could not have a purpose, meaning or a since of value, but I used the “ultimate” purpose, meaning, and value. There is evidence that makes the existence of God more probable than not. There is the Cosmology, the teleological and the moral argument just to name three.
There MAY be more conceptual models, . . .and they are fun to think about. But a purely silent/hidden god makes it impossible for you to really test any hypothesis. I'm not a strong atheist. I do not disregard the possibility of "the supernatural". I hope to find some sort of "evidence" that will be compelling for me, . . .but until that day, I have no other choice but to be exactly as I am right now. It is the only honest stance I can take.
October 4, 2012 at 3:05pm
What does the atheist tell them? This is all there is. Your life has no ultimate value, meaning or purpose. That religion only tells you were made in image of God, that you are here for a purpose, that you have value, you life does have meaning.
Sorry, but I don't need "a god" to have purpose and meaning in my life. I don't know where you get that "ONLY a religious person can have meaning".
@DEAVON - Absolutely an atheist's life can have meaning and purpose, but it is a subjective one at best, and ultimately (per atheist ideology) meaningless. When all is destroyed in the heat death of the universe, your life will have ultimately meant nothing. There is no legacy for the atheist, as all their contributions to the naturalistic world are destined to be eradicated.
All of that aside, the urgent question is whether or not there is any objective value or greater benefit in this atheistic meaning and purpose? On atheism, in which meaning and purpose are nothing more than subjective traits, a serial killer's life has meaning and purpose.
The universe never promises anything beyond this life. I won't be so arrogant as to assume that it does. I truly understand the reason why people NEED to have "something else after death". It is scary. But rest assured, you'll never know that you are.
@DEAVON - Your response was a pointless post that doesn't address the question at hand. On atheism, how is purpose and meaning anything more than a subjective personal preference? Is there then any real greater benefit or good to this purpose and meaning? What of good? On atheism, is this too just a subjective personal standard?
You do not understand atheism at all. An atheist's life has just as much value, meaning and purpose as any believer's life. In fact, I'd say we value it even more because most of us do believe that this is all we get. We make the most of it. We don't need a fairy tale to define our existence or give it purpose.
So because we disagree with you, our life's meaning is "subjective, at best and ultimately meaningless?" What an arrogant and presumptious prick you are! Tell my wife and my kids that my life has been meaningless, that their experiences with me have been for nothing and meaningless. Tell the two friends I've talked out of suicide, or the 3 marriages I helped to save that my life was ultimately meaningless. What a fantastic representative of your Christ you are! According to you, God made me, and loved me so much that He sent Jesus to be tortured and murdered so I could be cleared of the guilt of sin that God created, God propagated and allowed to happen, and that I might escape hell. Your God loved me enough and did not demand my love in return. I could choose to love him or not, right? But you will discount my life (that your boss created) as WORTHLESS?
Seriously, Christians!! The lot of you do more to discredit and shame Christianity than any atheist ever could!
Good post, Chris.
Thank you... When I was in church, I knew people (more than any church would like to admit) that were precisely like these people here: hateful, spiteful, arrogant, mean-spirited, vengeful... Then I wondered about that... Why are so many Christians like that? Then I reread the OT and was like, "Oh yea. Duh."
Ha!! Indeed! :-)
You're right about atheism. Ultimately, at some time in the future it won't matter. So we should just kill ourselves? Give up? Not when we can experience life to the fullest, without wasting our one shot on religion every week. We still experience everything you do, we can enjoy life while we have it. We can love, have sex, have children, make a legacy for ourselves. Atheist, Christian, whatever, in 100 years you'll probably be forgotten on earth unless you did something really exceptional. Christians aren't really concerned about that.
And just because a concept gives a false meaning to life, doesn't mean you should believe in it.
@CHRIS - Hi! Outside of being arrogant (and I was arrogant back when I was a hard agnostic, so my faith has nothing to do with it), I've displayed none of the traits you list here. Even if I had, it would be irrelevant; either you don't understand the argument being made, or simply have poor reading comprehension. Also, the emotional appeals do little for your argument.
A lack of objective meaning for the atheist has nothing to do with agreeing with me; it's simply true. For the atheist, the meaning in your life is entirely subjective because you don't believe that values, good, evil, purpose, is held in any kind of external objective source. It is simply a matter of personal preference. On atheism, a serial killer's life has purpose and value, even if only to him. He's not held to any sort of objective standard, moral or otherwise.
On atheism, our lives are ultimately meaningless. We will die, our children will die, their children will die, and any material contribution we made will be destroyed in the heat death of the universe. While it is true that we can find meaning in the here and now, it's simply subjective meaning and is still ultimately pointless.
Finally, I didn't state that anyone's life was worthless. Nor did I state that someone's life is pointless because they are an atheist. My ideology is the antithesis of those ideas. However, if atheist ideology is true (and it isn't), all of life is ultimately meaningless for the reasons listed above.
@CHATIKH - This is a series of poorly developed comments and pointless rhetoric. If you are going to respond, respond to the specific point being made and save the mock incredulity.
On atheism, how does your life have objective meaning and purpose? How do you even define "good" in stating that you've lived a good life? The only way is by utilizing a completely subjective criteria.
By atheist criteria, which is inherently subjective, a serial killer will have lived a meaningful, purposeful, and even good, life. They probably even left a legacy of some kind...
Speaking of, if creating a legacy is paramount to atheist meaning, how do you reconcile that with the fact everything is going to eventually be destroyed? Try not to get too emotional in your response, we are all just biological material, after all...
Let me try this again... And I'll ask you for some clarification.
We are destined for a universal heat death, as you call it, where the sun will eventually consume the solar system (if I remember the theory correctly). This is believed to be our future tens of millions of years from now, or roughy 500 to 5,000 times as many years as all of recorded human history. in the last 60 years, or 1% of recorded human history, we have harnessed the power of the atom, put a man on the moon, and put more computing power in a handheld device than there was in space shuttles through the early 80s. They are working on star trek style impulse engines as we speak, and we are finding more and more worlds within habitable regions of their solar systems that could potentially support life.
But I digress...
Are you equating atheism and your concept of it with nihilism?
Why is it that theism is the only means by which life obtains objective meaning? You didn't make that precise argument, but your posts make it plausible to assume you believe this. I thought I'd ask before moving forward.
The greatest questions of life; how did we get here, what is our purpose or meaning for our existence can only be answered subjectively, no? What you believe as answers to these questions is true for you, but not necessarily factual. Same goes for me. But I don't see life as ultimately meaningless without God.
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about only our solar system, but the entire universe. Per the second law of thermodynamics, it's very likely that someday the entire universe will diminish into a state of zero thermodynamic energy and can no longer process its own material or support life. Everything will die.
I'm not equating atheism with nihilism, though the implication could be made. The difference is that nihilism denies that moral truths exist at all, what I'm taking about is objective moral truths. The thing lacking from atheistic morality is an explanatorily adequate basis for objective moral values.
In other words, on atheism...why is rape wrong? Why isn't being a serial rapist a purposeful and meaningful life? Who's to say a serial rapist hasn't led a "good life". It' all subjective, no?
As for your last paragraph, of course you don't see your life as meaningless...nor should you. Humans are predisposed to find some kind of purpose, and I'm sure you are a great guy with a great family, and more power to you for it. However, if God does not exist (per your ideology) there is no ultimate significance to anything we do. Life is absurd. Mankind is simply a doomed race in a dying universe...because we end as nothing, we are nothing.
Thank you for your kind words. I likewise am pretty sure you are a great person with a family and friends who love you and are very grateful for you.
I'm afraid my response must wait a little while longer. But I do plan to respond.
So the quality of life the serial rapist has led is irrelevant. He has aggressed against others and infringed on their right to their property. He should be forced to make restitution, or be completely ostracized from society.
There is a lot of ontological discussion regarding morality, truth and moral truths. That you claim atheistic morality is objective and proffers no explanitorily adequate basis for objective moral values lends more to your bias toward theism as opposed to an objective examination of the theses behind morality from the atheistic perspective. Moreover, the assetion you make is, and can best be quantified, in my opinion, that only God or belief in Him can validate the value, worth or purpose of life. If it's true for you, then it is true for you... but that it isn't true for me, or that the only way to prove you are correct is to die and find out whether its heaven, hell, or the big dirt nap, means that your assessment and statement is as subjective as you claim atheistic morality is... isn't it?
September 22, 2012 at 11:03pm
“Maher joked that atheist beliefs would solve a lot of the problems. I am not sure about that? The last few atheist nation did not do so well specially for the people. Lenin/Stalin, what 40 or more million people just disappeared , Mao was reported to have said “we have some many people so what if we(no one knows just how many people again just disappeared) lose a few. And there was that guy named Pol pot that reduced his population by 2 million, just saying and I know not ever atheist thinks that/this way. Since-some- atheist believe we have no ultimate value, purpose, are meaning. Peter Hitchens(brother of the late Christopher Hitchens ) I would rather be a atheist in a Christian country than an atheistic one.
September 20, 2012 at 4:32pm
Gays are for marriage equality, really? just ask them, is ok if Mormons(Muslims) can have more than one wife? And what about bi- sexuals do they get to marry on of each. How about the “Man boy” group, they want to marry young boys. Then there are those who believe in intergenerational marriage? And let us not forget those who want to marry their pet, is that ok. Then listen to the intolerance.
Make sense. That's all we ask.
These are the raving of an 8th grader.
Voiceofstupidity - And here you retarded Marxists claim that marriage is a civil right yet you don't want to allow for polygamy or incest marriages. No wonder nobody takes you morons seriously.
Even 8th graders are smarter than you are.
September 18, 2012 at 1:04pm
I had always wondered why Obama choose Biden given his “gafts”. Then it hit me, maybe it was Obama’s way of looking(defining) supeiror to “white” males.
September 17, 2012 at 2:29pm
I find that people like yourself are quick to say some one hates without even know the person personally. I know Tony personlly and does not “hate” gay people. I could say-without knowing you- that you “hate Christians”. But since I don’t know you personally that would be wrong to say. What I and Tony(I believe in would say) that we as Americans have the right to share our beliefs(as you have the right to share yours) with out being shot at, being call all kind of vile names(and if anyone on our side is doing it, it to is wrong), people having our rights of speech shut down. One of the beauties of the American experienc is that we can(should) be able to debat this issus in a calm and recpectful way.
September 17, 2012 at 2:15pm
I like what Peter Hitchens(brother of the late Christopher Hitchens of New Athiest fame) said that he would rather be an athiest in a Christian nation than a athiestic one. And I would adds “specially if the athiest was once a muslim.”
I'm truly amazed that a reader of Glenn Beck's website is familiar with a rational conservative, not to mention one from another country. Bravo.
September 14, 2012 at 9:02pm
But he is right.
June 25, 2012 at 11:03pm
The old saying that there is nothing new under the sun strikes again. This same idea was debated in the 2nd cent. Even Origen writes that his opponent, Celsus, in c. AD 178, said that he heard from a Jew that “Miriam” had become pregnant by “Pantheras,” a Roman soldier; was divorced by her husband, and bore Jesus in secret. What is next? Jesus got married and moved to France, wait that is Dan Brown.
Yeah, the Roman Soldier is goofy. Granted, there was a Roman garrison in Nazareth. They found the baths.
June 25, 2012 at 8:32pm
He specks of some of the inconsistence within the Gospel, what’s that modern phrase, “Well duh,” I am not saying that there not some problems, but we should expect some inconsistency because we a talking about eyewitness testimony. People giving what “they” saw and “they” heard. It would be same today if several people saw a auto accident. He talks about it would have been better to have started in Roman. Why? Seems that Christianity has done very well.
How do you even begin to demonstrate that the gospels record the testimonies of first hand witnesses?
I thought this was supposed the word of God?
You might think He would have taken better care to protect it.
June 23, 2012 at 11:24pm
“Isn’t it at all interesting to you how every single follower of Jesus DIED for what they beileved and what he taught?” People die for delusions all of the time. Muslims die for their religion. Because they died for it doesn’t lend credence to the claims they made. If I die for Zeus, does Zeus then exist? No.
ModerationsBest made a good point about others dying for the religion or god. And one could probably make the same case for the followers of Jesus many years after his original disciple(apostles) had all but one been martyred. The difference is, they-disciples (apostles) go back to the very city –Jerusalem where 50 days earlier Jesus had been crucified- and declared that “they” themselves have seen the risen Jesus. This what “they” preached, taught, and were willing to sacrifice there on lives for.
June 23, 2012 at 10:53pm
Mormons are the same as Jews, Muslims and Christians, Mormonism is polytheist, Jew, Muslims, and Christians are monotheist. Each do make a claim about Jesus, to the Jews Jesus died, to the Muslims Jesus was taken by Allah before he was Crucified and some else died on the cross. To the Christians Jesus was crucified was buried but rose again. Each make truth claims that are rooted in history. Because they are rooted in history one is able to do his or her on research (historical, archaeology, philosophical, etc) to see if the evidence each claim to have holds up to scrutiny, what is the best explanation. Faith without evidence is illusory, that goes for theist as well as atheist. I believe the evidence for Jesus is strong, that is one reason I follow Jesus of Nazareth but I did my on research pro and con.